Much has been made about the size of the soon-to-be-replaced eighth-gen Accord. Needless to say, Accords have gotten quite a bit bigger since their 1976 debut, but just how much bigger are they? I recently spotted an example parked in front of our past-CC Crown Vic LX and pondered the question.
First, let’s take a look at the Crown Vic. It doesn’t look any worse for wear since its CC debut last March, but apparently it’s gotten a new set of non-whitewall tires. Pity.
I couldn’t help but check out that white leather interior again. It seems to have held up quite well.
Here’s the back seat–looks like it has seen very little use. As you know, I’m a sucker for a white interior. But back to the subject at hand…
If you scroll up to the very first picture, the Accord appears to be significantly larger. That’s an optical illusion, as the Vic still reigns supreme, size-wise. A 2007-2012 Accord has an overall length of 194.9 inches with a 110.2″ wheelbase; the Crown Victoria is 212″ long, with a 114.7″ wheelbase. Versus the Accord, it’s 17.1 inches longer overall, with a 4.5 inch-longer wheelbase.
I have ridden in the back of a 2008 Grand Marquis. It seemed to have decent room, though perhaps not as much as you might expect for a car of its size. The Accord might well have greater interior room (I’ve never driven or been a passenger in one), but by the good old nose-to-tail parameter the Vic is the winner, as made evident in the profile shot below. So now when someone tells you the Accord is bigger than a Panther, you can coolly inform them otherwise. Isn’t it fun to learn?
From a purely unscientific observation, I think that legroom in the back is pretty similar. I own a 93 Crown Vic, and periodically ride to lunch in a friend’s late model Accord. The big difference is that the Panther is significantly wider. Also, the Panther seems to have more front leg room and a larger trunk.
I suspect that a recent Taurus and an Accord may be a better comparison.
I love these random juxtapositions of cars on the street. It has taught me a lot about them, or at least opened up new ways of looking at them. The shocker was when a friend parked his then new Honda Civic next to my several year old Malibu Maxx, they appeared to be the same size! I still think of a Civic as a “small” car, where in reality it has grown to become a mid-sized car.
You mentioned the back seat of one of these Panther bodies; had you spent any real time in one, you would only recall it as a mobile torture chamber. I had the misfortune of having to help resolve my in-laws’ estate after my FIL died recently. We’re racking up a lot of miles on the my wife’s G6 (21st century Cockroach of the Road)(TM geozinger) and I wanted a Big ‘Ol Buick (TM geozinger) to take us and two of our close friends down to hillbilly heaven (Sevierville, TN). I was afraid the G6, while fairly roomy, would be hell on my buddy’s knees… I told my wife to specify a Buick LaCrosse or if we could get one, a Buick Lucerne. Avis said they had a Lucerne and would keep it for us.
When it came time to collect the BOB, Avis foisted a Crown Vic on us. Thanks Avis, your internal communications are working perfectly… Since it was that or a smaller car, she took the Crown Vic. Within the first 100 miles all of us were complaining about the front and back seats in “Grampa’s Car”, and we had 700 more miles to go!
The back seat in particular has too short of a cushion, and what appears to be a bar that runs across the length of the seat right about where your butt bone would be. My buddy Eric and I drove a GMC box van back to Michigan with my MILs possessions and we commented FREQUENTLY that the cheapo buckets in the GMC were far, far better than the bench back seat of the CV. That’s when you know a seat is bad, if a work van’s seats outshine them…
The 2012 Accord LX without the sun roof had 106 cubic feet is considered a large car by the government.
The 2013 LX lost about 3 cubic feet of space and is now 103.2
The 2008 Crown Vic was rated at 128 cubic feet.
There’s space and then there’s usable space.
The ’13 Accord is now 3.5 inches shorter, too.
A friend bought a used 2004 Mercury Marquis from an elderly relative whose husband had just died. I’ve ridden in it numerous times, and I never thought that the back seat was all that roomy or comfortable. Ease of entry-and-exit isn’t that hot, either. The back seat in my 2003 Accord sedan is better in every way.
The Panthers have abysmal legroom for their size, I’ve spent considerable time on road trips in a friend’s 93 Marquis, riding in both front and back.
It’s the typcial old-Detroit body profile of large engine bay and large trunk, not very space-efficient for the passengers.
The back seats of these are designed for criminal suspects . Jail level comfort!
As many of you know, Crown Vics were the taxicabs of choice for many years in NYC (and I guess probably many other American cities). Of course, they were compromised by taxi-spec vinyl seats and the partition, but it always seemed surprising to me how uncomortable and not at all roomy these cars were, considering the size. I felt like you just sank deep down into the low seat, and struggled to get out (even if you’re a normal, fit, relatively young adult!) The LWB improved the room, but of course they were just huge. As soon as other types of cabs (Escapes, etc) started hitting the streets, I always tried to hail one of them over the CV.
That’s my experience with Panthers, and that’s why for the life of me I can never understand the love for them around here.
+1 I’ve had the same experience, and feel the same way.
Let’s face it, the basic architecture of the passenger compartment goes back to the late seventies. Modern cars tend to be taller and have better basic configuration. But as far as I remember, I thought the GM B-Body was a bit better in that regard. Of course, it was designed with a bit more wheelbase from the beginning.
I think Ford went a bit too far in downsizing when the first Panther was designed, and it’s hampered its space utilization ever since. Well past time to go bye-bye.
Recall also that there was a stretched version of the Crown Vic that saw use in taxi fleets. The car had a several inch stretch in the rear passenger compartment. It was not noticable except to those of us who own one and noticed the longer rear doors.
Yes, I referred to the stretched model in my post as the “LWB”. It was definitely noticable, inside and out, and as big as it was, I thought the proportions were much better than the standard wheelbase car.
And jeez, as I re-read my post, I see how many typos I made. I need to proof more before I hit “post”!
Didn’t know they made a LWB Crown Vic, there was a Town Car L that I’ve seen several times, but never in a CV.
Yup there was a CV “L” too though only available with the taxi package starting in 2002 before they redid the frame. It like the TC “L” got a 4″ stretch which meant it had a 1″ longer wheel base than the standard TC and Ford had to make 4 separate frames, drive shafts, rear wiring harnesses, brake lines ect. I never understood why they just didn’t just the TC stuff for the CV “L”.
I had to Google it to find one, its less noticable than the Town Car L which had a kinds strange “limo” divider inbetween the doors.
I’ve never seen a “limo” divider in a TC L. Here is a picture of a TC L how it came from the factory.
No on the outside, the B-pillar was slightly wider with a Lincoln emblem in it.
None of the TC L versions I’ve ever seen were like that. Here is a 2005
TC-L started out with a stretched rear door but standard rear window glass. This required a wide opaque “plug” aft of the B-pillar (which looked like it’s part of the B-pillar, but it’s actually part of the rear door. Ford eventually invested in widened rear window glass. The new version was much less obviously stretched.
Thats it. There used to be companies that used to make mini-limos of cars like the Town Car and Fleetwood’s too in the 80’s, not a full limo, just an extra 6 or so inches on.
I have – check out ahalimos.com
The stretched Crown Vic is rarely seen outside of New York City, where it was a virtual necessity due to the huge space-robbing partitions used in NYC cabs,
The best Panther rear seats are in the 1990-97 Town Cars. They are higher and better shaped than in the 1998-2011 TC or any 1992-up Vic or Grand Marquis.
I like my 2005 Town Car a lot, but the drop-off in interior room, front and rear, versus the 1990-97 generation is noticeable — and greater in the real world than the numbers would suggest.
That is interesting since the 98 up CV/GM got thinner front seats to increase the rear leg room slightly, very slightly.
I’ve been in the back of a non-taxi, non-cop Crown Vic, and was shocked at how cramped the back seat was. I can only imagine what it would be like with a driver’s partition/shield. It makes it easier to be sympathetic for the Prius-driving cabbies where I live, since they aren’t actually depriving me of space versus the industry standard, and get to enjoy better fuel economy, lower maintenance, and absolutely fantastic reliability,
A co-worker has a new-ish Accord and I often ask her… “How do you like your Honda Impala?”
Although her dear departed mother drove Oldsmobiles so I should ask: “How do you like your Delta 88?”
What charm school did you matriculate from?
Her mother’s been gone a LONG time and she has a sick a sense of humor as I do. The fiend in question was even “best person” at my wedding.
I can’t believe how many of you and other pan the Panthers based on rear seat room. I don’t know about you but as the owner of a car I don’t spend much, if any, time in the back seat, I’m up front.
I do think that when Ford first did the “L” versions for 2002 they should have changed the wheel base on all with the all new frame for 2003 or at least given the lesser Panthers the TC wheel base and made all TCs the “L” version. They spent a lot of money making 2 new frames for 02 only to replace them after less than a full year of production. The also had to tool up produce and manage the inventory of a good chunk of new sheet metal for those longer floor pans, door, roof, glass and door panels. If you’ve ever looked under the hood they could have easily taken a good chunk out of the front overhang with the 03 redesign and kept the same or shorter overall length. There is room to slot the V10 under the hood w/o modification to the radiator location and there is a good 8-10″ of room between the AC condenser and the grille. So while I don’t really care that much about the rear seat room I think Ford could have spent their money a little wiser with the introduction of the “L” cars 1 year before the new frame and spent that money on making the 03’s all longer wheel bases and interiors and more significantly different front end sheet metal than their predecessors.
I think by the early 2000s Ford had completely given up on retail viability for the Panther platform and was only listening to the fleet side.
As for the nitpicking on the back seat room, as I said to Paul back on TTAC years ago, it’s like picking on the disabled kid. It’s a car platform that was last relevant in 1985 and should at least be acknowledged as a survivor and truly the last American car, full stop.
The Panther platform was certainly still considered relevant by Ford until the mid 2000’s. Otherwise they wouldn’t have invested so much money on a completely new frame and front suspension in 2003. Unfortunately they did not do anything to the body of the car at the same time to convey that to the retail buyers. They also should not have kept putting the old version of the 4.6 and the 4R7x transmission in it when they had more competitive power trains they were putting in their other vehicles. The initial success of Chrysler’s LX platform showed there was still a market for a large RWD sedan if it had more style and power.
What do you mean `initial’ success? The LX-based 300 is still the best US domestic luxury car available. Lincoln/Cadillac have nothing on this. Ford was not interested in the Panther at all, and was killing the platform though neglect. Only the huge fleet sales kept it afloat and worthy of investment in Ford’s eyes.
Sales of the LX cars in general dropped off significantly after the first couple of years.
I think that sales decrease then was due to Daimler pulling out and basically leaving Chrysler to be drawn and quartered by Cerberus. Whatever Cerberus was saying about `find, fix, and hold’, the general air of death surrounded Chrysler. Also, many initial buyers might have been swayed by the faux-Mercedes appeal of Chrysler in the Daimler years. Sales have been steady since then. While Chrysler got a boost with the immense publicity `Imported from Detroit’ gave them, the doubts are still there. At least FIAT is serious about running Mopar, given its own financial troubles. The real test will be to replace the LX platform with an all new full size RWD format. I’m not holding my breath, as this has been something even the General is struggling to do for Cadillac.
Agree entirely, although I suspect some of the dead space in front of the engine is there to help provide an effective crumple zone.
Some of the L series cars in livery use had folding desks/tables built into the rear seatbacks — like a ’66 Caddy Fleetwood Brougham but more useful. That should have been available on all L series cars from the factory, especially on Cartiers.
Another bit of L series trivia is that a sunroof is not available on the L series. I think the roof stamping is different enough in shape that Ford would have had to design a different sunroof setup for the L and they didn’t.
When I was shopping for my current TC (2005 model) in 2009, I found a very low mileage ’03 Cartier L for sale (last year for same), but the seller had an unrealistically high opinion of its worth. Book values for used L series aren’t that much different than an equivalent standard wheelbase TC. Maybe that’s not right, but if you are financing the purchase that’s what the bank will follow.
Since the majority of the TC L models were destined for Town Car duty and the only CVs were Taxi spec I can see why Ford didn’t bother offering the sunroof.
Try as I might I’ve never been able to find a TC L that wasn’t used for Town Car duty and thus didn’t have 250,000 or many more miles on it. Sure the 2v 4.6 will do 500,000 miles and the 4R7x can do 350,000 miles with a little maintenance I just can’t bring myself to pay as much as they are asking for a car with that many miles on it.
Here’s an ’01 Cartier L I spotted at the local Lincoln dealer last Sunday. 96K miles and they’re asking a bit south of 10K. It was in very nice shape.
http://strietermotorlincoln.com/Davenport/For-Sale/Used/Lincoln/Town-Car/2001-Cartier-L-Beige-Car/13530045/
That’s a rare one with that low of miles. Since this was first posted I did happen to find one with “only” 180K for $6800.
The 2003 frame and suspension work on these was always a head scratcher for me. Why do all of that work and spend all of that money and not update the power plant? (Marauder excluded)
@Sean… continuous improvement
The 4.6V8 got little changes almost year by year during its production. The last 4.6 built are much better engines than the first 4.6 built.
I’d have to disagree that the last 2v 4.6 as installed in the Panthers is “much” better than the original as I own/owned several versions of them. The bump in HP was pretty slim over the years and it never kept up with the HP ratings of the versions installed in other platforms. For example the 02 Explorer got 239 HP with it’s single exhaust and an aluminum block while the dual exhaust HPP equipped Panthers in 02 only got 235 HP and kept it’s iron block, those with the single pipe put out 220 which granted matched the dual exhaust version from it’s introduction a decade earlier. In 2006 the Explorer got a bump to 292 while the dual exhaust Panthers finally got 239hp. The best non-Maruader was only for the police and that was 250 hp. The new frame and front suspension for 2003 did allow for the 6qt truck oil pan to be used though.
The only updates to the CV 4.6 after 2002 was additional spark plug threads(4 vs 8 thread) and emissions control updates. All output differences came from Computer calibrations and exhaust systems.
I too never understood why the 2V engine was used for so long when virtually every other application moved to the 3V by 2006. All mounting is the same, accessories are the same, oil pans interchange, and clearance shouldn’t be an issue in the large tall panther bay so investment would be minimal.
I think there was some problem regarding stripped/missing threads that prompted the plug change. Otherwise, it was a case of death by neglect. If Ford kept updating Panther, fleets would have kept buying them, and the vicious cycle for Ford would have continued. It is sad Mulally thought the Panther was a vicious cycle, but that is history.
The problem was the PI heads which were late to the Panther platform anyway. The earlier heads didn’t have the problem and once they doubled the number of threads in the PI heads, as mentioned above, they stopped the problem.
Yes the 292 HP engine from the Explorer would have dropped right in though it might have needed a different intake but otherwise it would fit w/o problem. The 5sp used in the Explorer will also fit, some of the CrownVic.net guys have done it. I’m really shocked that it didn’t make it into the Marauder since it backed the same basic engine in the Aviator.
The 6sp that backed the 3v in the Explorer would also have fit and when they put that combo in there the MPG ratings went up by 1 across the board so it would have helped the CAFE numbers too.
Wow. It’s amazing how sleek and compact the 8th gen Accord suddenly looks when you park it next to a Panther. “Sleek” and “compact” are not words I ever thought I’d use to describe an 8th gen Accord. I hate that thing. I spent 11 years in a 6th gen Accord, first as a passenger, then as a driver. The bloat of the two succeeding generations was absolutely unnecessary; the interior of my car was perfectly sized. On the other hand, the seats sucked and the mileage was laughable.
Still I’d take any Accord over a Panther. The ’70s-throwback novelty of driving a Crown Vic wears out after about 5 minutes.
Compact, yes, but sleek, no. The Accord looks like a misshapen blob compared to the sharp, lithe Panther. It is too tall for its length, and the dimensions would have worked better as a minivan or a thirties-style fastback. I’m not arguing against the much better space utilisation in the Honda, but the cost in design is too high. I’d much prefer if they gave up the pretense of a `three-box’ sedan and instead made a Xbox-like breadbox. Even the Prius has aerodynamics as a justification for its ugly design. This has nothing.
How tall is the driver of that Vic?! The steering wheel is practically in the seat back.
The front seats seemed pretty comfy in these from my experience. The back? Well, the only time I rode in the back of one of these was sitting on a molded plastic “bench” in absolute discomfort.
Hard to find a comfortable sitting position with your hands behind your back…
That is why there are dents in the ABS perp seat for the CV. I actually have one, went to the local county auction and the auctioneer after getting no bids even after dropping the starting price down to $1 said alright I’ll even give you the $1 so I put my number up and he motioned to me to come up and he handed me a dollar bill. I guess he didn’t like the idea of not being able to sell everything.
The interesting thing is when I got it home I noticed the thin foam pad on the bottom was pulled up slightly and there was a bump under it. Pulling it back revealed a make shift needle. I’m guessing the cop missed it in the guys back pocket and he some how managed to get it out and stuff in under that pad.
No joke!
That was back when the Great State of Illinois could suspend your DL for an EPA violation. It didn’t matter that the car was sold or that you surrendered the plates. The IL-EPA thought you still owned the car.
Did not know the frame and front suspension on ’03-up CV’s were “upgraded”. How so? The last time I went to a new auto show was 4 or 5 years ago. Most all makes were represented (Mercedes didn’t show up), so I spent all day looking over and sitting in what the automotive world had to offer. My favorites were, #3: Volkswagan Passat, but I didn’t like the quasi-Audi grille. #2: Saab 9-5, very nice and comfortable. And the winner was at #1: Mercury Grand Marquis. With all the innovation, style, and performance from all over the world, an essentially 50 year old design won me. I surprised myself. Easy ingress and egress, extremely comfortable (like sitting on a couch, I HATE center consoles), reliable and powerful powertrain, relatively low price, inexpensive maintenance and repair, full frame, big trunk, trailering capable, tough as nails reputation, and an American nameplate.
I had a married couple as clients once, She drone a Benz E-class sedan, he drove a M-class SUV. One day, she was driving the M-class and he had a Grand Marquis; she said she wrecked the sedan and the Mercury was a rental. I asked why was he driving the rental and she driving his SUV. She said, with sincerity, “I wouldn’t be caught dead driving that car”. He rolled his eyes, and we laughed. They eventually divorced.
Not surprising most people think the same frame and suspension was used from 1979 to the last 2012 export only models.
The frame was an all new hydroformed unit rather than box sections formed by welding to “C” channels together. The front suspension went to a bolt in aluminum cross member that also carries the engine mounts and steering rack. The front suspension itself consists of unequal length control arms and coil overs. The only chassis parts that carried over from the new for 98 chassis was the rear suspension other than the axle housing and shafts which was widened about 4″ overall to accommodate the ~2″ offset wheels needed by the new front suspension.
Fact is there were 4 significantly different chassis over the Panther’s lifespan though they only bothered to make 1 significant body change and thus didn’t make the general public think that anything significant changes were made.
> Fact is there were 4 significantly different chassis over the Panther’s lifespan though they only bothered to make 1 significant body change and thus didn’t make the general public think that anything significant changes were made.
Following in the VW’s footsteps? VW’s Nordhoff had something similar to say about car manufacture.
Our 1990 Plymouth Acclaim had more back seat legroom than a 1990 Roachmobile© (caprice), better designed back door openings, too.
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