(first posted 12/29/2012. Revised and expanded 1/3/2022) GM has built some great vehicles in its day, but nothing can top their buses. They literally owned the bus market from the late thirties through the seventies, having earned that spot with superior technology and quality construction. One of the most brilliant and enduring examples of that is the “New Look” transit bus that came out in 1959. It ushered in a new era of buses with superb visibility and greater passenger comfort. It was built for almost two decades in the US, and a variation of it was built until 1997 in Canada.
For anyone who lived trough their long era, they became the iconic city bus. And there are still plenty around being used as motor homes, or hoping to be, like this one, a former Eugene (LTD) city bus.
GM acquired a controlling stake in Yellow Coach in 1925. With the introduction of their pioneering V-drive rear engine configuration in 1933, Yellow Coach buses became increasingly popular. This Model 718, a best seller, has all the hallmarks of the modern transit bus, except GM’s new two-stroke diesel engine. That would come in a few more years.
In 1940, a new series of Yellow transit buses arrived in 1940, with many innovations, including monocoque construction, a wide range of lengths and widths, wider availability of diesels and the Allison VH automatic transmission. Starting in 1943, the Yellow name was changed to GM Coach. After the New Look buses arrived, this family came to be known as the “old look” GM bus. Our history on them is here.
In 1959, the “new look” generation of GM transit buses arrived, and the changes were highly visible.
The most obvious one being the six-piece (later 4-piece) windshield, which gave these buses their nickname “fishbowl”. Driver visibility was vastly improved, and as a former driver of both of old and new look buses, the benefit was very substantial.
Some of these buses were still on the road in transit duty decades after they first saw the light of day. I saw one on a passenger run in Ashland, Oregon back in 2010. This picture is of one of the buses I drove in Iowa City in the early seventies. This is a 35′ foot version, 96″ wide, popular in smaller cities. The typical large city transit bus was the 40′ version and in 102″ length.
There were also “Suburban” versions, with individual front-facing seats and no back door.
A variation of this bus (the GM Classic) was still being produced in Canada by MCI until 1997. And GM Division Allison’s V-Series automatic was a revolution in itself. Try to imagine shifting a transit bus, double clutching every shift of the four speed un-synchronized transmission with a forty-foot long mechanical linkage. Shifts were extremely slow and arduous. The Allison was the greatest thing that ever happened to transit bus drivers.
The second breakthrough bus was GM’s over-the-road PD 4104 from 1953. It advanced the art of bus-making to a new level, with its advanced aluminum stressed-skin construction. That reduced weight, and made for an extremely rigid and solid monocoque structure. And its second, and perhaps more noticeable breakthrough was air suspension. The increase in riding comfort was dramatic. The PD 4104 set the template for all buses since, and they’re still desirable RV coach conversions.
The 4104 powered by the DD 6-71 and four-speed manual transmission (not so painful for over-the road use) could get up to 12 mpg. And of course, it spawned the legendary 4105Scenicruiser, specifically designed and produced for Greyhound. Unlike most of GM’s other buses, it suffered from some structural problems, and the complicated twin-engine (two 4-71 four cylinders) setup was also problematic, and they were all later rebuilt with a single 8-71V engine. But they were impressive sights in their day, and I remember some memorable trips in them.
GM’s New Look transit buses arrived in 1959, and used the new construction techniques that the 4104 pioneered, as well as the famous “fishbowl” front windshield.
The benefits were manifold, but none more so than for the driver. Visibility was beyond superb; it was like sitting in a green house compared to the “submarine” predecessors. And the steering was substantially lighter because of the lower weight. Note that power steering on these was highly optional; the power came from well developed arm muscles and the leverage of a large wheel and a high (numerical) steering ratio. This example undoubtedly has power steering, given its smaller non-original steering wheel.
Here’s the view of the helm with an original wheel. The shift lever for the Allison VH transmission is clearly visible here; it had only three positions: F N R. The airbrakes did the parking braking. The Allison was a god-send, but a curious affair. It had all of…one speed, technically, but two, in practice. It was really just a torque converter with a massive amount of effective gear range.
On take-off, (full throttle usually) the engine spun up to well into its rev range, and the bus would smoothly lumber away. Depending on vague factors beyond anyone’s apparent knowledge, at some speed between 30 to 35 or so, the torque converter would mechanically lock with a substantial jolt, and now the engine was in direct mechanical drive. With their low (high numerical) rear axle ratio, the transit buses could muster about 50-55 mph or so; the higher-geared Suburban versions could hit maybe 65 on a good day. Keep in mind that the 6-71V made all of 238hp.
My story of driving for Iowa City Transit in 1975-1976 is here. There were 12 of the smaller 35′ long and 96″ wide buses. like this one,
And two of the TDH-5304 big boys: 40′ long and 102″ wide, and with the bigger 318hp 8V-71 engine. The 35 footers were nimble compared to the forties, and one could whip them about pretty quickly in some of the older narrower streets of town. But the slightly newer 40 footers had one other nice feature in addition to the bigger engine: the throttle pedal was air actuated, instead of the mechanical linkage of the older buses. Not only did the mechanical linkage engender knee-ache (to go along with the back ache from the mechanical steering), but one jammed up on me one memorable day. E-pedals were still an engineer’s dream.
The bus in this photo has been converted by an enthusiastic Oregon Ducks football fan for game day parties in the parking lot.
That explains the interior remodel: the Ducks party bus.
The other bus I found is an old left-over from Eugene’s fleet of these 4523s, and is the victim of a botched conversion attempt, not an uncommon thing. How compelling it is to buy an a tired old transit bus with millions of miles under its belt to convert to the ultimate get-away vehicle. Some have the resources; others don’t, as these two variations of the theme illustrate graphically.
I’ve been tempted to go down this road myself, especially with a handsome PD 4104 conversion. But it’s probably a good thing I’ve resisted, since I like to take my little Chinook in places a 35′ bus would never get out again. But whenever I see one, it does tug on my heart.
I got distracted on RV conversions, and forgot to talk about how GM’s bus hegemony fell apart. It fell victim to the same factors (and others) that undid its car (and big truck) market share: sinking reliability caused in part due to government influence and a changing marketplace with nimbler new competitors. Since the feds fund the overwhelming share of all transit capital expense (but not operating costs), they started meddling early on with the bus designs themselves. The biggest one was the Transbus project to develop a new generation of buses in the seventies. GM’s proposal for that ill-fated boondoggle evolved into the GM RTS bus (above).
I’m not exactly an expert on the RTS, but it arrived with complications and issues, unlike the New Look buses. The Canadians (wisely) wanted no part in this new generation of buses, and kept the New Look in production for decades. The RTS had a very checkered career, and eventually GM got out of the transit business, selling the RTS design to MCI, which eventually passed it along again. It was an unloved child that ended up in four foster homes before it was finally surpassed by newer and more desirable designs.
GM’s over-the road coach business went on a bit longer, but eventually there were no new products, and it withered away. But GM’s buses from their golden era will undoubtedly be seen on the roads for decades, as RVs and increasingly, as restored classics, or just party buses.
More GMC buses:
GMC TDH-5101 “Old Look” Transit Bus – GM’s Greatest Hit #9 Despite Being The Agent Of A Deadly Sin
1947 GMC PD-3751 “Silversides” Coach – The First Modern Diesel Bus
GMC PD-4101 The Most Dominant and Influential Bus Ever
GMC PD-4501 Greyhound Scenicruiser – Everyone’s Favorite Bus Except For Greyhound And GMC
Amazingly Paul some of these buses have escaped the US no photo sorry but I saw a converted GM transit bus in Napier thanks to your previous article I knew what I was looking at.
Its tough to say that a fishbowl you see on the road today has “50 years of service” etc, they made them until 1986, maybe even later, without any changes at all. I have not seen one in actual service in a while. Miami International Airport used to have about 15 of them in service until about 10 years ago as employee shuttles from the terminal to parking lot. My first visit to Alaska in 1996 I was surprised to see that most of the municipal buses in Anchorage were bright yellow fishbowls too.
NYC transit has a coulpe of old GM buses that they run from time to time on short runs in the city, which is pretty cool too.
Fair enough; I’ve amended that a bit. Nice to see that NY Transit one; I remember that color scheme from our visit there in 1964.
They even have an older early 50’s GM bus too. The RTS sold well at the start, Los Angleles was flooded with them in hte 80′ as was NYC. We had them down here in Miami as “MetroBus” too, they were everywhere. It think there was an issue with gov mandates about wheelchair accesibility(floor height? loading? etc?) that caued both GM and and I think Flxible to drop out of gov bidding and them GM decided to sell out its bus business altogether to TMC who then sold the RTS to NovaBus who then sold it to another company who still makes it now.
The RTS is a good looking industrial design, its aged very well in its last 35 years.
Agreed. The RTS has had a long life, and is a good looking bus. I know there were some teething problems, and it was redesigned a couple of times; the first to fill out the sloping rear for a larger and better A/C system, and later to convert the angle drive to a T-drive, allowing use of the 4-cycle DD Series 50 engine. Also, opening windows were added, because they were a nightmare if the A/C crapped out.
Many operators were a bit hesitant at first, in part because they New Look buses gave such excellent service and were easy and cheap to fix. All buses eventually became more complex, and that created more challenges.
The first series had an interesting sloped rear end, but it meant a smaller interior space, another reason operators weren’t too keen on it, having to give up seating room. But almost all were converted to the vertical rear end to house the upgraded A/C.
I remember when the RTS went into service in Philly around 1980, give or take a year. The existing fleet of fishbowls had suffered from years of not-so-benign neglect and were particularly unpleasant in the summer when all the open windows rattled like mad, traffic fumes and noise wafted in and the bus was still a sweatbox. Hopping onto a brand new RTS with the A/C quietly humming was like being transported forward a couple decades in time. As iconic as the fishbowl bus is, I’m not sure that the mass of mass transit riders missed it that much.
The RTS did have a “monorail-futureworld” kinda look when it came out, checkout the broughamy interior of the original demonstrator, doubtful any RTS’s were ever this nice inside.
Found a great video from 1978 of the RTS start of service in Detroit! They were $96K a piece in 78!
And another very cool video featuring the assembly and roll out of the first RTS’s for Long Beach CA, some very cool video of the assembly process.
Back when I was a teenager in Los Angeles and somewhat dependent on the RTD to get us around with my friends, we rode a lot of the RTS’s. The biggest advantage to them vs the older buses were that they were air-conditioned, which was a huge boon in the 100 degree summers after you were standing curbside for up half an hour. I do recall the RTS’s being very plasticky inside compared to the older ones and not nearly as charming. But for a long ride through the valley, they were just the ticket.
@Carmine — The Golden Gate Bridge buses that you posted above have even nicer interiors, with large captain-style chairs and luggage racks along the ceiling. They serve Marin County which is one of the wealthiest places in the nation.
There’s a whole fleet of them, about 20 different buses, that they run in regular service every December. It’s pretty awesome, and they do the same thing with the Transit Museum’s vintage subway cars as well. I tried to catch one of the buses this year, but the few days I was in that area (they usually only operate on the M42 route) it was raining so they weren’t running. I did get to see one of the GM New Look buses (pretty sure it was the same one in your picture) parked as a display piece near my office at least.
When I went on my Alaska cruise in 2010, they were still using the fish bowls in Juneau for tourist buses. They probably use them mostly during the short tourist season from May through September. So they probably have comparatively low mileage. When I first drove for Portland city bus transit in 1981, they had a lot of the short 35ft fishbowls. They were only 6 cyl. 2 speed, so they were slow on the hills and only 50mph top speed on the highway.
The two GMC New Looks that NYC Transit runs are examples that are in their Heritage Fleet. They have a number of their retired coaches in the fleet that they run from time to time for special occasions. For a former bus operator like myself, these buses being back lots of good memories (and a few not so good memories too!). I have driven both the New Look and RTS buses, and while the RTS had a lot of advances over the New Look, I still prefer the New Look buses. The later models with the 8V-71 and Allison three speed transmissions were excellent – they would move on out! The buses we had with the 6V-71 engines were terribly under powered. I’ve attached a picture of one of the New Looks like the ones I drove here in Dallas, TX.
THIS is a bus! A huge step forward from those that preceeded it.
Great article Paul, your earlier article on TTAC is what got me hooked on CC.
I wish I could ride one of these. But since I can’t, there’s a couple of videos on YouTube of former AC Transit #942 that recall what it was like. It was so cool as that engine spooled up and then the bus surged forward as the torque converter locked up. In those days I thought they had just stuck the world’s largest Powerglide back there.
With building so many lock up torque converters for these buses, it’s surprising how bad GM’s initial automotive lock up units were.
I don’t ride a bus very often, but when I do I always think of the New Look.
I rode the AC Transit “Fishbowl” buses in regular service in the late 1960s. The nicest ones were shorter and narrower and had high backed fabric seats and air conditioning. The full size transit buses were full length and width, with plain, prisoner-grade vinyl benches and “open-the-window” climate control.
As a former transit bus driver, I can attest to those New Looks with the “worlds largest Powerglide” transmissions! Here in Dallas where I drove, we had the 40′, 96″ wide buses with the 6V-71 Detroit Diesel engines and the Allison VH transmissions. The buses seated 45 people, but with standees, you could get 75-80 (or more) crammed into them. I remember once leaving Downtown Dallas during rush hour, headed out on my route with a “standing load.” There was one section of my route that went up a steep hill, and you basically started uptake hill from a standing start, as you had to make a left turn, then go up the hill. I remember having that thing floored, the engine screaming, and the bus barely moving up the hill. We made it up the hill, but I was holding my breath all the way! I really was afraid that the engine was going to stall out. But that goes to show how tough those old buses were!
When I see one of these, I think of the movie “Speed” for some reason….
The most famous fishbowl probably.
I LOVE the fishbowl bus!
I didn’t get my driver’s license until I turned 18, and so if I wanted to get anywhere in my hometown of South Bend, Indiana, I turned to the city bus system. Half of their buses were fishbowls and the other half were made by AM General, which was a local company. This was in the early to mid 1980s. I would have rather ridden in a fishbowl any day of the week. They were better built and they just looked cool.
I sang in the middle-school choir and practice was at 7 am. I used to board a city bus at 6:20 in the morning for my trip to school in the dark. I got to know the driver and his fishbowl, and one day, with just he and I aboard, he stopped by his house (which happened to be on the route) to show me a Model A he was hot rodding.
One day a couple years ago I stumbled across a photo on Flickr of the very bus he drove, at the end of its life in a junkyard. Here’s the story: http://blog.jimgrey.net/2012/02/09/aboard-2163-2/
Great piece, Paul and I particularly appreciate your perspective as a driver and your explanation of how GM lost its hegemony over the bus market, which always puzzled me. They were everywhere and suddenly, they were gone.
When these buses came out in 1959, St.Louis’ Bi-State transportation began getting them, and when mom took me downtown one hot, summer day after the streetcars were gone, I got my first ride in one – can you imagine my wonderment? – it was AIR-CONDITIONED! Holy cow, that WAS a big deal!
Their predicessors soldiered on well into the early 1980’s – I rode on plenty of the “old-look” ones in 1976-77 when I commuted before I married. By that time, the old buses were pretty beat and even though newer buses came out, Bi-State relied on newer “New-Look” models for many years.
Zackman, you’re reminding me of the old Bi-State commercials and their jingle. “Bi-State..[honk-honk]..we’re going your way!” The honks were from a fishbowl I think, but they sure sounded old fashioned.
Also reminds me of the old Tipton’s appliance store commercials that ran in the 70s and 80s filmed at a bus stop. At the end, the smart guy told the dumb guy (dumb because he didn’t know about the amazing deals there) “well don’t miss the bus!” Just as a Bi-State fishbowl was pulling away, with the awesome sounding 6V at full bore.
But now, after writing all this down, I guess I digress….
Wow, Stainsey, where did you live? I originally grew up in north STL until Ike took our home for I-70, then to Jennings then to Florissant until 20 years ago when we moved to the Cincinnati area.
More digressing:
Tipton: Bought lots of stuff from them, including our first VCR in 1984.
Tipton became Silo, which morphed into Circuit City, I think…
I got a kick out of the Tipton spokesman and wonder who he was – he did a very good job.
Now if you want to talk about Steve Mizerany…
Back to topic – more or less:
Bi-State also began a local feeder bus service called “Orbit” in 1975. They used Argosy CBs – glorified motorized Airstream coaches. The service lasted a year…
I rode Greyhound regularly between Marysville, Ca and Sacramento in late 1969-early 1970 before I bought my avatar. I dislike Bus travel, but I got several chances to ride the original California Zephyr until it was cancelled in March 1970 – now THAT was cool!
Wifey worked for Trailways when I met her. Those Eagles were the nicest long-haul buses available then. I believe they were German-made, but Paul can confirm that.
Creve Coeur, now in SoCal.
Silo, I remember that. Named after husband and wife Sy and Lois. Got a great deal on Bose speakers at their going out of biz sale back in the day.
Steve Mizerany was a Decent Booooooyyyyyy
I remember the “Orbit” service!! You guys remember when St Louis spent Millions changing all the bus stop signs to “BUS START”? I lived in St Louis MO for 35 yrs. We rode the bus down to south Kingshighway to go to the “Ventures” store at Kingshighway south of Chippewa st. Those were the days!! -Louie
Didn’t know about the twinned 4-71s in the Scenicruisers I just thought they were all 8V mills to start with. I’d love to find a print of that setup, good idea on paper but not in practice I guess.
There was no 8-71V back then, so that was their solution. When the 8-71V came along a few years later, they were all converted. When I come across a Scenicruiser, I’ll do an in-depth post on that.
I remember seeing several hundred of these (ex-MARTA) awaiting final disposition in a large lot off I-75/85 near Atlanta Area Tech every day going to and from work. They were *everywhere* in Atlanta when I was in college (early 80s).
The interesting thing about the New Look buses was that they were just as popular in the used bus market as they were brand new from GM. In Dallas, we had around 600 New Look buses, and while some of them were scrapped (the older 1964 models with “a million miles” on them), the 1966, 1967, 1969, and 1971 models were all sold to other transit properties – Honolulu, HI; El Paso, TX; Oklahoma City, OK; and San Diego, CA. A handful of buses were sold to individuals and private charter operators.
WHAT KIND OF STARTERS DO THE BUSES HAVE ,THEY SOUND LIKE THEY WORK ON COMPRESSED AIR
All the buses I’ve been around had electric starters, powered by several big batteries in series. And they always started up quickly for me.
The majority of the New Look buses had three 12v batteries – two batteries for starting the engine at 24v, and one 12v battery for the headlights, marker lights, taillights, etc. There was a step up transformer inside the bus that stepped up the voltage to 110v AC for the interior lighting which was provided by fluorescent tubes. The early New Looks used incandescent light bulbs to light the front destination sign from the inside, while the later buses used a fluorescent tube to light it. Many of the New Looks manufactured after 1975 or so used the digital destination signs. The Detroit Diesel engines in the late run of New Looks (those manufactured in Canada by the GM Diesel Division) after 1974 used either the Detroit 6V92 or 8V92 (known as the Silver 92) engines which utilized an air starter. The Silver 92 was used by other bus manufacturers besides GM. Our transit property had a huge fleet of Neoplan AN440 buses which replaced our New Looks and the Neoplans all used the 6V92 engines.
So if Scenicruisers could muster 12 mpg, what do modern buses manage on the highway?
I didn’t say the big Scenicruisers could do that, but the smaller 35′ PD4101, with the 6-71 six and a mechanical transmission. And that was the best case scenario, rolling along at around 55-60.
Modern buses are much larger and heavier, most are 45′ long, and with big powerful engines and today’s higher speeds, I’d guess around 5-7, maybe 8 mpg.
Given how well built the chassis were it might have been cheaper in the long run to just repower all the busses with a modern diesel and say 8 speed Alison automatic. I’d love to start with one of those suckers for an RV project.
The big problem is lack of handicapped accessibility. That was the main reason for the new government regs for what became the GMC RTS bus and others. Since the purchase money for almost all city buses comes from the feds, they can mandate accessibility and other features.
There have been several generations in bus designs since then, to make them more accessible. The latest low-floor buses are very easy to get in and out of, and don’t require complicated lifts and such. The floor is just inches away from the street, and at curb height.
There have been numerous other improvements in bus design, many of them originating in Europe, not surprisingly.
This bus is a New Flyer D40LF which had been in production since late 1987 and still in limited production today with their C40LF versions made for MTA New York City Transit. It may not look that old nor its even considered a classic bus but the design had already been around for at least a quarter of a century.
The bus service at NC State University, where I worked for 12 years, switched over to that same model of bus, the D40LF, in 2007. Nice buses, and an improvement over the older Blue Birds that they replaced.
When I arrived at the Frankfurt airport we deplaned away from the gates and had to enter buses to get to the building. They used the low-rider trick and dropped the bus hydraulically or by air pressure to 2 or 3 inches off ground. They were extremely quiet and the driver was related to the Schumacher family, I think.
I believe they were Mercedes Benz hybrid buses. That acceleration is only possible with electric motors.
Bus fans will enjoy this promo: https://www.mercedes-benz.com/en/mercedes-benz/vehicles/buses/silence/
Nice to see an Edmonton Transit low-floor Flyer in this feature. These buses make up the bulk of Edmonton’s fleet. Trolley buses disappeared a few years ago and the last of the Fishbowls a few years before that. Thankfully transit bus enthusiasts have preserved some of the old buses. Search a few storage lots or wrecking yards around here and you can still find some Fishbowls rotting away.
Edmonton Transit still has a 1960 Fishbowl (first model TDH-5301) in their historic fleet. It’s a beautiful bus, and I had the chance to ride it on one of the historic tours a few years ago.
Here’s ETS 438.
I have a 1960 fishbowl fully converted in the Santa Rosa area 4517 825
Hopefully the next time ETS brings out all their restored buses I’ll be able to attend. Buses from the fifties and early sixties (GM, Brill) bring back fond memories of when I used transit regularly as a young student or working at the downtown library.
I actually remember riding that particular bus in the 1970’s when it was still in regular service. That day, it was running the ‘J8’ route along 107th Avenue into North Glenora. I recall it being an early example of the ‘New Look’ as it had single-row flourescent lighting along the center of the ceiling as opposed to the later backlit advertising signage on each side, and mid-height window latches.
Absolutely correct later models had they light behind the ads. I rode a lot of buses while going to school in Calgary, then later as a young working stiff commuting from Forest Heights to downtown Edmonton where I worked at the Centennial Library.
Yes, the front doors on the RTS would not accommodate a wheel chair lift, so GM’s “fix” was to install the lifts on the rear exit doors. The front door lifts were used on the Flexble 870 and Metro buses. And I will say that they were a mechanical nightmare! When they worked, they were great, but when the malfunctioned, they could be a real nightmare. Thank goodness for the new generation of low floor buses that eliminate the lift system in favor of a simple ramp that folds in and out.
My university used to have one of these as the shuttle bus between the campus and the parking lot, so I ride it often. Even though back then I don’t know anything about it, I was always fascinated by the bus’ distinctive styling, and the distinctive moan of its Detroit diesel engine. I wonder if that bus is still in use today…
Loved the bus history, except for the myth about GM buying light rail companies to make them buy buses. It was ubiquitous automobile ownership and the resulting urban sprawl that killed trolley cars. Interurbans and such became obsolete and unattractive modes of transportation. By the time GM bought a rail line it was already doomed if not bankrupt. Economics prof Craig Newmark (“Newmark’s Door” blog) wrote a great explanation why “No” is the answer to the question “Did GM destroy urban mass transit in America?”.
BTW, only an incurable romantic would think commuters a century ago actually enjoyed riding in trolley cars. (OK, it’s better than a horse.)
The issue is a bit complex, like many things. There’s no question that there was a huge shift to suburbs, cars and freeways. But GM did buy those lines and shut them down. And what exactly was a manufacturer doing buying inter-urban and trolley lines?
Actually, some folks soon came to miss some of the better lines, like the ones in LA. And of course, now they’re being rebuilt, or new ones. And some people do like riding light rail and trolleys. It’s not a black and white situation.
The ones in LA that are rebuilt or are getting rebuilt are on former PE red car lines, which National City Lines (the holding company GM and other conspirators funded) never obtained. NCL only obtained the LARY yellowcar lines in LA which as far as I know only operated on surface streets with no private right of ways, those routes were the ones converted to bus, the redcar system was simply abandoned after many years of operating in the red and an ancient infrastructure in dire need of costly updates.
I think GM and co. may have accelerated the end of the Streetcar but I don’t think it was as diabolical as the scandal makes it out to be. The whole system was in decline with busses already being phased in in place up until WWII, the electric streetcar only became profitable again during those war years when rationing was in effect, but after the war ended ridership declined back to the prewar levels and for anyone business savvy watching this unfold like a GM or a Firestone, or an oil company or two you can see the desire to be ahead of the game with their own products to fill the void left by the inevitable end of the streetcar system.
And P.E. was well on it’s way to convert as many streetcar lines as possible over to bus service before Jesse Haugh’s Metropolitain Coach Lines bought P.E.’s passenger service from owner Southern Pacific. For the whole story try to find a copy of ‘Railways To Freeways’ by Eli Bail.
I ride TTC streetcars in Toronto everyday and love it. Buses feel decidedly second grade.
The thing I remember most about those old buses were their rattling windows. They’re all gone now but just fairly recently.
My Grandpa drove the old buses and the streetcars and would take me for rides as a kid til the end of the line. We’d eat a sandwich, he would do some chin-ups on the overhead hand rails then we’d go back.
“Rattling windows.” Funny how sometimes certain events or details of experiences stand out in ones life. It’s true, the windows on those buses did rattle. And if I think a while there are other little details I can remember about th fishbowl buses and the GM old look. Like the exhaust note of the old look buses.
On the New Looks that I rode on, the windows simply slid back and forth in place to open and close, with what looked like a fuzzy material that acted like a sort of bushing between the window and the surrounding frame. Worn material would result in rattling windows when they were open. Also, each window was an emergency exit; there was a long, small hinge at the top of the window on the outside, and a push at the bottom of the window from the inside would swing the whole window assembly out, frame and all. Problem was, it was sort of like a friction fit, and over time the friction would be lost and the windows would sometimes swing open as a bus passed over the crown of a crossing street just before reaching the stop at the corner.
Those ’emergency release’ latches at the base of the window were introduced starting with the 1973 or ’74.model year. They did have a plastic retainer which held it in firmly that was designed to break away with a light push on the window once the lever was raised up. Of course, many of them got tampered with over the years in service, and many transit systems probably gave up continually replacing the plastic retainer and let them remain loose.
Actually, the PCC trolleys were quite comfortable and were smooth riding and quiet in operation. The older trolleys were the ones that could be real “shake – rattle – and roll” nightmares! The majority of riders that rode the trolleys preferred the PCC cars to other trolleys or buses.
Those fabulous Old Look buses serviced the border cities of Juarez and El Paso as shuttles just for border crossing. Although they were very old for the time, certainly they were superb vehicles compared with the Mexican city buses. They’re no longer in service and the bus company was shut down. The New Look buses that replaced this vehicles in El Paso were ubiquitous and very reliable and comfortable rides. I saw them every time my parents took us to El Paso. I wanted to ride one of these and my father was so kind as to let me board them several times while the rest of the family was shopping downtown. When the ride was over, I reluctantly stepped out the bus. Great experience for a kid riding alone in a city of another country!
I know I replied to this last night, but I guess it got lost in the cosmos somehow…
Anyway, great article – these buses are cool. My main thing was that I wanted to post this video of a 29′ Fishbowl. The smallest ones (which were extremely rare) didn’t have the Detroit Diesel powerplant, but instead had a 478 cubic inch Toro-Flow diesel GMC V6 – and it sounds amazing!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUku–Dr9Dc
An even smaller number had the gas V6, from a very quick bit of research it seems like it was only 10-15 buses built that way – none of which still exist.
Thanks for that important addition. I realized I had left out the “baby” in the fishbowl family. These were meant to replace the previous generation of “lesser-duty” Old-look buses, that were built a bit lighter and used a GMC inline gasoline six for power.
These 29 footers were not very common; I’ve only ever seen a few.
I’m wondering what transmission this bus used. Maybe not the Allison VH.
The description in the YouTube video says it’s an Allison MT-41 6-speed automatic, but I’m not sure if that’s original or if it was retrofitted at some point. It would make sense if it’s original, though. I looked it up and MT-series transmissions corresponded to the same years these buses were built.
That would be right. It was also used in the Old Look small gas-powered buses.
I own the bus shown in the video. The MT-41 transmission is the original.
The gasoline versions used a V6 as well, not an in-line 6 and there were 13 made with gas engines.
Of my model, TDH-3301, there were 113 made. Mine is number 112.
A scan of the sales brochure for the 3301 is attached.
Your bus should be a TGH-3301. The TDH stands for “Transit-Diesel-Hydraulic”. The gasoline engined buses had a “TGH” nomenclature.
Here’s a blurb that describes it: “The General Motors TGH-3301 was a 30 foot New Look built from 1969 to 1971 in the United States. It was powered by a GMC 351 V6 gasoline engine. Sometimes referred to as “Baby” New Looks or Fishbowls, these buses were termed light-duty coaches, and most parts for these buses were not interchangeable with larger 35′ and 40′ counterparts.”
They used a DH 478 Toroflow and an Allison MT-41. They do not use a ‘V-drive’ arrangement, the engine and transmission are installed longitudinally. The TDH-3301’s were substantially different than the other New Looks. A few were even built with GMC gasoline V-6’s.
Here is a photo of the engine compartment in my TDH-3301. This is the original Toro-Flow DH-478 diesel.
Ohio Museum of Transportation has a roster of transit buses built from 1960-1995, 96′ to 102′ 33ft. to 40 ft.
They ran 20 or so of the baby fishbowls with the toroflow diesel in Asheville NC until 1995 when they were replaced by Orion Vs. The maintenance dept got what they thought was “deal” on a truckload of crate engine Toroflows. All went well until the test drive when upon putting the transmission in drive 1 and flooring the gas the bus zoomed backwards. The crate engines were suspected to be marine engines with the wrong rotation. From then on every engine swap we did, we had to change cams and injector pumps
Reading this I now understand why Jackie Gleason was always screaming in “the honeymooners”—-his bus was pre-Allison.
LOL! But I have had (1987-1990) a Honeymooners calender where Jackie’;s in a ALLISON bus!
To anyone who is interested I recommend the book, “Welcome Aboard the New Look Bus”, by John H. McKane and Gerald L. Squier. They illustrate styling and equipment differences to help recognize the variations in the four Fishbowl generations.
I really enjoy the bus articles and photos as I too had a short stint in the mid 1970’s as an operator, with the Birmingham, Alabama Transit System. The majority of the fleet was 1958 TDH-4512 “Old Looks”. The first “New Looks” were 1960 TDH-4517’s. In 1965 they leased from Greyhound several TDH-5303’s that had been used at the New York World’s Fair. I also operated Flexible “New Looks” and some AM Generals they had.
I probably spent more time in these buses than anything yet covered by CC. Mostly new look, some of the previous generation. It’s hard to believe, but starting at age 6 I was allowed (expected) to get around a large urban area on my own and the bus was the way to do it. I say on my own, but often in the company of my older sister and almost always in the company of other kids, and we certainly made the driver’s and other passengers’ lives miserable. Thanks for the explanation on how the transmission worked. I still remember a massive CLUNK when the converter locked, and I never understood how the driver “shifted” without seeming to do anything (our family car was a Volvo with the long stick shift which my Mom used to row the car along). The new look buses were roomier, more comfortable and more powerful … I remember a few times on an old look bus, the driver asked people to get off the bus so he could start on a steep hill, and he’d wait for us at a more level spot on the other side of the intersection. I don’t know if that was a 4-71 or 6-71 vs 8-71 thing, or the gearing was different. A few years ago I bought a diecast Corgi Classic 1:50 scale new look bus in the AC Transit livery of the time … but unfortunately with a route number that I never rode.
Up till the early 2000’s New looks were the backbone of Canadian transit fleets and there are still a few used in Calgary and possibly Edmonton Alberta, but only for rush hour or school runs. The only ones left now are the 81-82 model years and they’re looking rough,kinda sad really but progress is enivetable. Still has my vote as the best bus ever built’ IMHO.
If any of your readers are interested, I own the VERY LAST AMERICAN BUILT new look bus that came out of the Pontiac Michigan Truck & Coach plant.
It is a 1977 T6H4523-N-2562 sold new to Wausau Wisconsin. 35 ft Transit series.
The story I got when it was sold to me was as follows, have no way to actually confirm this though so take it with whatever you take to swallow stories – Wausau had ordered 12 New Look buses, and GM ceased the production line on December 31, 1976 still owing Wausau the 12 buses. They offered up the RTS Series which is what they were converting over to. The Canadians, who were still building the New Looks ( through 1986 ) at their Diesel Division, told Wausau not to buy the RTS buses, claiming they were not well developed and that Wausau would be sorry if they bought the new buses ( I suspect if this is true that the Canadians might have figured that Wausau would buy the Canadian buses ) Wausau told GM they were under contract fort he New Looks andt hat is what they wanted, so GM had to restart the assembly line for the last 12 New Looks to be built in AMerica, and the bus I own is the last of those 12. It was purchased out of California in 2011 and is still driven today to vintage car shows with an antique tag on display. The side advertising spaces on the bus are hung with bus license plates from all 50 states in alphabetical order – 25 plates per side. This is also one of the very few New Look’s that GM sold with the Allison V-730 transmission.
Chris Breeze – Martinsburg WV
The Wausau New Looks were the only 12 US BUILT with a V730 transmission. There were lots of Canadian ones built with the V730. This information is from the book “The General Motors New Look Bus – Photo Archive” by John McKane which also says Wausau got in just under the wire to order these last New Look buses; it doesn’t mention having to restart the assembly line.
You’ve got to post a picture! And I’m not just saying that because you mentioned the license plates.
The New Look buses were a mainstay of the TTC fleet in Toronto for a long time, and the last ones were only retired in December 2011. They were featured in the “Spadina Bus” video by the Shuffle Demons back in the ’80’s. The New Look IS The Bus.
Is the PD4104 the bus GM tried to make into a railroad coach when it built the gaudy little Areotrain?
Yes. I must get to that one of these days soon.
Great article.
Calgary Transit has just retired the very last of its New Looks – made in 1978. Article at http://www.calgarycitynews.com/2014/02/calgary-transits-new-fleet-hits-streets.html
I certainly remember the “New Look” buses in Westchester County, New York. I liked the color schemes that they were painted in. The buses operated by Liberty Coaches were painted red with some black, white and gold accents. The Club Transportation buses were painted blue with some white accents. The Westchester Street Transportation Company buses were painted cadet blue with a thin gold stripe at the belt line with a white accent in the front. Of course they left the lower portion of the bus unpainted. I rode these buses during the early to middle part of the 1980s. Many of the fishbowl buses in Westchester County were powered by a Detroit Diesel 8V-71 engine and usually a 2 speed transmission. Some of them had a 3 speed transmission.
Jeff, that 3-spd. may have been the Allison VS-2-6/8 series or later V730 [with RND21, the first post-FNR ;0]. Also, while we’re at it, the option for the formal “FORWARD/NEUTRAL/REVERSE” selection [though maybe from competing Spicer] was also widespread on those. Speaking of which, the solenoid toggle switch 1970s option ith that was standard [no FNR, baby! I presume though Allison made those switch operated auto.s in the 70s].
The last Fishbowl was made in Canada in 1986 & delivered to Santa Monica Municipal Bus Lines, fleet number 5180!! I know because that was my bus when I worked there!! fishbowls are the best designed bus ever made!!
I rode in 5180 a few times. Glad to hear it has been preserved. Those later New Looks had 6V-92T’s and V-730’s in them. Still sounded about the same.
Nice Article. I’ve had New-Look busses on the brain lately because of some magnificent treasures I happened to acquire this week.
I was born and largely grew up in Santa Cruz California which had a large number of New Looks in its city transit system. The Santa Cruz Metro busses then had a beautiful blue color scheme–probably the prettiest livery I’ve ever seen on a new look. I seldom rode the bus as a child, but the few times I did it was always a big deal, and everything about it was exciting, and those early rides aboard Santa Cruz Metro New Looks made lasting memories.
I moved away in my early teens, but sometimes visited my dad in the bay area and used the AC Transit system to get into San Francisco. By that time in the mid 1980s AC was well into the process of phasing out their New-Look fleet, but every once in a while they’d pull one out of mothballs and put it on the L route over the bridge, which was always a nice surprise–the old New Looks were the only busses which still had comfy padded seats instead of those ridged molded plastic affairs.
Santa Cruz was also phasing out the New Looks when I moved back there for a few years in the early nineties and made much more frequent use of the bus system, but it was always a treat when I got to ride one of them. Aside from the chromed 1950s styling on the outside, the interiors of the New Looks were also beautiful, not to mention comfortable, since, as with the AC fleet, the New Looks were the only busses in the SC Metro fleet with padded seats. The most noticeable thing about the interiors of the New Looks, aside from all the shiny aluminum, were the ceiling panels with the gold sparkles and the little sputnik designs.
Fast forward twenty years. I just got a van that I’m slowly turning into a small RV for seeing the world, or as much of it as I can see on weekends. When I started thinking up designs for the interior, one of the things I wanted to evoke was the interior of the old Santa Cruz busses from my childhood, and I thought of ways to make a ceiling with a similar design to what I remembered, never once thinking I could actually get the real thing. In November I made a trip to Santa Cruz. I had been wanting to get some old Santa Cruz dealer license plate frames, so I decided to make a visit to a local auto junkyard and see if they had any.
While browsing about the place–which was beautiful as only a junkyard in Santa Cruz county can be–I was flabbergasted to find an old Santa Cruz Metro New-Look. The owners weren’t even keeping it for parting out, but were using it as a shed for storing old transmissions. I made a deal for the ceiling panels and some aluminum trim, and returned there this weekend to collect. This particular bus had crashed in 1990 and had been sitting in the junkyard for the last 25 years, with trees growing against it and blackberry bushes pushing through the windows. It was a testament to how well these busses were constructed when–after a lot of huffing and puffing–I got the panels out and found the insulation and electrical parts above looking as new as when they left the factory. Getting the aluminum trim off was so difficult that I gave up on it for this trip and decided to return for it later. The panels are exciting enough for now.
Does anyone know if this ceiling panel design–in Santa Cruz they were white with gold sparkles and blue sputniks–was the same for all New Looks through the production run? Were there options for different ceiling designs, different colors for different agencies, or changes over the span of the production run?
Here in Toronto I remember many of them had this “sparkles and sputniks” design on the celing, I want to say the newer into the 80s models built in Canada had something else, or possibly the TTC started replacing them for some reason during one of the many refits of the fleet.
5304 is a 96 inch wide model
I had a TDH3301 w/a Toro-flow.I wished I had the $$ @ the time when the engine gave out to repower it.It was in pretty good shape used @ Detroit airport as a shuttle bus.
I used it to haul stuff to a flea market a couple of times before the motor blew.It was easy to drive being short.It sue road nice over potholes & bumpsMy previous bus which I went back to using was a 53 Chevy w/a 57 235 6 cyl that got around 14 mpg.
Those new look busses were in service in Vancouver probably until the early-mid 90’s. IIRC they held onto them so long that on some routes they went from those straight to the Newflyers that we have today.
I still remember sitting in the very back row basically on top of the engine, listening to the 6-71 scream till it sounded like it was about to explode and then the big kathunk when the TC locked. These busses had character in spades. I’d love to get one to do a motorcoach conversion on (there is actually a local guy here with one with an 8v92t swap and a 10-speed road ranger, sooooo nice).
Excellent article, Paul. The GM Old Look and New Look buses ran simultaneously in Ottawa, Canada until the mid/late 1970s. As the Old Looks were retired from regular service. In 1973, when the Ottawa Transportation Commission became OC Transpo, the new look buses received the new red and white color scheme, while the old look models kept their original beige, red and brown color schemes until they were retired.
Starting in 1982, four Southern Ontario cities began using articulated versions of the New Look (TA60-102N) with GM Classic front clips. As a student, I rode a number of these in Toronto and Ottawa. They were eventually replaced with the rust prone Orion Ikarus in both cities.
When I saw all these GM buses as a kid, watching TV and movies, I immediately recognized their engine sound.
I didn’t know anything about the buses and their engines, but the two-stroke Detroit Diesels -I learned their name later- sounded very familiar since local truckmaker FTF also used them (plus GM’s Allison transmissions).
Being young, I rode the bus a lot. Going to relatives, the city, school swimming lessons, school- and other trips: all by bus. Although the “fun trips” were made by more luxurious coaches. From 1967 to 1988 all public transport buses looked like the one below, as this was the “standard bus”, built by several busbuilders (photo courtesy of Fred de Ligt).
A few years ago a National Bus Museum has been opened, with 40 to 50 classic buses and coaches. It’s about time I have a closer look at them.
PS: that bus will bring you straight to the grave, although it’s not a hearse.
We had some of these in Israel, too, all built on Royal Tiger chassis when the Israeli coachbuilders could not meet demand. I spent lots of time on these, they were better appointed than the Israeli equivalents and better looking. One has been preserved at the Egged bus museum in Holon…
Almost all standard buses were either DAF based or Leyland based. The bus in my comment is a
Den Oudsten (coachbuilder) – DAF (rolling chassis). Several other coachbuilders made them too.
The last Leyland-based bus was built in 1981, as DAF chassis were cheaper. Combined with the fact that Leyland’s overall quality and service were declining.
The strange Thing is, none of the DAFs imported back then to Israel ever had Dutch bodies – all got Israeli ones…
These were the first vehicles that I ever rode in that had air ride suspension. I wasn’t aware of that fact at the time but I did notice that these were very nice riding buses.
When I first went to Toronto in 2005, I rode the New Look buses a lot as they were still on duty on the 89 Line I used everyday to go home despite being phased out through the city in favor of the Orion VII buses. They lasted in major number on 89 Line for at least a year before disappearing. The last time I rode one was in late-2007 going to the Toronto City Hall area before taking this picture.
It was a great bus with a nice engine and exhaust note. I still miss them when I go to Toronto.
Great article – and great to see it get a re-print. Having no car in our family growing up in Columbus Ohio, the bus was our main form of transportation, hence my life-long passion. I must have been all of five years old but I can still distinctly remember when the New Looks arrived in Columbus in what was likely 1960 or 61 and our first ride. The difference between them and the Old Looks was dramatic; as Paul mentioned they much more airy, had a much “brighter” interior (light green if I remember), and were much quieter. The VH transmission seemed much smoother also, even thought there was still a noticeable lurch from low to lockup.
This is a view into a fascinating world totally alien to me. Unlike cars, trucks tractors and earth moving equipment, we in Israel got very few US purpose-made buses and coaches, perhaps because of their cost but also – I think – due to the fact they were so advanced in comparison with what was considered a “proper” bus back then operators were terrified of them.
A year or so ago I saw a few new look buses still hard at work in Tijuana. I recall the big deal they were when they started to hit the streets of Baltimore in the early 1960’s. Was totally space age with those big windows, aluminum cladding and A/C. Made the old looks seem like something from another place and time.
By the way, how many miles would one of these piles up in its lifetime before permanent retirement?
We had 35ft fishbowl buses in my home town of Sheboygan WI beginning in the early Seventies. Rode these allot and also bumper hitched (hang on the bumper and slide on your boots) them a number of times when it was snowy, fun but I digress.
They much had better seating, roomier with easier ingress/egress and quicker then the ancient gas powered buses they replaced. The old gas powered buses however were significantly quieter and smoother than those window rattleing, diesel screaming and locking torque shoving Fishbowl buses though.
My, a huge number of comments. As Paul noted, Canadian transit operators wanted nothing to do with the RTS and production continued in the original and heavily modified Classic forms for decades. Here’s a real oddity…an experimental articulated bus that married the new Classic front end with the traditional FIshbowl body. There were 12 built, and were eventually operated by Mississauga Transit, a city just west of Toronto and have, I believe, since been scrapped. (Picture from transittoronto.on,ca)
And I missed Daniel M’s reply just above…well, another picture of this oddity.
Up here in Calgary Alberta they still use some 1978 buses for training the new drivers. A few years ago they where still in regular service.
I’m watching the movie Speed and these are the buses production used. CC effect in effect!
Though I never rode on one, I remember the fishbowls well. The bus operator in my hometown was Duke Power (how the electric company came to be running the diesel buses is still a mystery to me–maybe an artifact of trolley service?) and they had a fleet of New Looks, yellow with stainless lower bodies. So I grew up seeing these on the street, up until the late 80’s or early 90’s when a new operator came in and all the buses were updated at once.
The successor RTS was used by Raleigh, NC, where I moved to attend college in ’98. Within a couple years they phased out their RTS fleet, replacing them with the Orion V.
My current location, Richmond, VA, has a number of types of buses in service, but the most prevalent one would be the Gillig BTR, most of them hybrids (recognizable by the roof-mounted battery boxes).
These were a huge part of my growing up as well, since Pittsburgh’s Port Authority Transit was formed in the early 60s to take over Pittsburgh Railways and replace (almost) all of its 666 PCC Streamliners, plus a hodge podge of local bus fleets with New Looks.
Much as I loved these – particularly how close the driver could stop to the next bus in front – it was the few PCCs that remained I really loved. They didn’t all look this groovy, but they were cool. TrolleyStop Classic?
Yes, there should be a CC on trolley buses. I could pass along a few images of trolleys that travelled the urban streets where I grew up.
We had trolley buses here in Dallas when I was a kid. They were built by both Pullman-Standard and Marmon-Herrington in 1948, so by the time I was old enough to remember riding them they were less than 15 years old. I just remember them being smooth and quiet – and they would scoot on out! Sadly, Dallas retired and removed their trolley bus operation in 1966, two years after the City of Dallas took over the city transit system.
I used to work for a bus company. In 1980, you could still buy a BRAND-NEW Fishbowl for a mere $131,000. Those were the days! I bought a Chevrolet Citation that year for $5,400. Drove it to work at the bus company every night.
I just bought a 1970 New Look bus with a rebuilt engine at auction, but now I have to drive it 150 km to my home. Does anyone know the gas mileage on one of these busses? I would like to put just enough diesel in it to get me home without having too much fuel in the tank. It’s going to sit for a while as I refurbish the interior and the less money I have in the tank, the more I have for repairs.
I lived in Hogtown ( Toronto ) in the early seventies, great city, ultra low crime
at the time and lots of Fishbowls and PCC’s. Paradise ?
The GM “New Look” buses had a long and storied history – one of the best mass transit vehicles every built. There were many variations of paint schemes out there through the years, but none were as unique as the downtown circulator buses in Dallas, TX, that were known as the “Hop A Bus.” There were two routes, one that went in a circular pattern through town in an east-west configuration, and one that went in a circulator pattern in a north-south configuration. A flat fare of 10cents was charged, and the rider paid a far each time they boarded the bus. What really made these buses unique was that the transit agency, Dallas Transit System came up with the idea of painting some of the buses used on these routes all pink, complete with a bunny face painted on the front, and a large, white fuzzy cotton tail painted on the rear engine cover door. To complete the idea, the paint scheme included two large bunny ears on the top of the bus! These buses were known all over the country – and most certainly the world – as visitors to the city that rode them, or saw them in the Downtown area always talked about them! There were stories of people that would come to Dallas on vacation and would make a side trip to Downtown Dallas to ride one of the pink Bunny Buses! The paint schemes were certainly unique and fondly remembered by many.
I own a 1980 GMC New Look Transit Bus,Model T6H-4523N. Built in Canada. Do you have any ideas where I might be able to obtain service and repair manuals for it?
It has sat for awhile, I have it running now. But really could use diagrams that show me air assisted sytems, wiring, etc. So that maybe I can finish bringing it back to life.
How about a picture of a Dallas Transit System GMC 5303 that was delivered new in July 1966. Dallas called their new buses “Dandyliners.” I remember riding these buses as a kid and the one thing that stood out was the AC worked really well on them. Stepping into one of those buses in the hot, humid summers in Dallas was like stepping into an oasis! I went to work at Dallas Transit as a bus operator in 1976 and Dallas was still running the New Looks. The city began taking deliveries of the new GMC RTS-II buses in 1977. To the operators, the new RTS buses were like driving Cadillacs – power steering, an adjustable drivers seat that was like a comfortable recliner, tilt steering column, 8V71 Detroit Diesel engines with Allison three speed transmissions. The agency did not phase out their New Looks completely until around 1988 or so. Because the Dallas buses were so well maintained, it was not difficult to find new homes for them. A number of them went to El Paso, TX., San Diego, CA., and Honolulu, HI transit systems.
Here is a picture of the GMC New Look T8H5307A buses that were in the last group of New Looks that were purchased by Dallas in February 1975. These buses were retained by Dallas Area Rapid Transit, the successor to the municipally owned Dallas Transit System. DART was created in 1983 and assumed operation of the bus system from DTS in 1984. A number of these New Looks were repainted into the new DART color scheme of yellow and white.
What a wealth of information from a dearth of bus lovers. I enjoyed reading all of the history and the members’ comments. I remember those buses that went CLUNK somewhere around 35 MPH when they were run in New York City. Now I know why. Bus travel is a delight. Did anyone every ride on a Greyhound with “Golden Eagle” service? I did a few times in1966. It was a short-lived deluxe service. You had to see the hostess trying to serve drinks and food while the bus rocked and rolled at high speed!
The “Golden Eagle” service was provided by the Railways Bus System. They had the Silver Eagle which was standard intercity bus service, and the Golden Eagle service which was more akin to riding on a train – there was a Hostess aboard the bus, snacks were served, and the seating had tables where people could play cards or other games while on the road. It was very exclusive service.
I’ve been going back and forth between the pics of the 35′ and 40′ orange Iowa City Transit buses, and for the life of me can’t see any difference. Where is the extra five feet of length hiding?
Let me help you with that. I’ve put them together in the image below. keep in mind that the 40′ bus (bottom) is coming at the camera more head-on than the 35′ bus (top), so it doesn’t necessarily look longer, due to the camera angle. But there’s several tip-offs.
If you imagine turning the angle of the 40 footer a bit, like the 35 footer, the difference would be quite obvious. As it is, the side windows on the 40 footer are clearly longer, to my eye, and other distances are too.
One proof is in their front ends.The 40′ bus is 102″ wide, the 35′ is 96″ wide. Notice how the vent in the bright band between the curb side headlights and the center badge is more crowded on the 35 footer. Each side is 3″ longer, but it’s enough to make a clear difference.
Those little tinted upper windows: the 40′ has one more than the 35′.
Here’s the ultimate proof. I drove these exact buses. Numbers 1-12 were the original fleet of 35′ buses bought in 1972. I drove them all. The one shown here is #11.
The 40′ footer is one of two bought in 1974, numbers 13 and 14. This is clearly #13.
And keep in mind that that 5′ only represents 12% of the total length of the 40 footer, so it’s not all that obvious unless looking straight on their sides.
I wasn’t doubting they really were differently sized, just that it’s not obvious to people like me who’ve never driven a bus and for whom these were mostly gone by the time I was grown up. I’d forgotten that the long buses were also a half foot wider; I find the different proportions much more apparent on the front than on the sides, at least with the angles a bit different. Still i’m a bit surprised GM made this much effort to make the short and long versions both look properly proportioned, as opposed to just putting an extra 5 foot extension in the sides (or two 2-1/2 foot extensions if they wanted to keep the rear door centered). This is GM we’re talking about; at the time the first new look buses were being built, this same company had no qualms about stretching their upmarket full-sized sedans by inserting an awkward and obvious plug between the rear doors and rear wheels. I’d have thought bus operators would’ve actually preferred that approach, allowing them to keep a single size of side glass stocked to replace broken windows and such.
Was the extra 6″ of width used to squeeze in an extra seat in each row in a 3/2 arrangement, or was it 2 on each side but with wider seats, or same width seats with a wider center aisle, or a combination of these? I’m trying to recall how the New Look buses I rode on as a teenager were configured; think they had some areas with side-facing seats but mostly forward facing benches for two people on each side like a school bus. Some of the newer buses had individual seats rather than a bench. Looking online it seems different bus operators used different arrangements, as on aircraft.
Yes, the 35 and 40′ buses are proportionally largely similar, by using smaller windows. The 30′ isn’t, as it just uses three of the 35′ windows, and it look a bit odd as a result.
The 6″ extra width allowed more standing room. Keep in mind that back then, packed buses were common. Even in Iowa City, on winter mornings headed to the university hospital, my bus was packed absolutely to the gills, with the last riders standing on the entry steps. So the extra 6″ allowed for easier aisle movement and more room.
The seating was the same, with center-facing seats over the large wheel humps and the rest being regular benches, 2/2.
I only recently found out that the 35′ version was available in 102″ width, but only a small number were sold.
The 40′ came in either 96 or 102″ width, for transit use. The suburban version only came in 96″, as the 102″ buses were technically not legal on highways and such, outside of city limits. I’m not sure exactly how that was permitted, as this was long before trucks were allowed to have 102″ width.
I’m pretty sure it was NYC that first allowed 102″ buses way back, and then that spread to other big cities. I’d have to research that.
I was born in Toronto and lived and worked there for most of my life, so I am very familiar with these buses, and also the streetcars, trolleys and the subway. Another reason is that my father worked for the TTC and its predecessors for his whole career. He started with summer jobs while he was at university and when he graduated in 1936 he took a permanent job and stayed until his death in 1967.
I remember his taking me to the garage (for those familiar with Toronto, Hillcrest garage on Bathurst at Davenport) and giving me a tour when I was about 10. He was showing me the engine of one of the buses and remarking that the bus cost about the same as a Rolls Royce. At the time the TTC had an intercity division (Gray Coach) so they also purchased intercity buses and he said that they were about double the cost of a city bus.
The other thing that impressed the 10 year old me was the way they vacuumed them out. The cleaner got on the bus and left the front door open and we got to get on with him. Something like a jet-bridge at an airport came out on bellows and sealed around the door. It was part of a giant vacuum. The cleaner, who had a small broom, went to the back and opened the very back windows and they turned on the vacuum. There was a quite a roar as the air came in the back windows and went out the front door into the vacuum along with most of the litter. Some bits under the seats did not immediately respond, so the clear just brushed them out into the aisle and away they went.
When I worked for the Dallas bus system, we had the same type of vacuum system that you described in your posting. The main difference was that instead of a small broom, the cleaner used a long wand that blew compressed air out. He/She could just walk down the isle of the bus and blow all the trash out from under the seats and the suction from the vacuum would suck it out the front door. An interesting part of this system is that the trash was sucked into a large machine that ground it up to a fine pulp, was mixed with water, and then washed down the were system. Very ingenious system! It was used until the agency bought the new RTS coaches, and this system could not be used due to the difference in the front doors of the two coaches. Eventually, the system was modified for the RTS coaches and was used for many years after that. At least until the EPA decided that they couldn’t wash that stuff down the city sewer system.
Interesting. We didn’t have that in Iowa City, with just 14 buses.
So, I’m enjoying the commentary here and it made me think of something….
I have a ’70 New Look 40’er and my transmission is faulty. I have to turn the engine off to align the gears into reverse, turn the engine back on, and then I can reverse.
There is apparently one old timer transmission guy in town that may have some experience with this kind of Allison, but it’s not going to be cheap ($1000 just to show up, yes…thousand).
Is there any other option that you guys can think of that may mitigate that expense? Any input is appreciated.
Regards
Head to this forum. Register and leave a post with your question. I hear a fellow by the name of John is the most knowledgeable one there. Good luck.
busconversionmagazine.com/forum
Thanks!
Looks like a 1959 35 footer just popped up on Craigslist out of Gilroy. At $4950 I would guess that is a decent price with driveshaft needing replacement???
The engine
After looking over the sellers ad on Craigslist, this bus looks like a newer model than a 1959. I would say that this is more likely a 1968-69 model. The clearance lights and front turn signal lenses give it away. Also, the valve covers on the engine have the newer Detroit Diesel logo on them that the 1959 6V71 would not have. Also, if the tow truck driver towed that bus without pulling the rear axles, then the transmission is probably screwed up – not just the drive shaft. Anyone who is thinking about buying this bus should also ask to see the service records and find out the last time the engine was overhauled, and if so, how many miles the rebuild has on it. Just some of my observations.
I’m hoping thid thread isn’t dead… I have a GM TDH5301 New Look bus that I’m selling for a friend but i have no idea where to start… The bus is retired #343 from Edmonton Alberta, currently in British Columbia.
Did you sell it?
Hi there Mr. smokin’ Bus Driver. Lol! My how times have changed. I’m old enough to remember when Greyhound transitioned from the back half of the bus was the smoking section. Then it was down to the last three rows. Then no smoking at all. That sure didn’t stop some riders from lighting up a heater in the bathroom. If they knew what they were doing they opened the vent window. If they didn’t open the vent all the smoke came pouring out when they opened the door and the driver would get on the intercom in a stern voice reminding them about the rules.