Following up my SAAB 900/Jeep Wagoneer COAL capsule, I seek your advice. I live in Michigan’s Keweenaw, a peninsula which juts into Lake Superior. We get over 200 inches of snow per year, and the road commission is not afraid to use copious amounts of salt. Rusty cars are a way of life here.
I normally use the SAAB as a winter daily driver. When I bought it, it was completely rust free. I am religious about washing and fluid-filming, but I am convinced any vehicle driven here will rust quicker than if it were in any other geographic area, except perhaps under water in the Dead Sea. After 5 winters, there is some surface rust on the undercarriage and engine compartment, and I had a body shop grind out some rust under a wheel arch molding.
The SAAB is truly unstoppable with a good set of winter tires (I use Nokians, Finnish tires for a Sweedish car). The town in which I live is set in a deep valley, and we have some seriously steep hills. Combining the long travel suspension, ground clearance, front weight bias, narrow tires, and whatever black magic SAAB engineers baked into the car, The SAAB does a great Tenzing Norgay impression. I keep a tow strap and come-along handy, and have rescued my fair share of cars, trucks, and vans buried in drifts. Karma and all that.
This is the first winter I have owned the Jeep. It has been restored, and is completely rust free. I imagine with a good set of winter tires, I would be pretty killer in the snow. When I bought it, I didn’t intend on driving it in the winter. I am afraid if I pull it out, it will turn a pile of iron oxide. I know these rigs have a predilection toward early and profuse rustage. I doubt the body is galvanized.
But, I keep looking upon it, parked in the garage, and it is calling out, saying “life is short, drive me; I was made for the snow, made to be driven”. I could die tomorrow, and then who cares if the Jeep is still pristine. On the other hand, if I preserve it, I will have a nice classy summer driver for the rest of my life (I am 29), or however long fossil fuels are available.
I must confess, I have never been very good with the concept of delayed gratification. What would you do?
That’s a nice looking old Jeep. I see some well-oxidized specimens of that vintage around my way (New England) on occasion, but not many in that condition.
My recommendation, for what it’s worth, is to drive it, especially in the snow. That’s what vehicles are for, and that thing should be great in the snow.
Rust prevention treatment and washing will buy you some time, and you can repair the rust as you go along if you like. Also, body panels should be available.
I hadn’t really thought about this before, but I wonder if it is more economical to repair rust as it becomes apparent, or to wait until large areas need replacement. Certainly, structural rust on a unibody vehicle should be addressed, but is it worth the trouble to do small rust repairs along the way?
In theory if you can get rust completely out of a small spot you prevent that spot from expanding into a big mess, getting into structure and reaching the point of “too far gone”.
Other than really rare and valuable cars there is no economic sense in tackling major rust repair, that’s a time consuming, labor intensive tens of thousands of dollar proposition. The economical way to repair rust is to buy a car without it.
Use the Jeep in summer only. I bet the Saab is easier to replace. For example you could find a galvanized Audi when the Saab has turned into crumbles.
I was going to say how cars are made for driving, and if not, why have them and all that. But halfway into typing I realized…no. Don’t do it. The Jeep will begin dissolving the second it sees snow. You cannot stop it. Save it for an off road excursion in warm weather. Find some other way to enjoy it’s immense off road abilities. But salt will eat it. Fast. I once got an ’82 Wagoneer from Wyoming where unpainted steel can sit for decades and barely corrode. But the Wagoneer managed a couple of rust holes. I think if you use your Jeep in the salt you will be thinking every second of how to undo the damage and it will be not worth whatever fun it will be.
Since I just lost my best friend in a car accident last week(He was almost 32) I suggest go-ahead and use the Jeep any time you feel like it.our life is the most precious thing and we can loose it at any second.just enjoy life.
I am sorry for your loss.
Sorry to hear that. Condolences.
I live in an area that has a comparable environment to you. I’d recommend not driving the Jeep in winter if you want to preserve it. It is not as rust resistant as the Saab, and depending on the quality of the restoration work, it may actually be more susceptible to rust. For example, if it had welded in panels, the area of the welds are more rust prone. As good as 4WD vehicles can be in snow, unless you invest in snow tires, a lighter FWD car with snow tires might be safer overall. 4WD gives great forward traction, but doesn’t help much for braking or turning. I run 4 winter tires on my 4WD truck and it makes a huge difference.
I am not sure how far it is for you to make the Canadian border, but I’d suggest you look into getting your vehicle rust proofed by Krown, Rust Check or Corrosion Free. I have used fluid film and it’s okay, but in my experience Krown is superior. My dad’s old ’76 Malibu was purchased used and was rust free as it had never seen winter. It was his daily driver and needed to be used in winter. He got the car oil sprayed twice a year when he drove it year round and it survived relatively unscathed. Luckily it hasn’t seen a winter in a decade though, and it should never see one again.
Vince, it looks like there’s a Krown franchise in Fort Worth Indiana, about a 3 hour drive from Chicago where the salt flows like water. You think it’s worth it to take a trip for a modern car (2018 Encore)?
I have used Krown for over 20 years on every car that I have owned in that time, so I am a believer. It is the most effective thing I have every seen at preventing rust on a car driven in a salty environment. If you plan to keep your car for a while, I’d recommend doing it. That said, the stuff isn’t perfect. It is messy, and will drip for a couple of days after applied. They also drill some holes to spray inside the body panels (they do use factory access points when available), but these are capped afterwards. It is messy and it sometimes some residue will run out of the door drains and crevices. It’s not hard to clean-up, but some people don’t think its worth the mess.
Vince, thanks for the reply! I’ve also passed it on to a friend with a new car as well who is very rust-averse due to his old Impala rust issues (the W-bodies around here all have a hole just back from the front wheel well on the rocker.)
It’s 70 miles straight across Lake Superior from there. Several hours east to Sault Sainte Marie.
Having spent my college years up in Houghton, they usually use salt only at the beginning and end of season. During the season, they usually use sand on the roads and do not plow to pavement (even on the San Francisco-like hills). My suggestion, use the Jeep with the 4×4 during the bad snow days and the Saab during the lighter days (it snows almost everyday during the winter, September through May, sometimes June).
These days, they use heavy salt on Memorial Drive, Sheldon and Montezuma, all winter long. College Ave. and the hills, not so much.
Your snow pictures look like they might be late spring. I used to work with a fair number of Keweenaw escapees and they would show me winter pictures where the drifts on both sides of the sidewalk were over 6′ tall. Only one wanted to go back home once he retired, the rest said NO WAY.
I would drive the Jeep on the snow days that could use its attributes well. You don’t salt much up there (mostly sand if I remember correctly), so I would think oxidation wouldn’t be as bad as below the bridge.
Drive the Saab in the winter and the Jeep in the summer. I think the Jeeps forte would be offroad more than the snow/salt mix while the Saab was designed to be in the snow half its life, especially if it has seat heaters.
And as someone above noted, the Saab will be easier to replace, either with another one or a galvanized Audi quattro of some sort from when they were built more solidly, i.e. before ’96. If you can keep a Saab on the road, an Audi won’t be any more difficult.
The Jeep at this point, if in good condition and kept that way, is actually appreciating in value. No ABS, no stability control, a crash structure designed in the 60’s (50’s?) – besides mass and an off-road oriented 4WD system with likely inferior tires to the Saabs, it doesn’t have much to recommend it over the Saab in the winter (which I realize doesn’t have stability control either).
I would disagree that the Wagoneer was designed for snow. The Saab was. The Jeep was designed to have some off road capability, which means you get good ground clearance and 4wd which can be handy.
I live in Minnesota and have access to a Suburban and a Fiesta. The Fiesta has crappy all season tires, but I think with good winter tires, in 9 winter situations out of 10, it would be better than the Suburban. The Suburban really only has a very occasional advantage in deep snow, or pulling away on packed frozen snow in a parking lot or whatever.
Deep down, I bet it actually feels good now to look at the Wagoneer in the garage, longing to drive it – personally, watching it crumble because I insisted on driving it in winter would leave me beating myself up over my decision.
But it’s yours!
Store the Jeep until the salt and snow are gone and enjoy it both on and off road during the spring, summer and fall. The SAAB was built with winter in mind. It’s served you well so far, and it’ll continue to serve you well as long as you keep on top of body and mechanical maintenance.
Neither. The Jeep will rust instantly and the Saab won’t be far behind. Find a beater Civic\Corolla for the winter.
You’re in the midwest, and the UP at that. The sad truth is once the rust starts, it’s all over. Sure you can wash it every night, but you still have to drive home, so unless you happen to have a car wash at your house, you’ll still end up with salt underneath.
Of course you can slow the process, but unless you literally keep it garaged from October to May, rust is an inevitability. If you want a rust free car, you’re in the wrong part of the country.
I live in Ontario, and we have similar snow-salt-rust situation. I’ve owned 4 Jeeps (still have two) and, seriously I just bought a Volvo S70, this week as a winter car instead of driving a Jeep that I already own.
Don’t drive the Wagoneer in winter. They are valuable collector cars now, and rust free ones are getting rare. My dad bought one new years ago and it only took 7 winters to destroy it.
My other Jeeps (2 XJ’s) did the same. I soaked them in oil and grease which slowed the rust but didn’t stop it. They still rusted, especially the rockers because, despite being galvanized, still rusted from the inside out.
Your Jeep is no different. Winter will wreck its value and condition. My 4th Jeep is a Scrambler which is also collectible, and it never sees winter.
I’m a big fan of Swedish cars for winter. Their FWD, excellent handling, powerful heaters and rust resistance make then super winter cars, no 4wd needed.
I may be the only one here who’s owned both, living in heavy snow country, Vermont. We’ve had 10 SAABs since the first ’67 96 in 1971, and presently still have 4 in the family: ’84 Turbo, ’87 900, ’99 9-3, and ’07 9-3 SportCombi Aero. We also had an ’87 Grand Wagonneer. We had a 1000 ft driveway that rose over 100′ in elevation, and my wife used it to commute 40 mi each way through Vermont winters. A QuadraTrac or manual 4wd (ours was QuadraTrac) Jeep Wagoneer is unstoppable, the only thing that stops one is an empty gas tank, a regular occurence at 10 mpg with the AMC 360 V8. Who cares about the Jeep’s “collectibility”, Safety First, and salt be damned, use it as it was intended to be used,. SAABs are great fwd cars but no comparison in capability to a Grand Wagoneer in snow. BTW a weak point on C900s is where the bottom A arm attaches to the body, unsafe and very difficult to repair properly.
Who cares about Jeep collectibility? The market does, hence their value. And OP does, hence his post. These Wagoneers when in excellent condition like this have crossed the threshold from a winter beater to a collectible.
It sounds as if OP does not have the money to buy a procession of new 4×4’s as you do, so the longevity of his investment means a lot to him. In this case its reasonable to sacrifice the less valuable Saab to preserve the more valuable Jeep.
Cars are tools that are meant to be used, and they can be repaired. Those Jeeps are not particularly rare or irreplaceable. The last new car we bought was in 1974.
Keep the Jeep safe. I bought a 14 year old grand Cherokee that had been stored winters. I ended up scrapping it after its 4th winter due to a massive wiring meltdown.
By that point in spite of religious cleaning and spraying the undercarriage, the Jeep had rust in both rockers and the driver’s floor was due for replacing.
If I had to do it over again I would winter store it or at least only drive it on winter days where the only thing moving are 4x4s.
Must mention that the Grand Wagoneer was eventually replaced only because of the horrible gas mileage mentioned, as good care kept it solid, and safety always trumped expense, in our book. As my wife practices Family and Internal Medicine she must be able to get to her office under any conditions, no matter what, and must have 4wd living where we do.
The ’87 Jeep was succeeded by, in order: ’94 Montero, ’98 Trooper, ’05 Xterra, ’11 Xterra. All super capable, but the Nissan X is probably the best: the amazing 4.0 VVT VQ V-6 (on Wards 10 Best Engines list longer that any other engine) pushing 4500 lbs can still get over 20 mpg on the highway, and the short-ish wheelbase and height makes it super off-road as well when our son takes it hunting in the mountain wilds of Vermont and the remote parts of the Adirondacks.
I’m in the rust best and I cringe when I see a vehicle like either of yours out on the roads when there’s slush and salt out. Granted, they are your vehicles so do with them as you want, but think of yourself as the caretakers of them. The Wagoneer will last forever if it’s taken care of. I’d probably get a beater and keep both of the vehicles off the roads when it’s really bad, though as others have mentioned, the Saab will do a reasonable job at keeping the rust at bay, but the rust will eventually win.
If you do want to have fun with the Wagoneer, you might find out if there are any offroad trails around you could take it out on. Or perhaps some side roads after a blizzard before they get plowed. Snow, by itself, is just water and it isn’t really going to hurt that much on its own. It’s the salt you need to keep away from it.
I would park the Jeep if I were you. I live in West Michigan (lower peninsula), Not sure how body shops are in the U.P. but body shops here will not touch rust, only accident damage. You can enjoy that jeep for a lot more years if you do.
And maybe you can make the Jeep a family heirloom to pass to your children.
Bob
I personally gravitate toward ‘living’ museums, such as Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome, where they roll out their 1908 Bleriót XI and fly it… that’s what it was made for, after all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNKVYLTpzB0
If your Jeep were the Last One, well, maybe it would be better to put it behind glass for future generations to look at. But they’re not exactly rare, and if you enjoy driving it, and want to enjoy it to the full, then protect it as much as you can and then go drive it in the snow!
Folks have different use cases for their cars – some want to minimize miles and keep them pristine, perhaps for resale value, others bought them to consume, either for the pleasure they give, or simply because they want to get from A to B. All of those are valid use cases. It’s all ‘wood, hay and stubble’ in the end, anyway.
Love that Saab. Seriously Swedish!
I live in southeastern Ontario and the salt here is pretty heavy. Bought my 2007 Focus wagon in spring 2016 and it was rust-free then, obviously the previous owner had taken care of it. I have since had it Rust Checked every fall (this being the 3rd one) and it’s still rust free; even the rocker panels, a weak spot for those models, is solid.
Good luck with that Jeep whatever your decision. I have always liked those big old Wagoneers and hope yours lasts a long, long time.
Personally I’d garage both and buy something that sucks for the winter 😉 but that’s probably not very reasonable.
Definitely keep that Jeep pristine! I’d also say it’s worth getting professional rustproofing on it simply bc those Jeeps can corrode from the salt *in the air* in the Salt / Rust Belt. Preserve it, drive the crap out of it from May-September, and pass it on. They are getting rarer, and yours is really sweet.
“I am 29”
“What would you do?”
You are young enough to move somewhere better.
People like the west. I’ve known salt and snow in Wisconsin. And I left that in my twenties. The west is better for many reasons but one is that there is no salt on the roads and cars survive longer. The phrase “dry western car” is used in Hemmings for a reason. Just don’t let the sun get to your interior.
When I was 29 I had too many family obligations to move anywhere.
Like all Card-Carrying Car Guys. I hate salt. On the other hand, two days ago the Philly to NYC corridor had a surprise snowstorm. Instead of the forecast light coating and a little sleet, we got 4 to 8 inches in the middle of the day. Because we weren’t expecting it and it is so early in the season for us, the salt trucks weren’t mobilized and the roads weren’t pre-brined the night before. The result was massive gridlock and chaos. People were trapped for hours on freeways blocked by accidents. My neighborhood was full of buses and trucks stuck on barely noticeable upgrades. We can live without salt, but we will have to accept more travel disruption. Or go back to chains and studded tires.
Modern traffic doesn’t move without salt. Salt makes modern winter travel possible. Without it we have winter gridlock. Chains and studded tires are only good until you get stuck behind the guy who doesn’t have them. It takes only one vehicle to get stuck sideways to block a road. After that happens you can’t get a bulldozer through.
Once you start driving a 4×4 in the winter you won’t want to go back to a car for winter driving. But that Jeep sure is nice. But then vehicles need regular exercise also. So I would drive the Jeep. And blasting through snowdrifts is a lot of fun. FJ Cruiser owner here.
I vote NO winter driving for the Wagoneer!
A rust free Grand Wagoneer is not a cheap used vehicle, it’s a legitimate collector vehicle. If you paid market price for it, I’m sure it wasn’t inexpensive. I had one when I lived in Vermont in the 80’s and can tell you first hand that they are plenty rust prone. I susbscribe to the caretaker view when it comes to classsic cars. Quality classics are a limited commodity that we are responsible to take care of while they are in our possession for a limited time. That’s my take, which is at odds with my otherwise more libertarian opinions.
Resist the urge! If you can’t resist, I’d advise to only take it out in fresh snowstorms on roads or nonroads that aren’t plowed or have solid packed snow. Don’t dare drive it on salted roads with slush or melting snow or anything liquid on them. That sounds complicated…best to just not drive it.
I bought a new Honda Pilot 1 1/2 years ago as a tow car for our camper. Even though it is AWD I park it for the winter. We have 2 2007 Ford Focuses with snow tires to get us through winter. The Focuses are holding up well rust wise. I’m not spending the money to get snow tires for the Pilot and not going to trash all our cars in the salt. In the end your Wagoneer will be worth more than my Pilot.
Take care of that Jeep and it will serve you for years!
Given the Jeeps reputation for rust, I would have it nice and dry in the garage over winter.
The Saab seems much more able to deal with these conditions, and you seem to be on top of the winter maintenance.
Could you really stand to see the Jeep corrode before your very eyes ?
A few thoughts on the rust issue and your vehicles. As mentioned above, try to save the Jeep for the future and avoid all salt. Even at that, I would still have it oiled or Krowned yearly as I can feel the dampness in your parking structure from my couch. My daily is an ’02 Focus, and even here in Windsor, Ontario, we have 5 0r 6 months of salt stained hell. The car gets oiled yearly (make sure it is a complete treatment of all inner body cavities, and not just some brief underneath coating). Whenever the car is in the garage for its oil changes, I get underneath with a spray can and flashlight, touching up all the spots that might have gone dry with a quick squirt. The car gets waxed at least twice a year, and any spots that have started to rust get attended to. My oldies are put into a barn for the Winter, and the oil spray helps with any moisture issues from storage, and ( I hope) deters mouse involvement. Hope that helps. It is a messy process, and it doesn’t hurt to let the vehicle drip somewhere safe for about a week or so. Some of my older cars have been oiled for 30 years and still stay decent, so I think that it works.
Attached is a picture of the “Frog” in all of its salt-stained glory
Thanks for the advice. I love the focus; you have kept it nice. I learned to drive on my mom’s 2003 zx3, with the 5 speed, zetec, and no other options but cruise control. It was a great little car. My grandmother had a 2003 sedan with the automatic, non zetec, and power windows/locks. No cruise control. Good it its own way.
The Jeep is supposed to be moved to a u-haul locker, parked on cardboard, with 2 containers of damp-rid. But, I waited too late and now salt is on the roads. I will have to try to make it over when we get fresh powder and before it is salted.
The Focus has been really good to me. Seven years and about 70k miles for a $2500 car. It has the 5 speed and a fair load, and still doesn’t burn any oil with 130k miles on the clock. Attached is a better picture.
I felt your pain whilst heading out to my barn this a.m. to bait all my little mousey friends. We’ve had about an inch of snow last night, and the folks are out salting everything. Rock salt was pinging off of the car bottom all the way home. Tis the end of the ’18 old car season.
If it were mine? I would take Vince’s advice on the Krown oil spray and maybe take it out occasionally – in fresh snow when there is no salt down yet.
Having lived with my share of rusty cars, I would do everything you can to keep the brown monster away.
I can relate very directly to this. I’ve got my very well preserved 1996 4Runner that would seem like a perfect winter vehicle, I even have snow tires for it and it is absolutely pickled in fluid film (using a special wand to do the inside of the frame especially), but i keep it out of the salt as much as possible. I make it a point to have a fwd/AWD beater for the winter, this year it’s my 2001 A4 Quattro that I just put cheap hankook snows on. I would keep your keep out of the snow, AND I’d fluid film it
Sacrifice the Saab. Use it as a parts car when it gets too corroded and keep your eyes peeled for a low cost (corossion free) replacement 900 when the end is near. Find one that needs something replaced that is still good on the rust bucket that you can pick up cheap.
I’m a Michigan Tech. student, and I see both of these cars every now and then! They always stand out to me every time I pass by either the Saab or the Jeep.
I had a ’79 Wagoneer in Pennsylvania, it was a snow beast! I have had excellent success with a variety of rust prevention products. The key to success is to use them before rust starts, do correct surface prep, and wash frequently and intensively in winter.
Not driving a vehicle like a Jeep in it’s element is like the old people who put plastic covers on their furniture, who are you saving it for? They’re pigs to drive on dry pavement, so unless you do serious off-roading, and there’s far better vehicles for that, driving in snow is what it was meant for!
Having driven my 4Runner extensively in winter weather, including some serious winter storms on my way through Erie and Western NY to see family, an older SUV is not that great on slick highways when it’s not a question of ground clearance and chewing through deep snow, but one of stability in low traction situations at higher speeds. A low-COG sedan or crossover with more car-like ride and handling (snow tires in all cases) is honestly much less tiring to drive than my bouncy old SUV and its part-time 4wd system. Going wheeling out through the snow on seasonal access roads, sure, the 4Runner rocks there.
How are the axle tunnels on your Saab? My ’92 900 did not look bad from above, just a little bit on the wheel arch and hood lip, but much to my dismay, when I replaced the ball joints on the driver side, the axle tunnel crumbled into dust, leaving a giant hole in its place. I loved that car so much, but I don’t know how to weld and couldn’t afford to have it fixed. I really, really want another 900 for a project. I look forward to reading more about yours!
…And to answer your question, I’d drive the Saab. It’s reasonably safe, practical and fuel efficient, and good in the snow. Plus, it’s already got some rust started, so you don’t have to worry about spoiling a pristine car.