Stephanie and I have been mulling over options for replacing the Forester. It’s fourteen years old, has 170k brutal miles (endless trips less than a mile without a full warm-up), has piston slap and now the head gaskets are finally leaking. In 2000, I knew exactly what I wanted: the Forester. Now? Meh….
We really like the Forester’s compact size, the great visibility, the tall roof, the roomy cargo area, the performance, traction and handling. There’s just nothing out there that’s even similar. Yes, the Subaru Impreza or Crosstrek come fairly close, but the rear cargo compartment and visibility are compromised by the fast back styling. How about a real wagon with a squared-off back?
Stephanie’s current object of consideration is the VW Jetta Sportwagen. Yea; I’ve always wanted a “sportwagen”… Ok, it is a a compact wagon, and there’s a lot to like about the Golf/Jetta, although the 2.5 five cylinder isn’t at the top of the list. It does have a lot of grunt, but fuel economy is at the low end of the pack (23/30). But I’m not finding gobs of enthusiasm.
What else? Mazda CX-5? Umm. Maybe we need to go back in time, and relive the enthusiasm we had for new cars in 1985 or so?
We’ve been giving serious thought to trying to find a well-kept W124 wagon. I’ve never quite gotten over my 300E. But these are going on thirty years old, legendary old-school Benz construction and all.
A Volvo 740 series wagon is the other “classic” under consideration. Either one would cost quite a lot less than a new car, and it’s not like we drive all that much. Stephanie runs some errands, and there’s occasional road trip and weekend outings.
So is there a new car out there we should be more excited about? Or should we just stop trying and embrace a Curbside Classic, and all that entails?
Just my way of thinking, if this is your daily driver and you make a lot of long trips in it, I’d go with something newer. Some of the older models you’ve mentioned are great, and have more character, but will end up costing quite a bit in maintenance.
I personally have never been a huge fan of Subarus. No Subaru has ever really wowed me, especially when it comes to the interiors. I do like the Jetta Sportwagen a lot, but as you mentioned it’s lacking in the performance area.
Obviously it depends on your brand preference, and what you’re comfortable with. I’d seriously give the new Jeep Cherokee a look. I’ve been seeing a lot of them, and think they offer capable versatility.
@ Brendan Saur
Me too, until I took the wheel of a 98 Impreza WRX STi R-type .
Hated the presence of the car, bland, dull grey-ish appearance, the screaming rear spoiler and a dash where you’d see it consisted of parts from the Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi and Honda bins.
Then I turned the ignition jkey and it cam alive roaring,t he four cylinder Turbo Boxer engine, the All Wheel Drive, the first roundabout I took with the car made me almost end up on the luggage rack of a rather fast motorcycle.
Sprints were breathtakingly fast, the thing seemed capable of more things then my Ex 911 Carrera or 911 2.7 ever did or could have done.
Around London (we bought this car in the UK) a new Aston Marton was pushing me, being in a RHD car as a LHD person I asked my mate what to do.
Go back to third and give it some whip he answered, I did; the Aston (believe it or not) could not keep up with the brutal acceleration of the beast.
Got down to normal speed and pulled in, the Aston came alongside and raised his thumb.
For me today the fast Sti versions are my darlings, I have had four of these and I am now restoring and re-building a 1998 spec R-type car (two door coupe) which has been converted to LHD
I’ve fallen in love with its bland dull appearance, its totally bland interior, until I put it on hte ramp, then you’ll see where Subaru spent the money on.
For looks, individualism, charm and sexyness, my daily driver, a red 159 Alfa Diesel suffices.
And if I were Paul I’d have the engine rebuilt, there are many Subaru specialists and an upgrade of the current engine to perform better and use similar or even less fuel does not have to cost a fortune.
Paul, you didn’t mention the current Forester. I know it’s bigger than the old one or the current Impreza, but it’s really quite nice (without being TOO nice). Some friends of mine just bought one… they were harsh skeptics until the test drive, and they fell in love.
From what you’ve shared with us, if the Forester doesn’t work for you, then I think the only thing that would make you happy is a “threefer”: For the price of a new Forester, you could get three near-perfect w124s, three 505s, etc. Between the three of them, you’re (almost) guaranteed to have one working car at all times!
Heck, you could even mix/match… Wouldn’t it be lovely to have a 300E, a 505 SW8, and maybe a 404 just for fun?
It’s gotten a bit bigger than ideal, but it is a nice car.
If I had a short to no commute and lived in rust-free Oregon, I’d be using my ’65 Dart wagon as my daily driver! Well, I would once I got it sorted out; I just bought it a month and a half ago.
I say go old! I’m biased, though, and Brendan has a good point about long trips.
This is primarily Stephanie’s car. She likes to be feel just a wee bit more pampered than a ’65 Dart wagon might be able to muster. But I could roll in one…
Paul, I think you got the Forester when the car was in it’s “prime”. The Forester has grown too much and is more like a traditional CUV. Although we have differing needs, I share the same frustration with today’s marketplace. The types of vehicles I used to buy are nearly all gone, and the few that are left aren’t quite right in some way. Maybe it’s our age (I’m the same as you). On the other hand, do you want to commit to keeping a CC running? If so, perhaps you should just fix the Forester. I have friends that love their clean 2005 Outback; don’t care for the new one, and have invested a lot of money (yeah, head gaskets) to keep it going.
I’m no longer up for the challenge, I can come here and reminisce instead.
something to keep in mind when considering old vs new is that new brings you a 350 or more per month car payment…that means every three months you’ve dropped a grand…what non-exotic car is going to need $1000 of repairs every three months for five years?
Paul, in my mind there are a few options that would work from what you have said.
First, you could have the engine in the Forester replaced and/or overhauled. The 352 in my Galaxie was $3500 via Jasper and it has a 3 year / 100,000 mile warranty. Not bad for a 50 year old car. You know your cars history, so there is a certain confidence in that and for about $5k or so (after labor) you would be good to go.
Second, you could get the old Mercedes (or Volvo) wagon. In turn, rent a car locally for your long distance trips. One can rent many an Impala for the cost of a new car and you won’t have to worry about depreciation.
Third, you could go all out and get a CC combined with the ultimate in utility – a ’71 LTD wagon. You are in Oregon so it will run forever plus you can relive days gone by. There are generally several on e-bay.
Your lack of excitement about new car options is definitely shared with others.
Yes, a rebuilt engine is almost a necessity for the short term and to sell eventually, otherwise its almost down to scrap value. I can get one for about $1600 plus shipping, and I’m trolling craigslist for a mechanic to come to the house to install it. I’m hoping to get the total bill down to about $2500.
And yes, a mixture of old and new/newer is one we’re also mulling.
But the ’71 Ford is the best idea yet!
Thanks again Paul that worked! Also, and this may sound funny, but what about a Geo Metro wagon? Or a Kia Rio wagon? Or, one of my personal favorites:
There is also this guy in Iowa who just bought a Lincoln and may have grown bored with his Volvo. You may be able to cut him a deal to take it off his hands….
I don’t think that he would be willing to part with it, that Volvo needs to save the Lincoln from being exposed to those Iowa winter roads.
Um, actually, it’s Illinois.
But Eric is right. I have to keep the Volvo to make the Lincoln last, although I’m thinking of getting a 2010-12 MKFusion in a couple of years to replace the Volvo as a winter/bad weather driver!
That rebuilt engine sound reasonable, only twice what we paid for a TB and head job. But there are other expensive breakable bits under a Subaru. I lunched the center diff after a jolly winter of handbrake turns on my driveway ice patch (don’t do that with a Subaru, I learned). And in the last months we owned the Forester, a stubborn CEL turned out to signal the rupture of the charcoal canister in the gas tank evaporative emissions system. Not a common problem, and less likely in the cool climates, it stumped our dealer for four shop visits, and eventually cost $1600 to fix. It’s a bad feeling to hold onto a car $1600 too long.
Personally I wouldn’t touch a mail order rebuilt, plus you rarely end up coming out much ahead when you factor in shipping both ways, and if there is a warranty issue you’ve got a whole other host of problems. However a rebuilt engine is a bad idea unless you plan on keeping it for quite a few years.
Either sell it as a project of put in a “low mile” used import engine and sell it soon.
Sell it or trade it in as is. $750
Spend $1200 on installing a used engine and it is worth $2500.
Spend $2500 on installing a rebuilt engine and it is worth $2750.
Typically, I would totally concur. But how do I know the used engine won’t have piston slap and have its head gaskets start leaking in 6 months. Given the propensity of these engines for both of these conditions, I am a bit wary of a used engine.
The engines from Japan are the 2.0 Liter, and can be made to work, but is not totally “plug and play”. And of course with an automatic, they’re down on performance a bit.
The better used engine places will pay labor should the engine go bad in the warranty period. There is also the wrecking yard and you can get lucky and find one that just had its head gaskets replaced.
However the idea is to get the used engine installed and get rid of it the next day. This plan is to minimize the financial hit of a car that you’ve simply kept longer than was a good idea.
Putting the rebuilt engine in means that you’ll have to keep it “to get your money out of it” and you will be married to the car. I’ve seen it way too many times.
I can’t sell it because I just spent X on that new engine and all it is worth is X, then it needs axles, radiator, wheel bearings, starter, alternator, or worse the transmission kicks the bucket and the next thing you know you’ve got a car worth X that you’ve spent 1.5X or 2X on in the last 2 years.
If your consience won’t allow you to sell it on CL with the used engine then just sell it as a project. I’m sure there is someone like this down your way. http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/cto/4260815932.html In still running and driving condition I bet you could get rid of it very quickly for $750~$1000.
For a replacement I suggest a 2010-2012 Escape Hybrid. There isn’t an AWD “wagon” with better combination of room, reliability and fuel economy.
+1 on the LTD wagon. In all seriousness, though; watch out for the mid nineties Volvo. A friends wife had a minor bingle in one and the airbag put her in hospital. Probably a one-off, but you have to figure that those early airbag vehicles are going to suffer from some sort of gremlin as time moves on. Stick with recent or pre-ECU. W124 wagon mebbe.
Another idea that just came to mind is a slightly-used Volvo XC70 wagon. It has many of the qualities you like about your current Forrester, along with traditional Volvo wagon styling.
Cheap is cheap. A base-model Jeep Patriot Sport is $15k right now, including destination and rebates. Of course, that leaves you with crank windows and no a/c…
(seriously, who sells cars without a/c standard anymore??)
If you find a friendly dealer. You can even order one in brown. If you squint just right, it could pass for a station wagon. Shame there’s no diesel and it’s not RWD, or it would meet the perfecta of hoonworthiness 🙂
“Cheap is cheap” Aptly put, in terms of this car.
“(seriously, who sells cars without a/c standard anymore??)”
Kia apparently did in 2010 with the base model Kia Forte LX. It had manual everything and no A/C BUT had sat radio and bluetooth(go figure) I had one of these for about 3 months in 2012 and I drove it during the hot MD summer and it was not all that bad but the 5 speed stick that was offered in the car was horrible(first time I came across a car where the designers managed to screw up a manual trans) so I dumped it(I did get $500 more then i paid for it though)
We replaced engines in both a 1992 Legacy and a 1997 Outback, each with blown gaskets at around 140k miles (I think there’s a trend here). Frau F insisted on replacing the Outback and we wound up with an off-lease 2009 Forester, which now has 80k miles. It’s the base model and IMHO looks significantly better than the current MY.
Even though the lack of a 5th gear strangles highway miles at 33 or so, it sounds like you won’t need it for local hops. It’s dependable, boring, and can carry a LOT of schtuff, and with the ‘manu-matic’ it can be slightly entertaining.
Sure beats driving a Subaru that sounds like a sewing machine (I don’t seem to hear that on the streets anymore although it’s too cold for open windows at home).
Aww, that boxer growl is the best thing about the Subie engine!
There’s a whole range of inexpensive, compact yet roomy, very practical, perfectly no-nonsense and fuel efficient (new) vehicles. Renault Kangoo, Citroën Berlingo, Peugeot Partner, Dacia Duster, Dacia Logan MCV, Fiat Doblo, Fiat Qubo, to name a few. Most of them even available in an AWD configuration.
But I guess exactly none of them is available on the US market.
Don’t remind me…. 🙁
Sorry….
Anyway, wouldn’t the American Bully with his Grim Reaper no-worries-mate face feel comfy in the back of this Peugeot Partner 4×4 ? You know….Peugeot, your favorite French brand.
Isn’t that the same/similar to the Fiat Doblo? That is coming to the US later this year, as the Ram Promaster City, to compete against the Ford Transit Connect.
I had to laugh upon seeing a Ram Promaster commercial during football yesterday — Johnny Cash-sounding announcer, western music, the “Ram Tough” slogan, and somehow no mention of the fact that this is an Italian-designed van built in Mexico. (I’d take one, though, but then I was a Transit Connect buyer, as confessed elsewhere in the comments .. )
No, the Doblo has no Peugeot/Citroen counterpart, and they are bigger than the Partner.
The Peugeot Partner and the Citroën Berlingo are basically identical cars. No Fiat connection here. The factory 4×4 option on the PSA-twin comes from Dangel.
Most of the models I mentioned are available as a car model (so with back seats etc.) and as a van. (a pure commercial vehicle)
They even come as a camper, like this Peugeot:
Just by way of comparison, this is the Peugeot Partner in its most basic form: a white van with black bumpers. The diesel is a 90 hp 1.6 liter.
I know it’s not feasible to have a JDM camper in the states, but I feel obligated to throw out the Bongo Friendee Auto Free Top (image courtesy of wikipedia):
I’ll see your Bongo Friendee Auto Free Top (which we do actually have here!), and raise you a Honda Odyssey Camper (also relatively common here)! The one pictured is a ’96 2.2L, currently for sale here on Trademe, and yes, there’s a bed up top.
I see that you posted a camper van odyssey would you possibly be interested in shipping odyssey parts to America
Ha Ha Ha, we have two Diesel Berlingo’s in our company, virtually undestructable, great economy Diesels and still ‘Ye ol’French comfort’
If you can live without AWD, the new Kia Soul may be just the ticket. Good size/value/equipment ratio if you ask me.
The Soul really is a great hatchback. People who have them really seem to like them and they look good too.
Ford Transit Connect, passenger version of course… not very attractive, but nothing else from the last decade is either, but its super practical, square, gets decent MPG, and uses alot of tried and tested focus parts.
Good suggestion, although the 2014s are Officially Overstyled. 2013 or earlier with AWD would be the way to go.
There’s no AWD Transit Connect, but it has pretty good ground clearance. I bought my passenger version a year ago after seeing renders of the 2014, which became too fussy and curvaceous for me. It was the last chance to get something that could have been styled with a ruler — to me, that’s beauty — and it’s even Euro (OK, Turkish). The carrying capacity is pretty phenomenal (bikes go in standing up without even removing a wheel).
Downsides: droning powertrain with old four-speed auto trans, fuel economy (about 20/27), high roof (dropped for the ’14) keeps you out of some parking garages, bland interior plastics scratch if you even look at them. But, I don’t regret the purchase!
The 2014 seems to have grown up into a real minivan.
I think the key to the MB or Volvo (or e34 touring) is to find a well-maintained example. I recently bought a post-Galaxy Volvo 960 wagon (1995) with low miles. It is tolerant of short, no-freeway LA drives, though fuel economy is poor in that mode. Highway is great, though wind noise is more of a factor than with a W124!).
But deferred maintenance at purchase (front struts) turned into a lot of front suspension work not spotted in the prepurchase inspection I had done. Etc., etc. The car has been utterly reliable, but “intake” has been over my estimate.
I guess this is all obvious. I don’t regret my purchase, but if I had to do it over I would have strung something together for a while (or, in your case, drive with a white cloud for a while) to buy time for the right older car to come to market, or knuckled under and bought new.
Any thoughts on the Ford Flex? It’s just a big wagon anyway, and they depreciate quite rapidly, so you could most likely find a recent one for quite a steal. A Taurus X could also work out well for the both of you.
Too big, both of them. We’re empty nesters, and prefer smaller cars.
Honda Fit? I know it lacks awd, but snow tires can get you pretty far. And though it’s smaller than your current Forester, the space-utilization is kind of mind-blowing. Have you seen the Magic Seat in action?
When you consider all of the so-called “features” that modern cars have, the Fit has the highest meat:gingerbread ratio (I just invented that!) that I can think of, aside from a W/T pick-up truck. Lots of useful stuff you need–more than most cars, even pricier ones–without the overloaded-living-room gewgaws.
The Fit is perhaps the best new car I’ve driven in a while. Pre-2010 redesign, sport model w’. 5-speed and you’re golden. Sure footed, powerful, economical and roughly the same size as your current Forester inside. Ps, I have a friend who has the same year Forester and simply won’t let it go…
How about one of the H6 Subarus (Outback wagon or etc)? I’ve heard they don’t have the headgasket problems the H4 models do.
140K on mine (2003) and still going strong. I did go through wheel bearings at around 95K. I have even toyed with trying to find one of the same generation when this one craps out, since I don’t like the newer ones as much–I think the interiors have gotten cheaper and less durable. (My fake plastic wood is NICE fake plastic wood!) We took it to Death Valley and back recently instead of my wife’s MINI with 11K miles, because the longer wheelbase is more comfortable on long drives. (Thus my also toying around with the idea of a Town Car a la Baruth.)
May have found something really incontournable. Still, just look at this one. AWD Peugeot 504 break Dangel. This one is in bad shape, but there must be better ones around.
http://www.leboncoin.fr/voitures/501058358.htm
More American, taste wise, the Peugeot 504 Dangel (4X4) truck:
http://www.leboncoin.fr/voitures/372481837.htm
Perfect! Stephanie will love driving it 😉 ….is it an automatic? She doesn’t do manuals.
French / Euro and automatics? C’mon! Europeans passing their driving test with an automatic get a special, limited driving license, not allowing them to drive a manual. A tranny would require them to take the test again.
Ditto in New Zealand for part of the 3-stage driving licence process. Sit the stage 2 test in an auto and that’s all you can drive for the next 12-18 months until you’re allowed to sit stage 3. My parents made sure they owned manual transmission cars back when my sisters and I were learning to drive. Although I currently drive an auto, I love manuals and am grateful to my parents’ foresight!
I have a friend who had a Forester of the same vintage as yours. She needed to replace it last summer and ended up getting a Honda Fit. Not the right car for everyone, but she is very happy with it.
Maybe I’m way too practical but I would go for a latest version of the previous gen Escape. If you want to go nuts get a restored 55 Chev wagon with 6 cyl, 3 on the tree. with OD of course. A two tone green would be nice.
current generation escape is interesting, too. not sure about the rear visibility.
I currently have one of the prior gen Escapes and it does seem like it would tick all the right boxes. It’s boxy, not too big, has good utility and visibility.
To take it a completely different direction, the mention of constant short trips makes me think you could do well to consider something electric. The motor doesn’t care if it’s warmed up. A Leaf is about the same size as the Forester. The downside is you can’t really take it on a roadtrip, but if you’ve got cheap electricity what you save can easily cover a rental when you need one. (Full disclosure – when my CC-worthy Fox Mustang was totaled a few months ago we replaced it with a Chevy Spark EV. It’s smaller, sportier and cheaper than the Leaf, but it can still haul a bit. We love it. Now we only take the Escape on long trips or when we need to haul a lot). Or get something electric and keep the Forester for trips and really bad weather.
I’ve had the same thought for several years, since EVs first came out. It could work, but I’d have to replace my car (Xb) too, because it’s a stick, and she just doesn’t do them 🙁
But yes, for all the short errands we run around town, an EV would make a lot of sense. What’s the range on the Spark?
The Spark EV is EPA rated for 82 miles. From my experience (only 1300 miles so far), it’s no problem to get 90 miles or more in city or moderate highway driving. It’ll easily cruise at 80 mph, but at that speed your range will drop some. I also haven’t dealt with real cold, but those that do are reporting about 70 miles while using the heat or 75-80 if you only use the seat heater.
The Mustang was a stick, and I do miss that, but the silent operation and instant torque of the Spark is fun too, just a very different kind of fun. At least the truck is still a stick, right?
Two comments here, well three actually.
1) Has Stephanie tried the Prius V?? Lily drove our 2010 Prius thru the mountains to the coast yesterday, and she remarked, “this really is a fast car”. You can option up the Prius with leather and other very nice goodies.
2) A German-American friend who owns a tavern in North Portland gave up after a long line of decreasingly-reliable VW buses and bought an Escape Hybrid new. Ford hybrids are full hybrids like the Prius. He loves his and enjoyed very good reliability. No more new hybrid Escapes, but you might find a well-cared-for hybrid 2nd-hand. Don’t worry about battery cost, they hold up well over 100k, sometimes 200k, and they’re much cheaper to replace than ten years ago.
3) I’ve been thinking about the Spark EV myself. It’s quite a performer, 400 lb-ft of torque! In the C&D First Test (link) they didn’t run it all the way down but they drove 50+ miles with an indicated 29 left. The price is so right it’s about what I’ll spend to convert the Miata. We’re lucky in Cal. and Oregon to have access to such a great deal. You should go drive one. Maybe I should too.
The Prius V was going to be my suggestion too. It seems about as practical a suggestion as possible, 2WD limitation notwithstanding. For space, price, operating cost, and reliability it’s likely unbeatable.
But to a car lover will the Prius feel like a car or a major appliance? My only experience with them is as rentals, and while my inner geek loves them my inner car lover is more than a little squeamish. As I get older of course, the geek is in the ascendent. There are fleets of Prius taxis here in Vancouver with x00 000 km, and counting, on them.
I’ve long wondered why Toyota hasn’t done an AWD Prius. It’s so easy in a hybrid, just put an electric motor and differential back there. They did that in the Highlander.
Surprisingly, the AWD version of the Escape Hybrid has the usual mechanical setup, with the complexity and efficiency hit (2 mpg) that comes with it.
My Escape is a hybrid. It’s the 2WD version, but I thought I remembered reading that the 4WD used an electric motor for the rear. Edmunds confirms that, at least for the 2009-12 version: All-wheel-drive (AWD) models come with an additional electric motor to power the rear wheels when additional acceleration or traction is needed. http://www.edmunds.com/ford/escape/2012/?sub=hybrid#overview-pod
Mine has some squeaks and rattles, and had a fuel injector fail at about 30k miles, but otherwise has been reliable. No issues with the hybrid powertrain. A coworker has a 4WD version, and takes it to the mountains and the snow.
Excellent, j_slez, then the 2009-2012 is the AWD Escape Hybrid of choice.
Agreed, the 2009-12 is superior. It will also go up to 40 mph in electric mode, vs 25 for the earlier years. However, for Paul’s (or Stephanie’s) needs, I’m not sure a hybrid is the way to go. On all those short trips the gas engine would never get warmed up enough to shut off, negating the advantage of the hybrid. On long trips, there’s not much advantage either. He’d need either all-electric or plug-in, where the default mode is electric.
Paul,
I bought my wifa a used (2003) Toyota Highlander V6 4WD (AWD) a couple of years about 4 years ago with 80,000 miles on the clock. We’ve since put another 80,000 on the thing and except for routine maint. (including timing belt and water pump), It’s required nothing. That particular generation of Highlander is actually quite Forrester-like in it’s overall feel. Definitely more grunt and a bit to much plasti-wood for my taste but a very competent ride overall. I’d actuall consider owning another of this generation…Subsequent ones got progressively bigger and (in my eyes anyway) strangely styled.
Yes, the early Highlanders are a lot more compact than the more recent ones, and oddly, they do look a bit like the Forester.
Even though we have completely different taste and interest in cars, I “feel your pain”. Since they stopped building Town Cars there are no new cars I’d really want to buy; I like the look of the 300 from the outside but inside it is like driving in a cave.
I really like the idea above of just overhauling the engine. Or even getting one of the older models you mentioned (as long as you feel safe in it, never crosses my mind but understand a desire for the latest in safety features).
Really I feel you can’t go wrong with a new engine or the Volvo or MB—as long as parts are available. If you were to spend $5-7K on a new engine and a complete “head to toe” inspection and overhaul of any worn parts (suspension, brakes, cooling system, etc), you’d have what you want in good shape for much less than you’d pay new. Again, as long as you don’t demand 2013-compliant safety or fuel economy standards, then you can pretty much spend somewhere south of $10,000 and get whatever you want to drive and have it cleaned up just as much as you want.
The Toyota RAV4 is an excellent car. It might be a bit bigger than your current Subaru.
From a practical point, I have gotten used to sitting up a little higher. We had a mini-van and an older RAV4 for nearly 10 years. When it was time to replace our van, we looked at some sedans. Your wife might want to think about his point. People can say what they want about the mini-vans and the CUV’s. I like sitting up a little bit higher when driving. Perhaps it’s middle age. Ha ha.
Good luck on your search. Give the RAV4 a “look see,” though. It might be worth your consideration.
Sounds somewhat familiar. In 2010 we were looking for a family hauler with a stick, and found an off-lease 2006 CR-V with the 5-speed sitting at the back of the Honda dealer’s lot. My wife was pleased to get another Honda because she was fond of her 2001 Civic. I liked that the engine has a timing chain and not a belt. I also like that it looks like Honda’s interpretation of a Jeep Patriot. So far we’ve been very happy with it.
From 2007 and up, Honda ruined the CR-V, in my opinion. If we had to replace ours today, I have no idea what we’d get. (That almost happened too. We had an ice storm just before Christmas and a tree limb fell on it, but it’s repairable.)
I would certainly give a base model automatic Honda Fit a look. I have recommended the 2nd generation car to three people now and they all love it. Simple, fun to drive, and astonishingly practical little car. 2014 is the last model year for the 2nd gen as well, so you can probably get a good deal on one. Things like the Magic Seat and its hatchback roominess meant my parents actually cross shopped a Fit and a Ford Flex (!) One of the best overall new cars on the market if you ask me
I have an 07 Fit, and find it a bit small and hard-riding for real comfort on trips. Paul also has a Scion Xb, so that is probably not enough variety, and breaks the JPC rule that you should never own two cars that do about the same thing.
Yes, you put your finger on it. We need something a bit quieter and softer-riding for longer trips.
You need a 2004 Corvette (the wonderful C5) with 27,000 miles. Always garaged from Nov-May. Two owner car. Black on black. Auto everything. Fast….exciting….well respected style. 19 thousand dollars. YOU won’t find a more affordable fun car with this much panache. High gears gets 20 mpg city and 27 highway. You would be crazy to avoid this car.
Wow – I just realized how clueless I am on new car specifics.
A friend just bought a Ford C Max Hybrid, and is quite happy with it. It seems a nice size, smaller than a minivan/SUV but bigger than my Honda Fit. They are not all hybrids, if that is an issue.
Another idea nobody has mentioned is a used Honda Element. You can get them with a 5 speed if you look. There are some late model ones out there, and older ones too. If you don’t need room for more than four, this would be an idea.
You could also be like me and get a Kia Sedona – probably the most car for the money available anywhere. 🙂
Stephanie has always like the Element. It’s a bit bigger than ideal, but it could do.
Bigger than ideal? It doesn’t seem any larger than my Mazda Tribute is, and both of those are definitely “compact” in my book. Of course, when one’s definition of “normal-sized” is “regular cab F-350” and “large” is “Ford L-700” or “John Deere 8300 tractor,” perceptions may be altered…
If you might end up with a used car anyway, why not look for a well-cared-for 2008 Forester? It’s the last year for the original proportions, and the 2006-08 cars boast many improvements over the 1997-2002 and even over the 2003-05 models. Subaru discussion boards I’ve looked at over the years tend to suggest that post-2005 4-cylinder engines don’t have nearly as many gasket failures. (We love our ’06 5-speed and will likely face the same problem of replacement eventually, unless some of those like-sized European AWD cars start to be imported.)
And how do we know they won’t fail eventually. It’s only been 5 years or so on these newer ones. I’d like to think that they’ve finally licked the problem.
My 2007 Outback MT had leaking gaskets at 36k miles (barely under warranty) and several wheel bearings (among a few other items) until I sold it for $4k over “book” value, at 78k miles.
I can second the suggestion of an H6 Subaru. I have an 02 LLBean Outback that I bought 2 years ago with 113k. Aftrr replacing valve cover gaskets and the right front half shaft (which I knew when I got it) it has needed exactly 0 in 33k more miles.
Also of you can find one, an 06 or so Mazda 6 wagon is a very nice size.
Get a newer Forrester – not the current model, but 4 – 5 years newer than you have now. One that has lived a sheltered life. Not green though.
How about the Volvo V60? Or the SWB Transit Connect?
What about a Diesel VW Jetta? The variety of vehicles overseas is more varied and I wish more were available over here. The current Outback is kind of ugly so I would rather have a XV Crosstrek, it is the closest thing to a AWD Tercel wagon. An older car is not going to like the short trips.
I agree with you about newer vehicles. I really liked my 95 Voyager, pretty much like my 03 Caravan, but the newer Minivans are too heavy, too loaded with electronics, and get crappy gas mileage.
Would a new Mazda3 hatch be too small? Fun, efficient and almost Italianate in its sleek styling.
If AWD is a priority, you could do much worse than the CX-5.
Considering the short distances the car will travel and fact that you only go around once in life I would get the more satisfying, older car. The right 300E, 190E, 740 or 940 will get Stephanie where she needs to go every time and satisfy those old car urges that otherwise never go away. It could be the basis for a reoccurring piece in Curbside Classics. Think of the timely advice you could get on troubleshooting issues as they come up. Yes you will have more maintenance than on a Subaru but your savings on depreciation will more than offset that. In any event you need to get this out of your system. Whenever I did I never once regretted it.
The problem of course is finding the right car. This could take months. Plenty of 200K+ beaters out there. While you wouldn’t want one of those the enormous mileage they accumulate is reassuring about how much life there would be left in a lower mileage car, at least for me.
I would set aside 4-5 months to look for that perfect old car. If by May it appears it’s not gonna happen then give up and find something newer. Keep yourself open to cars that are “close” in desired year and model, which you will see in for sale listings. For me condition is more important than getting a specific model.
For example while searching through Calif. CL for a 300SD I came upon a beautiful 300SE with fairly low miles, perfect condition and a ton of expensive work. These SWB S-classes aren’t as lumbering as you might think. The trunk and rear seat areas are large and can come close to matching the space of a smaller wagon.
This car is in the Bay area not that far from you. Even if it’s not your cup of tea it’s a good example of what to look for. They are out there so why not give it a shot?
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/cto/4259924007.html
It would have to be a 300T wagon. No sedans. But otherwise, it’s a strategy we may keep considering. In the short run, the Forester has to have an engine fix regardless. Then we’ll see…
Last year we traded my wife’s ’07 Forester (green), for a new CR-V. She loves the CR-V, I miss the Forester. I kept an eye an the lot to see what our Forester would sell for, and it never even made the lot. Saw it a week later with a new owner behind the wheel. You’ll pay a premium for a good one, but a 5 or 6 year old Forester is your best bet IMO.
We bought hers new, and in 90,000 km the only repair was a headlight bulb. Despite what you hear the late models were damn near bullet proof. And what’s wrong with green anyway?
After reading your postings for many years, I get the impression that you have enough projects on your hands at any given time already. Replacing with an older car, or an engine swap on an old car just leaves you with an older car demanding a bit more maintenance and repair just to keep it on the road. Paying someone to do most of this work can get pricey and it is getting harder and harder to find a mechanic that can actually do the job right anyhow. Don’t you still have an older camper, Xb and pick-up that you have to keep running? I don’t have a car recommendation, but do get something new just to have one less thing to worry about.
I enjoy working on cars, and have far fewer projects, but I’m coming to the same conclusion with my current fleet. My newest car is 13 years old (keeping it), but am seriously considering a new car for the GF (to replace a 90 Accord). In trying to keep up with those two, I haven’t even driven my old Caddy droptop in the last year , not to mention having time to continue the restoration.
Right you are. I’m just about to have to do a couple of things to take the old Dodge Chinook on a long trip. So yes, one new or almost new car has its attractions.
You cannot beat a Honda Pilot. 3-4 years old…..with say 35k miles. Safe bet. A very practical small wagon like SUV with all the goodies.
hi paul –
as an oregonian up the road from you i really enjoy your taste in vehicles … probably because it’s so similar to my own. my 1987 mercededs 300TD wagon is up to 174K and it is, indeed, a wonderful ride. but, as you mention, it is 26 years old and maintenance adds up.
i’m old school in terms of design and prefer cars that have visible bumpers. that rules out most of the cars from the last 10+ years.
however, there is the XC70 series from volvo and you can find some decent examples in the 2006/06 range. not quite the level of a w124 wagon, but they work well in the pacific NW.
and tho i loathe the stigma that seems to come with subaru drivers, the crosstrek model has just enough attitude to separate it from it’s siblings. and you seem to like it. maybe you mix things up and go for the hybrid version?
or … and this is from left field … have you looked at the new cherokee? weird, perhaps, but it’s a decent little performer.
Thanks. Will have to ponder the XC70 a bit.
Volvo’s inline-5, as fine engine as it is, but timing belt is every 60Kmiles. And their AWD is not the paragon of reliability too.
i have a 2002 xc70. i believe the timing belt is at 105k miles not 60k. i did replace the haldex awd transmission but that was because an idiot at aamco ruined it. otherwise it’s been very reliable. the later models are a couple of inches higher and some of them have a (yamaha?) six instead of the venerable volvo five. overall, i’d rate it as a much more comfortable car than the forester more akin to the outback. best seats you’ll ever sit in.
CPO AWD previous generation Fusion or Milan. Fuel economy is not super duper but it has AWD, it is luxurious, it is just large enough for the two of you to take friends to dinner on occasion, and will be great for highway trips to see the kids and grandkids. It won’t cost you more than $20,000 either.
Has to be a wagon….dog, bales of straw, plants from the nursery, etc.
Curse Mazda for never making the 6 AWD and killing the wagon so early in the last generations cycle! 😛
(But seriously I wish Mazda had at least made the hatch version until 2011-2012)
Oh, but Mazda did make an AWD Mazda6 in gen 1 and 2! And not just the Mazdaspeed6 sedan either, the normal sedans, hatches and wagons were available with it in various RHD and LHD markets. Sadly we didn’t get them new either, but plenty have arrived here used ex-Japan.
The hatch remained with us until the new gen3, and the wagon never left the Kiwi line-up – it’s the top-selling wagon in NZ and is the default sales-rep wagon. I had both ’05 and ’08 Mazda6 wagons, which were excellent – and my sister now owns my ’05 and it’s still excellent (better interior materials than the gen 2 too). My old ’08 is pictured below.
If I was in the market for another wagon (which I kind of am) it’d definitely be a Mazda6 (although probably not the AWD), due to their unique combination of style and thoughtful design, zoominess and economy, and acceptable ride and awesome handling. I’d heartily recommend a Mazda6 wagon Paul, except of course you can’t get the newer ones in the US, and I’m not sure it’d be quite what you’d want.
Paul,
I had a 940SE sedan for seven years and I loved it. Dad bought it new and I got it at 28K miles. It is my W124; the one that got away, the one I never should have sold.
With the turbo the fuel economy is not so hot (20 mpg city) but with the way your will use the vehicle I imagine that will not be a big deal. Plus, you live in Volvo Central 🙂
I liked my S70 too, but it was temperamental and not the most reliable. However, if you are thinking about a more late-model wagon, my V50 has been wonderful. Six and a half years, 70K miles and still runs like a top. Mine is the non-turbo 2.5L and it gets about 25 city and 32-34 highway. The problem for you would be not many were imported, so finding one could be tricky. These also came in a turbo version, but both the turbo and normally aspirated V50s were inline five cylinders.
Or, go with your heart and find that W124 wagon. If Stephanie decides she doesn’t like it, I’m sure you would be happy to take it over!
Many good points to ponder.
i think the v50 makes more sense than the xc70 for you, too.
You can’t judge the V50 until you sit in one. On paper, I was keen for the concept. The Swedish modernist interior looked divine. When a salesman passed me the keys for an unescorted drive, I barely made it around the block. The headrests, not adjustable, were pushed forward so far that my back couldn’t reach the seat, three inches behind me unless I craned my neck forward. The seat was designed only to score well on rear-impact crash tests. It’s a problem I find with most cars, but none as bad as that.
I noticed the same headrest problem with my V70 however, I found if I tilted the seatback just slightly the headrest was out of the way and the slight tilt has not bothered me at all in 40,000 miles of driving the last 2.5 years.
+1. I have heard that the modern Volvo headrests are a pain for some but in 70,000 miles of driving this car it has never bothered me.
My advice is sit in one and then decide.
When my parents were car shopping earlier
thislast year (it’s now 2014 here!), although they figured only another Legacy would meet their needs, they tested a number of other makes and models too. They sat in several cars (no Volvo though) that had non-adjustable forward-leaning headrests. Their decisions were instant – even if the rest of the car was excellent, stupidly uncomfortably headrests were the #1 deal breakers.My mom has a 2007 V50 T5 and she adores it. I have driven it a lot and also enjoy it. It’s my mom’s favorite car she has ever had and will drive it until the wheels fall off. A V50 with or without the turbo would be a nice choice. And some of them even came with AWD.
Paul,
You’ve gotta get a Volvo 240/700/900 Series wagon! I think their simplicity and durability would suit your needs just fine. I would look for one between 1991 and 1995 because of their more superior a/c systems and better overall build. Or if you want to go to the dark side, a 960 wagon wouldn’t be bad if you know how to get around the intensive maintenance requirements.
Another suggestion: Since you like Mercedes, how about a W202 C-Class between 1994 and 2000? Although I would advise you to get a C220/C230 between ’94 and ’98 – I wouldn’t get the later Kompressor (Supercharged) models if I were you.
Find a 2wd Slightly used CRV or what about the new Nissan Versa Note? With the year-end sales you could get a new one for like 14.5.
Among older cars an FWD GM A-body wagon would be worth considering. For any given price point you’d probably find a lot newer and nicer A-body than W124, and if you break down far from home absolutely any auto-repair facilities will know them and parts would probably be cheaper than for anything else meeting your other requirements.
Late models and new cars are more of a quandary. Maybe wait for the next generation Fit and Golf/Jetta wagon to see what they’re like?
Echoing Teddy above, TDi, Paul. TDi. Go drive one, you’ll see.
Do they have a DPF over there? If so I wouldnt recommend one for short trip use
‘Rainless’ has some good suggestions. If you balk at the price of admission on a new Volvo, instead of the 940 series you might want to consider a low-mile V70 T5, say from 2004 or later…….
If its this hard Paul throw an ex Jap used motor at it and keep on truckin you’ve swapped a dakdak over these are similar but wet and more crap in the engine bay. Or I’d go with a Benz diesel wagon indestructable for immense mileages.
I would recommend staying far away from the VW. Dubious reliability, ludicrously overpriced parts (Like the odd-size wiper blades you can only get from VW at $30+ a piece) and the absolute worst dealer body in America.
I recently dumped mine right before the warranty ran out. Not that the warranty was worth much at my dealer, anyway. Turns out the resale is crap, too.
I’d say your best bet is another Forester. Yeah, it’s gotten bigger, but not as much as you’d think (six inches longer and a couple of inches wider) and its much more refined than the rather tinny original. You really can’t beat the combination of economy, utility and durability for the money with this or the CR-V.
I appreciate the idea of an old wagon, I really do, but it just doesn’t make a lot of sense from a financial or practical standpoint as a primary vehicle. Since you tend to keep your cars for 10-15 years, a new vehicle would probably cost you the same as trying to keep a 25 year old European car(s) on the road in the long run, if not less. Putting a new engine in your current Forester would be a safer bet, as well.
I agree completely with the suggestion of a new Forester. My wife and I have a 2009, and we love it. It has more rear leg room and cargo space than yours, and it’s great for long trips – we’ve done one 900 miler with four adults in full comfort. And it is not that big – easy to park and maneuver in the city, yet has the clearance and AWD for the countryside.
One other thing to consider is safety – the new Forester gets top marks in crash testing, and has more safety goodies than old cars. That’s why I limit my driving in older cars – I may be a good driver, but those other folks are trying to kill me.
A low mile, non-ghetto’d out Dodge Magnum wagon would be boss, especially an SRT. Good luck finding one though.
Stephanie is somewhat intrigued, but only if it is fully ghetto’d out! Go figure 🙂
If you can find a well cared for Magnum SXT with the 3.5L V6, do try it out, you might be surprised. I had two Magnums as company cars: an R/T with the Hemi engine and the aforementioned SXT. Although I loved both, surprisingly I’ve missed the SXT the most.
To this day I still curse the cancellation of the Magnum.
But there is less useable hauling room in a Magnum and lower MPG.
Roberto, I miss the Magnum too. My kids were little when they came out and I should have tried harder to convince my (ex) wife to get one. My favorite would be the revised 08 SRT.
I do wish it was still in production but Chrysler canxed it make room for Challenger production.
Paul, a pimped Magnum is pretty easy to find in this part of the country (SE VA) but uh, I question their owner’s service history and they usually tend to be lower end six cylinder models. Besides 26″ rims make it handle like crap. Nice, original well-cared for ones are usually hoarded by their owners and command big price tags when they do change hands.
We never got the Magnum downunder, all our RHD wagons were Chrysler 300C badged, with the 300C front clip and interior. Most of them are the 3 litre diesel too, so they combine great looks with excellent fuel economy! Of course the 300C SRT-8 wagon was available if economy wasn’t a concern 😉 2006 300C-Diesel:
Daaaaamn, how cool is that?! I had no idea such a thing existed. I liked the Magnum, too, but this one-ups it as far as I’m concerned. Someone mentioned the other day that you could get a manual transmission in the turbodiesel 300s down there as well, does that go for the wagon too? If so, that’s like a car designed by the internet and built for the internet (diesel, RWD, wagon, manual transmission).
I liked the Magnum too (from afar!), but I do think the 300C front clip suits the overall design better. Sadly there’s never been a manual trans 300 available here, diesel or otherwise. I don’t think Chrysler has ever actually done a manual 300/300C in either generation have they? But I want one now…!
All I can say is Kia, Kia, Kia! Love my very reliable and fun 2009 Kia Rondo, but they don’t sell them in the US any more. The updated Soul is getting great reviews, the Sportage is attractive, and a base Sorrento is a lot of car for the money!
Paul, I don’t think this aspect has been mentioned, but I would like to see you and Stephanie buy a new(er) car with side head and pelvic air bags. I’m over 60 and this was a serious consideration when I bought my G37 in 2010 (my older beloved Maxima had many years left in it but it lacked these features). While I have no doubt that both of you are excellent drivers, the fact is that there are a lot of people on the road today who are not and you really want the best protection if you get hit by one of them. Just my two cents…
Some of these suggestions are killing me — a previous generation Ford Fusion or Mercury Milan???? If you’re going used you want to get a car that was formerly expensive and now affordable enough to have as an extra car. It’s the CC way.
Since most people with a nice 300TE/TD or 745/945 aren’t looking to sell, how about expanding the list to include…
Mercedes R-class. Super cool with plenty of utility. A bit trucky to drive but women seem to like them.
Infiniti FX35. Not the current one the original one. Another modern classic. As long as you stay away from the 20″ wheels the ride isn’t too bad.
Infiniti EX35. This is basically a G35 wagon with a little lift. Stephanie would love it. The interior is really nice. Hatch area is small but if you fold down rear seats there is plenty of room.
If you are concerned about repairs look for one at Carmax and get the extended warranty. There should be plenty of the above to choose from and they are much more fun and interesting than a CRX or RAV.
If you do go new check out the Ford Escape with Ecoboost. If you haven’t driven one you are in for a big surprise. I prefer it to the CX5 in fact. You can get an extended warranty on the Ecoboost.
Personally I would look into getting a reman or even a new engine for the Forrester and keep on driving(If it is a stick, replace the clutch as the engine being out is a good time to) It might cost you a few grand but you would have no car payment and you would know the history on the car(unlike if you bought a used MB or Volvo) and any issues it had so none would be a surprise.
A good condition MB of that era would cost about $2000 to $4000. so best to consider throwing a replacement engine into the Subby and rolling on. The boxer engines are easy to remove.
Stay away from VW. They still are junk(when is the last time you saw a 12 year old VW rolling about let alone a 5 year old one?) Parts are over priced and the dealerships are full of arrogant douchebags that think you must have broken your car as VW’s are so reliable.
The poster above mentions Kia as a good idea. The Sorrento is a nice vehicle. My best friend was a diehard VW owner until she bought a 2wd 5 passenger 2012 Sorrento with the 6 speed manual(she loves manual vehicles) that Jetta she owned beforehand sits and is occasionally driven by her husband from time to time.
There is a Hyundai Elantra wagon called Elantra touring that might fit the bill for you.
But if you are looking for AWD then you might want to keep on the Subaru bandwagon as they seem to be the leaders in this and in the great recession a few years ago, Subaru was the only carmaker to actually increase sales.
A honda insight might be a good car for you, cheap(as the things don’t sell) and roomy with a hatch.
Or a 2005-2007 Ford Focus wagon
I’m a fan of that vintage Focus…
Last time I saw a 12 year old VW rolling? why my girlfriend’s 2001 Jetta. It’s working fine, thank you very much. And I see plenty of them even older than that around Portland.
Nothing quite brings out the internet hyperbole like Volkswagen.
Seriously? You are using Portland Oregon(Population 583,776(according to the 2010 Census) ) as a litmus test of how many older VW’s are still on the road in the USA??
First off that is a bit of a small area and secondly as we all know Oregon is a state that seems to behold magical protective properties which envelope around older cars and protect them so that they can live decades safely free of rust or other issues. This is the sole reason that Paul can show us so many curbside classics that were have not seen in years due to being junked or rusted away by now in other parts of the USA.
As for whether or not VW’s bring out the internet hyperbole (as you put it), consider this, there are a lot of complaints about shoddy workmanship(such as body panels not painted right, gaps in the interior and electrical unreliability), the net is full of complaints about arrogant dealers and service departments etc.
Take the Golf and the Jetta, they seem to be priced higher then a Corolla and Civic (because they are supposedly giving you the “German Car Experience” ) and yet you never hear any complaints about a Corolla(except that it be boring)
Back just a few years ago in the MD/DC/VA/DE/PA regions, the roads were thick with 1999.5-2005 Jetta and Golfs in all engine choices. They have all but disappeared now due to needing to give an arm and a leg to get it fixed. By contrast I see loads of 2010-2013 era Jettas out there now, so people are getting estimate shock when they take them in for repair and are stupid enough to want another round of VW ownership, are trading them in for newer models. VW= junk
So the gist of this story is to avoid buying a VW(until they make a car with good QC) but if you must have a VW, then buy new and be prepared to dump it when you hit 60,000 miles
My wife’s 2011 Forester’s lease is expiring soon. Our local dealer has begun it’s siren call to come in for the latest and greatest Forester.
I drive a 2012 Impreza which I feel is adequate, volume wise, for most tasks. My wife, a painter (arty, not house) feels that she needs the greater hauling capacity that the Forester affords.
I have suggested that she consider a Chevy Volt, which I have driven, and love, and a XV Crosstour, mainly because it’s available in orange.
At our age (wrenching is becoming increasingly difficult), and the fact that we can afford it, another Forester would appear imminent. Yeah, I fell the same sense of MEH as you do. I would like a new Corvette, or better still a ’65 or ’66 Vette, but that isn’t in the picture.
An older European car? Yikes! I can almost pay for a year’s lease for what my sister pays for routine maintenance on her BMW.
what about a 4th Generation 4-Runner with the six cylinder? I think the best looking generation. Very comfortable, reliable powertrains…Can beat the hell outta them, too.
Prius V as already mentioned. For short trips the hybrid drivetrain excels for power and economy. The big hatch may be not quite squared-off enough to function as a wagon though. And I haven’t looked at one in detail so it may not actually be suitable. But it would get you lots of green-cred in a city where that seems to mean a lot. And you can sell it after a few years into taxi service!
…or the previous generation Escape hybrid would tick all the same boxes but with a bigger cargo area. And it has 4WD if you want it.
The way I see it Paul, you’ve got a couple options. Option One, if your current Forester meets all your and Mrs N’s requirements, renovate it and keep driving it until it becomes your very own Curbside Classic. Option Two, if it no longer meets enough of your current requirements, find something that meets more (either classic or new).
Word of advice from my parents, who are on their third Legacy (ok, one was an Outback, but close enough): once the mechanical problems start, they can be never ending. Their first two Subarus each did over 300,000km and were dead reliable until the mid-200,000kms when the problems began. Some were major (engine bearings, head gaskets), most were minor but annoying. But when they went to upgrade earlier this year, there was nothing else out there that better met their needs, so they bought a 2008 Legacy. With only about 30,000km on it, so it should a few years before the problems surface!
In the short term, that’s almost inevitable. It might change how we feel about it then too.
I will have a similar quandary with our Aztek when it comes time to replace it. Nothing is quite the same size and capabilities for us, much like your concerns with the Forester. The modern replacement would be the Chevy Equinox/GMC Terrain/Cadillac SRX triplets, but I use the Aztek for all kinds of hauling. I’d hate to buy a nice new ride and then trash the interior…
One of the cars that I would consider replacing it with would be a Dodge Journey. It comes in either FWD or AWD models and four and six-cylinder engines. However, I think I would avoid the 4 banger unless you have no intentions of ever merging onto freeways. Dimensionally, it’s close to the Aztek and will have better equipment.
Someone else further up the strings mentioned the Jeep Patriot, I’d like to suggest the Jeep Compass. Again, close in size to your original Forester, available in FWD or AWD and comes with more up to date safety equipment.
The last car I’d suggest is a Chevy Malibu Maxx. With the 3.5 and the 4T60 autobox, the dang things are about bulletproof and swallow a rather large amount of cargo. The passenger front seat folds down, so you can load 10 foot long items, like lumber (ask me how I know!) and close the hatch. The last year they were assembled was 2006, so they’re getting up in age. And rarity.
Otherwise, your other choices seem logical to me. I’d go for the Volvo wagons as I think they rock.
Someone else further up the strings mentioned the Jeep Patriot, I’d like to suggest the Jeep Compass.
I like the looks of the Patriot, the Compass since the refresh, not so much. I have never driven one, but all the owner and tester comments I see tend to agree on “cheap and noisy” Old platform, shared with the Dodge Caliber. According to rumor mill to be replaced next year.
Good luck finding a base model. All the dealers around here carry mid and upper trims priced in mid $20Ks and up.
And prior to 14 the automatic was a CVT.
My brother has a Dodge Journey with the 4 cyl engine and it does not seem to do too bad, it is not breaking any land speed records but it keeps up with traffic and does have enough off the line speed to keep from sweating any off ramp adventures.
I am also considering a change, prefer a small wagon.
I keep circling a Jetta wagon, with the 5 cylinder. The diesels have been having fuel pump problems. The next generation wagon, due out next fall, looks great, but the new engine gives me the willies: ultra thin block walls, turbocharged, exhaust manifold inside the head and supposedly liquid cooled. Reviews of Passats and Jetta sedans with the new engine have been raves, but too much new stuff from a company with a poor reliability record to suit me. The 5 cylinder has been around since about 05 and seems to be well sorted. I saw a chart from Consumer Reports a few months ago that rated auto brands by reliability, and listed the best and worst from each brand. The Jetta wagon with the 5 cylinder has the best record of everything VeeDub makes.
Also tried out an Acura TSX wagon last fall. The car wasn’t bad, until I hit a patch of less than smooth pavement. Totally off the wall vibration and noise. And the price 10 large above the Jetta didn’t help either.
The Detroit Auto Show opens in three weeks. I think I’ll take a look at a BMW 3 series wagon ($42K w/ 4xdrive) and a BMW X1 ($31K for RWD)
Bet I come back to the VW again. I get in the VW, look at the old school insturments and controls, the good outward visiblity and the, relatively, cheap price, $23K for an S with conventional 6 spd auto, and it just feels like home.
-Mazda6 wagon, though I’m guessing the fuel economy will be well short of your desired goal
-1st gen Highlander
-Passat wagon? Though I bet you’re better off with a new Jetta wagon than going a few years used for the Passat
and perhaps my best suggestion, but maybe a hard sell: Mazda5. No AWD, but excellent visibility, lots of space (huge for 2 people and gear). If you can get by the minivan-ness of it, worth a look when checking out the CX5
Coming from an equivalent-generation hatch, with the V6 and non-sedate driving there’s nooo chance of making good urban fuel economy. Lots of fun, but you’ll pay for it (I’m generally between 17 and 19 city mpg). I don}t know if they offered the I4 for the wagon, but during the test drive it felt overtaxed.
In July of 2011 I purchased an 07 Volvo V70 wagon with 54,000 miles on it. It is the last full size wagon from Volvo as the 08 V70 is quite a bit smaller and lacking in front leg room compared to the 07. I have owned more than 30 cars in the last 50 years but this is my first Volvo. As soon as I sat in it I was pretty sure I would buy it because it just felt right. Driving it felt even better and I wanted a wagon with a squared off cargo area. My wagon is the 2.4 5 cyl with automatic. The acceleration is not bad, the engine is very quiet, there is no noticeable wind noise, the ride is soothing and of course, the seats are out of this world. I was worried about expensive repairs. I have now just passed 90,000 miles and except for routine maintenance every six months (I normally drive 7500 miles in 6 months) the car has not required any other repair. I take it to an independent Saab/Volvo shop for maintenance as Volvo dealers here in Southern CA do not have very good reviews from customers. I throw this in the ring as I do not know why everyone always wants the old Volvos. I absolutely love my 07 V70.
Good to know; thanks.
Paul, I was in the same boat two years ago. Our ’04 Forester XS had served exemplary duty as the big car for our small family was becoming obsolete. Why? It came with the “man pedal” and a five-speed stick, and I wasn’t going to send my only-teen out on the mean streets like that for her first driving years. And truth was, I was tired of the Forester. At low speeds, it was frisky and flingable, but over 40 mph it was tiresome and noisy.
My wife favored the obvious option, a new Forester. Now the past generation, the 2012 model offered a nicer interior, and didn’t spoil the wonderful visibility and utility the Forester always provided. My test drive went sour when I aimed the car up a steep residential road. The 4-speed (really!) got stuck between gears and would not accelerate beyond 35 mph, no matter how much gas I gave it. The new CVT transmission gets better reviews, but it’s still not a proper gear-on-gear powertrain.
The Jetta Sportswagen sits at the top of a class of its own (sub-$30K compact wagon). It’s all the car most folks will ever need. Go ahead, buy one, but choose either the TDI or the upcoming 1.8T gas engine. The Jetta wagon sits on the excellent MkV chassis, same as my GTI. Nothing wrong with that, except you won’t have the ground clearance of the Subie– but you have a truck for those camping trips, right?
That’s not what we bought, though. Again, the transmission queered the deal. The Jetta comes with the DSG auto-shift, which has a very limited towing capacity. Did I mention we tow a one-ton Scamp trailer now and then? For that duty, an SUV or CUV is essential now. Like the VW Tiguan we bought. Ours is loaded, and far too expensive, but if you take it easy with the options, it’s priced alongside the Sportswagen.
How does the Tiguan best the Sportswagen? Let me count the ways. First, it’s built in Wolfsburg, ’nuff said. It comes with the powerful, efficient 2.0T used in the GTI and every other premium VW. AWD is available. The interior is boxy, ground clearance is abundant and cargo room is generous, just like the Forester. But when you twist the wheel or pound the throttle, those GTI roots make themselves clear. It’s rated to tow 2,400 lbs. On a trip from Denver to Leadville last summer, it towed our trailer effortlessly, climbing a vertical mile without strain. The same trip in a non-turbo Forester was like “The Little Engine that (Barely) Could.”
The Tiguan doesn’t get much love in the online forums. The dominant meme is “uncompetitive.” You can get a bigger CUV for the money, if that’s what you want, but not a nicer one. In the first year, BTW, it’s been trouble-free. The only benefit the Jetta wagon brings is better fuel mileage, lots better of you go TDI. Depending on how many miles you drive, that may or may not be determinative.
Lastly, I know what you mean about the new cars. Nothing has the quiet, confident, simple styling of last century’s cars. I’d rather drive a CC myself– but I drive a lot of miles, and I don’t keep spare cars around, and I’m tried of big repair bills. If I had a nice CC, it would be a crime to drive it 20K miles a year!
My cousin in Austria had just bought a Tiguan when I was last there, and rode in it a few times. A very nice and solid-feeling car. I hold it in high regard, even if it’s not optimized for the US market, which has somewhat different priorities. Of course he had a TDi, and the mileage was impressive too.
Our Tig has returned 30 mpg on an easy mountain highway drive; city mileage is low 20s, but we have all the efficiency-robbing options, automatic & AWD. You do pay a price for greater frontal area & height. If I was doing it over again, I’d get a cheaper Tiguan SE with 17″ wheels, and look at lowering it an inch or two. (I will never get used to that high-ridin’ SUV driving position, it makes you feel like you’re driving 10 mph slower.) Then swap in a secondhand pair of GTI seats. I really think that would be an almost perfect vehicle. Until that TDI Tiguan arrives, anyway.
Slightly used CPO Tiguans are all over the lots now, starting at $17,000 in FWD. That’s probably the best value in a VW dealership right now, a German built turbo wagon for the price of basic Mexican Beetle or Jetta sedan.
The Jetta Sportswagen sits at the top of a class of its own (sub-$30K compact wagon). … Again, the transmission queered the deal. The Jetta comes with the DSG auto-shift, which has a very limited towing capacity.
The TDI uses the DSG, and the media says the next generation wagon will have use the DSG with the 1.8T. The current Mexican built 5 cylinder wagon uses an Asian conventional 6 speed.
Starting this year or next, the TDIs will have a urea tank that you need to have refilled from time to time.
The Sportswagen tows well with a manual. My friend uses a TDI JSW to tow a heavily loaded rafting trailer, and complains about getting just 25 mpg or so!
I care little about the urea fill-up. It shouldn’t be harder than refilling a windshield washer tank. I worry more about the expense of timing belt changes. I’ve usually bought used TDIs needing belt changes, and that cost ate up two years’ worth of TDI fuel savings, even with heavy use!
My most trusted VW mechanic, and indy VWAG guy, advised me to get a 2.0T. It’s a low-maintenance engine, with timing chain, that resolved many problems with the earlier FSI engine.
Here;s my list
Mazda 5 the mini mini van
C-max
I agree with the above poster about the FX just a cool car
Wait for the next fiat van?
transit connect
Kia soul
Chevy Sonic
Late model Volvo wagon
I’ve driven a CVT Impreza for two years. The transmission is largely transparent in city driving. The engine has enough torque that playing with the paddle shifters in town is just a bother. In the mountains the paddle shift mode, while in cruise control, you can avoid the spasmodic transmission behavior. I have mentioned this to Subaru a number of times and they have totally ignored my comments.
Perhaps a gently-used 2010-ish Ford Escape (under 50K miles, likely under $14K–unless 4WD is a “must”)?
Plenty boxy (before recent swoopy restyle), lots of glass, sits “up” a bit, not at all spartan; back seat folds to a “flat floor” for dog, hay bales, etc.
I live in Michigan, not Oregon, so this may be why I’ll go out on a limb here — off lease CTS Wagon. AWD available, comfortable, can get one with under 50K mi for less than $25K. OK the styling is not for everyone, but I like them. And you won’t see your double coming down the street every day.
Paul, we were in the same situation as you are about a year ago. My wife totaled her Subaru Legacy wagon on I-5 and we needed a replacement immediately. Our two main requirements were superior fuel mileage and good storage for my wife’s medical supplies. My wife can easily put in 100 miles a day as a hospice nurse. Our short list came down to the Subaru Crosstrek and the VW Tdi Sportwagen. We already knew the Subaru’s potential foibles: frequent head gasket repairs, weak fuel mileage, and having to replace all four tires when one goes bad. The Crosstrek was cute, but storage was not nearly as much as her old Legacy. The Sportwagen, however, was everything she needed; good fuel mileage, great reliability, and lots of storage. It also had the superb fit and finish that reminded us of an Audi. We decided on a toffee brown model with a 6 speed manual. We’ve gone 20k so far and have had zero problems.
Google Ads offers an answer to you, Paul. Not a bad idea actually, it even has AWD. Have you driven a modern Mini? They’re a kick.
2005-09 3.0R Outback of any flavor (Bean, plain R, VDC…)
MkII H6 is totally trouble-free, 5AT is not the best-tuned AT in the business, but is totally reliable. Greatest AWD system ever. Great seats, visibility. Plenty of useful space. Sufficiently fast and torquey for the hills. 22-23 mpg overall. Timing chain and 0 problems with the gaskets.
Just price in immediate rear shocks replacement and rear wheels alignment with 200 lbs in the trunk. The shocks will be shot 100% and with the alignment it will cure this generation’s only real weak spot (google ghost walking). Had on mine, fixed completely.
Dearly regret selling mine at 140kkm young… Had it for 90kkm, 0 problems.
My 2 cents: the Outback, the Forrester, or the Sportwagen TDI. I really have enjoyed my OB, and the deals are strong as they get ready to introduce its replacement next month. The new Forrester is not all that big, but hauls a lot. The Sportwagen diesel feels like it has a lot more torque than the 2.5.
Paul,
We bought a Mazda CX-5 Grand Touring AWD for the wife in May and we love it. We ordered the car in order to get exactly what we wanted, it took about a month to come in. We like the space for both people and stuff and the gas mileage is pretty good. We are averaging 26 MPG in mostly suburban driving, Our best tank has been 30 on the road and the worst has been 22. If you had the smaller 2.0 motor and or didn’t get the AWD the mileage would be even better. As a former Miata driver I can say the CX-5 handles great, it has that Mazda zoom-zoom and loves to take a turn. Have the wife drive one and see what she thinks.
If Stephanie doesn’t really need AWD, she could get a Fiat 500L.
If she absolutely needs AWD, she can get a new Mini Countryman, with available AWD.
A few cents from an infrequent commenter:
Shortly after I was born (in the late eighties), my parents realized that, with nursery school coming soon, more siblings likely on the way and my mother’s family’s tendency to produce twins, that they’d probably need a station wagon. My father, having spent years in France and Africa, immediately gravitated towards a Peugeot 505. They liked it a lot, but left the dealership a bit worried about how much longer Peugeot would be around in the US.
Since they lived in New England at the time (and my maternal grandfather owned a P1800, too), the natural next step was Volvo. My father was expecting to be disappointed, but ended up loving to 745 and admitted he’d prefer it to the 505 even if Peugeot’s US operations had good long-term prospects. It was swift and had a wonderful interior for 1988, and it would be considered nimble in any era—he still raves about its turning radius and handling.
That said, an old Volvo can be expensive—we ended up inheriting a Town Car and decided to trade in the Volvo at age six, but my uncle kept his 240 going for 19 years, but that was out of sentimentality, not financial good sense (and it was also risky—at least in Chicago there’s something of a black market in stolen 240 parts, and my uncle would sometimes return to his car to find a part missing).
The car he replaced it with was a bug-eyed 2002 Impreza (with the 2.5L boxer for its extra low-end torque compared to the 2.0 and 2.0 turbo). He considers it the best car he’s ever owned, which is saying something since he has a picture of the 240 of his dresser. The old Impreza’s robust, fun to drive (he has a manual and treats the north side of Chicago like the Dakar Rally), and with good cargo room. He owns and rents a few properties and devoted gardener, so he can vouch for the usefulness of its interior space (I’ve joked that he’s turned it into a two-seater because he almost always has the seats folded down). I have no idea of how beaten up non-WRX second-gen Impreza wagons are, but if you can find one (and owners are loath to part with them) in good shape with under 100K I’d take it. [Edit: though, after reading through the other comments, that may be too close to what you already have, and my uncle’s doesn’t have too many miles. Coming from a family of urbanites where taking the train isn’t unusual and you can walk for most errands, I forget that 7K a year isn’t normal for most drivers.]
I also have a friend who’s doing well with an ancient (well, 1987) Mercedes 420SEL—particularly since he has no mechanical experience (and isn’t an electrician, either), I fully expected him to try it for a few months before returning to daily-driving his Civic. But he’s been keeping it going for almost two years now, and I think the car’s in better shape today than when he bought it. He’s put some money in it, but less than I expected, and it’s a very nice, buttoned-down car. So, contrary to my expectations, if you can find a good example from that era of Mercedes it can actually work out well.
In a similar boat at the moment, coincidentally. My wife’s van/family van is now up to 175k miles and I’m certain sooner than later with the daily (ab)use it gets, a replacement will be needed. I’m struggling because we need something that fits three kids + gear + dogs (at times) so my options in my head right now are:
1.) Keep it and plan for expensive motor or trans replacement
2.) Replace with a new (or newer) van
3.) Buy a used Subaru (she doesn’t like them, but one trip in a WRX should convince her) and keep the van for trips
4.) Buy a used Suburban/Tahoe
I’m leaning heavily towards three as I don’t like new cars (killing 2), I like to wrench on cars (+1 for option 3) but I don’t like to wrench on cars when under pressure of needing it to cart family around the same day/tomorrow (-1 for 1, +1 for 3). We also already currently have two guzzlers, so having the option of something with a little better mileage would be nice (-1 for 4, +1 for 3 and 2).
Don’t know how well that works for you, but at the moment I’m heavily leaning towards a 5-7 year old WRX and keeping the van. Maybe keep the fixed Forester and add the Merc?
A Subaru Impreza Outback Sport, maybe? Or a mid 1990s Accord wagon?
What about a Saab Combi? A nice late-model 9-5 or the last of the 9-3s. Talk about great seats.
I miss those Saab wagons. Great choice.
I bought a 2013 Jetta SportWagen with the TDI and a 6 speed manual. I put on snow tires for the winter and so far so good. I like the interior and engine better than any of the Subaru’s. And the vinyl seats are perfect for comfort and keeping clean with two dogs.
There are so few true station wagons left in the U.S. I feel cool driving around in mine.
I am curious about the Volvo V60 finally arriving here next month in the U.S.- but it wont come with a a manual transmission or diesel engine options here. Sigh.
Long-time lurker, first time poster here.
I’d second the suggestion for a clean, well-cared-for ’06-’08 Forester. We bought a very nicely cared for ’08 at xmastime of 2011, had 71k on it, looked virtually new. Truly the best car we could have gotten.
Just took a 6,755-mile road trip (51 days, from 9/1 to 10-21) in it, and she performed and drove like a champ. Drove from Austin, TX out to San Diego, and then up the PCH the entire way, into Oregon…turned right at Florence and went through your town ;-), up to the Columbia Gorge, across Idaho and into Wyoming to the Tetons, back down through Utah and Arizona, then back home. The only “incident” was a tire-warning light that came on for awhile after some “off road” adventure in California, but once the tires were re-inflated to door-sticker pressure, it went away. I’m a stickler for “dealer maintenance” with her, to the point of stopping at the Subaru dealer in Boise for an oil change.
As long as they are maintained, this particular incarnation of the Forester is the best value, as far as I can see. This one’s got 86k on the odometer now, and still looks and drives like new.
The head-gasket issue was pretty much taken care of with the ’02 year models, from what I understand. I have a friend with an ’02 Forester that has not had a single issue with it, save for an air-conditioning problem a couple of years ago. Hers was nearly totaled in a wreck (T-boned in the passenger side), but they opted to repair it and keep it, since it has been such a stalwart car for them.
From an aesthetics point of view, I think Subaru really messed up, design-wise, with the ’09 year and later, and this years’ models just look too much like an 80s-kid’s plastic toy (sadly, so do most other cars nowadays…I don’t want to drive a “Transformer”…too old for that!). Our ’08 is (imho) the last “sensibly designed” looking Forester, and will likely be the “last good car” I have to buy.
Best of luck, whatever you decide. I stumbled upon CC awhile back, and truly enjoy your efforts with the site.
Thanks! Yes, that’s one of the considerations on our list. In 170k brutal miles, our Forester has never let us down. And we’ve never had any major repairs, except for an axle shaft and a couple of rear wheel bearings, both fairly minor, really.
I wrote earlier (’06 5-speed, about 92K miles at present). Unfortunately, we know of two cases of relatively early gasket failure on two different ’03 four-cylinder cars purchased new: our neighbor’s Forester and our own Legacy (both also 5-speeds). In our case, the dealer noticed the leak – we were using an oil change coupon – and made the repair at no cost even though we were past 5 years; we hadn’t yet crossed 60K miles, so they stretched a point for us.
I would still advise a 2006-08 Forester if further research turned up a genuine decrease in reports of gasket failure versus the earlier cars.
That generation of Foresters does seem preferable. I’m a Forester fan, considering that it’s the only Asian auto I’ve ever chosen to buy. Properly tuned, they’re certainly sportswagons themselves. But they will never have the solidity & serenity of a German car at speed. In most VWs, including the Tiguan and JSW, every surface you touch will be nicer. The stereo will sound better, partly because it’s not struggling to make up for the car’s excessive wind noise. I’m sure you know the drill here…
That’s why I’m sorry that the SAAB-Subaru hookup didn’t proser and flourish. SAAB had just what Subaru needed the most– style, comfort, ergonomics and several pounds more sound insulation. If it wasn’t so small, I’dm probably be driving a 9-2x these days!
But there was no SAAB-Subaru hookup as such – it only appeared that way because at the time, GM owned 100% of SAAB and something like 18% of Fuji Heavy Industries. Nonetheless I think the 2nd-gen Impreza turbo wagon made a pretty convincing SAAB.
Well, if you would like my Two Cents, here it is…
As you may recall, I purchased a 2012 Escape a couple of years ago. It’s a four cylinder four wheel drive XLT model. It currently has a touch over 27000 miles on it, and the only issue I have had was that the transmission started slipping, and it turned out that all it needed was a computer reflash, it’s been perfectly fine otherwise. It does quite well on gas, it has lots of room, good visibility, a tight turning radius, and there is plenty of room under the hood to do maintenance. Seeing how domestics aren’t that popular where you are, I bet you could get a CPO example very cheaply! The new Escape does nothing for me, plus it has too much new tech and has been having teething problems.
If I was to go VW, I’d want the TDI, as I feel that is the one thing that makes a VW appealing, at least to me. And I think the Sportwagen is a looker.
Lastly, the current CR-V really seems like a nice little wagon.
That’s all I have… 🙂
Don’t believe everything you read on the internet concerning domestic cars not being popular on the left coast. There is more to the left coast than CA. The Escape is very popular in the PNW and the command a good price.
For fun I looked up a 2012 Escape Hybrid CPO with 12K and plugged in a couple of different zip codes.
Portland and Seattle were the highest of the cities I checked
$25 more than St Louis
$300 more than in Chicago or Detroit
CA does support the stereotype though as the value in LA or San Fransisco is about $500 less than Seattle and Portland.
Hi Paul,
I know I’m late to this [arty but I’ve been to another (its that time of year and an odd day for your birthday).
If you were in the UK, and assuming you want something beyond the regular hatch but not the full MPV, I’d be suggesting the Ford C-Max or maybe S-Max.
Under UK law though, I am obliged to suggest a Range Rover Evoque, just in case you might actually want one.
But the old Volvo or Benz estate appeals a lot more. The 850XC always looked good to me. Or maybe a SAAB 9-5 estate or an MG ZT-T?
The S-Max is a great looker, as is the Evoque – and I think Paul may be one of the rare few who’s actually tall enough to see over the waistline of the Evoque!
AN MG ZT-T is an interesting choice. If it was the ZT 260 with the Mustang V8 it’d be cheap to service in the States as well!
We do get the C-Max in the US though only in Hybrid and Plug-In Hybrid versions.
I say forget about anything Forester-like, and just pick up something CC-Detroitish; say, a minty ’72 Ford LTD, if you can find one!
Late to the party again. Happy New Year everyone!
I struggle with the same issue. Our 2007 Caravan gets the job done for now, but what would I replace it with? Probably another Caravan just for utility and value, but the daily driver type vehicles that call to me these days are:
Jeep Cheokee XJ
1st Generation Subaru Forester
Lincoln LS
What they have in common is nice open greenhouse and availability of manual transmission which i really like, but depressingly these are all getting pretty old now. For a new vehicle I don’t know, like the Ford Edge my FIL keeps trying to sell me most new vehicles are big outside and small inside. 2011 Ford Escape? It’s available with a manual for me, and automatic for others..
Hey Paul, our family’s old 1975 Ford Ltd Landau Coupe would be perfect for you if still around. Everything you ever wanted in a car and I know how much you love big Fords from this era. Bought new from Tower Ford (Towson Ford was $100 more). The epitome of 1970’s brouhamy malaise. It had that stupid little window between the front door and the back window that looked awful and made no sense. Wheezy, plodding 400 under the hood, far slower than the ’69 390 it replaced. Hide a way headlights that would mysteriously open their own accord. The metallic silver finish was gone in three years. At least the cornering lights were cool.
On a serious note, how about a new/used Honda Pilot, or its Acura MDX kin if you’re in the mood for a more luxurious ride. Have both and they are bullett proof and trouble free. Plenty of room, decent power and mileage. The kinda of package Honda does best. Oldest son has a CRV, which seems to be just as reliable as the Pilot in a smaller package. All three exude a certain Oregon / Pacific Northwest vibe too.
Happy Hunting!