I grew up a car nut, from a long line of car nuts and I consider myself the world’s leading authority on the GM B Body of 1977-1996. Why is this, you may ask? Well, my family had the unique experience of owning and operating a fleet of taxi cabs. You could say I was raised with cars as part of the blood stream. I have driven every iteration of B Body literally hundreds of thousands of kilometers. So where did you say I’m taking you? B-town; right.
The technical aspects of the B Body have been described many times and I will not go into great detail about them. The impetus for the B Body was the Great Oil Shock of 1973. By this time, the basic Chevrolet had grown into a 4500 lb monster with middling quality to say the least. GM’s own profitability and quality had also taken a pretty big hit, too, and something was needed to address both issues. The solution was typically GM: adapt an existing frame and bolt a new body onto it.
In this case, the 115.9 inch wheelbase of the A body was offered up. When introduced in 1964 it was one of the most sophisticated systems available, with four wheel coil springing and the steering box ahead of the front wheels. The geometry was some of the best in the business and the package drove well. The new body was higher and boxier than the A body so very little interior room was sacrificed, almost none in most dimensions that really mattered. The New Chevrolet of 1977 weighed in at something around 3700 lbs and was an immediate success. People knew that they were onto a good thing.
Finally, some sensibility had gotten into the mainstream North American sedan. The cars drove very well. Even the base suspensions held the road very well and there was no wallow at all. The F-41 Sport Suspension on the Chevrolet was truly a revelation; the cars drove at least as well as any European sedan available at the time. What was more, the cars used thirty percent less fuel than the previous year’s car, drove better and was easier to park to boot. There was a B Body to suit any budget, from a stripper Bel Air to loaded Buick LeSabre, although I can only recall ever seeing one Bel Air that was not sold as a police car.
The 1977-1979 cars were by far the best of the lot. They had the classic V-8/TurboHydramatic 350 pairing. Lock up torque converters? We don’t need such fancy-schmancy things! These cars were all about torque, creamy, velvety torque. The Chevrolet version had a 250 CID six cylinder as standard but I never saw one. About sixty percent of the ones I saw were 305s and the rest 350s. The 305 could move around a lightly optioned Impala just fine, thank you, and the 350 had loads of useful torque. The cars were simple and reliable and all the parts from the A Body bolted right on. This made the new car reliable and the mechanics at the dealerships knew how to fix them without going to school, something mechanics are not terribly fond of in my experience.
Of course there were different versions for each division and the best was the Oldsmobile 88 Royale Brougham. The ones from 1977-1979 could be had with Olds 350s and 403s and after 1980 the 307. Here is the major turning point of the B Body. After 1980, GM was doing everything it could to cheapen the cars out. This had a very negative effect on the Chevrolet versions. Everything that could be made smaller, was. This is particularly evident in the truly horrible THM200 that went in the 305 cars and the smaller rear ends. The cars were so bad that they could not be used for taxis. This is when we switched to Oldsmobiles only.
A loaded Royale was a very nice car to drive in FE3 heavy duty suspension form. The motor, while not especially powerful, made useful torque and cars handled very well. The overdrive four speed gave very good fuel economy on the highway. The interiors were comfortable and durable. The electrical accessories lasted pretty much forever and passengers loved the cars. It appeared that there was enough profit in each car that GM could still make them with some quality.
My first real exposure to a B Body was at the age of fifteen, when my dad factory ordered a 1979 Chevrolet Impala with 350, a/c and F-41 suspension. The car was delivered in March of that year and I had read the owner’s manual a hundred times by the time I got my license in October of 1980! I still remember the car cost $9200, or $28,000 in today’s money. That’s a lot when you consider the car didn’t have any power toys. I still remember going to the dealership and driving it away, a pretty exciting experience for a 15 year old. Soon after, we found the car was a quality disaster. There was a huge dent in the top of the dash and the paint job must have been done by a drunk. The drive train was, however, bulletproof and went over one million kilometers (the motor, anyway!) before the car, by then a taxi, was retired.
My most lasting memory of a B Body was one I bought used for taxi use at a later time. It was a totally Plain Jane 1977 Impala with a 305 and no a/c. One sunny summer day about 1984, my girl and I took a road trip up the east coast of Vancouver Island in it. The car was baby puke brown with tan interior.
What I remember of this car was it was just so honest. Cruising up the Island Highway with the 4/100 air conditioning (four windows down, 100 km/h) on a sunny day with a pretty girl in a Chevy was as close to bliss as I have ever been in my life. The car rode well, handled well and wasn’t bad on fuel. It was as big as a house inside and you could really stretch out on that bench seat and have your honey sittin’ right next to you while you listened to country music on the one speaker AM radio, which is exactly what we did, There were no rattles and squeaks. It was the high point for GM and I knew at the time at the high point of my young life to that moment.
How long could I go on about the B Body GM cars? Well, until all my readers fell asleep. I still think they were the last honest products GM made, a good car for the money and way ahead of their competition. The Ford didn’t drive nearly as well and had awful steering and electrics, not to mention the horrid AOD. The Chrysler was an also ran, not even worth considering.
Then in 1996, GM finally pulled the plug on the B Body. The real end was in 1985 when the last RWD Oldsmobile 88 was made. There hasn’t been a GM car since I have been remotely interested in owning but if I came across a Plain Jane ’77 Impala in good shape, I’d snap it up in a heartbeat. I have the pretty girl, the road is still there and all I need is my Chevy.
(Len Peters is also known hereabouts as Canucknucklehead)
I’ve seen the ’80 cheapening of these mentioned several times in several places. Is there a complete list somewhere of the things that make the ’80 Caprice inferior to the ’79?
I had a ’77 or ’78 (should it bother me this much that I can’t remember any more?) Impala, dark brown. I traded a ’76 Ford pickup with so many different paint colors on it we called it the “Cheetah.” It was a good truck, but not comfortable, and while the Impala was not cool, the pickup was even less so.
My Impala had the (I think) one-year-only horizontal slat grille, which was vaguely sporty looking; the eggcrate and vertical slat grilles of every other year looked more grandpa-y to me. I always thought if you had a black Impala with that horizontal slat grille, some meaty tires, and most trim body color, you’d have yourself a pretty mean lookin’ ride. So did Chevy, apparently, years before and years later with Impala SSs of several distinct vintages.
Mechanically, the car was a brick. I wish I could drive it today back-to-back with my Lincoln, as I am almost certain it rode better than said Lincoln. Never had any mechanical issues at all. I did have th throw a dumbbell weight through the rear door quarter window because I locked my keys in it and had to go RIGHT NOW, but found a spare piece of glazing at a salvage and it was easy to replace even never having had a door apart before. The car was rock solid, and I guess it would have been more memorable had it been less so!
On thing I remember about the Delta 88s was that the rear manual window regulators spun the opposite direction of every other car on the planet. Why was that? I would like to have a really clean 88 with an Olds 350, a 700r4, and whatever suspension came with the big springs and the hangy-down rear sway bar. There’s a guy on Youtube with that exact car but a 350 diesel that he totally redid the RIGHT way, and it is a damn nice car.
My wife and I owned one B-body, a 1987 Caprice Classic wagon with 305, cloth seats and the full gauge package, which we bought in 1991 with 65,000 miles and traded in 1998 with 124,000. It would hold five adults comfortably or seven if a couple jammed themselves into the rear-facing third seat; it held everything we needed for a road trip, or any piece of furniture we needed to move; and would get 21 mpg on the highway. Loaded up with a snow shovel and enough sacks of cat litter or salt in the back, it was an ideal winter car, as it would either clear or punch through most Wisconsin snowdrifts with ease, and carried its own rescue tools in the cargo hold. If it hadn’t been for the rust that started to claim it in the late ’90s (and our ability to afford a second car, and then a replacement), I’d still have it. If I could find another preserved, low-mileage Caprice, I’d probably buy it, now that I’m out of the Rust Belt. Truly GM’s last “greatest hit”.
I had a 77 impala wagon. It became a caprice in 78. I expect the sedans did as well.
I guess I never will understand the whole B body thing. I guess from being an previous H-Body owner, I don’t get how cars that still (as a majority) used carb fed V8s to barely get to 60 in around 10 seconds for the most powerful versions all while returning maybe 16 mpg were all that great. Add in all of the brougham vomit that increasingly got foisted on them year after year, as quality, engine size and transmission life decreased and the appeal goes over my head.
They aren’t “pretty” like most 1960s GM full sized creations. And after 1980 they looked too much alike. Except for the Buicks with their shovel nose.
Say what you wanna say about the C & H front drivers, but I’ll say this. By the last ones you could get ones that did 0-60 in 6.6 seconds while still averaging 25mpg (if not more) in high speed freeway commuting (75mph). Sure you could probably get 25mpg out of a 307 Delta 88, Sure you could cruise at 75mph all day in one, but I dare you to do both in the same car. And lord knows a 4T60-E will outlast that THM200 that I remember Consumer Guide warning used car buyers to avoid for millions of Used GM products.
Or I can remember the burnt out 1980 Impala my uncle had that was dead at 97,000 miles. Or the Brougham Baroque triple puke purple 1984 Ninety Eight he still has. There’s no way that thing is as classy as a 1964 Ninety Eight. I’ll even say a 1964 Nova has more class than that Landau Vinyl festooned beast.
General Motors won the downsizing race in 1977. And started fooling people again by 1980. Maybe General Motors should have kept all the C body versions (Ninety Eight, Electra and Fleetwood *brougham*) But the lesser models (rightly) should have went the more logical, space efficient route. Let’s stop pretending these cars should still be spewing out of the Arlington, TX factory like they did 35 years ago.
Sounds like I need to get on a Bonneville/LeSabre/Eighty Eight H-body piece. And quick.
It made an awesome taxi, cop car, and a basis for the traditional RWD V8 lover/upgrades; sort of a modern ’55-’57 Chevy, and better than the Panther. That’s my best shot at it. But bring on the H-Bodies indeed! I would have a hard time writing about them, having so little experience with them.
Granted, they were great for those purposes. But time and consumer demands march forward. I think the good points of the H bodies, especially get lost in history’s mind because they share the same time in history with a rather revolutionary family orientated Ford: The Taurus (and the Sable). And the fact that Ford wins the first (or multiple) round(s) with forward thinking concepts more often than not (Thunderbird, Falcon, Mustang, Taurus, Explorer).
In the shadow of the B-Bodies and sharing memory space with the Taurus/Sable makes the H-bodies, especially in their original 86-91 guise pale in comparison. Then you look at how the Bonneville was a C&D 10 best pick just like the 1983 Caprice was, or how the LeSabre and Eighty Eight were bringing home J.D. Power Best honors by the turn of the decade. Or how the Coupe version of the later were some of the last graceful GM full size coupes, or the lovely restyle all 3 got for 1992. Or, the fact that (in the Bay Area at least) they’re only 2nd to a W123/W124 Mercedes in favored Beater status.
There’s days I wish I went with my second H body instead of falling back into the W123 cult (there’s another pending piece).
The Bonneville was absolutely saved from the ashes by the H-body redesign.
I’m already working on my write-up for my treasured H-body LeSabre, so stay tuned…
Were the ’85-’90 Electra/Park Ave/98/DeVille/Fleetwood also H-bodies, or were they called C-bodies? I’ve heard some of these, particularly the Buicks, were quality disasters in the first years. But I I like them, a lot. I rode in the 88s and LeSabres years ago, and was impressed by the comfort and space efficiency. I love the styling of the LeSabre T-type and Park Avenues, especially, and I wonder why Chevrolet never got this platform. I would definitely like to see a piece written about these cars — lots of unmined territory!
I believe – someone correct me if wrong – but the H (FWD) were the ‘regular’ cars (88, LeSabre, Bonneville) whilst the C’s were the senior cars with the upright formal roofline (98, Electra, Caddy). I don’t recall that Pontiac ever shipped any FWD C’s… But of course it’s ultimately the same car.
Hi Laurence- Understanding that this conversation is truly asynchronous (8+ years!) but I think you are right. The FWD H/C bodies were really good cars. Even as a BMW (and GM!) guy I don’t particularly like FWD per sé. – but great execution. I never owned one myself but I remember the very first one I rode in (a brand new 1985 Regency) and wheeled a few of the Olds, Buicks, and Caddys along the way. The front-hinged hood on the Buick was particularly cool, a-lá Saab 900. They were really good designs and did GM well. If I could find a T-Type LeSabre I’d buy it in a New York minute… although I’d probably swap for a supercharged 3800. 🤔😉🙌
A sad tale.
I drove one of these only once…as a taxi driver; it was a well-worn 1978. I remember it as competent and unremarkable; and for someone who hated marshmallowy full-size Detroit iron, that was a complement. It felt smaller than it was, yet roomy in the cabin.
Competent. Yes; that’s the word that describes it.
Unfortunately for buyers and for GM, their parts-bin re-engineering so successful that one time, simply encouraged more of the same. The THM200 fiasco is a case in point: Who could NOT have seen that that wouldn’t end well? It was as if designing and building cars was getting in the way of their REAL business, whatever they thought it was. Studebaker writ large.
It is a shame. A shame they couldn’t recognize their own brilliance in that product. A shame they couldn’t even leave the STYLE alone…lowering the hood and pinching the grille; messing the beltline up and giving it two different versions of awkward rooflines, instead of the clean, flowing, natural lines of the original…style doesn’t make the car; but the contrived styling updates bespoke the contrived engineering shortcuts of later models.
Agreed. THM200 was worth less than the metal it cost to build it. 😔🤢
Same suspension layout as the 70s Holdens easily fixed tough and reliable powertrains what happened that stopped GM building proper cars like those models
So according to my understanding here the 1977 Downsized Full Size B/C/D-Bodies were actually based on a modified chassis of the 1973-77 Mid Size A-Bodies like the Chevrolet Chevelle Malibu, El Camino and the Monte Carlo? That was no surprising relevation and Chrysler had also done this to their Dodge Coronet/Monaco/Charger/Magnum quartet to build the replacement for the larger Dodge Royal Monaco in the form of the R-Body called the Dodge St. Regis. I wonder if Ford had also done this to their Gran Torino/Thunderbird/LTD II to form the downsized Ford LTD/Crown Victoria and their slightly larger cousins the Lincoln Town Car/Continental/Mark VI as well? This concept of using an existing chassis to a newer body is not really an ancient concept. One need not go that far that same exact chassis sharing were also done between the 1970.5-81 F-Body Chevrolet Camaro with the X-Body 1975-79 Chevrolet Nova and the K-Bodied 1975-79 Cadillac Seville as well. In addition the H-Bodied 1971-77 Chevrolet Vega with the Monza. Last but not least, the T-Body Chevrolet Chevette with the Buick Opel Isuzu Gemini/I-Mark. The Downsized 1978-88 A/G-Bodies however were based on a new chassis very different from its predecessors perhaps a rear wheel drive chassis versions of the 1979-85 E-Bodies eg. Cadillac Eldorado which were front wheel drive versions.
As far as I know, the Ford Panther chassis was about as clean-sheet a design as they did back then.
In fact, could the Panther be the last BOF American car platform ever designed, in addition to being the last one to leave production?
Like the 59 Popular the last vestige of the 30s still being offered cheap
Yes the 79 Panther was just like the B body in that is borrowed heavily from it’s little sibling, though that platform borrowed heavily from it’s, at the time, bigger sibling. So no it was not a clean sheet design but it was not a direct copy either. The subsequent redesigns of the chassis included more “new” parts than the original 79.
We had a 79 Caprice Classic Landau that came from Nebraska… it was in our family from91-99, it was a sturdy trouper despite having lived a busy life in NE, & CA…
It was comfortable until the Front End Gave Out backing out into the street.. and there it lay in our rather nice neighborhood, broke in half at the curb, sold to “Friend” for 150…
Even as a beater, it had presense on the road, and every other car pulls over for a chevy to pass still.
MY Partner replaced his need for daily transportation with an 88 Celebrity, Bought for $1200@ Auction…that lasted 4-5 years with $ $ help.
To answer the first poster’s question, the 1980 was cheapened out in many areas, but most notably the rear end and the transmission. The 1980 Chevy had a much smaller rear end with correspondingly smaller brakes, which had like 1/3 less area, wore out twice as fast and had a propensity to lock up. The THM200 was a disaster and there were many other cheap-outs like the aforementioned window regulators that went in the wrong direction.
Indeed the B Bodies were based on the 1973 A Body which itself was based on the 1964. The geometry of the 1973 was practically the same as the 1964 and all the front end parts were interchangeable. For the sake of space, I skipped this details because the article was too long.
I have a soft spot for B Bodies because I spent an enormous amount of wheel time with them. The only iteration I have never driven was the Stovebolt Six Chevrolet but I did have the displeasure of driving quite a few V-6 versions which were dreadfully underpowered. Dad got onto a V-6 kick because he thought they would save fuel. They didn’t, in fact they used more since you had to keep the pedal to the proverbial metal all the time to get anywhere. Doing so would cause motor mounts to snap like candy canes. The 4.3 wasn’t as bad but it actually used more fuel than a 5.0 litre so why the hell would anyone bother.
Finally, we never bothered with whales. By the time the supply of Delta 88 Royales had dried up, we were (thankfully) out of the taxi business!
Well, GM did offer the 3.8L turbo in the Lesabre for awhile.
Probably wouldn’t have been a good choice for taxi-duty though.
The ’77-’79s had THM-200s too. These were 3-speeders.
Saskatoon,New Years Eve 1978, my buddys’s grenaded while we were gently trying to rock it out a snow rut. Broke the input shaft even,
Luckily he had an extended warranty that paid for it.
The 80’s up had the THM-2004R, which was the overdrive. Neither unit was known for being very strong.
I remember looking in a repair manual on these cars in a used bookstore. According to it, the 250 Six actually had a 350 series trans-I know for sure the 305 had the THM 200 but I always thought the 350 engine had a 350 trans.
Yes and no, Roger. They had both, depending on where they were assembled. The Canadian cars had mostly Turbo 350s in ’77-’78 and then the 200 was progressively phased in. There seemed to be no rhyme or reason to it, either, but most of the ’77-’78 cars I bought had the 350.
The 200 was so bad we would swap it for a 350 before we even put the cars on the road as taxis. This cost $1000 in 1985, which is $2000 in today’s money. Auto repairs have never been cheap, especially when I was paying less than $2000 for a very clean Impala at the time.
You know, people are dumb. In the mid-80’s, you could pick up beautiful B-Bodies for a song. I bought a 1978 Lesabre Custom in 1984 for $3500 with 60,000 km on it. It was a 350 and was loaded with everything including HD suspension. It was unloved because of high gasoline prices. At the time, a Honda Accord was going for upwards of $15,000. It was my personal driver for three years and so what if it got 15 mpg? The gas was a business expense and it was never going to cost $15,000. I went all over North America in that car and it never stopped once and the a/c would freeze a meat locker.
Even today I can’t understand people spending large sums of money to save gas.For example, my Acura TL uses like $500 a year more in gas than a new, $30,000 Ford Focus. I paid $8,000 for it with 66,000 km on it. The depreciation on said Focus in the first year would be more that what I paid for my TL even before any gasoline was purchased. I know which I would prefer to drive.
But then again, I am not in debt and most people are. Car payments? Ewwwww, not for me!
Could not agree more on fuel “savings” and car payments.
Amen. A fellow BMW nerd (and dear friend) has convinced himself he needs a 535d. I keep telling him he’ll never make back the fuel savings vis-a-vis purchase price… I have repeatedly told him he needs a. 6-speed 535i, but hey – it’s his money. 🤷♂️😳
I disagree, the 73-77 A-body shares only rear trailing arms with the 64-72 A-body. the geometry is different as well due to the taller front spindles, the longer upper A-arms, and longer lower a-arms. Nothing upfront interchanges except the sway bar and steering box, and in the rear, the shock mounts are ahead of the axle instead of behind. Alignment specs might be the same, but all the physics behind that is different.
It has more in common with the 70 1/2 – 81 F-bodies than it does with the 64-72 A-bodies aside from the coil spring rear axle and full frame.
I know this as I’ve restored a 71 Chevelle and was comparing my 77 Chevelle to his, there is far more changes under the skin than apparent. They are almost totally different cars, except for power trains and minor controls, very little is carryover.
Stock for stock (mine isn’t any more, as I’ve upgraded to HD springs and sway bars) a stock 73-96 A/B body will out handle a stock 64-72 A, thanks to better front end geometry, and less likely to drag the door handles on the pavement or wear the sidewalls out on the front tires.
Our 84 Delta 88 slow as it was, could really handle well despite the lame 7.5″ 2.41 rear axle and dinky 9.5″ drum brakes on the rear. It also knocked down 25mpg at 65mph.
Is it me or did the 1980-1990 models rust quicker? I have yet to see a terribly rusty 1977-1979. But the 1980 and up models despite having bulletproof mechanicals seem to be riddled with corrosion issues. I have a choice now between a 1977 & 1985 Caprice both coupes with 305’s and trying to figure out which one would be better. Im all about reliability more than the looks. Which will rust less, which will be all around more mechanically reliable? The 70’s models had 3 speeds w/ 2 barrel carbs while the 80’s had the 4 speeds with 4 barrel carbs. Which was a better tranny and carb set up? Which 305 was better? I look at wikipedia and it leads me that the 80’s versions were better but this forum leads me the other direction. Im looking for daily drivers and want the more “bullet proof” model. Help please. Any input will be appreciated!
For a daily I might pick a 80s over the 70s, but it doesn’t really matter. Overdrive helps with fuel economy and parts seem easier to pull up. Rust devoured rear frame rails on 80s models but rustproofing can mitigate that quite effectively.
Our 1985 Lesabre has survived 31 years so far of winter driving in Ontario, Canada. Our roads heavily salted. The frame and floors still are solid.
It is Krown rust proofed once a year, sometimes twice if it gets dry underneath. It really works.
With OD transmission make sure to flush and change filter regularly. They do fail otherwise! I do it every 30, 000 km. Add a transmission cooler for peace of mind.
Transmission mechanic might echo that.
70s models seem tougher. Had a 77 Caprice with 350 with heavy duty bits. Awesome drive but not a world of difference in terms of reliability over the 85 Lesabre.
So the “1977 B-body on a 73-77 A-body” thing is NOT a myth!
Some Curbside regulars refuted this claim in another article about the then new Caprice Classics of that era.
It is partly a myth. The 1977 B Body had a frame and suspension design that is similar in basic concept and certain details to the ’73-77 A Body, but was not identical. Some suspension components are interchangeable; others not.
It’s not really a big deal. All full size Fords and Mercurys from ’65 on, Lincoln from 1970 on, and all the Ford/Mercury “intermediates” used the same basic frame design and suspension, until they were downsized (Panther).
Why wouldn’t GM use many elements from the A Body chassis? The reality is that it was as good as it got; the classic American BOF RWD chassis had reached its final evolution. There was little to improve from that point forward, until they went unibody/FWD.
Behold: The 1990 Chevrolet Caprice Classic LS Brougham.
The luxury! The spaciousness! The power! The glove box book folio! The door-mounted, asshole-designed seatbelts! Large gas tank! Radio with “seek,” “scan,” and real fake wood on its face! The serpentine belt! The obligatory K-Car jab! Eagle Premiere? Do what!?
Which car is *really* full size?
Lulz, I always forget that the proper pronunciation of Brougham is (Phonetically) Broooooam, not “BRO-HAM”
BRO-HAM is so much more fun to say.
Brougham. (rhymes with chrome)
What, no pictures of the LeSabre?
The family car when I was a teen, bought used in 1982, was a ’77 LeSabre Custom with the Pontiac 301. Not a very strong engine but it was a really nice, reliable car big enough to hold three boys in the back seat with no touching (that was very important….) I learned to drive in it. Still running strong in 1991, when my brother totaled it.
When I was looking for my first car I had my eye on a nice ’79 that my uncle got as a loaner from the dealer when his own car was in the shop, but the parents didn’t approve and I couldn’t swing the price on my own. I think I would have liked it better than the ’82 Century I ended up with shortly thereafter, which was also a nice car in its own fuel-efficient front-wheel-drive way, but it just wasn’t a LeSabre.
I’d still like to see another CC about the A cars. The one about the ’90 coupe was nice, but I want to hear the story from when they were the hot new thing on the market instead of rentalmobiles.
Where is the classic 78 Caddy here. Is that not a B body? I mean why would you leave out the 425 big block powered & 400 turbo tranny? With 10 inch GM rear end. A good off the line cruiser. Not to mention a car that runs like stock 30 years after it was made.
James, the Caddy is a C Body, which is a B Body with a 3″ longer wheelbase. Most of the chassis hardware is interchangeable. My business partner has this exact car and I am fortunate that I can drive it whenever I want. This actually isn’t too often, since I have grown to prefer Japanese luxury sport-sedans as daily drivers!
If I recall correctly the Cadillac Deville/Fleetwood was on a 121.5 inch wheelbase, while the Buick Electra/Olds 98 were on a 119 inch wheelbase.
Both were called C-Body. Later in the 1993-96 Fleetwood Brougham, they were known as D-Bodies, while in the late 70s and 80s the D-Body was the 144.5 inch limousine wheelbase.
Nobody ever accused GM of rhyme or reason.
James: We just had a C-Body Caddy orgy here a week and a half a go. Sorry you missed it. If you go back a couple of pages, you’ll find them.
This is the second or third time I’ve heard of the greatness of the F41 suspension in these beasts. Did they keep that adroitness after the 1980 decontenting?
Yes, the F-41 was available after 1980 but it was rare. In fact, it was always rare. I would wager than less than 2% of the cars had it.
I saw them often in Sask-Whenever I saw one I always checked for the sway bar under the rear end- Could have been the ordering policy of local dealers-When I sold GM in the late 80s,we had a bunch of 1986 9C1Caprices that were ordered by Iraq but not paid for and shipped. (The Iraqui Malibu story all over again, but 5 years later). Unlike the stripped 3-speed stick AC only Malibus,
These were loaded with regular retail Caprice trim, right down to wire wheel covers. They sold out quickly because GM wanted to get rid of them as it was the end of the year they were really dealing on them.
Yup, there were plenty of 9C1s around but not a lot of F-41s, at least not in these parts.
My 1986 Caprice 9C1 was in fact one of the cars that was supposed to go Iraq. One of the best cars I have ever driven, in fact.
Ooohhh, the old TH200…also known as the “metric” transmission IIRC…epic fail for GM. I didn’t know the B-bodies were spared that travesty until 1980. The A’s got them right from their 1978 redesign.
In 1982, my in-laws had a ’78 Grand Am with that tranny, which like every other 200 on the planet, grenaded. AAMCO didn’t waste time with a rebuild, they swapped in a TH350. End of problem.
I don’t know much about the 200-4R except that the one I had in my ’89 Caprice gave no problems. It was hooked to an Olds 307 (with GM’s last-ever Q-jet!) which had no business in a 4,200-lb vehicle w/a 2.93 rear. Swapping the engine/trans out for a 350TPI/TH700-R4 made all the difference…and I picked up 2 MPG because the car could now get out of its own way.
The Turbo 700 was every bit as bad as the old 200s until a major redesign in ’87 that made them virtually bulletproof. I had the newer 700 behind my Tuned Port 350.
I’d driven the early downsized B-bodies back when they were new, so I can concur with GM’s post-1980 decontenting. However by the time the new bathtub bodies arrived in 1991, the drive trains were at least improved from ten years before. I drive a ’91 Caprice wagon now…the 305/TH700 R-4 is still reliable and smooth as silk, even with 150,000-plus on the odometer. The interior appointments are cheap…my ’89 was better in that regard but it was a loaded Classic and my current one just a base Caprice.
I’m just glad a cult following has grown up around them so even while the miles rack up, the KBB value remains about the same.
I’m very, very sorry, but as much as I liked the first-year 1977 Impala coupes with that gorgeous wrap-around backlite, I felt as good as these cars actually were, the design left me cold when I saw a four-door model – no “soul” at all – I’ll not mention the obvious flaw for back seat passengers. I’ve ridden in several of these and actually did want one in the 1980’s when we could have used a larger vehicle, but I was an enemy of GM/Chevy at that time and was a solid believer in Chrysler.
For me, I’m rather fond of the W-body, it’s served me well, and I don’t give a rip which wheels drive the car, ’cause I am not and have never been a hot-rodder.
That was in the last of the days when the full-size car was intended to be all things to all customers. The hardtop was dead, killed by rollover standards; so the two-door sedan was obviously intended to the the dashing style-leader.
The four-door was going against Ford and Chrysler in the Age of Brougham – the sail-like C-pillars that were universal up to that time. GM tried different rear treatments with its previous-generation intermediates; but the Brougham Machine rolled on; and GM went with the trend.
So, as with so many other cars of that era, there were vastly different themes on the same basic body…same front and rear, but far-different cabins.
FWIW, I always thought the two-door was a slick unit. Sad that it only lasted a few years…it’s one Chevy I wouldn’t have minded having.
(Shoulda gotten it instead of that Chevette….what I saved on gas, was more than made up with the car being a total loss at 30,000 miles, blown motor…)
The wraparound Window in our 79 Caprice Classic in blue was one of her best features. It was Blue Velour though, amazing it lasted over 20 years pretty well.
The 4 doors were Nothing specific, the back seat in the 2 door coupe barely seat 2 comfortably
I despised the B body because it represented everything wrong with American automobiles. The quality issues and badge engineering aside, the thing is no more than a rolling couch.
It is not driving. It is riding along a rotting Mastodon that does not that it has died.
To Toyota and Honda: look long and hard at this vehicle. Do not mock it. You are building the current versions of these monuments to American excess and spoilage.
You have obviously never driven one; even the ones with base suspension drove very well.. The ride was not wallowy at all and the quality in the 1977-79 models was generally good. My family just happened to have a bad one.
I disagree with you about the handling of the B-Body, but I do agree, Toyota and Honda, and to some extent Hyundai, have reproduced this type of vehicle with the Camcordnata–I had a Sonata as a rental recently, and in its good and bad qualities, it reminded me of nothing so much as my old Caprice.
You know, adjusted for inflation, cars are now cheap. A loaded Caprice could go upward of $18,000 in 1986, which is $33,000 in inflation adjusted dollars. An 88 Royale Brougham in 1985 was over $20,000 A new Sonata is around $23,000 (give or take) and it represents quite a lot of content for the money.
Move up to a $33,000 Acura TSX and you will get a much nicer ride, or spring $37,000 for a TL (even less after discounts) and you will get one helluva ride. Cars in fact now represent a much better value than they did thirty years ago.
Is that Canadian or US dollars you’re talking about? 20k seems high for an 88 Royale Brougham. My parents ordered an ’83 Royale Brougham from the factory and I kept the window sticker for years (wish I still had it). The MSRP on that car was $13,257 US with just about every option except cruise control.
I am talking Canadian dollars. Today, one Canadian Dollar is $1.04 US dollars. However, in 1983, it was about $0.80 and we in Canuckistan have always been ripped off on car prices.
” despised the B body because it represented everything wrong with American automobiles.”
No way! You could certainly say that about it’s predecessor, the ’71-’76. But the ’77 B was a yank tank done right, especially the first Chevies and all the BOP variants.
I too drove a cab back in the day and have plenty of experience with these cars, as well as with the previous gen A-bodies they were based upon. Excellent driving cars for their size, and the very soul of reliability. In fact what they cost in fuel they more than make up for being so reliable and affordable.
My fave was a 1985 Parisienne with the full brougham treatment (fender skirts, opera lights, vinyl roof) and the 350. Really sweet — comfy as a Barcalounger and surprisingly light and tight on its feet. The dash had full instrumentation, unlike the Chevy version. I cried when that car was totaled…
I saw the first one come down the Oshawa B line in Aug 76. We made the last B Caprice in Nov 84. At one point.. mid 78? we were one of six plants running B cars. With all running 2 shifts 6 days a week.
If my memory is right we run.. B Chev Bellair Impala,Caprice US, and Canadian. also B Pontiac, Parisienne, Laurention, and US Pontiac,with Pontiac Engines,Bonneville,Catilina. Every 5th car was a wagon.
The stovebolts were indeed rare, mostly going to South America. The 3.8 Chev were more common,with Pontiac getting the Buick 3.8.
I was a final assembly line worker when the first B came down the line,and a Groupleader {the highest rank an hourly worker could get} when the last one cleared my group.
The different engine configurations, and emmision devices were an assembly nightmare. Remember..no ECMs in those days, instead we had yards of hoses,wire relays and A.I.R pumps.
American cars had one set of standards, Canadians another one. Then the dreaded California jobs.
The bubble burst in late 81. The #2 plant was running the first 6000 and Celebrity’s. They layed of a shift,and the senior workers “bumped” to our side. Two months later the Truck plant dumped a shift. Another huge bump.
We thought at the time “were fu–d”. Word filtered down that we were going to 90% Cab and Cop car. NYC Cabs, ChP Cruisers, and OPP Cruisers. We made custom painted Cabs and Cruisers for most of North America. We stayed alive,till things turned around in mid 83.
In short the B car will always be part of me.
For the 80 Model we even run the Diesel {nuff said}
There was indeed a different spec for the Canadian cars, which went WAAAAY better than the USA cars. I have driven a ’79 Chevy 350 in both specs and the Canadian one had gobs more power. The cop cars were even better. My personal driver for two years was a 1986 Caprice 9C1, with factory dual exhaust, 350 and no catcon. It had been unmarked, had a full load and had those awful bucket seats. But man-o-man could that car haul-ass and it made fantastic rumbling V-8 noises. It was converted to LPG and since the motor was so hot anyway, no power loss was noticeable. I paid 23.5 cents a litre for LPG so it was a hot, big car for the price or running a Corolla. I remember I paid $4200 for that car at the Crown Assets auction in 1989. Two years later I was t-boned in a blind intersection and that huge cop frame saved my life. But it claimed my hot-rod economy car. I still miss it!
@ canucklehead….We ran that same spec car as a export to Saudia Arabia. An 83 Chevyiac/Parisienne. 350 no cat,no,AIR pump,real dual exhaust, All white with the grey mouse fur seats. Police tires and brakes, F41 pkg.
In a word “sweet”
Management had to keep them locked untill shipping. Everybody wanted to take one for a ride.
Mikey, as I mentioned in another post, I had one, a 1986 and it was the most powerful car I have ever owned. It went like snot, had loads of torque and had a fantastic top end. I would wager at least 250 hp/300 lbs/ft. I wept when it was totaled.
Peters eh? So does your family come from Sask? I know you had mentioned a friend who lives here with the Cadillac.
Nope, I do business in Saskatchewan and my business partner is in Saskatoon and he has the Caddy, along with the most radical Lincoln MK V I’ve ever seen.
I see. Peters is (or can be) a Mennonite name and I know that you had mentioned something before about Saskatchewan so wanted to see if I could connect the dots.
Incidentally, just north of Saskatoon is a large Mennonite enclave around the Rosthern/Martensville/Warman area.
Yup, several of our employees are Mennonites from that area and our factory is in Aberdeen. Excellent people to have working for you.
Salt of the earth. So I married one.
Yup, smart enough to realise smoking and drinking are idiotic, unlike 90% of the population. And people get jealous when teetotalers get ahead. Funny world, isn’t it?
As someone of French Canadian background, I’m sure I have no idea what you’re talking about. 🙂
As a Kentucky boy from Lexington I would propose there is nothing wrong with smoking and drinking apart from the waste of money both sports entail.
And also- that as a Good Christian Man, a proud Kentucky boy, and Air Force NCO and Army Officer…I’m not saying you’re wrong. Haha “Jesus loves you but everybody else thinks your car sucks”
^^ I should update my comments: I’m a proud global citizen and a proud American even if we frequently produce garbage
. The B cars are gold.
But you just can’t beat a B Body GM car.
I have fond memories of these cars, especially a LeSabre that I spent a lot of time in as a little kid…but of course it handled badly and sucked fuel! That’s not the point, the point is that it was tough as nails and ate up mile after mile in roomy smoothness. A “rolling couch,” as bevo puts it, is sometimes exactly what you need, particularly in west Texas.
As a kid I liked the mid-80’s Ford LTD better though, because Dad could set the cruise control at 100 miles per hour. Oh, how cheap gas spoiled us all!
The 77-79 2 door sedan with the wrap around back window and the 78 Olds Holiday 88 are two of those cars that I’d give almost anything for. Silver on Black please!
I remember finding a Holiday 88 at a used car lot back around the time I was ready for my second car (6 months after getting my license! Oops!). Silver/Black with a maroon interior with Buckets, Console and Olds Rallies. I had the dough but Dad wouldn’t have it…
Instead I got an 80 Grand Prix with a Poncho 265 and the T200.
I agree, I would love to find & collect, the rare survivors of these Orphan Makes, I’d prefer a Trofeo, but a Holiday 88 with Buckets would be just as nice.
For Pontiac What would we save? Trans AM?
or Bonneville SSE.
Nice cars and a classic GM story. Popular profitable car: figure out how to cheapen it to make more profit and prop up the sagging parts of the company: sales slow down: cancel car: claim “not enough money” to be made in the segment: lather, rise, repeat: declare bankruptcy. I’m seeing a fair number of new Cruzes on the roads – lets see if GM shoots themselves in the foot again.
The Cruze shows that there is still a sucker born every minute. GM is still the largest advertiser in North America and the Cruze is proof that GM can still sell their junk to blind, illiterate auto-bot GM slappies. When they blow-up, GM can just say, “Well, we know the Cruze was a Piece of Shit, but the new 2015 Chevrolet Zapterflax is a new turning point for GM.” Then the same auto-bot retards will repeat the process.
I am waiting to see what happens to the 1.4 litre turbo engines five years from now, one milli-second after the warranty expires.
I was actually considering buying a lightly used one-Hyundais cost a lot more used-I don’t like Kia, and that leaves Samsung, which are Nissans.
Maybe I’ll take another look at the SM3.
What about a used SM5? They were great cars, practically a Nissan knock-down kit. Who cares about gas mileage when the car costs peanuts?
I’ve written this story before in the Vega page, but here goes again:
In 1981 Dad traded our Vega in on a brown Impala with 267 V8. I was positively salivating on the ride home from the dealership. A V8!!! Wow!!
Sadly Chevrolet forgot to put enough torques in the 267 V8, and with tall highway gearing it was a dog. I was SO disappointed, the Vega had been way more fun to drive and our beater car, an AMC Matador with 258 six was faster and got better mileage.
However, the Impala was anvil reliable and never had any major problems. The worst thing that happened was the foam in the seats totally collapsed so it was like sitting on a layer of potatos on the floor. The Impala was now a literal pain in the butt, it got sold for $150 in 1993.
Here’s where it gets better. My good friend’s father liked to tow trailers, and ordered his 1979 Laurentian (Canadian Pontiac) B body with a 4 barrel 350 and heavy duty suspension. He also had the rearend gearing lowered, and that car was an absolute rocket ship and a joy to drive.
The 267 was the ultimate dog. I had one, only one, a 1980 Caprice. The car was so bad I never bought another Chevy for a taxi. Until the supply ran out, we looked for 1977-79 Impala/Caprices and when that dried up, we used 88 Royale Broughams.
The 1980 Chevrolets were crap. In 1986 GM made an effort to improve the cars and they were in fact much better but they were really no cheaper than the Oldsmobiles and the Olds cars had much nicer interiors.
The first car I can remember my parents owning was a orange caprice from 1980. My dad really liked the way it drove, but with the assistance of Canadian winters it developed a serious rust problem in only about 3 years.
My father had a 1977 Caprice wagon, 305, blue on blue with mouse-fur upholstery. I drove it a couple of times and liked the way it handled; it didn’t feel all that different from my 1980 Firebird Formula in that respect. Unfortunately he had an off-road excursion with it that wouldn’t have been too bad but for the several fence posts he took out.
The omnipresent nature of these cars never convinced me that I should buy one now because I could always find one cheap. My cousin scored a 78 Catilina in the mid 90’s for 500 dollars, and I was impressed with how this old car was tight, quiet and comfortable. The car felt tighter than my Dads 84 Custom Cruiser. The B-bodies always felt like GM was doing what they were good at until they started cheapening things even more.
They were indeed dime-o-dozen and after the first Iraq war, with the spike in gas prices, you could pick up a clean 77-79 B-Body for next to nothing, to give one a good, solid, reliable beater. So what if it got 15 mpg, it cost next to nothing.
Your article brings back fond memories, Len. My dad picked out a new 1977 Impala, light green vinyl roof over dark green paint, at Hallman Chevrolet in downtown Rochester, N.Y., which gave us kids way more backseat room than his 1975 VW Beetle. Replaced it with a 1984 Caprice Wagon with plastiwood siding. Then for a second car bought a bought a 1985 Caprice sedan, silver over silver. One godawful snowy winter day shortly after I got my permit at 16, he said, “let’s go driving — you may as well learn how to drive in a snowstorm.” A good plan for the right kid, I still maintain. I inherited that car in 1993, put on some blackwall tires, and drove it to Pittsburgh for my first job. Still have the job, but not the Caprice, which was stolen by (I assume) professionals, who took to it Cleveland, where it was found stripped of the tires, radiator, and various other parts, and set afire three weeks later. A crying shame.
Dad’s last B-body purchase was a 1989 Caprice Wagon with the third seat. As teenagers, we called it the “Power Barge,” and routinely crammed 11 people in there for around-town Friday night outings. In this car, I once got going too fast on NY-18 down near Olean, N.Y. during a snowstorm, spun it two and half times and ended up in a snowdrift. Lucky not to kill myself, or someone else, and should have known better given my early snow driving lessons. Dad didn’t like the updated “whale wagons” because the rear windows didn’t retract into the tailgate, so once he sold the ’89, he bought a Buick LeSabre.
Thanks for letting share some good memories.
My grandparents bought a new beige ’78 Impala sedan that stayed in the (cheapskate) family as a daily driver until about 1996. It was a no-option bucket of bolts, but it was absolutely unkillable. However, its longevity has since been surpassed by an ’89 Accord LXi thats converted a once staunchly GM extend-family almost exclusively to imports.
I don’t know much about the decontenting for ’80, but I definitely thought the ’77-’79 models were more attractive, except maybe for Olds. I never liked the more formal rooflines and taller decklids, especially on the C-bodies.
We are completely at odds on this one. I think the 1980-1984 C-bodies (through 1992 for the Cadillac) were the most handsome, stately sedans that ever rolled out of Broughamville. And the more upright rear window on the ’80 B-body refresh dragged the lineup out of the ’70s with their steeply slanted rear windows. Upright and formal was in. While I recognize that the ’77 was the true groundbreaker, these cars really did not become attractive until 1980.
I think I always though of myself as a Pontiac or Better Car consumer… My Mother had a 63 Grand Prix & My First car was a 67 Firebird in 1977… The exception to this rule came in 1989 when I traded my 1985 Grand Am for a 1984 CavaLier, Because It was a Convertible and I was in LA. 5 speed be damned.
I guess my point is that If I were to get a car like this, I am much more apt to get a Pontiac Bonneville or Olds 88. Hell why not the Cadillac. Yes I’d get the Cadillac in this raNGE, because by now it would only cost a little more.
I too have had a nest of B/D bodies, my most recent being a `84 Delta 88 with the 3.8 Buick V6. Poor car struggled to do 80 on the freeway, but it was still a blast to drive in the winter.
Oddly enough, my good friend has an old `83 Impala with the 229 V6. We just replaced the water pump on it last month.
My dad forced a few 88’s with the 3.8 on me and the cars were absolute slugs. They also didn’t use any less fuel, either.
The 229 was awful as it didn’t have the staggered throw crankshaft the Buick motor had. Rough, noisy and underpowered.
These cars are workhorses – here in Alabama where rust and emissions testing don’t drive older cars off the roads there are still tons of these square B-Bodies in faithful daily driver service. By the numbers still regularly on the road, I’d say they won the 80’s. They may not have a lot of high-tech features under the hood or be stuffed to the gills with modern safety features but they still very useful cars, especially to the working poor in rural areas like this where a car is the difference between having a job or not.
The great thing about these cars was their simplicity and availability of spare parts. Any one-armed goon with a room-temperature IQ could wrench on one while drunk. All the parts off a ’77 will bolt on a 1990 with no problem and there are loads of cheap jobber parts available. Want to swap your 305? Well, off the the scrap yard; any running small block will mate right up. I would suspect that is the reason so many are still in your parts. I am not sure how good the interiors would look, though!
Yep, basic durability coupled with the ability to be fixed by any shady shadetree mechanics is definitely a factor.
Yeah, interiors are usually rough but some tacky parts-store seat covers or a set of those beaded thingies and you’re good to go.
My aunt is still tooling around NJ at the age of 92 in a 1980 Olds 88 Royale sedan that she bought new in 1979.
.
I had a ride in it a few weeks ago.
Even though we considered these cars to be a model of space-efficiency when new, the car actually feels cramped in comparison to the now enormous exterior dimensions when viewed through 2011 eyes.
It was enjoyable nontheless. Like a burgundy velour-lined time capsule.
It’s great that she still enjoys the car and it has held up marvelously well. Replacement parts are getting to be somewhat rare in this area which translates as expensive.
When I turned 16 my folks had a 78 Pontiac Catalina. It was the Impala to the Bonneville. Thankfully, it did not have the fender skirts. People often commented on its smooth ride. It had a plaque on the dash that said “Radial Tuned Suspension.” 22 MPG on the highway if I recall correctly. You just had to hang on in corners thanks to the pleather bench.
I may have mentioned this before in the B body articles, but my wife and I had a 1977 88 Holiday Coupe, with 403 and FE3 suspension. Great car, built like a tank, (for the times) good on fuel, ran like crazy and hardly cost us any money to keep running. I fell in love with V8 Fox bodies in the mid-80’s and sold it off. Stupid, stupid move.
A company I worked for had a fleet of company cars for certain employees to drive on company business. At that time, they had a passel of the old Impalas (1984) all in dark blue with dog-dish hubcaps. They looked just like the unmarked Impalas that the Pennsylvania State Police used. These were 305 cars, not really zippy, but competent. However, I made it a habit to wear my best dark shirts and my aviator-style sunglasses whenever driving one of those things. People thought that an unmarked “statie” was approaching and would get the hell out of the way. Little else was much more fun for me than clearing all of the traffic out of the left lane of those freeways! Best of all, when other PSP cars (marked and unmarked) would see me, they would wave!
I have other B-body stories, but they would take up too much room here. If I could pop for another one, I’d be looking for a twin to our 77 Delta 88 for sure.
geozinger, you probably have as many, if not more goofy stories than I do!
@Zackman: I should probably write down some of my experiences, but I have no idea if they are really worthy of taking up electrons…
Great write-up again. I could go on about the Fox body 2-door coupes (T-bird, Cougar, VII) like that…
A few words about the Panther and in defense of the AOD. First, the Panther. Well, I do not live and die by the Panthers as so many do. I’ve been in several b-bodies and in enough 80s Panthers to see the exact differences you bring up. What I can say about the Panther is that I am not interested in a lopo 302. Since that’s the only thing they had as stock, it is by default that the b-body wins in torque. Of course, throw a ho 302 in a Panther, and you got the torque. But that requires modding the car, so it’s a moot point. Now, as a BoF, I do find the Panther chassis very competitive and, well we all know they’re rugged. But, a stock b-body Chevy and Olds win against a Vic or a GMarq hands down. There was no b-body equivalent to the Town Car though.
In two words, I agree. 😀
Now, in defense of the AOD. I don’t understand the hate!!! When mated to a torqey ho 302, a 3.27 rear axle, and properly maintaned, there’s really not another trans that I’d rather have. Would you like a WOT rocket launch to 70, with one OD shift awaiting you on the other end of the scream dream? In a very (for the time) competitive 8 seconds, you got it. Do you want a smooth and creamy express ride up to 45, keeping up with the traffic? With some moderate acceleration, a light punch along the way just to let you know it’s doing its job, then finally another light punch you’re there, cruising away.
Does the AOD clunk when crawling in heavy stop and go traffic? Yes. Does its admittedly crude design enable it to last, again, when properly maintaned, for DECADES (plural)? Yes. Is the occasional clunk in the occasional snail crawl mode worth the overall ruggedness? I think so… ! 😀
This is not a knock against the Chevy trans. These are great cars. I just think the AOD is misunderstood, and frequently experienced when mated to lopo engines and then probably in pretty worn out condition (it clunks worst right before it dies). It is a good transmission.
Great write-up! I love your passion for these cars…
Welp, we are both Lincoln guys and all that, but if I could swap my AOD for a 700r4 easily, it would already be so.
I have never had any mechanical trouble from the 3 AODs I or my family have owned, either, but then I am a fluid change fanatic and I know how to adjust the damn TV cable. Still, the blatant superiority of a period GM transmission over a period Ford transmission is simply indisputable, especially if you’re going to compare a 700r4 to an AOD.
No real arguments with you, the aod probably has a bad rap because so many died because of a cheap piece of plastic holding the tv cable breaking and causing no line pressure. Other than they they held up a long time.
there is a equivalent to the town car–it’s the D-body Caddy Fleetwood!
If it weren’t for CAFE regs, we could still buy these type of cars, and there’d be no SUV’s clogging turning lanes and blocking views.
I was fortunate enough a few years ago to buy a clean, low-mileage ’89 Caprice Classic Brougham with the F41 suspension. Holy Cow—-nothing big handles like that one! I wish that I could find another one . . . or two! I greatly prefer RWD w/ decent size and
a frame for protection: I worked too hard to make it this far, and don’t want to die (or worse) from getting T-boned by a drunk or some beanbag on a cell phone.
Did the F41 mandate a different final drive / differential ratio? I know that it came with
different shocks and sway bars. Were the suspension bushings different, too?
As an aside, don’t blame GM for allegedly cheapening these B-bodies after
’79: GM had all they could do to fend off the NATSA / fed gov’t nazis and
still make a profit for their stockholders. Yeah, maybe the post-79s could
not be beaten upon as much because of less sturdy rear ends and stuff; but
GM was under pressure to increase fuel mileage. The average owner would
not beat on these 80s versions as much as a ex-taxi operator.
On another point: Ford’s automatics were not as good as GMs; but the 80s
Linc townies were more reliable than the typical Fleetwood Bro., especially
the late 1980s ones.
I still have my 1979 Impala Wagon as my daily driver, best $1100 I ever spent! She came from southern Colorado (where I guess they dont use salt on the roads!) to Milwaukee, where I picked her up in 2004. She’s not economical by any stretch of the definition, but a more all-around useful vehicle has yet to be built.
A load of 4×8′ plywood will fit in the back, and whatever doesn’t fit in the back travels up top just fine! It came with a high-altitude setup 350/4Bbl TH350, and I let loose a bunch more horsepower by simply bolting on headers and a dual exhaust with X-pipe and dual cats (they still emissions test it here in IL).
Parts are findable on EBay, and I have amassed a bunch of NOS stuff to dress it up when I finally get a chance to start restoring it. Sadly, the road salt has taken its’ toll the past few years, and I have some holes to contend with, but I can’t imagine a more reliable, functional car. I did the Polygraphite suspension rebuild with Bilstein shocks and new springs and the old girl handles like a slot car around town.
I only have a 10 minute commute to work, so the dismal gas mileage doesn’t sting quite so bad. I think the ’79 models had the most aggressive front end styling, and I agree with the other poster that painting the trim to match the body color would make for one sinister-looking B-body!
I was really looking for another 1965 Biscayne wagon when I came across the ’79 Imp, and, since the days of $300 ’65’s is long gone, I settled for the ’79. I didn’t think much of them when they first came out, but time has proven the first generation of the downsized B-body platform to be as rock solid reliable as any car ever built.
My ’65 wagon had the 230 stovebolt I6, and it was adequate to pull the big beast around town, but I would have hated to encounter any steep grades with it! The 350 is up for whatever it is presented with, and that alone makes it worth the extra gas money.
Rumor has it that you can simply unbolt the body from the frame of the 77-90 B’s and bolt them right onto a 91-96 frame, which gives you the better performance and 25mpg economy of the LT engine, so I am keeping an eye out for a Roadmaster or Caprice wagon to donate its’ frame/tank/engine/ABS so that I can really bring my Imp up to date.
Even if I never get that done, I’ll always be glad I made the trek to Milwaukee to have a look at my car, and even more glad that I decided to make it mine. I’ve had a lot of cars over the years (mostly Chevy B-bodys), but my ’79 Impala wagon has been the best!
I am a 25 year old guy from ontario canada and I have always had a fond interest in these cars from a young age, be the movies, my baby sitters hubbys 79 Caprice 2 door that I rode shotgun in!
So I was looking for a new ride and I came across a very rare model that I am sure most of you folks have only heard about!
I found a low km 1978 Bel air 4dr sedan that has only three options and the infamous 250 cid inline six engine! The car sat in a garage unused for like 16 years until a friend of the family who owned it cleaned it up a little and posted in the classifieds. I was in udder when I found it and instantly new how rare it was to find one of these specific models. Paid 2k for it safetied and ready to go. I am a car nut and mechanic buy interest and profession and I have got her quite dialed in! please shed some light on this car cuz I am sure you folks have some info! Thanks and I am glad to see that alot of people have an interest in these great rides!
Um that’s a Canada only model right? (That’s about all I know but that is one sweet looking ride!) Pulled up next a late 70s Impala on the state highway last night, the car was baby blue with dog dishes and dual exhaust. Decal in the back window said “OLD SCHOOL” which was dang right.
Hi there. Yes the Bel Air was only produced in Canada on the new downsized models from 1977-81. I bet most were used hard and thrown away:/ not to mention the salty death they were exposed to! I have added dog dish caps and a a factory style anologe clock to her, I love the simple look of the dog dish caps.
The only options on this car are AM pushbutton radio, full wheel covers and rear blower defroster! I need to paint the steel wheels body matching colour to complete the look! long live the B bodies!
I owned a used ’78 Caprice Calssic Coupe for 4 years in the 80’s when I was 19.
It was blue over silver and a real looker with that curved rear window!. 305, AC, all the power goodies and F41 to boot!
I loved cruising in that car and for a while all of my friends were jealous of it!
That was a great car!
Such a darn shame the B was discontinued after ’96 given that strong fleet sales of the archaic and inferior Ford Crown Vic (a 1991 body atop a 1979 Panther platform) proved the market was there for another 15 years anyway, and the ’96 Caprice/Impala just walks all over a 2010 Crown Vic or Grand Marquis. GM sure could have used the profits from a long-ago-amotitized but still-profitable car like this to the present day.
Drove a ’77 Bonneville for several years.
Is the body of a 1991 Caprice interchangeable with a 1977-1990 chassis?
Just bought a 1990 caprice on a 1978 impala chassis. Can pick it up next saturday.
Why a newer body on an older chassis?
Since cars from 1986 and earlier are roadtax free in Holland (or The Netherlands as other people call it) we are interested in those older cars.
Roadtax is about a 150 dollar a month (!!) and gas is 2.10 dollar per liter (not galon !).
So as for a hobby we like to ride those older cars on Liquid Petrol Gas which is about 1.05 dollar per liter.
Thanks, Barry, Amsterdam, The Netherlands in Europe
just bought a 85 olds delta 88 v6 with 50k best car ive ever owned
I have a 1996 Caprice LT1 350 cu. in , VU4 Sport Suspension, towing package, heavy duty cooling, heat reflective windshield, grey leather interior with 60/40 split front power seats and has had the Police 9C1 bushing package added. I am looking to sell this car as we need to rebuild a pick truck for our farm. Anyone interested in this vehicle call 330-206-4909. It was garage kept until about a year ago.
WHAT is a “heat reflective windshield” ? ?
Great article! Nice to learn more about these cars. I picked up a 1989 Brougham LS last fall to replace my 85 skylark (</3) and am loving it! It has a few issues like intermittent power locks/seats and operating the wiper is like driving a tractor! but she gets the job done. Best $400 I ever spent for sure! Reminds me of being a kid and criusin with my dad in his camino.
These really are great cars, I never really paid much attention to GM’s B-cars until I bought mine 12 years ago. I was 17 and it was my second car, actually bought to be a winter car to spare my daily driver/project ’70 El Camino. What caught my eye the most other than it being a coupe was just how similar it looked to a mid 60’s car with the angular lines. After switching over that December I ended up parking the El Camino and selling it two years later I was so pleased with the Caprice. I came across a companion car a few years after, an ’83 Bonneville to use in bad weather. It too ended up being my main car when the Caprice was parked when it’s 305 detonated itself to death at 190k. After a few years I tired of the Bonneville and switched to an ’83 Olds 98. The G’s are nice cars but just don’t have the feel, ride or the room (especially in the trunk) the B and C cars have. Pontiac trying to pass it off as a full size in ’82 could never have worked in the long run.
Well i do own a 79 caprice 350 cui since 1992 and i know may be it is not
a super car but it is very reliable and i will never sell it , because we have
something like a comen history ( my dauther was almost born in this car ..
Easily the best series of cars GM ever produced. Right up there with Model T’s and VW Beetles. Easy to see why these cars are no longer produced – they’re not disposable throw aways like today’s junk ! Cuts into the profit margin if you know what I mean. I’ve owned about ten or twelve over the years. Today I’m driving a ’94 Buick Roadmaster with 170,000 miles on the clock and it still runs like new. No rattles or squeaks, just SMOOOTH. Leaks oil though. Not to worry. I park it on the street.
Just recently bought my first B body, 1979 Buick LeSabre Palm Beach Edition. Was wondering if anyone knows where to get info on these. It is original with 50000 Kim’s on it
TSS
Darrell
You are correct in stating that these cars are tough as any ever made! I owned a 77 impala wagon with a 350/350TH from 82 to 99 it was a former taxi and had 180,000 miles on it when I bought it. I put 150,000 more miles on it (half of which was towing a race car trailer) the only thing ever done to the engine was a timing chain at 240,000 and I rebuilt the 350 turbo once (not sure of the miles then). Other than services, tires and a set of air shocks for towing the trailer, that’s all that was done to it! Just like someone else said, everything I needed to haul either fit in it or on the roof rack (including deer from hunting trips). I didn’t own a truck and didn’t need one. Bought it for $1000 in 82 and sold it for $600 in 99! Now I own a 1978 caprice coupe that is a great “old” car.
I realize I’m late to the party with this post, but I used to drive a 1990? Caprice sedan that had been a St. Louis County MO park ranger car…cop suspension, HD cooling, etc, with cloth bench seat and, of all things, a V6…I think it was a 4.3L, but don’t quote me on that. Tough old car, had spotlights on both a-pillars. It came from a county auction for about $1000. The radiator blew up, and we discovered that it was a cop-special/V6-specific piece that was out of production, so one had to be fabricated. Last I heard, a distant relative was still driving that old tank. Great handling for something that size, just not real fast. It did sit up taller than a retail car, I guess the firmer springs had something to do with that.
Hello out there.
I am aware that most of these posts are now over 2 year old but I would like add my 2 cents. I bought my 1978 Chevy Impala in May 1978. I paid $55 extra for a 350 4 barrel.
Taxes included: $8,008. The car has its 36th birthday next month. I continue to drive it in Canadian winters although not as often as I used to. It has 454,000 km on original engine and transmission. It runs like a charm and I plan on getting an emission test done on the car next week.
Hello,
I have had one of these (caprice 1987) now for 15 or so years and it’s been the most cost effective machine I’ve ever owned. First one I ever sat in was a 73 caprice estate wagon (bought new as a family car). BTW does anyone know where the rear defrost relay is on an 1987 caprice? I would sure appreciate it.
G. Neil
I’m happy to see some related Canadian content on the history of this vehicle, found in related articles in Curbeside Classic. (Curbside Classic: 1978 Pontiac Bonneville Brougham – No, Pontiac Didn’t Just Make Firebirds In The ’70s). Canadian Pontiac’s often varied with our large cars, with nameplates such as the entry-level Laurentian and the upscale Parisienne. Here is a photo of a 1986 Parisienne Brougham.
Have owned and driven loads of B-bodies over the past 20 years. There indeed seemed to be a problem with the 1980 models as if quality control, paint and other things were cheapened. After 1981 things seemed to get better. My buddy had a 1982 Caprice coupe with the 267 and 200R-4 with 2.73:1 rear gears and that was a really nice solid long lasting car that served him for 6 years. It was no powerhouse but wasn’t nearly as bad as some here claim. It would get up to 26 on the open road cruising at 65 and was a far better setup than any 229 V6 ever thought of being. My other friend also had an 82 coupe but with the 305 and 200R4 plus F-41 setup and that car felt pretty brisk back in the day and was was light years more fun to drive than his previous Ford LTD II.
The 3.8 V6’s indeed really had no place in these cars just as Chrysler’s 85-90 HP slant six in the R-bodies for 1979-1981. The peanut V8’s were okay if in proper tune but the best engines were the 305’s for the 1980-1990 cars and the 350’s during the 77-79 run. I have fond memories of a family members 1987 Caprice sedan with the 170 HP 305 tied to the 700R-4 overdrive tranny and optional 2.73 rear gears with limited slip and F-41 suspension. That car felt quick and nimble at the time and never once left him stranded.
I am still seeking out a 1978-1981 Delta 88 Holiday or 1979-1981 Bonneville coupe with bucket seats and a 350 V8 as a Summer driver next year. Those are very rare birds to find today.
I met a couple this year at the Oldsmobile Homecoming that had a 1980 Delta 88 Holiday coupe they were wanting to sell. The car was Beautiful!!!
Holy smoke that is a beauty! A set of Olds rallys would make that car perfect. I wonder what engine this car had? Hopefully not the 231 or 260.
My parents bought a new Chevrolet Caprice Classic in 1978. I was 6 years old at the time and still remember how excited I was that we were getting a new car. Loved the “sporty” wheel covers. Had 3-speed auto trans, power windows, power door locks, vinyl roof, nicer FM stereo, pretty much every option for back then except it had only the 305 V8. It was the car I got to drive when I turned 16 in 1988. Got rid of it for an S-10 Blazer shortly afterwards, however. It was a big family sedan and not the type of car that was cool for high school. Except for the burnouts in the high school parking lot. Courtesy of rear wheel drive. I remember that it kept losing wheel covers, which were not always cheap to replace. I also remember spending lots of time along the road where Dad thought the wheel cover might have come off. Back then, they didn’t bother to bolt them on, apparently.
This top-luxury variant of the B-body Caprice was mentioned earlier, but here is a photo of it. Also, it has a very long name: this is the 1990 Chevrolet Caprice Classic Brougham LS sedan. It comes complete with Cadillac-style half-vinyl roof, opera windows (yeay!), hood ornament, whitewall tires, wire wheels and flush headlamps. You might say that it is the younger brother to the earlier (and by then defunct) Buick LeSabre Limited and Oldsmobile 88 Royale Brougham LS.
In reply to the talk about cheapening of the 80s models. I do think there were some things sacrificed after 79, however the 80s models were available with the 8.5″ rear end (my 86 caprice parts car has a 305/700R4/2.93posi 8.5″ even though it’s not a 9c1 or f41 car. 80s Oldsmobile delta’s could have the crappy 7.5″ rear and so could the late 70s Chevy. My friend in south Carolina has a 77 impala his dad bought new. 305/th200/7.5″ rear. Has way over 300k miles. Original th200 was rebuilt at 120k and blew up again at 150k or something like that and was replaced with a th350 that is still working. Axles were replaced in the cheap rear end.
I think the op isn’t aware or some of the possibility of a late 70s car having the th200/7.5″ or the fact that many 80s cars did not have the crappy th200 (my 83 had a th250c) which I swapped for a 2004r from an 89 caprice with only 240k on it for better mileage. I would rather have a 77-79 but I don’t think they were cheapened as much as the original poster believes.
Thanks for posting your website. I’m a big fan of these vehicles.
I’ve had about 35 RWD GM “couches on wheels”. My first was a ’68 Impala.
The main thing I didn’t like about the ’76 downsize was that they never made a hardtop and my dog (and I) really miss that.
I’ve had 3 of the wagons and really miss the electric rear windows.
Other crappers about these vehicles are the rear side windows not going to the bottom, only 1/2 way (at best). The chrome strips that run along the bottoms of the windows are of a design that encourages rust big time. And except for some of the “better” wagons like the Buicks the driver’s power window switch location was awkward to say the least.
But overall I love these cars. On several I used a pre-emissions (the ones with a serial number starting in “7”) Q-jet and installed a TCI kit so you could discard the computer and run the 700R4 analog style, which had the bonus that you could put a switch in so the torque convertor locked up in drive, not just overdrive, which was fantastic on steep hills.
I also hated the rear view mirrors that were glued to the windshield because they fell off a lot. But overall they had super simple yet sophisticated technology done in mainly by the CAFE laws.
Hard to believe that people think they are antique gas guzzlers when you compare their weight to a 2016 Sienna or their gas mileage to a new Tahoe. Man were people conned. There are more overweight gas guzzlers on the road in 2016 than at any other time in history, so much for the energy crisis.
I think they were the best high production cars of all time.
I think GM made the best interiors in the 80s B Bodies, with the Electra (the Lesabre a close 2nd). The pillowtop seat were improved and continued on into the H bodies of the 80s. The colour options and quality fabrics were impressive. Though the 78-79 Lesabre and Electra looked sharper outside and had the silver gauges, the interiors improved much in the 80s.Sure beat anything GM offered in early to mid 70s.
I am running a 1985 Buick Lesabre Collector’s Edition as a daily driver in 2016. The green interior with pillowtop seats is stunning and I really don’t mind the 307. It is very smooth, quiet, and surprisingly efficient.
In my option GM made some amazing interiors in the 80s, lots of character and interesting colour options. Despite the parts bin approach, GM took much effort to add different flavours to the interiors of all brands.
I would like to build an LS powered Olds 98 or Electra Park Avenue.
I had an ’84 Buick Electra sedan for a couple years. I found the seats to be POOR! Most of these GMs had merely two aluminum ‘shells’, one for the bottom cushion and one for the seat back, both covered with very ordinary sponge rubber.
While GM does some things better than Ford, the Panther platforms have far superior seating… with real seat frames and much greater torsional strength in said seat frames… along with superior padding and design. The Panther platforms have much greater overall car strength than a GM B-body: the GMs have torsional shake upon hitting bumps. The FoMoCos do not.
I actually prefery cushy seats to firm.
As for torsional/overall rigidity, when I adjusted all four door strike posts inward on my 1981 Buick Century, I noticed that the car seemed to wallow less, over uneven surfaces, and handled a bit more crisply. It also rolled further down the road between inputs at the gas pedal.
I’m building a resto mod 1984 coupe Deville, not a lowrider like most people do. But I was hoping to delete the vinyl top as it holds in moisture. I was curious to know if anyone can confirm if the rear glass stainless trim is interchangeable between the caprice and the Deville. Comparing pics they look real close if not the same. Any info would be greatly appreciated!
So many owners of the 1977-79 full size Chevrolet Caprice and impala sedan, but no complaints about the interior mainly the condition of the dashboard,well i have to say something about it, because I find it strange for the top of the dashboard to crack while the car still runs, I always thought that your dashboard ONLY do that if you left the car parked in the driveway or backyard and not use it anymore i don’t see that kind of problem happening with the full size Pontiac Bonneville or Catalina, and anyone knows when it comes to repairing a dashboard top, it usually cost $500 and up to get a smooth surface again.