CC is all about long-life cars, especially curbside ones, and the US Postal Service Long Live Vehicle (“LLV”) certainly fits that description, given the plans to keep them starting and stopping curbside every 11 seconds (on average) for a total life of thirty years. The creators of the following infographic mailed it to me, and I’m going to forward it to you all, as it’s quite thorough and well done. Via greatbusinessschools.org.
Related reading:
CC 1982 Jeep JD-5 Dispatcher – Still delivering The Mail After Thirty Years
My father-in-law, stepmother-in-law, brother-in-law, and cousin are all postal carriers. I mentioned that an LLV would be a cool daily driver, and my FIL just laughed. They are tough.
On a related note, the Smithsonian has a postal museum in DC, and it’s actually quite nice.
I’ve never driven an LLV, but I’ve seen plenty of them where I live. Makes me wonder why all cars don’t have the steering wheel on the right-hand side of the car. I would think it’d be easier to reach the mailbox without having to get out of the car into the path of traffic.
If steering wheels were on the right, you wouldn’t be able to see when passing.
Getting the mail out of your rural mailbox once a day isn’t usually the most important consideration in a vehicle purchase. Probably not even in the top ten…
Out here in corn and soybean country, our rural carriers use their own cars (or more likely a small SUV)… EV would seem to make sense in the city, but did those numbers factor in the cost of battery & motor replacements? Given the severe service they see, I would expect a drivetrain lifespan well under ten years.
Many years ago, our paper carried a story about rural mail carriers and the story focused on a lady that had been driving a ’74-’77 era Dodge Monaco Royal (the big full-size bruiser) on her appointed rounds. This was after the country had been through OPEC 1 and OPEC 2. On one hand, I could understand using a tough car that was also fairly common in police and some taxi duty. On the other, the gas mileage issue seemed astounding. Considering that rural carriers are still using relatively low mileage vehicles, I’m curous as to how they are compensated for their fuel use. They don’t seem to be incented to worry about gas mileage, so I’m betting they are getting paid for actual expenses. I don’t begrudge them this if this is the case, there is a balance between gas mileage, vehicle carrying capacity, the ability to get through snow, and avoiding excessive repairs.
It also makes you wonder how they are compensated for vehicle maintenance and repairs. A simple standard mileage reimbusement would not do well to cover a transmission replacement or a four-wheel-drive system repair.
Unless it has changed fairly recently rural carriers are paid so much per mile on their route, and they are expected to cover vehicle expenses out of this payment. This would include fuel costs, vehicle insurance and any repairs. Unless I’m mistaken these rural carriers are contractors and are not USPS employees, A friend of mine did this some years back and I remember him saying that you really had to be careful in order to make any money.
Yes in many rural and semi rural areas they are contract mail carriers. The wife of a guy I knew was a contract mail carrier and he kept 3 of the old “Jeep” style vehicles. Two of them were normally functional with the 3rd as a parts vehicle.
There are a few carriers in our area that use the RHD Subarus. Not that they really need the 4wd in our area. Many of them also still have the “Jeep” vehicles.
Given their age (they were discontinued after ’99) there are a surprising number of those RHD Subies are still at work. I first spotted this one last May working a route between the town of Woodruff and the Lac du Flambeau Reservation in northern Wisconsin. Caught up with it on a subsequent visit a few months later and snapped a couple shots…..
One more…
The info-graphic shows that battery replacement will be less than they are currently spending on vehicle maintenance. From what I’ve heard the Iron Duke lasts only 5 years or so. Yeah that is only say 30K. However they get 6 or 7 hours of time per day. They also either idle or are being driven at full throttle a lot of the time, at least based on all the mail carriers we’ve had over the years. The TH180 doesn’t do that well in that kind of use either.
If ever there was a vehicle most ideally suited to be electric, it’s one of these in urban use. The USPS experimented with some over the decades, but battery technology wasn’t there yet. It is now, and ironically, the USPS can’t afford it. Although it does rather seem inevitable.
And I wouldn’t worry about the electric motors wearing out; not given the very mileage they accumulate. And no endless idling, like the gas engine.
The motors used in modern EVs are of the brushless type so they don’t have those to wear out which is why most motors we commonly see fail. The bearings in the motors are the only “wear” parts. The windings unless poorly insulated or subject to excessive heat that melts the insulation should live forever. So yeah I don’t see motor replacement being a common issue. Of course that is assuming that they use a quality built motor and use it within its intended operating range. If the bearings were to wear out it would be possible to replace just them which as long as the motor is designed to do would be relatively cheap.
Just to put a little prospective on this a high percentage of the 2nd gen Prius and 1st gen Escape Hybrid have gone 200K on their original eCVT. By design the traction motor and range motor in those vehicles are spinning any time the vehicle is in motion. Yes they are much lower power motors than would be used in an EV but the relevant thing is that the bearings do not fail in that many miles and it would take 30 or more years for a mail delivery vehicle to cover that many miles. So assuming the use of quality materials and good quality control the motor should last more than the life of the vehicle.
That’s a great graphic, it took awhile to digest it all.
The biggest flaw I see with these in Minnesota is that they are terrible on icy roads. Our carrier is frequently rocking back and forth to get moving in even in a 3 inch snowfall, and that’s on flat ground! I helped push him out of a small drift one time on a day where nobody else seemed to be having much trouble. Can’t help but think that it must make for a very long day. Perhaps the weight of EV batteries in the back would help these out. And a locking differential.
That would be fairly easy to solve with an EV – just add a rear axle with another electric motor for vehicles in those climates.
Our carrier is frequently rocking back and forth to get moving in even in a 3 inch snowfall, and that’s on flat ground!
Part of that problem is the LLV’s front track is narrower than the rear, by a lot. The truck had to overcome the snow’s resistance to make 4 tire tracks, instead of only 2, like about any other vehicle.
I’m not understanding the “vehicle to grid” thing. The vehicles won’t be generating a net surplus. Who are they selling the “excess credits” to? That’s artificial income, in that any “profit” will come out of other areas of government. Just another ridiculous government shell game?
I’m trying to figure out the same thing. I believe that since the 1970’s there is a Federal law that requires utilities to buy power from customers that do some of their own generating. So, if you have a solar system on your house that is generating in excess of your use at certain times, you get credit from the utility, and at night you might be purchasing power from the grid.
I can only figure that post office vehicle yards would have to be outfitted with some sort of electrical generation that might not be in use during the day hours when the vehicles are out – considering that the chart implies that vehicles are only out 6-7 hours a day, possibly starting before sunrise, some areas might still have 10 hours a day to charge their vehicles.
That’s one speculation on my part. The actual explanation would be interesting.
They way it would work is that when the vehicle was plugged in Sat night it would charge. Then Sun when energy demands rise during the day that energy would be released back to the grid. Sun night it would charge for mail delivery use. This of course relies on the power supply to charge them be priced based on the time of day. So for example they buy the electricity at the night rate of 10 cents per kilowatt and then sell it back to the utility at the day rate of say 15 cents per kilowatt.
The credit thing would be that individual units of the govt have been mandated to have 75% of their vehicles be powered by “alternative fuel”. By having higher than 75% ratio of AFVs in their fleet they could sell those credits to other govt agencies. Yes it is basically just a paper swap but that would be able to show the money transferred to their balance sheet and reduce their losses with it.
Would the added discharge and charge cycles wear enough on the batteries to negate some of the potential revenue?
Over the long term, adding some kind of solar charging would seem to have some potential for both reduced grid reliance as well as revenue generation.
Certainly the added cycles would reduce the battery life. The life of a battery in cycle use is rated in the number of charge/discharge cycles. I’m not saying that in the long run such a scheme would have a net positive revenue for the postal service because you would go from 6 cycles per week to 7 cycles per week which is not insignificant. It seems to me that it would likely be revenue negative when the reduction in battery life is factored in.
By the amount the pay-back period is reduced by it would almost seem like they are factoring in the full battery capacity 7 days a week? $2300/yr = $44/week is a lot of revenue, and a lot of kWh.
The LLV the USPS uses in my neighborhood is still sporting it’s 80’s S10 hubcaps, like this Canada Post LLV pictured. I love them as a hint to it’s “parts bin” construction.
I’ve seen a handful with those hubcaps, but I never put two and two together that it was an S10 chassis. I knew the engine was a GM I4 but didn’t know the chassis was not purpose-built…
My question: the infographic seems to imply that just about the entire delivery fleet consists of LLVs and Minivans. What’s the deal with the purpose-built mail trucks seen occasionaly that *are not* LLVs? I know there are some around. Same general shape but slightly bigger, with bigger wheels, and newer-looking.
The LLVs are more reliable than the USPS itself.
Phil L – I don’t know for sure, but since the USPS would be charging the vehicles primarily overnight, they’d be on a Time-of-Use metering system where they pay a lower rate during those hours. If any trucks don’t go out during the day, or don’t use their full charge on their route, they could then sell that energy back into the grid during peak usage hours where the rates are higher and on-demand generation spikes.
Ahh didn’t see Eric’s comment before I replied…
This could be a good application for EVs on some routes, but I really don’t trust their accounting. They treat “government purchasing funds” as found money, when it is really the taxpayers’ money. They speak of selling emissions allowances, as if such things weren’t the definition of robbing Peter to pay Paul while Peter was holding the taxpayers’ wallets. They also present battery replacement cost as the full maintenance cost of LLV EVs, when reality is that EVs eat tires and need more frequent wheel bearing service due to their excess weight. Brakes will wear in spite of regen, just much less so. Also, reducing the speed of vehicle is best accomplished by braking instead of breaking.
A brother of mine applied to be a maintenance technician at the USPS and he told me they tested him to see how long it would take him to do certain repairs on an LLV as part of his job interview. It seems they are very well organized on the subject of LLV’s!
The project that first got my attention drawn to electric vehicles had a charging engine from a 5hp lawnmower running a generator along with batteries. Unlimited range and the biggest consumable part in the drive train was the brushes for the motor and generator. It was a retrofit to an Opel GT that used the transmission and rear end. With series wound motors the transmission is not necessary.
They could retrofit the LLV chassis with this type setup and continue to run most of what they have integrated with new vehicles. Oversimplification, I know. Yet I think it’s true. Wife’s cousin is a rural carrier in Michigan. We talked about it years ago. His approach was two vehicles. He was generally working on one.
They surely do make a recognizable sound…I can always tell when the mail truck is driving by. They all seem to have Goodyear pseudo-snow-tires on the rear around here, and more of a “steer axle” tire on the front, with a less pronounced tread.
A trimatic trans will run 30 years Really, a 1159cc Vauxhall Viva can blow the guts out of one of those rubbish thm180s in normal use how could it last in severe service?
They do not last in severe service they get replaced quite frequently.
I would think a tougher spec trans would have been better or was it a cost per unit based equation.
Just have a feeling that if the USPS goes with an electric fleet, bankruptcy is sure to follow. They simply are not in a financial position to absorb the issues to come with an EV fleet. And really, in a McMansion-like development, there will be hardly any regenerative braking to make a difference; but I sure see issues to come when those salt-laden roads in winter play havoc on the drivetrain.
Gasoline and diesel engine technology has exploded since the Iron Duke. Imagine the savings a small bore VW TDI diesel would yield for the Post Office, not to mention the more modern and sophisticated transmissions.
The TH-180 can be found in my 1973 Opel GT. We can do better then that!
Since I’m not from America, I don’t think I’ve seen them in real life.
But I do remember this vehicle (or a very similar one) from a Seinfeld episode (perhaps more than one episode), driven by Newman, a postal worker.
Darn, I was hoping this would be a story about “re-purposing” these vehicles.
In my area, urban north Florida, mail carriers use these and Dodge Grand Caravans in almost equal numbers. I’ve often speculated about putting a new (sexier?) body on one of these LLVs but now I know how foolish that idea is.
My father delivered mail as a substitute carrier in the 50s, he used the family car….usually a station wagon, to make his rounds on largely unpaved back roads. Hardest part of his job? Folks often failed to mark their mailboxes with a name or number so he wasn’t always sure he was putting the mail in the “correct” mailbox.
My concern on electric vehicle range is that ideal range is not actual range. Lots of Nissan Leafs have had trouble with diminishing range with aging batteries. Additionally, there’s the ‘Cold Rainy Day’ factor, where the driver has the heat, headlights, and wipers going.
I suppose though that for most routes a 20% ‘reserve range’ would be sufficient
I’ve seen a few of these with left side drive. I even tried to buy one from a pawn shop but the guy wouldn’t budge off the price.
I echo Lokki’s concern. In mild, daytime weather, an electric would make perfect sense. But in the northern midwest, carriers are using heat, lights and wipers a lot of the time. Flashers are on almost perpetually, but those could make use of LEDs for low current draw. My carrier often comes down my street after dark.
It makes me wonder if the real low-cost solution would be to have another run of these tooled up and built. A modernized engine and transmission might be necessary, but the rest of the stuff ought to be simple enough to duplicate. Stupid-simple is usually the cheapest solution over the long haul. This is as stupid-simple as we get to see in a vehicle these days.
This is an interesting case. Does “fix as fail” mean the vehicles are not serviced regularly? Otherwise why would it be different than how most vehicles are maintained – eg brake pads replaced once they are worn out, not when half-worn for example.
I wonder if the chassis could be adapted to a fwd drivetrain so you could drop in a Ford/Toyota hybrid setup? How many of the vehicles really need to have the chassis replaced? Surely a cottage-industry product would cost too much, the genius of the original vehicle was the key components came direct from GM.
Here is another point to ponder – if the USPS revenue decline is due to reducing mail volumes, can they operate with fewer vehicles, so that the basket-case LLV’s can be discarded and not replaced? Australia Post is facing similar issues although not with vehicles; they just use normal commercial vans plus motorcycles and pushbikes for street deliveries. Australia Post does have a strong presence in parcel delivery that is increasing thanks to online shopping that is largely countering the letter side – does the USPS?
I used to work on these things, well kind of. I really only changed the oil on them , that’s all they needed. In the late 90s we did an update to them that required new tail lights, LEDs maybe.
First, by some accounts, the Post Office’s financial problems stem from a Congressional edict to prefund their pension fund to a level far beyond what is routine in private industry. In effect, the Post Office was set up to fail.
Second, this seems like an obvious application for a plug in hybrid. If the battery makes it through the day, charge from mains overnight. In the winter with heater, defroster and lights going all the time, the engine will probably be running constantly at an efficient speed to keep the battery up to snuff. Take a Chevy Volt powertrain and start tweaking
Third, Studebaker did it better. Note front and rear track are the same so the truck doesn’t have the problems plowing through snow like the LLV does.
I wondered if someone would bring up the Zip Van. Their biggest disadvantage would be the steel bodies that would not have made it so long in salty climes.
I wondered if someone would bring up the Zip Van.
I was shocked shocked that you didn’t bring it up first
Their biggest disadvantage would be the steel bodies that would not have made it so long in salty climes.
The Jeeps the LLV replaced were not exactly rust proof either
I was going to bring up the Zip van too. Also glad you brought up the setup-to-fail retirement funding edict. Both true.
The vehicles are probably terribly efficient, durable and well designed.
The employees who drive them and deliver my mail are not and need a complete re-design.
If there is any portion of American commerce that needs a complete make over it is the USPS and the employees. The vehicles seem fine; the employees and their union need to all go away.
I drive one of these . They are horribly inefficient and poorly designed . I average 8 mpg and never go over 45 mph. There isn’t a defroster vent in front of the driver,but 3 on the opposite side of the windshield . When new they would get stuck in 2 inches of snow in a parking lot. Now we have 2- 8″x8″xx4 ‘concrete blocks bolted in the back for traction.I’ve heard Grumman got the contract for these as compensation for the cancellation of the F-14,then when the post office stopped buying them,Grumman destroyed the tooling.The smaller distance between the front wheels compared to the rear was supposed to shrink turning radius.
I think that the difference in track width is due to using the stock S10 front end components and a full size width rear axle form greater capacity and stability.
I can’t imagine spending all day going box to box in one of those things in the winter. Hard to believe they ignored such a major shortcoming during all that testing.
It surprised me how bad they are in snow, as I would think the full wagon back end filled with mail and packages would be sufficient weight for traction. But being aluminum with no glass means they are likely a lot lighter in back than they appear. And I never realized the tracks were different widths. Seems obvious now, I just never thought about it before.
I don’t know if they use snow tires (would be uncommon here in OK), but I’ve seen the LLV’s power up the hill with no problem on my street in snow that’s gotten 4×4 pickups stuck.
This is funny, but when I was a young kid, probably five or six, I remember seeing an LLV fly down a hill. Toward the bottom, its huge bumper (in the LITERAL sense, the bumpers on these things aren’t pretty looking but definitely serve their purpose) clipped a parked car and knocked it ten feet forward.
Fortunately, no one was hurt (at least I don’t think so) but it was hilarious. I laughed so hysterically that I cried.
To this day, every time I see an LLV, I laugh a little inside, especially if its driver is in a hurry. These things move quick for having an otherwise anemic four cylinder. I think a diesel inline-4 with a six-speed transmission (perhaps a Mercedes combo) would be a wise drivetrain upgrade for fuel economy and longevity.
Canada Post bought a large number of LLVs as well. While they are experimenting with electrics, they started replacing the LLVs with Ford Transits, which now account for about half of their fleet.
If you build the body and frame strong enough, and keep the mechanicals simple, it is easy to make a vehicle that will last practically forever. UPS uses the same philosophy. The body and frame last forever unless totaled in an accident, and the engine, transmission, and other mechanical parts are easily replaceable. The vehicle is designed to make these parts easily accessible. An engine and trans can be swapped out in one day. Look at the difference between one of these vehicles and civilian pickups and vans. Ever count the rivets on one of these things? They are built like military vehicles.
No UPS makes money so they replace vehicles when they are depreciated to keep the tax deduction. I know they people who own a local wrecking yard/scrap yard and they have the contract for the UPS trucks. Some are actually driven in. The contract prohibits the wrecking yard from selling off parts. They remove the tires and wheels, drain the fluids, remove the battery and radiator and then put them directly in the crusher while the UPS representative watches. UPS does keep wrecked ones around for a while to use as parts vehicles.
Swapping the engine in a step van is a royal pain. I’ve done it dozens of times back when I was a fleet mechanic. It takes a fair amount more time than doing it in a pickup. They are not designed to make it easy the body is built around/on the chassis and they don’t leave a lot of room to get the engine out. The trans is easy though, under 2 hours including warm up to top off the fluid level.
Maybe it was someone else I heard that about. Fed Ex? The only step vans I have ever worked on were smaller ones, 1/2 ton Chevy vans from the mid ’70s. The city fleet department I worked for bought 6 of them from a military auction, for their public housing program as maintenance vehicles. They were former Air Force vans, and were used to shuttle pilots and flight crews out to the runway and back. They had them all painted white, with City of Chandler emblems on them. Despite having very low mileage on them, 2 required new engines. Looked like the oil had never been changed, and they were completely sludged up. We put new Goodwrench engines in them. Yes it was a real pain. But what I remember most was the metal they were made of. The department that bought them wanted ladder racks mounted on the sides. We designed and fabricated the racks. I then proceeded to break about 20 high quality drill bits trying to drill into these things. It was certainly no ordinary metal like trucks and cars are made out of. The VIN plates listed these as specially built government vehicles. I don’t know if there was any difference than civilian vans of the same type or not.
The government (military anyway) learned a long time ago to buy “systems” rather than individual vehicles, planes, etc. They were designed to be immortal, not only easy to work on with guaranteed parts availability, but to be upgradable as well. If only all cars and trucks were built this way. Older ones without electronics almost were. As long as parts remain available, I can keep my ’64 and ’72 Fords going forever. Newer vehicles are designed to be disposable. Use them up, recycle them, and buy a new one.
A bit off topic, but a friend of mine has a 1947 Beechcraft V35 Bonanza aircraft. 1947 was the first year for that model, and while the panel has been upgraded, this 68 year old plane still looks contemporary and in nearly new condition. If it can be done with aircraft, it can be done with cars.
The Fed Ex delivery system is like the USPS is a mix of employes in company owned trucks and contractors in their own vehicles.
They do have standards for what is acceptable for a contractor’s vehicle and they do have to pass periodic inspection by the Fed Ex to be certified for use by contractors.
Fed Ex unlike UPS buys “stock” vehicle configurations for their company owned vehicles. They do send a lot of Sprinters to the wrecking yard and in my area they take them to the same recycling facility as UPS but once it passes the gates it is the wrecking yard’s vehicle to do with what they please.
They send a lot of Sprinters to the wrecking yard because they are not economically viable to fix. The Jasper sales person that used to call on me when my sole customer was the fleet of Step Vans, other walk in trucks and Sprinters. He was the one that told me that they don’t bother fixing the Sprinters due to the high operation cost and the fact that repairs often cost more than the vehicle is worth. My wholesale cost for a Sprinter transmission was about $8K. So he was telling me that if one needed a trans, engine or even a turbo they would send it to the yard. The plus to that is that they get to claim any outstanding depreciation when they sell it for scrap.
For walk in trucks Fed Ex used to use Freightliner MT-45s that used the Cummins 6BT as found in the old Dodge trucks. I don’t know what it would take to get one of those out it would certainly be a serious job. Our fleet had two retired Fed Ex vans in the fleet. Recently I’ve seen a few Isuzu Reach vans for walk ins. I’ve also seen a couple of ProMasters and just last week I saw my first Transit in Fed Ex livery. The area where our warehouse is has several Fed Ex facilites near it. It truely amazes me just how many different buildings they occupy down in the valley. They are strange in that there are several different subsidiaries. Fed Ex home, Fed Ex international and regular old Fed Ex. Because of this I see two different trucks in our neighborhood on the same day. It seems very inefficient.
The old step vans were made of steel and a high grade of hard steel at that and yeah drilling into it was difficult. The newer step vans are aluminum and they do fatigue cracks developing is not unusual in heavy service. They are easy to drill for upfitting though.
I know the vans have changed but back in the eighties I did a service call at the home of a guy that turned out to be in management at the UPS motor pool. All the hoods were flip forward type. All the engines were “big GMC” or “big Ford”. All the trannies were three or four speed manuals. The current USPS vehicle seems basic enough to lend themselves to the system used by UPS.
He described the maintenance system that JYD was talking about including planned swaps of engines and trannies. He said that just about the only way to junk one was to wreck it. The junking security was ever bit as paranoid as EVB described.
The vans have changed now with many normal appearing step vans. At the time (85 or later) he said they still had one from the late forties and many from the fifties. He said nothing internal on any of them was original.
I think the USPS could do the same thing but they won’t. I also know for sure that EV systems can be a fairly simple thing that isn’t nearly so expensive to convert or operate as most of us think. The current vehicle would lend itself to conversion I am sure considering the typical patterns of use. I have no idea what they are going to do but sure would like to have one when they retire them.
This graphic is a shining example of how to get your point across in a fun and informative manner. Bravo to greatbusinessschool for creating it.
It was a smart move to make a common vehicle and drivetrain to keep repair costs down. Not sure electric would be cost effective. Congress has set up UPS to fail as others have stated. Package delivery should be the priority, email is pretty much putting letter delivery on a dead end trail.
I have changed oil and driven these before. The Goodyear 14s on it are usually recaps they had purchased on contract from somewhere and they are pretty dang tall when you put them on a service rack.
The range is really a non-issue, even in colder climates. Rural routes in Minnesota and North Dakota or what-have-you are the exception, not the rule – 96% of LLVs drive less than 40 miles and 91% drive less than 30 miles daily. 80-100 miles in “average” conditions is a typical rating for the current generation of EVs and that’s what I imagine the electrified LLVs would be rated for. Even in a worst case scenario where they’re losing half their charge due to weather, they’re not going to run out of juice.
Diesel makes zero sense for this type of vehicle and type of driving. Not in America, anyway. If they were going to be re-powered with ICEs, they’d be gas. Hybrid drivetrains don’t really make sense either (vs. pure electric) with such short distances being covered.
If they can come up with the money, it’s really a no-brainer. The savings over the long haul are undeniable, the problem is spending all that dough at once up front.
Personally, I still miss the DJ-5s!
Yup EVs would be the way to go. With the loss of range the smart thing to do would be to start them out on the longer routes and when the range starts to fall off cycle them to shorter and shorter routes. Once it can’t handle the shorter routes but in a fresh battery pack and put it back on the longest routes. By staging the re-chassis jobs over a few years they would have a mix of vehicles with battery packs suitable for the longest, shortest and in-between routes.
With the relatively low percentage of in motion time they could probably do something like the Briggs and Stratton hybrid from the 70’s and do a charge depleting hybrid system with a small battery pack. That would be perfect way to dieselize them too.
Thank you very much Paul! It is pieces like this that draw me curbside classic. What a great respite from politics and bad news.
I’m pretty sure that one of these LLV’s is what our rural carrier is driving. This makes me think that not all rural carriers by any means are contractors.
Interesting and enjoyable article .
Now I know why I could never find a junked UPS van with the mighty GM 292 i6 engine ! .
-Nate
I’ve been seeing a lot of LLVs on flatbeds recently
Speaking of ‘ Long Life Vehicles ‘ , to – day I got TWO BOX FULLS of Panther license tags ~ we’re getting rid of every one left in the L.A.P.D. Fleet , too bad .
-Nate
That’s a darned shame. LONG LIVE THE PANTHER ! ! ! !