After six years and 120,000 miles, we had never quite gotten used to the Infiniti’s size and ponderous nature around town. It was a great highway cruiser and tow vehicle, but around town, my wife kept running over curbs, bushes, and parking stops about daily. It was a family joke and the kids starting keeping “score” as well. The big tires on 18 inch wheels took this abuse well, without any curb rash or damage.
But, we still needed to tow. And with three kids, we frequently made use of the third row. Taking their cousins or friends anywhere meant there were often 6 or 7 people aboard. We needed 4WD as we had some snow where we lived, and drove to nearby ski resorts for the kids.
My wife wanted “smaller” and “more car-like” though, which had me scratching my head. We drove a Mercedes GL, but it was still bigger than she wanted, and way too expensive to boot. One day, we were flying past a CarMax and I saw a used Land Rover LR3 near the street. It was a Sunday and they were closed, but that struck me as a possible candidate. We pulled over, parked, and walked into the lot to take a look. The kids were with us too.
Our 13 year old daughter and my wife did not like the “industrial” looking dash and controls, while us three guys thought it looked cool. But, my wife liked the relatively compact size of it. Tall, of course, but pretty short and narrow relatively speaking.
Then, as now, the Land Rover dealers are pretty few and far between. We live about equidistant between two of them, one is 90 minutes east and another 90 minutes west. A couple of weeks later, we were in one of those cities anyway for a Lego convention, as I recall! We went by the Land Rover dealer there and looked at a new LR4.
My research in the meantime had revealed that the LR4 had a much improved dash and door panels, to match it closer to the Range Rover brethren. The LR4 was also now powered (in North America, Russia and Australia) by the stout 5.0 liter Jaguar V8, the same engine used in Jags as well as the larger Range Rover.
The LR3 had used a Ford 4. 0 liter V6, though the earlier 4.4 liter version of the Jaguar AJ-V8 was a rarely seen option. And “rarely seen” was for the best, as the 4.4 version had the same Nikasil cylinder liner problem as BMW engines of the era. That’s a long story for another day, and a great Google topic if you’re interested. The 5.0 liter switched to cast iron liners, along with direct fuel injection and some other upgrades.
While my wife liked the looks, liked the size, and how it drove, she of course touched on the giant elephant in the room: “Aren’t Land Rovers terribly unreliable? Like, they don’t run? At all?”
The 1989 – 1998 Discovery
Well, I have to admit she had a point there. It’s fair to say they suffer from a poor reputation, whether it is backed up by facts or not. In the best GM style, Land Rover called the old Discovery the “Discovery II” after a few years, like calling a Citation a “Citation II” made anyone forget how bad the Citation was.
The 1998- 2002 Discovery II
The Discovery II was somewhat better, but is still a poster child for British design and assembly indifference. These have been described as held together by “cat spit and cobwebs”, but I still want one very badly. The Discovery II is a very handsome vehicle to me. It won’t be mistaken for anything else, for sure. And to say their owners are a rabid and enthusiastic lot is an understatement. The Discovery and Discovery II still have huge aftermarket support, with everything you can think of to maintain them, or make them into true rock crawlers.
The 2003 – 2009 Discovery 3, or LR3 in North America
The LR3 was another GM-esque name switcheroo. It was called the Discovery 3 for the entire planet, except for North America. The Discovery name was banished until it’s very recent resurrection for the LR4 replacement. I guess they figured it’s been long enough, that we have by now forgotten any North American Discovery-related bad karma.
As is typical of British vehicles, there have been a lot of changes in Jaguar/Range Rover/Land Rover corporate ownership over the years, some good and some not. I won’t recount the entire history here, and some of you know it better than I anyway. But the short version is that from 2000 to 2008, it was fully owned by Ford, and then sold on to the large Indian conglomerate Tata (think the GE or Hyundai of India). One positive outcome of Ford’s era was that the LR3 / LR4 was largely designed under Ford’s guidance. And, the 5.0 Jaguar V8 came to be built at a Ford engine plant in the UK (and still is, apparently).
From my reading, I reasoned that Land Rover reliability was surely much improved. Ford can design a vehicle and assemble an engine as well as anyone. The transmission was the same 6 speed ZF automatic that propels many different makes and models, including most BMW’s of the last 20 years. I also noted on the test drive that virtually all the electrical connections and wires under the hood said “Ford” or “FoMoCo”, which was reassuring. The LR4 itself was still built at Rover’s original Solihull, UK plant.
Not an LR4, but the same upright seating and glass, glass, glass
So, we had some objective research indicating an LR4 was not a completely illogical gamble. And the test drive went well. It seemed to be a good fit for us. Compact, relatively speaking. Three rows (optional at extra cost). Easy to see out of and park, sitting up high and being surrounded by so much glass. Four wheel drive. The tow capacity was well under the QX56 but still over 7000 pounds. It could tow the trailer that we were probably shedding soon anyway, and would tow the boat for sure.
The salesman wasn’t in a dinner jacket, but this was his expression….
The negotiations ended before they started with the salesman sniffing, “We don’t discount these. At all.” Well, maybe they didn’t, but surely someone would. Thus the internet re-enters the picture. Searching far and wide, I found a dealer about 6 hours away that had a new, never titled 2011 LR4 that had 3,000 miles. It supposedly had been driven by the sales manager for 3 months, and the warranty had not started because it had not been titled. There was a generous five figure discount involved, which made it well under the MSRP and less than the QX56 had been six years earlier.
The salesman I connected with on the phone asked me to email pictures of my trade, and he would send me a value for the trade. He sent me back a figure that beat what the Mercedes dealer had offered, and was a little more than what I was hoping to get.
So, I set out for the drive by myself in the QX56 at the crack of dawn. Upon arrival, I inspected the LR4 that they had thoughtfully detailed and pulled into the showroom. It was truly spotless. I found one, one inch long scratch on the rear bumper, but that was it. They test-drove the QX56 all the figures were put onto paper exactly as they were discussed on the phone. It was a smooth, easy transaction. I set out for home and arrived that night.
Our kids were, well, a little upset. Our 13 year old daughter didn’t hate it, but she was more attached to the QX56 than she (and we) had expected. She had spent half her life riding around in it, after all. But the third row in the LR4 won her over. It has two bucket-like seats that fold flat into the floor. There’s lots of cubbies and storage spaces back there, and a very forceful rear heat and AC unit. And, a fixed glass sunroof over the third row and second row as well. So that was her new “lair” away from her brothers and all was well.
We were very pleased with the LR4. Well, still pleased I should say, as it is still here. We towed the trailer to the beach and to Disneyworld one more time. The LR4 had more power and accelerated better than the QX56. But, we were at the tow weight limit and you could tell. It was substantially less stable and enjoyable to tow the trailer, and we kept the speed down more so than in the past. But, as we predicted, the kids had outgrown the bunks and to some extent outgrown camping with their parents, too. We sold the trailer and that was that.
It does well pulling the boat to the lake eight or ten times a summer, and I have a big old junky looking trailer I use behind it to clean out and remodel rental houses. It’s been as far south as Miami, and as far north as Boston. And now, our youngest is 15 with his learner’s permit, and cutting his teeth on it. Our oldest is probably going to take it back to college this Fall.
The vehicle itself is very heavy, heavier than the much larger QX56. We have replaced the front and rear pads like clockwork every 30,000 miles. Tires are at the wear bars every 25,000 miles or so.
But yes, it still runs! We have had two meaningful problems, but I mostly attribute them to a poor dealership service department at one of the dealers closer to our house (not the selling dealer). The radio/nav touchscreen would go black for no reason early on. The dealer “reset” it the first time, “reset” it the second time, and “couldn’t duplicate” the third time. The fourth time, I reminded them that four unsuccessful repair attempts triggered the lemon law buyback requirement in our state. So, they replaced the entire touchscreen assembly. The problem never occurred again. I think they should have replaced it the first time, or certainly the second time.
A nice loaner soothes frayed nerves.
Next, the LR4 was recalled to replace a fuel level sender unit that might give “erratic” readings. We had never had a problem with the gauge at all, but dutifully returned for the recall. Well, you guessed it, they botched the recall work (damaged the wiring, they said) and my wife ran out of gas with a car full of kids and groceries. With the gauge showing she had half a tank. I would love to have been present for the phone call she placed to them, because the dealer sent a rollback with a new Range Rover Supercharged as a loaner! And a couple of days later, the rollback returned with our LR4. The problem never recurred.
About a year ago, the dash would say “Bonnet Open” when you were driving, and then the alarm went off in the driveway twice. Google told me that the hood alarm switch was a common problem and the cause of these symptoms. $30 on eBay brought a replacement switch to my door, and it was an easy 5 minute job with no tools needed.
Now at 98,000 miles, the engine and drivetrain have been 100% trouble free. I did cut the 15,000 mile oil change intervals in half because I didn’t like it. I know some would say “right on” and some would say I was throwing money away, but for mostly in-town and towing use, I think 7,500 miles is enough. The internet says you cannot change the oil and have to visit the dealer to have it suctioned out, but there’s a drain plug on the pan like anything else. You just have to unbolt a skid plate to get to it. You can’t use a typical oil suction machine (like I have for the boat) because there is no dipstick tube to stick it down.
I also change the differentials and transfer case myself every 40,000 miles, as I read it is an “open diff” system with a vent that allows moisture in. I don’t know what that is, or if that’s true or not, but the little quantity of fluid needed is cheap insurance. And with the air suspension raised, there’s plenty of room to work under there without ramps anyway.
I inquired about a transmission fluid change around 50,000 miles, as it is a “lifetime” fill and I don’t buy into that either. I was told by the dealer who broke the fuel gauge to “wait until it leaks, then we’ll do it. They all leak”. Well, I’m still waiting. It’s bone dry on the outside. The one piece plastic filter/pan and fluid are reasonably cheap, as they are used by so many makes and models. But a frame crossmember and part of the exhaust need to be moved or removed to get the pan off, so it’s not something I want to do on my own. I think I may do a “drain and refill” on my own here soon, when I do the spark plugs.
With two kids driving now, and the third headed to his own license as well, we didn’t have the need for three rows any longer. In fact, my wife was frequently driving by herself, or it was just she and I (and maybe another couple) heading out.
She liked the SUV seating position and cargo space, and we had a place in the mountains by this time, so we still needed 4WD. We also had elderly relatives were were carrying around, and the LR4 was high enough to be challenging to get them into. My son had a used SUV we could tow the boat with, so towing would be nice but not an essential factor. So, two rows, 4WD, lower and more car-like than before. We drove some of the usual suspects, but we would wind up with our most unexpected selection so far.
What’s been your most unexpectedly reliable car, new or used?
A humor site. Lucas Replacement Wiring Harness Smoke
http://mez.co.uk/lucas.html
BMW and Hyundai call for servicing this transmission at 100k. BMW and Chrysler call for service to the subsequent ZF 8HP at 100k. I think it’s a pretty safe bet that ZF recommends that interval. Ford and their collection of brands from the late 1990s were pretty much first and foremost in the “lifetime transmission fluid” fallacy. The lifetime of the trans, of course, being the lifetime of the fluid. If an LR dealer won’t drain and fill and replace the filter, go the a BMW or Hyundai dealer. As you said, the trans and its components are very common, and even if a different brand dealer doesn’t stock the filter (if it’s even vehicle specific) they can order and aftermarket one.
Of course, if the cooling lines are prone to leakage, they may start as soon as anyone disturbs the system.
I have noticed that most of these LR3/4s have T rated tires when they require a V rated tire and that, after the short-lived factory tires are done for, tire wear is extreme due to underrated tires. The best I have seen hold up were actually V rated Nexens (lower-end S Korean brand that factory supplies Kia and Mitsubishi) which can ride stiff and wear loud, but see upwards of 50k on these on a 65k mileage rating. May want to try them out. Pirelli and Continental did the factory fit for most years of LR production and both options (Scorpion Verde and CrossContact LX Sport) are known for crappy lifespans. The LX Sports barely last 20k on new Hyundai Santa Fes. Hell, an ’11 could have even had Conti 4x4Contacts which were even worse.
Just my thoughts on maintenance.
Thank you for the transmission thoughts. Yes, I think I will do a drain and refill, which appears easy enough, soon, and I have the spark plugs on hand as well. I did have the Conti 4×4 Contacts when new. They lasted to 28,000 which I was disappointed in, but nothing else has lasted any longer. I have Nokian Z-SUV’s on there now which is a summer tire, but they look like they will last as long as anything else. And they make it handle superbly, I couldn’t believe the difference. In light snow they’re fine if you take it easy.
28k is actually very good for 4x4Contacts. Nokian is such an oddball company. The world’s best winter tires, some decent summer tires (be careful though – some zLine sizes are made in China by Beijing Capital who also make some of the cheapest, junkiest tires on the American market), and major issues with longevity on their enTyre all season lineup. Glad you are liking the zLines. No market for them here in PA so never sold one.
Yokohama Geolandar G055 may come in the V rating, and is a very, very nice tire. Not sure of longevity on an LR. Have sold and seen them last well on Cayennes which are similarly heavy and hard on tires.
I’ve never had Nokians, but they’ve been great. Mine are made in Russia according to the sidewall, which was unexpected. I have a set of Falkens (stamped Japan) to go on soon.
A problem item on this car is the one-piece plastic transmission pan/filter. On a Jag or BMW, the same identical part gets removed, trashed, and replaced with the fluid change. OK, easy enough. But on the LR3/LR4, the exhaust and a frame crossmember are in the way. You can’t drop the pan more than an inch or so, so you cannot get the filter “neck” out of the body of the transmission. You have to remove the exhaust, remove the frame member, and loosening the engine mounts helps this process too I read.
The DIY workaround I have discovered, and which I will attempt soon, is to drop the pan the inch or so that you can, then cut it up with a hack saw or angle grinder, since it’s just plastic, so you can pull all the pieces out and get the filter neck out of the transmission body. Then, go back with a separate filter and metal pan like a normal car. The Ford Raptor uses the same ZF 6 speed and the Ford filter and pan are cheap and fit fine. You have enough clearance to get them in if you hold your tongue just right.
My most unexpectedly reliable vehicle was a 2001 Chrysler 300M. I bought it at 6 years old and 111,000 miles, which I thought was a bit of a gamble, but I can’t think of any service it needed in the first 3 years that I owned it, other than the usual fluids and filters. In that way it was a surprising contrast to my previous car, a 1995 Camry, which I bought at 6 years old and 87,000 miles, just broken in by Toyota standards. Although it never left me stranded, it seemed to have lots of minor issues like leaky valve cover gaskets (V6), warped brake rotors, a blown starter (thankfully at home), and an air conditioner that after multiple repair attempts just had to be replaced. Also trouble starting at times without “giving it some gas,” and the electric radio antenna that wouldn’t go up in cold weather. Still thought it was a nice car though, and it even drew a couple compliments (although from older “dad” types, not the ladies).
My most ‘unexpectedly’ reliable vehicle has to be the 17 year-old Sunbeam Alpine I bought in 1984. After some considerable TLC to rectify PO neglect, I drove that car on multiple trips to Virginia Beach, Western Pennsylvania and one to Toronto Canada without a breakdown. Now I did have to redo the seats and install a new convertible top, but these weren’t reliability issues. And of course it wasn’t my only car and there was the usual normal maintenance and minor repairs. The only times it let me down in 12 years was locally when the distributor-rotor failed and later the brake-servo needed a rebuild kit. Pretty good for an ancient British car with Lucas electrics.
As for Land-Rover, all I’m going to say is any manufacturer that deletes the engine oil dipstick makes it a deal-killer for me!
Happy Motoring, Mark
Nothing wrong with Lucas electrics, I have a set in my carport that works fine and are driven almost everyday,my other daily car a French turbo diesel runs a Lucas injection pump its anvil reliable as for engine oil dipsticks light vehicle manufacturers adopting proven heavy truck tech isnt unusual, modern trucks have the oil checked via the info display screen in the cab.
My 4 Honda products, built in 89, 92, 92, and 97 were relatively trouble-free, but I bought the bare-bones model with nothing that can stop working and with manual transmissions. A reasonably well kept Honda Civic from this period can be safely bought with high mileage.
I never have understood Land Rover’s “musical chair” naming practice with this vehicle.
BTW, the latest version of this has just debuted in Europe. It is no longer tall, but instead looks quite a bit like the Evoque.
My current car is a Renault and it’s been more reliable than the last VW I owned. In Brazil VW used to have a pretty good reliability perception. I’m not sure if the public still think like that. PS: Both cars are of the same market category and almost the same model year and reached the same mileage.
A 1995 Camaro Z28 convertible (2nd new car). In 208,000 miles, only a radiator, normal maintenance and wear items. It got 24+ MPG on the highway, was very quiet for a convertible, with a lined, tight top, amazingly comfortable, quick and was a great car. I sold it last year (out of room) to a local Constable who will restore it with his son.
After all the luxury cars I’ve owned, this was by far the most reliable and dependable of them all!
At a certain point I realised that the reliable cars were the ones I maintained myself. I could often hear things coming unraveled and head them off.
Agree on shortening oil change intervals, oil is a lot cheaper than the stuff it lubricates.
You can change the trans fluid with the transfusion method: Put the cooler feed or return line in an oil pan with an extension of clear hose so you can watch the fluid. Have someone who is attentive and responsive start it, and stop after a quart or two or bubbles. Then add fresh, start, stop…repeat until fresh fluid is coming out. I buy a few quarts of of lower-grade to flush with, then put the good stuff in for the last rounds. Newer trans may not like the cheap stuff.
…which to me implies no dipstick. How do you check the oil?
Good question! There’s a level sensor in the pan. In the trip computer menu…..when the car is off and has sat for 15+ minutes. Can’t do it at a gas stop, for example, it just says “level unavailable”. I check it in the morning every couple thousand miles before starting up. Press START with your foot off the brake, so the ignition comes on without the car starting. Then go the appropriate screen in the trip computer. It has a bar graph display of the oil level.
I’ve never had to add oil a single time between changes, but I still would prefer a dipstick. I’m always wondering what will happen if the sensor fails, or heaven forbid it gives you a false “OK”.
Christ, what a stupid mess of Rube Goldberg-level doglickery.* How to know when the sensor is faulty? Why, perhaps there’s a sensor-sensor! Yuck.
(“Why does a dog lick his balls? Because he can.”)
The Mercedes dealer told me there was no way for me to change the oil myself on our GL as they suck it out the top too.
But sure enough, just like your LR, I removed one skid plate and there is an old-skool drain plug like every other vehicle. Remove, drain, refill from the top. The filter is accessed from the top as well. Super easy job.
BTW – I would NOT recommend getting under the air-suspended car. A few months ago one of my air-suspension bags exploded (while I was driving) and the car dropped onto its bumpstop on that corner. Get at least a jack or a stand under there just in case one of yours lets go. If they do ever go out, Arnott makes replacements that are A) Much cheaper than factory, B) have a great warranty and C) are definitely DIY-replacable with excellent support. Ask me how i know…
I had an airbag blow on a fully laden tractor unit one night hell of a noise and a very ugly lean, its not a regular occurence though a couple of blocks under your air suspended car should be safe enough we use a similar method under hydropneumatic Xantias.
Good to know on the struts! I’ll be writing up another COAL that touches on air struts. It was when I threw in the towel on that car. Glad to hear Arnott is a good route to go. I wasn’t sure what to do with that car, so I traded it.
I had a bunch of GM 1958 air suspension cars (Impala, Bonneville, 98 Starfire, Buick Limited, and Cad Series 62, all convertibles) I always used jack stands, a friend with a ’58 Limited did not, One front air bag blew,overloaded the old other front bag and blew it. he did not survive his mistake Also wondered if the Rover could kneel for entrance and exit, a friend had a Range Rover that dropped almost to the ground to get in (I’m in wheelchair now)
I bought an 85 Cutlass Cierra for $300 to put the engine in the one I was driving. Although possibly the ugliest car I ever owned (rust, smashed back quarter, originally brown inside and out,then painted blue) I found out it could be made roadable for$50 versus the $800 to do the motor change.
Got 4yrs, over 100,000km out of it, replaced the alternator and wiper motor and scrapped it for $200.
Don’t think I’ll ever beat that!
An “Open Diff” refers to the differential itself and it lack of any traction enhancing feature, ie limited slip, torque sensing, automatic or electric locking. In other words it sends the power to the wheel with no traction.
From the factory all axles are open to the atmosphere. If it wasn’t “open” then when things heated up from driving pressure would build to the point that it could blow out the axle seals. Or when you dropped the axle in the water when launching the boat that quick drop in pressure could cause it to suck water past the seals. In the old days it could be as simple as a .050 hole in one of the tubes like in my Scout IIs with the Dana axles. Now most 4×4 and even RWD vehicles have a nipple that attaches to a hose that is routed up higher and incorporates some sort of a filtering system or a loop to minimize liquid intrusion, at least as long as you don’t get too deep. Visit the “hard core” 4×4 forums and you’ll find threads on how they added a hose leading to a filter in the top of the engine compartment.
Thank you for that explanation! I’ve never been off roading or fjording so I should be OK then for the most part.
The 4.4 V8 actually represented the lion’s share of NA engines for the LR3, the V6 was only around for a short time and take rate was fairly low. The engine used in the LR3 was part of the new run of the Jaguar AJ-V8 adapted for truck use and did not have the Nikasil lining which was an issue with the older 4.0 and 4.2 engines. It debuted with the LR3 as the headline product to finally phase out the old Buick based Rover V8 that powered the previous Discovery.
The 5.0 was definitely a nice upgrade and makes the LR4 move much better than the 3 did, as the Jag engines could be a bit peaky compared to the diesel like torque of the Rover V8 that made the Discovery easy to drive around town and off road.
Thank you for the clarification. I’ve actually never seen a V8 LR3 in the wild that I can recall, is what I was working off of.
Really? Thats surprising! Given what you said about being in between two further off dealers that does make sense though. LR3s (and every other Land Rover) are pretty thick on the ground here in NJ and I’ve only seen maybe 2-3 V6 units and one was sitting at the dealer for almost a year when I’d take my Discovery II (which was extremely reliable for 10 years and 155k miles) in for service
I’m glad someone else mentioned this, I thought it was odd to read as well. Just do a nationwide search of used LR3s, the vast majority are indeed the V8s. The Ford V6 is best avoided in this and frankly in any application. It’s a bastardized OHV-turned-OHC design with timing chains on both sides of the motor and a reputation for chain guides and tensioners failing, necessitating an engine-out job (to access the rear chain). No, here the 4.4L V8 is definitely the way to go.
Being more of a vicarious than practicing CC-er I’ve owned mostly new or late model cars with good reliability for the last 30 years. Have owned a few unexpectedly unreliable cars … most surprising to me, perhaps, was my 1981 Datsun pickup which blew the head gasket and then lunched the transmission countershaft in less than 100,000 miles. Replaced it with a Ford Ranger which was totally reliable, though I didn’t keep it past 80K miles. I did seriously consider a 1st gen Disco in 1995, and even test drove the rare (in the US) 5 speed manual, but ended up with a Land Cruiser which was expectedly reliable.
Reliable British car! Read all about it! 😉
I’m.glad you’ve enjoyed your Discovery. Must home market examples are 3.0 litre v6 diesels, and still pass as either working vehicle with weekend capabilities or practically a Range Rover, depending on how it’s optioned and presented.
Long had a soft spot for this, even if I can’t justify choosing one for my own use