If one were so inclined as to read the various CC’s I have written over the past few years, there is one common theme that might quickly become apparent: Nearly every one of them is about a car produced in the United States.
Sure, there was that tempting frauline named Mercedes plus the fluke Tatra found in Memphis. Other than these limited European examples, combined with some recent Australian fare, there has been nothing but American cars. My writing about a Camry isn’t any weird confluence of moon phases and circadian rhythms caused by being in a different time zone. Nor is it gloating about having bagged something on the turf of Messrs. Grey and Cavanaugh. In finding this Toyota, a long-ago quote was the first thing to come to mind:
“This stupid thing has ruined a lot of good cigarettes.”
The first example of this generation Camry I ever saw belonged to a neighbor where I grew up. She and her husband were in their early ’40s when they disposed of their pristine 1972 Pontiac Bonneville with its 455 cubic inch (7.4 liter) V8 in favor of a new, white Camry. One day soon thereafter I was at their house for some long forgotten reason.
Upon my inquiry, Mary Jean showed me her new Camry. She was having a distinct adjustment period, referring to the squirrels under the hood and the general lack of power. She also showed me the motorized seat belts.
If you think about it, going to this Camry from a cherry 1972 Bonneville was quite the adjustment. The biggest was the near perpetual startle Mary Jean had every time she hit the ignition switch. A heavy smoker, she said there was always the “what the hell” moment accompanied by turning her head toward the movement. The moving seatbelt would rip the cigarette from her mouth.
What a way to remember a car.
Last week, after leaving the Wal-Mart at the interchange of I-69 and I-465 in Indianapolis for the last leg of my trip to Auburn, my initial thought was to write a full-blown account of that cigarette annihilating Camry from many moons ago. As a Camry, like most Toyota products, seems to be a lightning rod for strong sentiments, giving a narrative of these experiences seemed like a fairly low risk treatment of a car in which I really have no interest.
However, upon further reflection, this Camry has somewhat burrowed itself in that part of my brain that controls analytical thought. The realization that I had not seen one of these in several years soon occurred; further thoughts and various conversations that weekend, especially with Jim Klein, made me start to think about how grand and regional our automotive passions are.
In my day job, I cover an area that is the size of Delaware and Vermont combined (or about 1.5 times the size of Wales). That’s how I am able to find the cars that I do. In the week since finding this Camry, I have covered a lot of territory, including two university towns, without seeing another Camry of this vintage. Asian cars over ten years of age simply don’t exist where I live. When you witness that, then read and hear how durable Asian cars tend to be, wouldn’t you greet what you are hearing with some degree of skepticism?
On the flip side, there are likely troves of these Camry’s in other areas of the United States and elsewhere. Seeing a Camry like this in Eugene is probably as easy as finding greasy fingerprints on a restaurant menu. I can see three B-bodies at the same time on I-70 in downtown St. Louis; finding three B-bodies so rapidly in Portland likely isn’t as easy. Like accents, automotive tastes are regional.
Another part of my realization is that I had actually noticed this Camry. Would that have happened prior to my involvement with CC? It’s debatable, but I certainly would not have taken pictures of it. Nor would have I been so proud of my find as to forget to buy the shaving cream that prompted my stop at Wal-Mart.
So, I will say it: This Camry isn’t so bad. In fact, it’s rather attractive in a sterile, non-hostile, and dishwater sort way. When this generation of Camry was being made, it was nowhere on my radar; perhaps that is due to so few of them having sold in the area I lived. Yet for what it is, a small, fuel-efficient car made to inspire confidence in the owner by supposedly being more reliable than the competition, it did succeed in its mission.
Just don’t think I’m above poking fun at them in the future – even those having color coordinated bandages for their cancer.
Related reading: Paul Niedermeyer Drives And Reviews A Pristine Low-Mile 1990 Camry V6
I donr see many of these either they had a fairly short sales run here NZ buyers were the beta testers of the new wide body Camry that landed in 89 so these are not as common as other Toyotas from the same era.
So overcome by the presence of a Camry you forgot to buy shaving cream. Definitely a case of CCitis. Take one broughamer-seltzer and call me in the morning.
So true. When the realization hit about twenty minutes later, it was a bit annoying.
I remember you telling me about this Camry, with the exception of the wheel well that looks to be in quite good condition and while these are still to be found regularly on the west coast, most are looking.a bit more beat than this one.
What I find remarkable and goes to the heart of the discussions we had is that after examining all of the pictures in this post, I am pretty sure that there is not a single other Toyota in any of the shots. I see a few Hondas but no Toyotas.
Good point on what is in the background.
Since we had that conversation I have been searching high and low for any Honda, but especially Toyota, older than about the 2000 model year. Since writing this piece a week ago, I have seen a total of three: one yard ornament, one smoking like a refinery, and one beat within a half-inch of its life. Conversely, I have seen countless GM A-bodies, Chevrolet Malibu’s, and 80s era Panthers.
Have they all been bought up and shipped to Cambodia as John Henderson (below) suspects? Was their popularity more limited to the left and right coasts? Or, were the environmental conditions of the Midwest their Achilles Heel?
I was impressed with the condition of this one. While I didn’t take any interior shots, it pretty much screamed elderly lady.
It is interesting how skewed the distribution of certain types of older cars is in different parts of the country. I wouldn’t say these are all over the place in Massachusetts, but I see them often enough. A couple weeks ago I was thinking about how few ’90-’93 Honda Accords are left, but once I had them on my mind, I’ve been seeing a few each week.
Even different parts of the relatively small state of Massachusetts yields different CCs. I used to live in Milton, a relatively upper-middle class suburban town, that borders Boston. Older European and Asian cars are far more common there than where I live in Hanson now. Hanson is a lot more rural, simpler, and very conservative (far to much for me). Out here in the sticks, it’s all American, with Panthers, pickups, and Grand Ams galore.
I agree
I commute from Shrewsbury to southern NH and I can’t remember the last time I’ve seen this generation Camry.
I do still see some very clapped out Camry’s of the next generation. There is actually a 94 in the parking lot as I type this with a blown engine (co-worker’s son never checked the oil, co-worker thought they could make it to work and put free oil in it from the machine shop…didn’t quite make it).
While I agree that geographic distribution is a factor, there actually are still an amazing number of 90-93 Accords running around ( I have one, so I notice them…all with rust above the rear wheels) considering these are over 20 years old. I live in northern Virginia, land of the leased Mercedes, BMW and Prius (I also see a few Teslas each week), so older vehicles are generally rare, but I still see an impressive number of the aforementioned Accords, and Corollas of the same era.
Back to topic, my folks still have a copper colored 89 Camry wagon that is absolutely immaculate. It has been an extremely reliable, low maintenance car with great gas mileage. They get purchase offers constantly. I’ve been at them to replace it, as it probably is a death trap in any sort of collision.
Those wagons are actually quite handsome, with a greenhouse like a slightly polished Peugeot 604.
Not sure where you live, but I’m in Indianapolis and 1990-2000 Japanese cars are as thick on the ground here as anywhere else. Droves of the 90-93 Accords as well as the 94-97 and 98-02 cars. Civics are mostly of the 96-00 generation but plenty of the 92-95s as well. Toyotas are everywhere, from the “baby-Lexus” 93-97 Corollas, to the decontented 98-02 Corollas, Camrys of all generations including the 88-91 cars like the one featured. Those are less common than the equivalent age accords by a mile however. Right here at work, in the parking lot of my building there are no fewer than 4 of the 90-93 Accords. One belongs to my friend, it’s a seafoam green LX coupe, a rust free transplant from sunny California. 230k miles and not showing any signs of slowing down.
My statement about not seeing them is based not only upon where I currently live (Jefferson City, MO) but also upon the area I cover combined with where I have lived previously (Hannibal, St Joseph, and Cape Girardeau where are in three of the four corners of MO). Today alone I have seen two A-body Pontiac’s and exactly zero of this generation and the next generation of Camry – and I’m currently 100 miles south of where I live.
Definitely must be a regional thing. Here in central Virginia, while seeing a Camry of this vintage is not a daily event, weekly sounds about right. Older Accords are even more common – someone who lives on my block has a ’92-’93 DX, and there are a good number more of the ’90-’93 cars and a few of the ’86-’89 generation in my neighborhood. the ’94-’97 cars are still positively everywhere (two in my work parking lot, both in very nice condition). And the generation of Camry after this one (’92 to ’96? Something like that…) are still common, though the vast majority look to have seen better days.
Funny, Jim, that Mr. Shafer never mentioned this Camry to me during the Auburn trip. . . . .
He did look nervous as he was relying the story to me and looked over his shoulder a lot, now that you mention it…
One can’t divulge all they know.
Hopefully at this age, the stupefying drugs have finally evaporated from the interior
Its the only thing that can explain the appalling reflexes & reaction time of the
steering wheel attendants who bought these whitegoods on wheels.
I may be imagining this, but I’m sure I read somewhere that all the good ones were being bought up by entrepreneurs and exported to Cambodia, where the Camry is the car of choice for cabbies and others.
Certainly we had something a bit similar happen in England, not with Camrys (which have never been a common sight here) but with Ladas (descent from the sublime to the ridiculous). Because they were so cheap new, used ones could be had for peanuts, and after imports stopped (about 1997 I think) they were practically given away with every four gallons of unleaded.
So Russian car dealers came over and bought them up in their thousands, and they were more or less all repatriated. Apparently UK-spec Ladas were sought after, right hand drive notwithstanding, because when new they were more or less rebuilt on arrival by the UK importers and consequently the build quality was far better than home-market ones.
I recall seeing my wife’s old one (DPV 83T) on the back of a transporter with a couple of others in 1998 or 1999 so presumably it is still trundling around Nizhny Novgorod or some such.
You found this across the street from the Hello Kitty Crown Vic I found earlier this year.
And you were on JPC’s turf. He and I have a tenuous truce on Central Indiana Curbside Classics — west of US 31 is my territory, and east of US 31 is his. It divides the area neatly into two. I goaded him on the Crown Vic and he didn’t even flinch. I wonder how much more I can get away with.
Thank you for answering my curiosity on whose territory I was trespassing. There is some degree of satisfaction about swooping into someone’s territory and bagging game.
It is a sad day when a man’s own WalMart gets poached for CCs.
I will grudgingly shrug off Mr. Shafer’s poaching as a one-time thing. But as for Jim Grey, don’t think that I am unaware of your systematic incursions into my territory. But I have my ways of getting even. You thought it was high water that took out the starter in your Matrix? Uh huh . . . .
Dude, careful. The Westside Mafia does not take kindly to acts of sabotage.
The original Camry was the first ‘affordable compact’ car offering a 4-speed auto with a 4-cyl.
The featured one was the first compact/mid sedan offerring a 4 valve per cyl.
I generally foundToyota bland, with the occasional flash of brilliance (5 speed trannies in the 70s, the 70s Celica, the original Supra, the original MR2) , but remember how both these ‘firsts’ impressed me in the 80s, as giving the average motorist something special, and putting more nails in the coffin of the American competition.
Assuming we discount the Mk1 Escorts with Cosworth BDA engines, I think the first compact sedan with four valves per cylinder was probably the Triumph Dolomite Sprint, more than 10 years before Toyota. Toyota’s first compact sedans with four valves per cylinder were the RWD Carina and Corona in 1983.
The previous Corona and Carina also had four-speed automatics with certain engines at least back to 1979–1980 — I don’t know offhand when they first got it, but it was around that time. (They only had three-speeds at launch, so it was midway through the model run.)
About 18 to 20 years ago a co-worker almost sold me her white 89 Camry. The price versus the mileage didn’t strike me as all that much of a bargain so I eventually wound up buying a different co-worker’s 280Z.
These (very) occasionally show up on Craigslist. Me? I’d rather own the generation Camry before this one…in the hatchback bodystyle. Someone a few blocks from where I lived, when I lived in Memphis, had one of those hatchbacks in a shade of blue similar to this car. Never saw it move, though.
The big plus to the Camry pictured here is that this generation Camry was available with a V6 and as a wagon.
Wow, good find! I haven’t seen one of these in a very long time. I think the majority of them in this area turned into iron oxide a long time ago.
I had a friend in high school that had one of these. It was a step up from the 88 Excel that it replaced. Other than that it was pretty forgettable and he really didn’t like it much. It had about 170K miles on it at the time, so it was pretty much at the end of the road.
Senior year his Dad leased him a brand new Dodge Avenger ES V6 (first year they made them). That was a sexy little coupe, but a complete pos. 3 transmissions, a ball joint failed on him while on the road (creating alot of body damage) and some cyl head problems, all before 20K miles kind of put a sour taste in his mouth for that car too.
I have nothing against Camrys or their owners. I buy the dullest and cheapest-but-still-likely-to-be-reliable phones, computers, etc, and I can’t blame anyone for treating a car as just another money pit.
That said, these Camrys are annoying. We had one as a hand-me-down for a while. Rock hard seats, weird driving position, underpowered by a buzzbox engine. Plus the people of Boston found them really easy to steal. I was told that you could file all the teeth off ANY Toyota key from this era and start this car. No, didn’t test it, you didn’t hear it from me.
I can 2nd that about the ignitions, a Toyota key or anything that was about the width and size of a Toyota key, my mother actually had a cheapie DX Camry for a couple of years and one time I came out to find the drivers door just slightly open and the “key in ignition……beep beep beep” going off, with no key in the ignition. There was a little sliver of metal stuck in the ignition, like the tip of a scissor, I was able to pull it out with a needlenose.
I imagine that they broke the end of in a hurry to get the hell out of the car when they heard the house door slam.
Friend of mine had a silver ’91 Camry DX. One day he had gone to the grocery store, came out with his purchases, unlocked the door of the car and sat down. Then realized he was not in his car; his was a couple of spaces farther down the row, obscured by a large pickup truck. Not exactly confidence-inspiring, but it corroborates these stories!
a friend of mine used a key from a ’99 Silverado and drove away my ’93 New Yorker Fifth Avenue. I think it cant be worse
Back in the day we had a 61 Falcon and a 63 Fairlane with identical ignition keys. Ford was then particularly noted for limited key/lock combinations. Of course in those days in small town IN many folks left the keys in the ignition all the time and nothing bad happened.
” This Camry isn’t so bad. In fact, it’s rather attractive in a sterile, non-hostile, and dishwater sort way. ”
_THIS_ and it bit me in a very bad way .
One of my Foster boys was graduating High School and going off to College so SWMBO asked me to find him a good cheap , _reliable_ (this is where I got bit) car .
I found a Camry just like this for $1,000 , Woman owned and never been smoked in , a cherry apart from the clear coat on that some color blue paint .
I bought it and replaced all four shocks with Bilsetins , new tires & battery then sent it out for painting , this first hot day I drove it , it blew a head gasket , my buddy who works for Toyota told me when I asked what to do next , told me all these early V-6Toyotas had *very* short engine life so I opted for a low mileage used engine that was sparkling clean on the inside and dropped $3,700.00 into it before installing byreplacing every seal on it , the timing belt , every under hood hose , motor mounts , front suspension bushings while it was all apart , on and on , using all Toyota Dealer parts ~ it made about one year then blew the head gasket again , I was done with the P.O.C. .
I’m sure it created a happy day at the local junk yard Anton sent it too , 5 new top quality 15″ tires , I’ll prolly never buy another Toyletta product unless it’s a 4 cylinder .
I Shoulda done my homework _first_ .
FWIW , although blad to the extreme it was very nice and everything worked great , ice cold AC , the original stero belted out the tunes just fine , etc.
A typical ‘ Japanese Appliance ‘ in it’s time , I just bought the wrong engine version I guess .
-Nate
Although the Camry isn’t the most exciting car, this post did excite me, as it’s one of the few CCs I’ve actually had to fortune of driving. When I was in high school, one of my friends and cross country teammates drove a 1990 burgundy Camry she got from her grandmother. When we weren’t up at the woods drinking, a group of us would often find ourselves hanging out in our high school parking lot many a late Friday nights.
Sometimes we would just drive fast around the 1/2 mile loop of the dark parking lot. One of these times I ended up driving her Camry. It was the 4-cylinder, but it didn’t feel totally anemic. I felt some sort of nostalgia driving it, as my mom had owned two of these Camrys: an ’87 and a ’91 I believe.
It is interesting that you don’t see very many older Camrys where you live. Here, in southwestern Indiana, there are still quite a few of the XV10 (1991-96) Camrys on the road and one of the older ones will occasionally show itself. The featured Camry is known as the V20 in Toyota speak, and is the last of the “narrow” Camrys imported into the US. I remember riding in a friend’s Camry of this vintage and it seemed to be competent, if not exciting. Most of the XV10’s show signs of pretty hard use and many of them are fairly rusty; of course, even the youngest of these is now nearly 20 years old so wear would be expected.
The only Camry I like is this generation (picture below) from the late nineties. With a 3.0 liter V6 of course. It reminds me (a bit) of a contemporary Cadillac Seville.
The successor of this one was the last Camry model in Europe, it was withdrawn from the Euro-market in 2004.
Those ones with the V6 are notorious for sludged up engines. Cost Toyota a lot of $$$.
I have not seen one in awhile either. I got one of these as a rental in about 1991, after my Colt was hit and totalled. Spending a week with one when our other car was an 88 Accord was a revelation to me. The Camry really made a Honda fan out of me.
The base level Camry reminded me of what GM might have built had they tried to build a Japanese import. Plain, heavy steering and just dull. It was a slower, more solid and better assembled Cavalier.
It’s interesting that as the styling of these has aged, they have become “slightly” more interesting, big glassy green house, the chrome gingerbread around the windows and tail lights, its almost nostalgic, this has to be near the end of the run for this bodystyle, it has the “new” Toyota logo that came out around 1990-1991 or so.
Agreed. What was bland at the time now seems clean and well-proportioned, if still a little dull. And the glassy greenhouse does inspire nostalgia…
Yea these are relatively common in Portland, OR, but the 1992+ Camries are much more common and I see more 1986-1989 Accords than this generation of Camry. Good luck finding a Camry wagon though, I hardly ever see one of those and the only hatchback I have seen in my 14 months of Portland living was in a junkyard. Do not worry though, it was intact and had been reserved for someone.
GM B-Bodies are not terribly common you are right, but I tend to see at least one every other day or so.
Teddy,
It doesn’t help you but a used car dealership in Gainesville, Florida has a Camry wagon of the pictured generation that is V6 powered. That car is an UNattractive maroon color.
Find it by googling Popular Imports.
They also have a couple of Accord wagons.
Although I’m not. impressed with the Wal-Mart I remember the Toyota Camry, and I loved it. My parents owned one when I was a boy.
This was my father’s first Camry and first Toyota. He loved it and drove it for almost 250,000 miles. I drove it on several occasions and found it drove nicely and was very comfortable. It was nothing but Camry’s for him after this one.
My Uncle in Rhode Island had one of these for many many years. (I think his grandson may even still have it.) My uncle had been a died-in-the-wool VW fan from the time he spent in Germany in the Army during the Korean War. He had a round window bug, and bought a new 74 Westfalia for factory delivery for a long family vacation with my aunt and cousins. When his final VW (an air-cooled Vanagon) wore out he got the Camry. I don’t know if he got tired of having it worked on perpetually, or if he VW had priced themselves out of his range, but it sure was a surprise to the whole family.
These were so dreadfully underpowered. I remember having to argue with someone here who thought otherwise. A terribly mediocre car just like the new Camry.
Of course there was that killer ’93 where Toyota pulled out all the stops making it wider and using a new platform good enough for Lexus. I feel the reason you don’t hear more Toyota bashing from competitors is that too much of that could result in T trying again and that would wipe everyone out like they did in the mid-80s.
I imagine a kind of detente where competitors don’t complain and Toyota grows in double digits instead of triple, but makes about the same money as if it was bigger.
These were so dreadfully underpowered. I remember having to argue with someone here who thought otherwise.
That was most likely me. 🙂
But you obviously won the argument! The 1988 115 hp 16 valve four cylinder Camry didn’t have a prayer of keeping up with the 98 hp Iron Duke powered Celebrity/other A-Body 1988 cars. Or Tempo’s brilliant 2.3 four, or… And that DOHC Camry engine sounded so agricultural compared to that refined Iron Duke as it struggled to keep up with whatever GM car it powered.
And that equally crude and noisy 156 hp quad cam V6 in the 1988 Camry V6 was inevitably left in the dust by that famously smooth and refined pushrod 120 hp 2.8 V6 powered Celebrity. As well as just about any 1988 American car in its class. Yes, these Camrys were truly dreadfully underpowered. And sounded horrible in the process. No wonder the Camry couldn’t make any headway in the US market against the stellar competition from GM at the time. It just wasn’t nearly good enough, never mind fast, or reliable, or long-lived.
Just how old were you in 1988? I’m curious, because your memory of that time seems a bit fuzzy.
I feel the reason you don’t hear more Toyota bashing from competitors is that too much of that could result in T trying again and that would wipe everyone out like they did in the mid-80s.
I imagine a kind of detente where competitors don’t complain and Toyota grows in double digits instead of triple, but makes about the same money as if it was bigger.
Your imaginings of how the car business works are truly…imaginative.
“No wonder the Camry couldn’t make any headway in the US market against the stellar competition from GM at the time.”
Love it!
“I imagine a kind of detente where competitors don’t complain (publicly about Toyota’s substandard product) and Toyota grows in double digits instead of triple, but makes about the same money as if it was bigger.”
I think that’s pretty much what you said in the Camry SE review… “As Toyota has repeatedly said, it’s not about who is Number One in global sales, but who makes the most money. And Toyota does that by a huge margin, with profits about triple or more of those of GM, and double of VW.”
It’s not much of a stretch to imagine that if competitors attacked Toyota with words or price cuts that succeeded in taking share the reaction would be swift and crushing. If said competitors attacked in product that was sufficiently good to steal signifcant share the response would not be immediate but even more devastating.
I’m not saying anyone held back on the Accord, Altima, Fusion, Sonata, Optima or 626 intentionally, I think those are as good as they could do and all much better than the Camry. But if someone does another ’86 Taurus you can bet there will be another ’93 Camry.
It’s not much of a stretch to imagine that if competitors attacked Toyota with words or price cuts that succeeded in taking share the reaction would be swift and crushing. If said competitors attacked in product that was sufficiently good to steal signifcant share the response would not be immediate but even more devastating.
It is for me. What do you think Hyundai/Kia has done in the past ten years or so with the Sonata/Optima? Exactly that. And frankly, so did GM with the previous Malibu. And Ford with the Fusion. They’re ALL doing everything they can to take away share from the Camry, and they have succeeded, to various degrees.
The Camry’s best year was 1999, and it’s been struggling to hang on to #1 in recent years. The Accord outsold it in recent months. Where was the Altima 15 years ago? Chevrolet? Ford? Chrysler?
Anyway, I really don’t know what you mean by attacking Toyota “with words”. Better bring more than words to the most competitive segment in the most competitive market in the world. That’s like bringing plastic fork to a knife fight, as was used here yesterday.
Do you think Toyota is impervious? Sure, they can afford to put money on the hood to keep Camry production on an efficient scale, but that does cost too.
But if someone does another ’86 Taurus you can bet there will be another ’93 Camry.
History really doesn’t repeat itself. 1986 was a long time ago. Look at what everyone was building at the time. There will never be “another ’86 Taurus” because there will never be another 1986. The automarket has matured in huge leaps since then, and everyone has to have a competitive product. Ask Mitsubishi about what happens if you don’t.
The reasons why Toyota built the ’93 Camry the way they did was for a number of reasons. Probably the biggest was to maximize revenue per car because Toyota was production constrained then. The Camry back then was significantly more expensive (adjusted) than it is today.
What would a ’93 Camry for 2015 look like? A Lexus 350SE? They already sell those, so there’s no need, is there. And trying to sell an uber-Camry for 30-40% than the rest of the competition would be an utter disaster.
Just like it’s not 1986 anymore, so it’s not 1993 anymore. The unique market circumstances of those years are long gone and quite irrelevant.
The only thing that counts is 2014 and the years ahead. Toyota is playing the game in the way they chose to. It may continue to work well in terms of the Camry, or it may not, if the Accord and others continue to nibble its share away.
Don’t assume that Toyota can buy whatever share of the market it wants. The Civic has outsold the Corolla for decades, as has the CRV. Where is the uber-Corolla or uber Rav4?
Toyota isn’t auto-god-almighty. They play the game very well, and they do well in overall profits, thanks to their superb cost controls, but they can’t win every play.
“Anyway, I really don’t know what you mean by attacking Toyota ‘with words'”.
How about this from Honda, Nissan, Ford, Hyundai/Kia or Mazda, on television and pop-up ads…
“That Camry you just bought is the same underneath as the 2001 model, take a look at these pics. Now take a look at it on this handling course”.
My point is that would be devastating to Toyota but no one is stupid enough to try it. In other words there is detente.
Paul, can’t you defend the Camry without ripping on the A-body or other American cars of that era?
Some of us really enjoy those kinds of cars (and even own them right now) and the sarcastic snark you like to throw at them isn’t any more productive or inviting than the anti-Toyota comments that people like calibrick or Philhawk write.
Maybe I need to grow a thicker skin (and I know you don’t really want your website to be a lovefest) but I have cut way back on visiting CC because of all the negative comments and arguments between people about stuff 15+ years out of production.
ajla. I learned to love the A-Body, as the venerable Cockroach of the Road that it became in its later years. And some of them had decent qualities from pretty early on. But calibrick invited a comparison in terms of the engines in the Camry’s competition, and I had to respond, because let’s face it, the Iron Duke and early 2.8 V6 were miles apart from what Toyota was putting in the comparable Camry.
That’s a commonly accepted fact, not snark. Who would deny that? And if that’s so hard to swallow, you do need to grow some thicker skin 🙂
Anyway, how does one compare/defend/denigrate any car other than in comparison to the competition? Especially commodity cars in the mainstream classes, where the competition is brutal. We can love the A-Bodies, but they didn’t exactly stop the Camry from becoming the #1 best seller, eh?
Comparing engines the ’88 Carmy offered to the Iron Duke or 2.8L and finding Toyota’s offerings superior isn’t my objection. I actually agree with that overall point. It was the heavy dose of sarcasm that rubbed me the wrong way.
You really don’t think “And that equally crude and noisy 156 hp quad cam V6 in the 1988 Camry V6 was inevitably left in the dust by that famously smooth and refined pushrod 120 hp 2.8 V6 powered Celebrity.” was a sarcastic or unneeded way to put things?
But, I know that you don’t need people telling you how to write on your own website. This won’t keep me up at night or anything. I just wanted to share my thoughts on things. Thanks for the chance.
I do remember it being quite a dog, it did have the cool econ/perf button that has recently come back into fashion.
I knew I could count on you to confirm the absolute truth as spoken by calibrick, especially when it’s so obvious and unassailable. I don’t know what I’d do without you two to keep CC on the straight and narrow when it comes to remembering the past factually and objectively.
nice to see you’re just as pleasant as usual. I’m kind of surprised you didn’t just delete my post because you didn’t like it.
That’s because I do like it! I’m perfectly happy to see you repeatedly make a fool of yourself, as long as you don’t insult others.
Ahh, I see. You never insult anyone on here, like say, the two posts above?
Not sure how I made a fool out of myself. You sure are an interesting dude.
I even mind my own business and you attack. Anyway, enjoy your weekend.
Paul — so it was you! IIRC you tossed in the towel when I brought up a quote from CR saying the same thing I, Phil and many others did today.
The early DOHC 4-cylinders were without variable valve control to fatten up the torque curve and were dangerously slow going through an intersection, worse than their SOHC forbearers, and probably worse than an Iron Duke. Toyota wasn’t the only one but it was the worst.
Speaking of the Duke, most GM sedans the size of the Camry went out the door with a 2.8 or 3.1 V6, since it was pushrod, cheap and not much more expensive to buy than the 4. Nearly all of those Camrys came with a 4-cylinder and 4-A/T.
I knew it was going to be a bad day for Mr. Niedermeyer when I saw the trashing of the Camry this morning and the glowing praise for new diesels. That’s why he lashed out Phil, it had nothing to do with our comments which were tamer than most. I’m happy to be the bad guy if it will avoid a ban on Camry hate speech for the rest.
Just as I was thinking Paul wasn’t as butt hurt as I thought up popped the Camry SE review because, of course, it’s suddenly Camry day today 🙂 Sure Paul!
I knew it was going to be a bad day for Mr. Niedermeyer when I saw the trashing of the Camry this morning and the glowing praise for new diesels.
Just as I was thinking Paul wasn’t as butt hurt as I thought up popped the Camry SE review because, of course, it’s suddenly Camry day today 🙂 Sure Paul!
Calibrick, Has it ever occurred to you that I control all the content that is published on these pages? If anything published here hurt my butt, I just wouldn’t have it published, or edit it. It’s that simple. Get it?
Controversy is good; more page views=more ad revenue. Keep it coming guys!! Including the high school-level comments like yours. Do you really think I take anything personally here, or have actual skin (or butt) in any of these arguments? It’s all a game. Except now I have better things to do than play anymore with you tonight, so don’t expect any more responses.
BTW, I had the Camry SE post planned ever since I knew Jason and I had both rented one. Dueling Camrys; all in good sport, except for some folks who take it too seriously.
I would buy that you never get hurt and only orchestrate to build lively discussion except for that ban on Prius “hate speech”. That was priceless and yes you were being defensive and not the provocateur. I got ya there.
And no I don’t take any of this seriously. I sure as heck don’t hate Toyota.
I DO appreciate the free exchange of ideas here at CC. All in all you are a great sport and a very professional host. Your warm-bloodedness makes you more of a VW host than a Toyota host, to put it in car terms. I like that.
I’ll actually do a +1 to what calibrick said in this instance.
It has been fun to push your buttons in the past though…
Cal
For the record, I actually wasn’t even bashing the Camry, and wasn’t comparing it to GM cars. God knows the 2.5 a-body’s weren’t performance cars. The 2.8’s and 3.1’s had some nice punch to them from the torque advantage. I just remember my friends car being pretty slow compared to what the rest of us were driving or had access to drive through parents etc.
If I had refreshed the page and had seen that Paul commented I wouldn’t have said a word. None of my comments usually get through without some snarky attack.
I know. The Camry hate from others and the diesel lovefest spoiled his mood it wasn’t you or me. He can get snarky when he’s cranky.
What makes you think I don’t like diesels?? I like them quite a lot; I just don’t trust the recent ones yet over the long haul. We’ll know better in a few more years There’s a difference there. But they’re great to drive (in someone else’s car).
i thought you were going to bed…
Not tonight dear, I have a headache 🙂
LOL I’m moving the win over to your column for that one!
Now THAT exchange was priceless!
calibrick – Actually that was me, and more specifically it was about this Camry as compared to the Accord from the same era. I don’t agree that the Camry 4cyl/auto is “dangerously slow” period, but I thought the argument was especially silly considering that you found the Accord 4cyl/auto to be acceptable – “in another universe” in fact. I’m a huge fan of that generation Accord, and (as I mentioned back then) it’s probably at least somewhat faster in that configuration… but the specs are far too similar for there to be any kind of massive difference:
’89 Camry 2.0/auto: 115HP@5,200 / 122lb-ft@2,600 / 9.55:1 1st gear*FDR
’89 Accord 2.0/auto: 120HP@5,800 / 122lb-ft@4,000 / 10.29:1 1st gear*FDR
Both weigh roughly 2,700-2,800lbs. depending on trim level/options.
https://www.curbsideclassic.com/curbside-classics-asian/curbside-classic-review-1990-toyota-camry-le-v6-dripping-with-fat/
Sean nice analysis and all but my point is about the dangerously slow acceleration pulling across an intersection, not peak HP or 0-60 times. Going from 0-20 is where the Camry sucked. I bet it’s an 11 sec. car 0-60, where the test allows the engine to run at high speed and take advantage of the high flow head and intake.
At low engine speed these early 16-valves had very poor air flow. Interestingly this is the exact opposite approach from GM’s on the 1986+ Olds 307 where the heads/intake were designed for high low-speed swirl at the expense of high-speed flow. My Caddy can leap through an intersection.
Nowadays with variable induction you can have good air flow at any engine speed.
So how about the Accord? Even the carbed DX A/T would chirp the tires when you had to gun it from a stop. That isn’t just about the torque curve of the engine and gearing, it’s also about how loose the torque converter is and how aggressive the throttle opening. The Camry needed a big shove of the gas, to quote CR, and had what seemed to be a very loose converter.
My guess is that Honda had more experience making small high-revving engines work well with an A/T in 1987.
The torque peak is at 2,600rpm which is around 18MPH in first gear, I looked up the stall speed and it’s 2,075rpm. The only Toyota I’ve ever owned was a Celica with the same 3S-FE engine and despite being a twin-cam (only one of which is driven off the belt) it was in all respects very similar to the SOHC Honda engine, which I also owned 2 examples of. If we had dyno charts for both stock engines, I bet they would be nearly identical.
I do think Honda made some of the best automatics back then, at least out of the offerings for smaller engines. They seemed to suck less power than all their competitors. But that can only account for so much difference, too…
So is it possible that the Accord just had a shorter length of pedal travel than the Camry? I think that’s the most logical explanation – and something you seem to be very particular about. I’m not sure why you think this is something that matters, though. It doesn’t actually make the car any slower or less powerful, it only means you have to move your foot slightly more…
Wishful thinking I know but if that was the extent of the rust and this were available cheap and close by I’d be all over it. More so if it had a long roof. Unless it had a V6 then forget it. Google oil sludge. I just did it now for the first time in years and Toyota appears in the title of three of the top 10 results.
I never understood these Camrys. It’s a premium priced Corolla with an inch or so more height at the belt line and a few inches longer in the trunk. I had the little brother, 89 Corolla, to this in the same colour for several years after my mother was through with it and that was fairly recent.
This model is really a rebodied Corona same engine and trans but with a V6 option the rust issue was solved by Toyota here they galvanized the Coronas and Corollas assembled locally probably why so many remain on the road, those 4AGE s might not have much power but they go literally forever the V6s have overheating issues usually due to cooling system neglect, p[eople seem to think Toyotas run forever with no maintenance they dont, sludge is a US neglect issue and unheard of elsewhere.
I think they stretched Corolla skin over it. They may be different cars but just too similar appearance-wise to justify the extra cost.
Oh I know about neglect. I have three younger sisters. Two of them can kill a Toyota, or any car for that matter, in less than 150K km. Seized engines, rods knocking or just so many things wrong that its cheaper to replace than to fix even though you still owe money on it.
Last week the youngest one and I were discussing cars and I was a little embarrassed that I couldn’t remember how many cars I had in the last 20 years. Some are toys that I still have, others were parted out for said toys, a couple met unfortunate ends and a few were stop-gap beaters till the financial situation improved. She’s on her second one. Her first one is still in regular daily use and has quite the story behind it. It belonged to sister two for a couple of years and she couldn’t sit by and watch it get killed so she took it back and sold it on to someone who will care for it properly.
The V20 was not based on the T180 Carina/Corona/Celica platform, although there are a bunch of mechanical similarities and some shared engines. The Camry didn’t use the A-series engine; all the V20’s petrol engines of this vintage were the S-type. U.S. cars had the 3S (1,998cc) four, although some Japanese and export cars had the 1S (1,832cc).
The E90 Corolla/Sprinter, which was introduced about nine months after the V20, does look similar — both look a lot like the Mark II/Cresta/Chaser/Cressida, really — but was a significantly smaller car with smaller engines. In JDM form, the E90 sedan was 325mm (more than a foot) shorter on a 140mm (5.5-inch) shorter wheelbase and about 35mm (an inch and a half or so) narrower, and didn’t have engines bigger than 1.6 liters. (U.S. cars had longer bumpers, but the proportionate differences are about the same.)
Yes, Toyota had corporate engines and once they developed a suspension layout or what have you would apply it to as many cars as feasible to spread out the development costs. And some of their cars were indeed mechanically identical — there was no functional difference between a Camry and a Vista except trim and minor sheet metal changes — but others were not.
Camrys of this era were oddly popular among my friends in college (1998 to 2002 for me). A roommate had a ’91 DX, another friend had an ’88 and then a ’90 (with unusual but attractive two-tone paint), and a third friend had one of the very uncommon All-Trac models, I think ’87 or ’88.
Both the ’91 and the ’90 met their end in accidents (the ’90 was actually *run over* by a lifted 4×4 pickup while parked). The ’88 was a high-mileage dog, hence its being replaced by the ’90. Not sure whatever became of that All-Trac but it was the interesting one…nothing but a small badge and a little more ground clearance to betray the rare option.
That was a weird era of all wheel drive cars. Everyone seemed to have their toe in the it but only Subaru really stuck with it.
Looking back, how many would expect to see a Camry, Tempo, Pontiac 6000, Mazda 323 et al with all or 4 wheel drive. Pretty exotic stuff for the times, but now just another option box to check on lots of cars.
I think basically automakers figured out that they could get most of the real-world traction advantages with traction control, which was a lot cheaper to engineer. For a while, it looked like damn near everything was going to offer a 4WD version (a startling number of European cars did in the late ’80s/early ’90s), but then people started either buying actual SUVs or deciding that 4WD wasn’t necessarily worth the weight, cost, and complexity.
I always liked this generation of Camry – much more handsome that the previous generation of stubby little cars.
These cars were hugely popular in SoCal and you still see a fair number of them around with huge mileage on the odometers. They, along with same generation Accords and Nissan/Toyota trucks continue to be the backbone of the automotive fleets of our lowest level service workers, domestic workers, gardeners, etc. I have nothing but admiration for their ability to keep them on the road and for their builders for creating cars that make that possible.
Philhawk:
With the exception of the Mazda, I believe all the cars you mentioned also had a diesel engine as an option at some point. Ironically, the Tempo used a Mazda diesel engine.
Subaru recently (within the past 5 years?)began offering a diesel in other markets. Toyota offered a diesel in the 1st generation Camry in 84 through 86 and even the Corolla had a diesel option.
Yeah Toyota offered the 1C,2C and 2CT engines in JDM Camrys and Caldinas Coronas and Corollas I had a 90 Corona van with 2C and auto quite slow but it always went and quite economical on fuel not much chop as a drivers car but it was only a delivery van in a wagon body.
ahh, the diesel options, another weird blip in the history of cars. Things that were once seen as odd or exotic are practically standard on most cars today.
There are plenty of this generation of Camry on the streets here in the SF Bay Area, some of which are in great shape. I think these are more numerous now than any of it’s contemporaries. I always liked this somewhat conservative body style, especially now with it’s generous glass area.
Hmmmmm… Jason you bring up a good point. I cannot remember the last time I saw one of the 87-91 era Camrys on the road. I see loads of the 92-96 version but oddly enough I cannot tell you the last time I saw a 97-01 Camry on the road ether. I have always thought the 97-01 seemed to have a lack of quality that the previous generations(with the sludging engines)
Remember that Simpsons episode where Homer goes “…and I’m not easily impressed. WOW! A Blue Car!”? This is the exact car I imagined he saw 😀
I knew a lot of people who had one of these Camrys, all of them seemed to be either dark red with oxidization or light blue with oxidation, and usually they were trashed inside, which is not the cars fault obviously (these were/are THE High School/College mandmedown cars) but they certainly didn’t seem like a diamond in the rough compared to the junk W and A bodies I also had the misfortune of driving/being driven in back in the day.
This generation I find very little charm in if I’m honest, it looks slapped together like a typical JDM import feebly coping with American standards – The black rub strips, the disjointed bumper cut lines and cheap tacked on rear side markers are all tell tale signs. Then there’s all the fussy detailing like the chrome around the taillights and even the aeformentioned rub strips, the whole car is just appears so busy for an otherwise simple design. Worst of all is the taillight design which reminds me of a Lincoln Versailles with an amber element taped on, just imagine a Continental hump tacked on. Blech!
Well, there seems to be some dispute about this car being underpowered. I can clarify my comment in a sentence or two.
A base ’88 Camry engine isn’t worse than the fours in ’88 cars with similar specs. It was worse – in terms of typical auto-trans American family sedan use – than the engines in cars with similar PRICES.
A new and pretty stark Camry four was priced comparably to a well-equipped V6 Taurus. If you had some kids and a bunch of junk to haul around suburbia with the a/c on, the Ford was a more useful car. Later Camrys got bigger, quieter, and relatively cheaper, at least after ’97, and their fours got bigger and torque-ier. That happened for good reason, in my experience.
Bingo
Having been around only a couple of these, what I can really remember is the quality of build materials. The cloth seats were sturdy and nice and the dash looked very nice to my eyes. I remember the doors closing with a very solid and confident “thunk”, they always seemed very well put together. Easy for me to say though, I love old Japanese iron just as much as any American or European horseless carriage.
These cars are finding their home right now, as cheap beaters. If you take a lightly used, somewhat well cared for 4 cyl model, could you POSSIBLY spend less, and get more in terms of a bottom feeder reliable car? You have to throw out the notion that this would work for a ‘car person’ obviously, unless they were in a pinch and willing to sacrifice that just to not be walking or busing it.
Here’s a what if: I don’t have kids and don’t want any, however IF I were a family man in need of a child transporter yet still an incurable gearhead, Id grab one of these. For no more than $3K, how can you go wrong? That’s a small sum, considering that I could still afford at least one vehicle I actually WANT, and not have to compromise it to be family friendly if I had one of these parked a block or so down the street where no one can actually see it in my driveway. If a kid or two spills food in it, or throws up in it or whatever kids do that inevitably ruins family cars then who cares. For a buy in price that’s about half the first year depreciation of a brand new mommy mobile, Id call this a winner.
“The moving seatbelt would rip the cigarette from her mouth.”
Sooooo, they did save lives.
I swore to myself that I would never ever own a car with motorized seat belts and I never did.
Mary Jean should have thanked her Camry’s auto-belts for deferring her next life-defying nicotine drag which was more effective than decades of the Surgeon General’s warnings on packs of her smokes.
Glad to see that you have adopted the British custom of comparing the size of a geographic area to the British Standard measure of such things – the Wales.
The next one is “the tower was XX times taller than Nelson’s column and then “it was YY times longer than London bus”
Interesting observation – we see similar variations in Europe. For example, if you want to see an older European car, go to France or Italy, not Germany. For an older Japanese car, well, rust has got most of them, but Britain is probably your best bet.
For an old British car, well, good luck!
I owned one of these (1989 base model 4 cylinder) for several years until I had it towed in 2007. It worked well for me and I always liked it- but it was pushing 20 years old and had some minor niggling problems that kept stacking up. Finally I twisted off the gas line attempting to replace the filter. I find Toyotas in general to be well-made, long-lived, reliable and performance-wise, sufficient. I think a Toyota is just right for a person with certain priorities. I still remember the wheeeeeee-clunk of the automatic shoulder belt. I was always envious of those with V6 models. I own a 2000 Corolla now.
This Camry (pictured) was maroon or thereabouts and has front portions transplanted from a similar eight ball black example.
These 87-91 Camrys are everywhere here in Australia, even in the year I’m writing this (2016). I would never even bother taking a photo of one because I know that an hour later, or maybe the next day, I’ll see another one.
The side view of this car is remindful of the same look (taillights coming around the fender in red and orange, and the same side molding appearance).
I will say, that here in Southern Ontario, I see with some regularity, Camrys (not Camries) of a good 20-25 year old vintage. Some kind of rust prevention had to have been applied in order to enable them to last so long, as well as mechanically required maintenance, although maybe not much more than oil changes and an occasional battery possibly.
I still do see 20-25 year old Honda Accords in these parts as well.