(First posted 6/9/2013) After writing off my VW GTI and cycling through three different rental cars in as many weeks, the insurance check finally arrived and it was once again time for my favorite activity, car shopping!
Over the next two weekends, my friend and I must have driven several hundred miles and looked around at many dozens of dealerships and car lots throughout the San Francisco Bay area. I had nothing specific in mind, only that I did not want a new car, and that I had a larger budget than I did the last time.
Eventually we found ourselves at Stanford Cadillac, in Menlo Park, not exactly where I would have imagined finding my next car. But there it was, a 1988 Buick LeSabre T-Type, in Ruby Red Metallic–and with only about 32,000 miles on the odometer, it still looked, felt, and smelled brand-new.
I’m not quite sure what drew me to it. Perhaps subconsciously, I wanted a larger car after having wrecked a smaller one, but then again, sporting a fairly aggressive front end, body-color rear spoiler, and large, five-spoke wheels didn’t hurt. I’ve always really liked this generation of H-body in Buick form, especially in the grille treatment, the large headlights, and that huge, reverse-opening clamshell hood.
Despite that fantastic exterior (which I find extremely attractive to this day), things inside were a little less exciting. The dash was pretty square, and looked kind of “old-ish” to me. The leather-covered, three-spoke steering wheel neverthless was quite large, and always made me feel a little like Sterling Marlin sawing away behind the wheel around Daytona. However, the interior room in both front and rear was amazing–and it was so quiet, my own little sensory-deprivation chamber on wheels.
As I mentioned, it had extremely low mileage and had been owned by one local owner who had traded it in on a Cadillac. The salesman was very polite and courteous, and soon we were engaged in a very polite discussion about price. It took about a half-hour for us to agree on $8,800; I wrote them a check, and they gave me the keys.
Now, I’ve bought a lot of cars, but this purchase still stands out as one of the absolute best dealer experiences I’ve ever had when buying a car, which simply does not have to be as confrontational and annoying as it usually is. In the meantime, my friend, being of a certain age, had been busying himself by looking at every Cadillac in the showroom. I think I was the only person on the lot not “of a certain age”, and on that day I probably skewed that dealership’s average buyer age down significantly. After they’d cleaned up the car, my buddy took the picture at the top of the page.
Of course, as soon as I got it I immediately embarked on a trip south to San Luis Obispo to show it to my girlfriend, who had no clue about what it was even after I described it. When she saw it, she gave me kind of a “WTF” look, then gingerly sat down inside, and we went for a ride. She admitted that it was nice, and never made fun of me for driving a brand that, truth be told, would not be the first choice of most other 23-year-olds back then. A keeper!
Like all T-Types, mine was powered by the legendary Buick 3800, in this case the revised 1988 version. It wasn’t supercharged, but man, it had lots of pep! It also had very eager throttle response, a great sound, and was astonishingly light on fuel. Later that year my little brother moved in with me temporarily, and he absolutely loved borrowing the car for his long freeway commute to work on days I was able to catch a ride with a coworker. It was light-years removed from his mid-80s Ford LTD that required a run to 80 mph before it would shift into the highest gear and then stay there even as you slowed down. That car still comes up in conversation sometimes.
As I was doing research for this post, I was surprised to see that in 1988 there were only 6,426 of these produced. You almost never see them in California; I suppose they were more popular in the Midwest, but that number still seems low. My research also shows that not one of them had a power trunk release, yet I distinctly recall a little yellow button in the glove box that popped the trunk.
In addition to having an excellent power train, the car boasted a fairly buttoned-down suspension. It would get a little floaty on long, sweeping turns with longer bumps, but it always held tight and got around the bends–very different from a standard-issue large coupe. Also, the brakes worked great, always very reassuring and with good bite.
Reliability was excellent; the only issue it ever had was in an underground parking garage in San Francisco – When I pulled the extremely tight parking brake release, the handle detached from the thin steel string , leaving me no way to release the parking brake. After thinking about it, I decided (very stupidly in hindsight) to just try driving it (with the parking brake fully on) back to my workplace, a few miles across San Francisco, and letting the mechanic across the street look at it. It worked, but certainly couldn’t have done the car any good. The mechanic used Channel-locks to pull the release cable and ordered a new handle to replace the one that was cracked where it met the cable.
My memory is a little fuzzy on exactly how long I had this car, but it must have been no longer than a year-and-a-half. I decided I wanted something different, and so I put it up for sale. Selling it took quite a while–I wasn’t willing to give it away, and nobody really knew what the T-type was all about, so they figured its value was the same as a regular LeSabre. Remember, this was pre-internet, when ads didn’t show a dozen pictures. Rare cars were harder to sell locally.
Finally, a couple of months and many tire-kickers later, a little old lady (literally; she was well into her 70s) called and wanted to see it. It turned out she’d also owned a black one that she’d recently lost in a garage fire at her home in San Francisco. She happily paid my full asking price, and told me her next stop was the window-tinting place to put a deep tint on her “gangster car”, as she called it. It was a great transaction with not at all the type of person I thought would have any interest in the car. During her test drive, we talked cars for quite a while, and continued as we finalized the transaction. It’s funny–a car can take you to the most wonderful places, and often you don’t even have to be driving it to get there…
I have wanted a le sabre t type since junior high when one of the teachers had a white one. Interestingly enough after the last t type post I checked out the local classifieds and there were two of these for sale locally one in white with the dark grey with off white inserts in the seats and the other black with the same interior as the featured car. both of them had right around 100k km and showed some small surface rust in a few aeras. If it werent for the prices of both being high for their age I waoukd have bought the black one and continued on the dreams of uprating the suspension to get rid of that bit of float and adding a decently sticky set of tires and the driving it till the wheels fell off. Although driving till the wheels falk off wouldnt happen today as I have more respect for a obscure car now. I still love the look of these cars and think they have aged quite well.
It is an full size American car for a full size American man.
You don’t see kids driving these. Adults drive them.
Great American cars are available to American adults!
Wow — see there was NOTHING bad about these cars! I always liked them & would have chosen red given the opportunity. I gotta hand it to Buick for offering a full gauge cluster with tach, floor shift, and attractive sport steering wheel.
I’d buy a low mileage one & keep it…if there are any left that is. It would look fine next to my imaginary Ninety-Eight Touring Sedan. Thanks for sharing this!
I have a red 1988 Buick T-type for sale. 512 826 7544
Nice article – and I’m not typically a Buick fan, but that’s a beautiful car. And that’s the first time I’ve seen the logo on the hood mat – very cool……
That pic isn’t my car and to be honest I do not recall 100% if mine had the hoodmat logo. I did find a LOT of pictures with it so I assume they all had it but it could have been just one year maybe If anyone knows for sure please chime in.
The 2nd and 7th (under-hood logo) are of my maroon 87 T-type.The car had about 218,000 miles on it then. It currently has 290,000 miles. Original engine. Take a look at my pictures:
http://tinyurl.com/ozvx4xj
The hood insulation is used in the airplane industry. I sent templates of the original pad and the BUICK logo to the guy I bought the insulation from. He created what you see and also I had asked if he could create the T-type letters. Turned out amazing.
I also have an Silver 87 T with 47,000 miles on it. Original paint.
Here are some pictures of it: http://tinyurl.com/kagaeag
Hi, I hope you don’t mind me using your pics! Nice car, the only pic of mine that I have is the first one.
I don’t mind. It took me by surprise though when I saw the first one. 🙂
I was wondering about that second pic. The quality was too good to be Jim’s car new and the paint was too good to be a curbside classic. And to think that car has 290,000 miles! It’s beautiful Gary. Did you do your own paint?
T-Types were not popular in California and I rarely saw these new. The bodycolor trim really sets off the lines. Hard to believe Gary’s and the LeSabre Limited that Richard posted are the same car.
I remember thinking how artsy the Park Avenue and LeSabre were compared to the Ford aero models. Like Post & Beam architecture versus Ranch, ’61 Lincoln vs. ’61 Cadillac; this one looks more modern than the LeSabre that came next. Such a shame about the interior.
calibrick: Thanks for the compliment. The car had been painted 2 years prior. I did not like the paint job and decided to redo the front fenders, hood, front end and engine bay myself. This was the first time I ever tried painting a car. It took me a while and redid the hood 3 times before I got it right. Doing a near perfect job with bodywork and painting is tough!
I so love these cars! I looked into getting a great paint job on my silver 87 T-type and got a quote of $13,000 yesterday. The car would be stripped down and engine removed as I was looking at a colour change. O.o
These did have a Buick logo and tri-shield on the hood mat, not just the LeSabre T-Type, all of the FWD big Buicks had them until like 1990 or so I think, my grandmothers LeSabre Limited sedan had one.
My mother’s 86 LeSabre Limited sedan had no logo. All of the non T LeSabres that I have seen did not have them but Electras did. Electras were built in Wentzville, MO LeSabres in Flint along with Olds 88. Replacement insulators did not have any logo even though H&C hoods were the same.
I have to say(once again) that I disagree with your statement. I believe both 85-90 Vintage C/H-bodies were built on the Orion assembly line. I didn’t have time to fully research it but looking at some of my files I found the SPID label for an 87 Electra T-Type and it shows VIN code 4 which is Orion Township MI. I also have a pic of the hood insulator which shows the Buick tri-shield. The T-Type hood insulator shown in the pic is a stock one with the T-Type sewn into it. Kind of the same thing the GrandNational guys do to theirs. Buick seems to have been the biggest GM marque to offer silk screening on their hood insulators. I have them on my Turbo’d Riviera T-Types( NA got a blank one) and they were on the 86-88 vintage Riviera too. And also on the 84-87 Turbo’d Regal models.
Here’s the hood insulator from the same 87 Electra.
Wentzville and Orion both built C bodies for the initial FWD introduction.
In April of 1986 we ordered a LeSabre Limited for my mother and I went and picked it up from Flint. As an employee, I was allowed to walk the line with the car. There were LeSabres and 88s on the line. None of them had any silk screening of any kind. Of course the TType was not in production then.
My 1990 Old TS was built in Orion, I picked that up as well ASC had set up a special prep area to convert the TS in a wing on the grounds.
I don’t know what you are arguing with regards to the silk screening. The C body Electras got the logo, the LeSabres did not except for the Ts. Replacement insulators did not since the C&H cars used the same part # for the hood and the insulator. My mother’s LeSabre was involved in an accident in 1998 and we had to replace the hood and the insulator ordered a new one and no logo. I have no idea why the Electras got the logo while most LeSabres did not. As per customary with GM at the time, production was often split between plants based on supplier location and destination.
I had a 1986 Regal TType Turbo no logo. Anyways I am moving on from this too much splitting of hairs. I have found it best to just to analyze a car individually one at a time. A lot of Deltas were built in Willow Run as well in those years. I do apologize I was but one of about 5.5 million people to have worked at GM during my years to remember everything that ever happened would require a brain much larger than my already inflated head. 🙂
If you get a chance, what mods did ASC perform on the Ninety-Eight Touring Sedans? Just curious: I have a thing for those cars. Thanks.
I tried to edit my post but somebodies server wouldn’t let me. First off the SPID label I posted in error is from a 92 Deville Touring Sedan and not a 87 Electra. You are correct in that the Buick,Olds C/H-Body and Pontiac H-Body were built in Wentzville. They were also screwed together in Flint at Buick City and also in Willow Run as you noted. Cadillac C-Body was Orion exclusive. But the Buick H-Body( our stories subject matter) was all Buick City. I could find no evidence of a LeSabre being built in Wentzville. Only the Buick C-Body was built in Wentzville which I found strange. Let me explain how I came to this conclusion. I just checked VINs on the internet. Buick seems to be the only consistent division on how their cars were built and on what line they were built on, other than Cadillac. The Bonneville-H and Eighty-Eight-H were split between Wentzville and Willow Run between 1986(87 for the new Bonneville) to 1993 when they stopped making the C/H-Bodies there. Willow Run stopped making the H-Body after the 89 model year. Willow Run didn’t make any C-Bodies as near as I can tell. Willow Run continued to build the 91 and newer B-Bodies until the 1994 model year when everything shifted to Arlington TX. Buick City continued until it was shuttered after the 99 model year. From what I can tell every 1986 and newer H-Body LeSabre was assembled at Buick City. After 1994 some H-Body assembly was shifted over to the Orion assembly plant which appears to be about the same time Wentzville stopped its C/H-Body production. I don’t know if Wentzville just concentrated on the G-Trucks after that as I didn’t check any VINs for car production.I’d almost bet that GM had everything planned and they had some type of schedule as I seem to recall Wentzville was second to dead last(Arlington TX was last place) on quality control rankings within the GMAD section. If anybody recalls it was around the early 90’s that Orion and Buick City were gaining on quality. There’s more to it than that. That’s one of the sore points with me on the GM DS series that Paul writes. No mention of where these cars are built, why some assembly lines survived and thrived while others were demolished. Only that a car was DS because they all looked like something else that was cheaper. What I was going to also say was that possibly the hood insulator on moms Lesabre had been replaced. I do show the replacement fitting both C/H-body but I could find no pictures of a plain LeSabre to prove that only the production line hood liner had the silk screen. I’ve literally sold hundreds if not millions of dollars of G-Body parts over the last 30 some years and I can tell you that your blank Regal T-Type hood liner is a replacement part as when GM retooled up they couldn’t find the correct tooling for the silk screen. What they did with the Turbo Regal hood liner they probably also did with the Electra/PA,LeSabre and Riviera liners. I will have to check some hood liners the next time I hit the boneyards to see if this holds true. No need to apoligize as I should be the one to be apoligizing to you. You are a wealth of information and as I try to explain on some of my rants that if we are to maintain this site as a source of history and resource than it’s important to be every bit as accurate as possible.
Thanks for your comments on the logo silk screening, my 89 Riviera had some letters, I could see, then I found a wrecked 89 that had (RIVIERA) in silver paint, on the hood insulator in bad condition, I bought it for $5 and transferred letters to my good insulator, worked great
Nice car! I too, was one of those young people who found Buicks appealing. I liked the fact that the car I was driving was no ordinary Chevrolet, Pontiac, or even Oldsmobile. I drove a Buick! – just a step below Cadillac.
When I was a mere 24 years old, with the help of my dad, I drove off the lot of Folger Buick in Charlotte, NC, a new ’85 Buick Limited with leather, center console (no floor shift) and moonroof. That car was the beginning of a love affair with Buicks that continued to a ’91 Park Avenue, ’93 Regal Gran Sport, ’97 Century Custom, ’99 Century Limited, ’05 Lacrosse CXS, and my latest Buick purchased last Thursday, a ’13 Verano.
During this time, 3 Chevrolets (’96 Monte Carlo, ’02 Impala, ’10 Malibu 2 LT) and I Nissan (’02 Altima) have been mixed in but I always come back to Buick. While many may not agree with me, it is my favorite of car lines.
Mr. Bill
Hamlet, NC
Buick fan here also. Currently drive a Lucerne as a daily-driver and am interested in looking at Verano. Would be interested in your review of the car.. 🙂
Dolr: So far, I really like the Verano. Of course, I’ve only had it for four days and it only has mileage on it from the local dealership to home and some local running around for errands. I am amazed at the equipment it has, especially in the base model which I specifically requested. It feels heavy and solid and I understand it is quite laden with sound deadening materials. Mine has the 2.4 Eco Tec engine which is a good engine, adequate for my needs and quite durable. I traded a ’10 Malibu with the same engine and I was pleased with the performance and gas mileage I got.
I’m not a speed demon and I don’t need a big car. I prefer something that rides smooth, soft, and quiet. I feel that is what I have in the Verano. Take a good look at it and I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
Mr. Bill
Hamlet, NC
Colter Buick too bad it’s not the same now just selling Kias at the corner of Buick Drive and Electra Lane. Williams bought the Buick franchise now on S Blvd. I remember old DR. Scott who sold Buicks and Jags now just Jags.
I live right up the street from Folger Kia in Charlotte on Independence Blvd, which used to be a Buick dealer. Things have changed dramatically on that side of town.
Craig: it seemed Folger Buick always had a good selection of fully loaded Buicks that you just didn’t find at other dealerships. I remember my dad and I would have gone over to Scott Buick if necessary, but once I saw that long line of Buick Regal Limiteds (they were along the wall at the very back of the dealership), I knew I would find my car. I choose one in gold with a saddle leather interior, drove it for 3 1/2 years and then let my mom and dad take it as I moved on to a new Toyota Camry. The Camry affair didn’t last long before I was back in another Buick, a ’91 Park Avenue that came from Griffin Motors in Monroe.
I may be wrong, but I always got the impression that Folger Buick was the Buick dealer of choice for the devout Buick clientele living in the Charlotte area. I just didn’t like the holes they drilled in the trunk lids of cars to fit the “Folgers” dealer nameplate.
Agree, that’s a sharp looking car…
I very much agree, Ed. Even back in the day, as a much younger guy, would have loved to have had one of those had I had the money.
Ohhhhhhhh man, I’d forgotten about these, and how much I lusted after them when they were new and I (too) was in my 20s. The coupe bodystyle really moved me anyway, but in T-Type trim it just looked so clean and good and purposeful. If I have any regrets about my 20s it’s that I wish I weren’t so damned cheap, and had bought a few more cars rather than sticking with my Chevy for 8 years.
Haha, as I am writing these I’m thinking about not how much money I spent on each one of my vehicles but how much in sales tax I have given the state for each purchase…
This would go nicely with my imaginary Pontiac 6000 STE AWD, my imaginary Opel Monza GSE, amd that Ciera Convertible I found a while back.
Honestly the only FWD Lesabre I’ve ever lusted over, and the only first generation H-platform that I’ve lusted over. I would have loved a T-type and I too was not aware of them until long after production ceased.
You’d probably like the Electra T-Type as well!
Back when I was a broke high school kid trying to make gas money (early 1990s), I had a job sticking advertising flyers in people’s mailboxes and on their porches. On my route in sleepy little Glandrof OH was an Electra T-type sedan AND an R-body Chrysler New Yorker. Back then I didn’t realize the rareness of either one of those sedans…
Hey I have a CC for the 87 Electra T-Type. I think Paul hates me or maybe we’ve had to much C-Body love on here lately.
My dad bought an ’87 Electra T Type at my urging because the standard model was too spongy and he drove pretty fast. Very different from the ’77 Electra it replaced. I don’t remember any blacked out trim. He traded it for a 2000 LeSabre after 13 years of sun had taken its toll.
For several years in the late ’80’s I went to the annual new car show in St. Louis. Each year I would sit in all kinds of new cars – Porsche, Cadillac, Mercedes, you name it. From those years only a very few have really stuck with me. A LeSabre T-Type is one of them.
That particular one was black with a gray leather interior. That car was something else. It must have made an impression as the only new car I have ever purchased was black with a gray leather interior.
Thanks for the memory.
That is a beautiful car! Nothing to feel stigmatized about at all. Just a clean and beautiful design in a great color. And one of the greatest engines to boot. Great find!
You got to own an ’88 T-type? Well that gives me a serious case of envy.
Nice shots – I used to work with someone back in the ’90’s who had the identical car, and I wouldn’t mind taking one of these home myself. I love the sound of the 3800 (I’ve driven several rentals with it) and it has a great combination of performance with decent fuel economy.
What a car! I’d love to own one of these someday. A great mix of sporty and comfy. And I’d love confusing everybody with the corvette style hood!
As a small child, I loved these as well. I remember seeing one every Sunday at a local church. I think there was maybe one other one in the region. They were just as rare in the Midwest as California I’m afraid.
That was sure a nice car Jim. Those old Buicks did have a great ride and the fuel economy was surprising as you say.
Also nice seeing some Buick appreciation on CC today. I felt GM made a little extra effort on the Buicks back then with the T-Type and Turbo thing and little touches like the clamshell hood.
I remember siting in a bunch of these when my grandmother was servicing her LeSabre at the dealer, Gus Machado Buick had like 6 of them on the lot, 2 silvers, 2 blacks a white and a red, mix n match of leather and cloth. That’s the most I’ve ever seen at one point. The “tach n gauge” cluster was a stand alone option for all the big Buicks, but it’s seldom seen.
I can agree with the service at a Cadillac dealers, even when buying a used car, I bought my old 2000 Grand Prix from an old traditional Cadillac dealer in Ft. Lauderdale, and in spite of it being the cheapest car on their used car lot, they treated me like I was buying a new STS, is still get a birthday card from them.
Yep, exactly the same here. I think it was my first experience with a “career” sales person that was not just looking to move something that day but looking ahead to potential future sales and referral business. Smart.
I like these cars a lot. I always found the H body coupes to be very attractive since they seems to be an update of the 77-79 design. However full size coupes were rapidly declining in popularity so they are hard to find.
In addition to the specific wheels, taillights, spoiler, and seats, a unique air dam was used that was different than the regular LeSabres and Electras. The aftermarket supplier that made them had trouble with the molds so the first cars were sold with the original LeSabre air dam. Later, customers could have them retrofitted by the dealer. The were expensive when they were discontinued in 2002 like $600. NOS ones are around $900 now.
http://www.lesabret-type.com is a wonderful website.
Nice write-up and a cool car! I was looking at these as well as the Park Avenues on the used car lots when I acquired my 95 Thunderbird. From working at the local auto repair shop, I was familiar with them and knew that this era of the Buick 3.8 was a good one. The Park Avenue seemed to be more common in my neck of the woods. I just didn’t find one with low miles that was in my budget at the time.
These were really lovely cars and indicative of what GM did so well. I loved this generation of H body and it’s a pity I didn’t have the ability to get one. When they were in their pre-owned prime I was out of the country for more than a decade and when I got back, they were really too old to get a nice one, as I like to by very low km used cars whenever possible, as it is, in my experiences, worth it.
I have driven many of the T Type H Bodies and the 3800 is a great old workhorse. It’s all about torque, ladies and germs, and that is what gives this setup its feel, not horsepower. I had one as a rental circa 1989 and it was a really beautiful car to drive. However, at high speed the relatively low horsepower dampened the response a bit. Still that thing ate up miles and was very comfortable. The last really good cars designed by engineers, not marketers.
If it’s all about torque, please (anyone) explain something to me… because I’ve never understood the whole “torque this, torque that” philosophy in a world where transmissions exist.
This is an honest question, I’m not trying to be a dick – I’m only piping up about it here because I’ve driven a few 3800 powered H-bodies from this era and an interesting comparison popped into my head.
I used to have a G-body with the carbed Buick V6. It was a total slug, despite being a complete stripper with power nothing. It was lethargic at any road or engine speed. It was also a low mileage example (40k) that I knew the entire service history on. I’ve driven at least one other carb/V6 G-body and its performance was identical or worse.
The 1st gen H-body I had the most experience with was an ’86 LeSabre coupe with lots of miles but still in good shape. It was very sprightly if not exactly a hot rod, and the engine was responsive and pulled strong from a dead stop or when stomping the pedal at 60mph. In a drag race, it would have slaughtered my car – or any Buick V6 (non-turbo) G-Body.
Though these two may not seem that similar, they do have some things in common:
’86 Buick LeSabre – Peak Torque: 200ft-lbs. @ 2000rpm / 3,190lb. curb weight
’87 Buick Regal – Peak Torque: 190ft-lbs. @ 1600rpm / 3,197lb. curb weight
Very close, with a slight edge to the LeSabre. There’s still a lot of stuff between the engines developing that power and the pavement, though… and because this is a topic I think about often, I know that (gear ratio * tqconv multiplier * final drive ratio)*flywheel torque = axle torque. Plugging in the numbers tells me that from a dead stop in 1st gear, each car will actually be delivering this much torque to the wheels:
’86 Buick LeSabre – (2.921 * 1.7 * 2.73)*200ft-lbs. = 2,711.2ft-lbs.
’87 Buick Regal – (2.74 * 2.2 * 2.41)*190ft-lbs. = 2,760.2ft-lbs.
To really be accurate, I would have to figure out drivetrain losses which I have no reasonable way of doing… but I’d assume they’re in favor of the FWD LeSabre. The Regal is on tires that have a .5 inch smaller diameter, which means it has a higher (numerical) effective final drive ratio. So when it comes to any unaccounted differences between the engine and wheels, we can just say it’s a wash (or too close to be significant).
Anyway… we’ve got two cars that are applying roughly the same exact amount of torque to the ground here. They have very similar torque peaks and torque curves – low and flat. If it really is all about torque (ladies and germs; sorry), why is one responsive and quick when the pedal is mashed from a stoplight and the other will allow you to read War & Peace cover to cover before it shifts into second gear? Aerodynamics don’t (seriously) come into play at such low speeds, and I’m only slightly exaggerating the difference.
Like I said, I have read a lot about this (well, I mean… on the internet), but since it’s usually written by people who are way smarter than me, I’m not entirely sure I understand it.
The only difference I can see in the numbers is that one develops a horsepower peak of 110@3800rpm and the faster, smoother, more responsive one 150@4400rpm. If torque alone is what gave the H-body LeSabre it’s feel, then why doesn’t the G-body Regal have a similar feel?
Oh, and also – I agree, these were great cars.
It’s not just about torque alone….in fact ultimately, it’s pretty much all about horsepower.
Now I don’t have time right now to pull out formulas and such, but the torque and power curves on these two engines tell the story: the Regal’s engine torque peak (1600 rpm) is way too low for it to be a powerful engine (unless it was a 500 inch Caddy V8) At 1700 rpm, its torque is already dropping. So what’s the stall speed on that transmission? Must be well more than 1600 rpm!
Its low torque peak and equally feeble power peak at a very low 3900 tells us that this is a dog of an engine; no way around it. When you floor it, the torque converter undoubtedly lets the engine spool up right past the torque peak, and the horsepower build up is very nominal.
The LeSabre engine has a much more encouraging torque peak speed, which tells us it’s got more power likely to come as it revs up. And the torque peak is undoubtedly closer to the revs when the engine pulls against the TC at full throttle. And it generates much more horsepower.
Do NOT be fooled about people telling you it’s all about torque. Optimum acceleration happens at or just below the power peak, not at the torque peak. Why do think one shifts at the redline and wants to have lots of gears so the engine speed doesn’t drop too far when shifting. It’s all about HORSEPOWER.
Of course, one HAS to have torque to make horsepower, but if one had a perfect CVT transmission, it wouldn’t really matter where the torque curve was. It just makes driving around town more pleasant, to have a fat torque curve at a not-too high engine speed.
I’ve told this many times: A little Honda S2000 (or other) 2.0 L engine making 240 hp at 8000 rpm installed in a semi truck will accelerate it and keep it going just as well as a giant Cummins diesel six making 240 hp, AS LONG as the Honda engine has the right gearing (very many gears, in this case, or a CVT ideally). (of course, how long it will last is a different issue, but that’s not the point here).
ONLY hp will tell you how much maximum power there is to accelerate or pull a vehicle up a hill. Torque will just tell you what kind of gearing you need to best put it use.
The Regal engine’s stats tell you everything you need to know: it’s a weak-chested engine, and nothing will hide that or compensate for that. Yes, it makes almost the same torque at 1600 rpm as the other does at 2000, but 1600 rpm is not a very useful speed in a small engine like this.
Hope that helps…supper time.
Nice cars. There used to be alot of these around my area. Used to see at least one a day. I think the only LeSabre I would want more is the LeSabre Grand National. There is still one cruising the local streets that I see occasionally. I would like to meet the older couple who drives it and ask them if they know what they have.
An honest to God Lesabre GN?!
As a CC commenter you have a duty to get pictures and post them to the Cohort.
Yes, my research indicates that eiher 112 or 117 of these were built, all in late 1985 for the ’86 model year. I’ll credit the source here: http://www.lesabret-type.com/LeSabreGN.html go there for a ton more info. With the T-type coming out a year later there was likely some influence.
Huh, I’ll be darned. I used to admire one that ran around Jasper, AL for a few years — this was while I worked at my father’s scrapyard. I remember it being in good condition too — hopefully it survives. It was awesome — I’d rather have one of those than a Turbo GN.
I have to admit that these cars did not appeal to me at all back when they were new. Afterall I owned a real 86 GrandNational and what could change my mind? Sometime just before 1990 I bought my first 84 Riviera T-Type. Now there was a fast FWD Buick! Still nothing could change my mind. Like a lot of people I waited patiently for a turbocharged and later a supercharged version of this car. I gave up all hope after GM canned the H-Body coupes after the 90 model year. I thought about buying one everytime I saw one sitting on a used car lot but after awhile really nice examples disappeared of the face of the planet. I still see a few of them showing up in the boneyards and one day I even found 2 of them sitting on the back lot of a local repair shop so somebody must think they are COAL worthy.
While I tend to be a Mopar guy most of the time, I’ve had a life-long fascination and lust for the very rare, limited edition models of many different automakers. The LeSabre GranNational is one car I don’t think I’ve ever seen in the flesh. Have only seen one photo of one on the ‘net in the last 5 or ten years. Any of those remaining cars need to be found and given a proper as-close-to-original restoration as possible. Seriously.
They are around. They were originally only sold through the Atlanta and Jacksonville zones (which handled Daytona). Sources seem to conflict between 112-119 on number of built all in December of 1985.
Aside from wearing the GN moniker, the most interesting thing about those was the rear quarter windows were actually resized. That was done for NASCAR qualifying purposes but it is a unique hard alteration.
About the best write up available: http://www.lesabret-type.com/LeSabreGN.html
Nice piece on a great car. I will join the chorus of those who always had a soft spot for these cars. While that generation of H body never called my name all that loudly, the T-Type was the exception. I still occasionally see a black one in my area. It is still a sharp car.
Love this article and this car! The title “A Young Man Buys an Old Man’s Car” made me laugh — it sort of applied to me, when I bought a 1997 Riviera at age 32. Like yours, it was a used car at a Cadillac dealer, and the very nice salesperson gave me a quizzical look when I inquired about it. She thought I might be better suited to a Regal. But when it became clear that only that car would do, the transaction went very smoothly. The car was a few years old at the time, and wasn’t easy to find in the color and option level I wanted. This one was perfect. It became mine and I kept it for 9 years. No regrets! I’ll probably own another someday. But I might enjoy a LeSabre (or even better, Electra!) T-Type first.
Haha, I was around 24 when I bought mine.
I was 35 when I bought my lovely 1995 LeSabre Limited, a true one-owner little old lady car if ever there was one. I loved it. Somewhere in the CC archives is the story I did on it.
Anyways, last week I found sitting at my local Ford dealer a very rare 1988 LeSabre Limited coupe with a full length vinyl top, that if you didn’t know, you would think was aftermarket. I was going to do a story, but this story today kind of takes care of it.
You know, I still find that LeSabre very attractive today. Hope somebody bought that and keeps it garaged, only to drive in good weather, and mostly to old car shows. Sadly, I never had the income for any new car back in the day. Then once I bought a house, paying it off has been more of a priority than driving a new or late-model car.
I had the emergency brake cable come off in my hand on my ’85 LeSabre. I happened to have vise-grips on hand to release it. All of $65.00 to fix at (then) Schuman Carriage (Buick-Cadillac-Subaru in Honolulu). Incidentally, City and County of Honolulu would allow some cops to purchase a (select) type of car for police use; in the mid-late 90’s there were quite a few of these LeSabre T-Types doing duty pounding the streets of the “aina” . . . These look sinister in black and the 3.8 Buick V-6’s of the day had plenty of low end torque and the THM’/transaxle’s gearing would allow for decent top end . . .
Cool. As a local to the Bay Area, and specifically the Peninsula – I can tell you that all the major auto dealers of Menlo Park are gone. Stanford Cadillac, or previously Penske, and before that Shepard, has long gone to the showroom in the sky. They’re just vacant lots now
The only auto showroom in MP is Tesla Motors (which is in an old Lincoln Mercury or Ford showroom) and my understanding is they don’t conform to the traditional dealership business model.
We lived on the Peninsula for a long time, I mentioned where the Buick came from, the GTI from last week was from the Subaru dealer that was in San Carlos next to the defunct LIncoln Mercury dealer there (now razed). Check back every Sunday there will be more local purchases!
The old Tesla HQ is in one if the little streets by the Best Buy in San Carlos and my old employer still prints the owner’s manuals for Tesla through a design firm in S F.
Nothing wrong with owning a LeSabre. I bought a 2005 LeSabre from the local Chevy/Buick/GMC dealer in 2011 at the age of 34 and loved it until I decided I needed a vehicle that could haul crap in it so I got a XB and sold the LeSabre. That was a comfy car and drove well with got gas mileage
Here is a pic of it before they removed the stickers and I could leave the dealership
Jim, what can I say… you’ve got excellent taste. Every one of the COAL articles you’ve done so far has been on something I’ve either wanted to own or seriously admired. I also appreciate your level of brand/vehicle slutty-ness and total lack of narrow loyalty, as I am also afflicted with these conditions.
IMO, the ’88-’91 LeSabre T-Type was the best all-around car GM built during this era. I’m a big fan of the C/H cars in general, though I’d say their most notable flaw in this generation was slightly “off” proportions. This was the best looking bodystyle (H-body Buick/Olds coupe) for them, by far, and I think the T-Type specific stuff improved the looks even further. Getting all the good suspension and interior parts definitely improves the experience significantly, too. All of these cars are great highway cruisers or daily drivers, but the high-spec ones are actually fun to drive.
By my count there are still something like 28(?) cars to go in this series, I’ll be looking forward to them!
Well, thank you for the kind words! I get a kick out of seeing the different comments and trying to figure out the different demographics at play, very different subsets of regular commenters on this one and the Chevy vs the ones on the Audi and Mazda for example. You’re selling me short though, there are about 31 cars and 3 motorcycles left! I wish I had more time to comment on everyone else’s stuff but am too busy at work right now to do much more than try to keep up with the reading of almost everything on this site and put together next week’s COAL…
Old mans car? No way! A cleanly styled, blacked out, performance-flavored 2-door will NEVER say ‘old man’. In these days, Buick was still trying to have a pulse. Granted, the majority of Buicks WERE old fart cars, and they did have a good part of that demographic, but they had a kind of split personality. These T-types, as well as the GNX, and hell Ill even allow that a few of the Buick J-cars gave a little dose of performance flavor with their 2-door bodies, scaled down Kelsey-Hayes style wheels and blacked out trim. I say performance ‘flavor’ since in reality it was all styling on many of these, but it still looked aggressive and clearly targeted males who would have had an eye on the Grand Sports from the muscle car era. My dad’s first new car was a ’67 G/S with a big block, 4spd and not much else. He still raves about that car, and how it was the equal or superior to the Chevelles and GTOs of the time yet a lot more exclusive.
Back on topic, it was this photo that made me stand up and take notice of the LeSabre coupes:http://worldcarslist.com/photo/buick-lesabre-t-type/03/default.html
The silver with black trim, and especially the fitment of those Mustang ‘Bullitt’ mags to this car….irrefutable PROOF that the right styling touches on a clean 2-coupe are timeless. If only Buick still had a few cars like this instead of the ugly, flabby 4-door geriatric oriented garbage they’ve been peddling for 20 or so years….
re: Back on topic, it was this photo that made me stand up and take notice of the LeSabre coupes:http://worldcarslist.com/photo/buick-lesabre-t-type/03/default.html
Wow… That silver LeSabre is one fine looking car.
Although a completely different animal… right on par with a GNX in the ‘desire’ category. And being an ‘old-school’ rear drive GM type guy, it says a lot, but I think I’d be happy with either one. Verrrry nice
As far as what you mentioned about your Dad’s G/S, I had owned 3 GTO’s from ’68/’69 years, so I obviously had a thing for them… but always thought Buick had the right mix of power & muscle, yet with a more ‘refined’ finish than my cars did. For some reason personally, I thought the 1970 GTO got a bit closer to Buick on that particular level given the style change), than the ones I owned of previous era.
At any rate… I love ’em all. And… I am not afraid to say, at least as far as cars are concerned, if I had Rod Taylor’s time machine… I don’t question that I would go back to those days and probably stay (at least for a long while) and if the machine could go up to 1985, then probably for good 🙂
My 63 Electra convertible was my first Buick at 18 years old, actually bought it on my birthday. Found out a 425 with HD variable pitch Twin Turbine trans is one quick Buick and at 450,000+ miles still in love with it. Since then have had 160 other Buicks of wildly assorted years. I’ve had slightly less Cadillacs and prefer the Buicks. pic of the Electra the color it was when I got it.
i also have a ruby red 1988 Ttype in my garage, we have over 200,000 miles on it and waiting to redo motor and trany due to children using the car. we bought it new and have loved it dearly.
I know the feeling of “a young man buys an old man’s car.” When I was 24, finally having secured a decent job with benefits, I decided it was time to move on from the ’82 Chevy Malibu I had been driving (V6 sedan with no A/C) and get something nicer. After test-driving the “usual suspects”–used A4, used BMW 3-series, etc.–I saw an ad for a low-mileage 1996 Lincoln Mark VIII. 47K miles, white opalescent with graphite leather. I’d loved those cars since they debuted back in the early 90’s so going to see it was a no-brainer, and when I got to the dealership it was a showroom-shiny, immaculate, one-owner car priced at a rather reasonable $8700. Sold.
I did get the “old man car” comments from some of my friends, but others saw it for what it was–a V8 coupe with all the options and almost 300 horsepower. 27 MPG all day long on the highway, too, due to the slippery shape. Still one of the best cars I’ve ever owned, and had it not been lost in an accident only two years after I bought it, I’d probably still be driving it today.
Replaced by “old man car” #2–a 2003 Mercury Marauder–that one was fun in a whole different way.
It’s one thing when one of my younger peers says “cool car” but it’s 100x cooler to me when an older person compliments whatever car I’m driving.
Back when my 20-22 year-old peers were driving the 5.0 Mustangs, my beloved ride was a low-mileage golden olive/white/white ’73 Bonneville 2-door hardtop. I was filling up the tank next to an older well-dressed man filling up his newer Lincoln (or maybe Cadillac?). Anyway, he walked around the rear of my car, eyeing it & when I turned around & smiled, he returned the smile and said, “That’s a pretty Pontiac you have there.”
Many would think, “so what?” but it totally made my year & was one of the nicest things to hear from someone….the type of person I aspired to be like one day. I’ll never forget that!
What a very cool story to hear. Thanks so much for sharing that. I actually did something like that at a gas station just a few years ago. A guy quite a bit younger than me pulled up in a 2-door full-size 1967 Dodge Polara. Although it was in less than pristine, original condition, I had a brief conversation with the young guy, hoping to inspire him to fix it up and keep it original, rather than do some so-so mods to it. Because in the rust-belt area of this country, a running example of what he has is super-rare.
I bought a1989 one new and 25 years later still have it. It now has 55,000 miles and has never been driven in the winter and still looks and runs like new.
I owned a red 88 T-Type a little beat up, until i found a silver 89 T-Type with 80k in near perfect condition. It was a great comfortable car with big wide seats, lots of room, good pickup with the 3800 & lower final drive, handled great on smooth roads. Engines were bulletproof, sold 88 w150k still running execellent & the 89 w175k after sitting over a year with blown tranny started right up & ran excellent. I always liked them since when my parents bought a 87 Olds 88 coupe in maroon with the FE3 suspension. That was a nice car but not the T-Type I wanted them to buy. My Dad was going back & forth between the dealers until the Buick guy had enough, told him wouldn’t go any lower & go buy the Olds. I still miss my T-Type.
GM was creating some of the worst looking, poorest quality interiors in the industry during the ’80s and into the 2000’s. The Japanese and European automakers we’re awing the public with their wares whereas GM, Ford and Chrysler were to busy pulling the flush handle on their inferior designs.
Chrysler had these lush leather interiors from 70’sthrough late 80’s, done well.
I’m looking for some information about the lesabret web site. Do you happen to know anyone the was the web master? I have not been able to load the site, there was a lot of porn being posted on it and that may be why it was shut down. That is unfortunate because there was a lot of information on the site. Thanks for any info. you can provide. John
I bought a new 88 T Type and put 200k on it in 8 years. Never touched the drive train, only repaired a few items like the power windows. One of the best cars I ever owned, would easily spin the front tires and was fast. Made 28 mpg when new and still at 200k I bought an 02 Pontiac Bonneville because of that car and still own it. I bought a silver one because of the picture in the LeSabre brochure.
Around about then Opel gave up selling big coupes. This would have made the basis for a fine Monza. And if there’s a problem with the T it’s that it’s too much like an Opel. And how did this sporty version of a luxury car relate to Pontiac’s equivalent (the 6000?) or Chevrolet’s version.
Funny you mention the 6000, as after reading this and seeing the dash, it reminded me of my Grandmother’s loaded ’82 LE Coupe in Light Redwood Metallic (weird copper/peach). By the time of this car, Pontiac had disposed of the two door, but the execution seems very similar. Grandma’s had the 2.8, and every option I could think of that would have been available except for a cassette player. For 1982, it really was a sporty and fairly swift car. Yes, she was also a leadfoot.
That parking brake release failure was very common on ’70s-’80s GM cars. A variety of repair kits and replacement handles could be had from the likes of NAPA.
Missed this the first time around. The H bodies are really a bright spot to me when it comes to 80s GM. We had an 89 LeSabre sedan in that same red metallic (i want to say it was called Ruby Red Metallic but it’s been a while) and other than a couple early bugs caught by the mechanic early on, it became a very solid, reliable car that was extremely competent in a lot of ways- interior space, ride, handling, fuel economy. And I think the coupes, and especially the T-types, were even nicer looking. I’d rock this particular example when I got to driving age in the early-mid 90s, and I’d drive one now.
Edit: rereading I noticed you did call out the paint name. It was a very stunning color for the time. Probably would be even more so today with all the grays and silvers.
Deja vu, this summer my son got his first car, a 2003 Buick LeSabre Custom, previously owned by an old man. This leads to an interesting problem, the near unavailability of fit kit for Yakima or Thule roof racks since the original buyers didn’t haul mountain bikes.
Always liked these in their T-Type trim. Fine looking car that way.
Missed this post too the first time around. Not normally a Buick fan but this one really clicks for me; I would have enjoyed owning and driving one like this.
Great car, one of the nicest to come out of the Eighties IMHO.
Amazes me how many folks here let their brothers drive their car in their younger days. My brother never drove my 68 Cougar and I never drove his 71 Pinto. When I got a company car and he got a company car around 1974 neither of us drove the other’s. Now 47 years later he has driven one of mine once after being bought and I have never driven one of his.
Nice to re-read this, and I still think these were fantastic-looking cars. Way back in the early 00’s, a fellow employee at NC State University had one of these in black, super-clean and well-kept for a ~15 year old car, and I always admired it as I walked by after work (I never did find out whose it was). His wore a pair of the “turbo 6” badges from the Grand National–I know the turbo didn’t make it into the LeSabre, but was it available with the supercharged 3800 as an option? Or was his just a bit of “badge engineering”?
Turbo was not an option for these cars. They tried but the tranny couldn’t handle it. I have a white 89 LeSabre T that I’ve owned since 1994. My all time favorite car.
A lot of pep? Not with 165 horses