(first posted 1/31/2013. How can such a vanilla car (and the Prius) elicit such intense reaction in the comments? Oh, I know…)
There is absolutely no question that the events of 9/11 altered the psyche of the American public. They happened exactly a week after I started my freshman year of high school, and even though I soon went back to being more concerned about the latest Play Station 2 game and passing math class, the signs of change were all around my environment. Safety and security permeated the cultural zeitgeist for some time and, in many ways, still do. So how does the Camry fit in?
The Camry was already a gleaming example of suburban blandness before this particular generation hit Toyota dealerships, as evidenced in 1999’s American Beauty, in which Lester Burnham’s desire to feel young again results in his decision to trade his beigemobile for a Firebird. Would that choice have seemed even more reckless in a post 9/11 society? I’m not entirely sure, but what I do know is that the vehicle in question is Ambien in automotive form.
Coincidentally, in September 2001 this generation of Camry arrived, with a choice of two engines: a 2.4-liter, 157-hp four-cylinder; and a 3.0-liter V6, with 192 horses in its ranch. It was bigger in every way than its predecessor, whose horizontal headlights and taillights had been replaced with more vertical designs.
Our featured CC is the blandest of the bland: a four-cylinder LE with a beige exterior. Aside from giving it a friendly face, the Camry designers really didn’t do much at all: Its completely slab-sided doors intersect a very large greenhouse with a lightly raked windshield. Same as it ever was.
A more-angled rear window slightly differentiates the rear end from that of its ancestor, but you still can’t see the top of the trunk when backing up. I will give credit to Toyota for one thing: The chrome badges and strip above the license plate do enhance the looks quite a bit . The new “Empire Gold” plates, introduced several years ago in New York, do no such thing.
This interior pic is a bit out-of-focus, as though my cell phone realized where it was and decided to sleep through the task of trying to impart visual clarity to an extremely boring interior. All would be forgiven if this aesthetically challenged cabin made ergonomic sense, but alas, no such solace can be found there. The center stack is angled forward and away from both front occupants; from a comfortable seating position, I have to lean towards the windshield in order to reach the audio controls. In terms of material quality, only the steering wheel and shifter feel substantial; everything else neither offends nor impresses the soul.
So how does this specific transportation device operate? Pretty much, it’s just as exciting as that last sentence–in other words, it’s not very invigorating. “Keep calm and carry on”, which I believe is a popular saying, sufficiently characterizes its handling prowess. Yet it’s exactly what you want when you move out of that crowded city due to the apparently higher crime rates and poor public school system: It’s a superior people mover to replace the public transportation you’re leaving behind, and predictable every time, except when its not. Push the Camry beyond its comfort zone and grab a Xanax. You’ll need it once the understeer kicks in sooner than you thought.
But its not all bad news: The engine is silky smooth, and just as refined as some fours currently on the market nearly 10 years later. Pair it up with a soft-shifting transmission, and you’ve got a hell of a power train for navigating the local strip mall. If you were to sit in and drive the car while saying, “In this machine nothing can happen to me”, I really couldn’t blame you. The mission statement of this Camry is to give you comfort in an insecure and unpredictable world–but it comes at a price.
The driving dynamics of the Camry are an illusion; the serenity of the Camry’s plush ride gives way when challenged. And what of that notion of reliability which calms the nerves of those averse to automobiles? In that respect, this CC has been pretty stellar; At 63,000 miles it needs new tires, and the climate control backlight is non-functional unless you punch it–but of course, you have to lean forward in order to land the blow.
So if the 2004 Camry represents the illusion of security, what is represented by its competition at the time? I’ll always defend the Taurus, even if this was pretty much its low point. The bull definitely represented the underdog: It was being dismissed by many, but in reality actually offered a superior experience versus the Camry once you sat down and really got to know it, and with a much more coherent interior. The 2002 Altima was the overconfident new kid who tries hard to impress, but you know you’re in for serious trouble once he learns the job. On the other hand, the 2004 Accord symbolized progress: It was pretty much better than all its competitors because it was going somewhere. There was still a lot of road noise, but its evolution of mid-size sedan styling did inspire some nice designs for future generations of competitors’ offerings.
So what does the Camry say about us? It was the best-selling passenger car of the 2004 model year. Does a segment leader always need to blaze a new path of glory–or can it hold the line, self assured in its status, while demanding no avarice? I’m not entirely sure, but I’m with Lester Burnham: The Camry is not for people who crave youth–both literally and figuratively.
For such a strong-selling car, you surely don’t see many of them still on the roads, at least not in my part of the country, Previous generations of Camry still roam freely but these are increasingly rare. I wonder why.
These are all over the place in Seattle. Especially in “Asian grandparent beige” like the featured car.
“Asian grandparent beige” – my new favorite color name. 🙂
Still better than Appliance White or Bare Metal Silver.
I’d say no they are not “all of the place in Seattle” ok maybe Seattle proper but not out here in SE King Co. After reading this earlier today I had to go to the supermarket, the Metal Supermarket that is. On the way there I paid extra attention to the cars on the road. I saw as many 68-72 Novas as this generation of Camry at 2. I did see 5 or 6 of the generation prior to this and more than a dozen of the 00-07 Tauri. Admittedly it was a purely unscientific observation but I was surprised.
One reason is that the Camry is far from the best selling car in W Wa as the Prius takes that title and has for last 1/2 dozen or so years according to the Toyota commercials they run around here.
I know I’m super late to the party, but “Asian grandparent beige” is top-notch!
Absolute scads of them on the road here. I know why, too, because every time I drive a Camry I come away impressed. It is a big, smooth and economical car that will be reliable and last for years. It’s like a GM car from two decades ago, albeit one that doesn’t start to fall apart the day it got home.
Of course, gearheads do not like automotive success. Sure, the Camry sells by the train load and makes Toyota boat loads of money but it doesn’t have soft-touch interior, stick-shift or 400 hp.
Or good looks, or cool features, or soul…….
Agreed. These qualities have led to the immense success of GM and and complete failure of Toyota.
Seems Toyota just can’t make a car people want to buy.
I’m glad you found Jesus through Toyota, some of us less enlightened souls dont really care, I find 0 to like about a Camry and we even owned a used one for about 5 years, it was just an uncomfortable, plain soul-less car.
That shows your priorities.
Do me a favor. Take a screenshot of your quote, save it on a CD or flash drive. Look at it in 15 years and see if you still feel that way.
British sports cars caught on in the 1950s, especially with returning GIs who liked playing with them. They weren’t reliable by ANY stretch of the imagination…that didn’t matter. Not their priority.
The few who are still around…damn betcha they aren’t driving cars that tend to be troublesome. Or that they’re worried about a car with no “soul” or “kewel factor.”
People change; and priorities change. And you don’t need a Sting Ray to cruise the Interstate. In fact, it’s a pain to do it that way.
“The Camry is not for people who crave youth…”
When I was 21 an uncle once told me I had the world by the b—s. I had no idea what he was talking about. Now, at 52 I do.
There was also a time when I thought “why would anyone buy a Camry”? Now with all the business travel I do it is always a relief to find a Camry waiting for me at the Hertz counter. Calm. comfortable, reliable, predictable.
And with regard to the return of the orange and blue NY plates of my youth, hear, hear! Some states were getting out of hand with their kaleidoscope of colors on white backgrounds. I also recall recently seeing a NM plate with the historical teal (?) and yellow. All good…
The last rental Camry I had was making my passenger seasick, the way it lurched forward onto the front suspension at the slightest application of the brakes. Also, having owned the very refined 1992 Camry, I was amazed at how cheap and tinny everything was. Like comparing a ’67 Chevy Biscayne to a Caprice, only worse.
I just recently saw that New Mexico plate for the first time, I love it… I like the current New York plates too, but I think Ed was actually saying he thought they sucked.
Sean,
Your’re right, I do dislike the new NY plates. Mostly because I really like the previous Empire Blue plates, and its predecessor, the white on red with the Statue of Liberty in the middle. These new plates are just half assed, in my opinion, especially when it says “Empire State” instead of “The Empire State”
The red, white & blue with the Statue of Liberty in the middle was the best. I wish they would go back to that one, or offer it as a vanity plate or something.
It’s harking back to tradition.
I’m old enough (and a former NeYawker) to remember the 1972-86 series, also Empire Blue on yellow-gold; decades earlier, in the forties and fifties, those colors were used varying with yellow-on-blue.
The blue on white with red trim, was a new direction for New York license plates
Good review. I like this car because it does what a car should – It just works, and it works well, without any frills. Could the existance of more of the older models mean that this phase of Camry was moving away from Toyota’s core values and the older models are therefore more ‘coverted’? This has happened I think to an extent in Europe with the Carina then subsequent models of Avensis.
Great write up! Describing the Camry for what it truly is… not bashing it, nor praising it for something it isn’t. I wouldn’t be caught dead in a Camry, but (at least until a few years ago anyway) they are comfortable, safe, and reliable.
The Carmy is still one of the most reliable cars sold.
My former company had one of these as a “company car”. I drove it between buildings once in a while when I could snag it instead of a GMC Savana (in child molester white no less). It road nice, was pretty quiet, had ok power for a 4 cyl. At 190K miles it was on its 3rd engine because of sludge issues (first 2 blew up) and second transmission.
At the time I was commuting in a 98 Lesabre. They actually drove pretty similar except the Buick had more muscle and was a little quieter. I also liked the driving position in the Buick vs. the Toyota, but I tend to not fit very well in Japanese cars unless they have a telescoping steering column. Legs are too long for my arms, and I don’t like the Italian arms out driving position.
Anyway…I can see why they were so popular for the sheeple. Very boring, and unoffensive without a hint of character…basically every non-car person in the world.
I’m glad that you brought up the engine sludging issues – too many people I talk to still have no clue that Toyota ever even had this problem – it’s very important to be aware of when shopping for a used Toyota (same as when looking at a 10-year-old Honda/Acura with an automatic trans).
a guy I work with just had his wife’s RX300 go pop because of this. He is not pleased.
Its dissapointing but it happens to every company out there at some point or another.
I don’t intend to throw fuel on the fire, but the Camry I drove was given the same maint schedule as the 4 GMC vans (1 4.3 V6 and 3 4.8 V8’s) and 1 Chevy box truck, the van’s had all original drivetrain componants and all have well over 250K miles on them (box truck was over 350K)
Sure every company “forgets” to do durability testing on numerous engine families.
The engines didn’t blow up because of sludge they blew up because they were poorly designed, they didn’t have adequate oil flow to the camshaft. Toyota just kept riding on the blame it on the consumer train. For a couple of years they maintained there was nothing wrong with the design of the engine, until they redesigned the engine. Then there position was we fixed the issue, not that there was an issue, but we fixed it anyway.
Impossible, never in recorded history has there been a Toyota with a fault, you must be domestic biased Camaro loving fanboi extraordinare.
Very late to the party but Toyota have had some problematic engines, just like every carmaker. My IS250 has the engine where carbon buildup can damage the valves, I’ve not had this problem (periodic near redlining blows out the carbon), it’s now 14 years old, has over 200K km on it and so far I’ve had to replace the water pump, replace the front brake disks and recondition all calipers, oh and replace the battery. In my book that’s a fantastic result for a 14 year old car – oh and I replace oil only once a year with synthetic and do no special maintenance. So I’d definitely go for another Toyota.
We are pushing 300,000 miles on one of these supposedly sludge-prone engines without a hint of trouble, and on conventional oil. Toyota’s “band aid” of changing the oil change schedule from 7500miles/one year to 5000miles/6 months on ALL subsequent Toyota models, is probably overkill in most situations, but those operated by the previously mentioned Asian grandparents who drive such short trips that the engine never warms up.
We have one of these curbside classics as well. We have the 2004 LE 2.4 L but the most boring copper color with 65,000 on the ODO. We have taken this car to Albuquerque, NM, Yosemite, San Francisco Oregon and quite other places. The Albuquerque trip from So-Cal has been made for 9 times.
During those trips we set the cruise control and are always astonished at the mileage we still get. I kid not! the best mileage ever was last Sunday after Thanksgiving. We got 37 friggin’ miles per hour. And we always get close to or above fuel mileage specifications. We love this car!
How do you have so few miles on the car with using it for so many road trips?
My other half and I live in the suburbs and the car is only driven 5 miles round trip mon-fri to the subway station. The subway takes care of the other 32 miles each day 🙂 On weekends and holidays is when the real driving happens. 😛
I can’t believe I couldn’t identify my own car in the Curbside Clue! I guess that says something about the generic looks! Mine is the same year, but in a more interesting color — medium blue metallic. I have nearly 114,000 miles on it, and it’s been fuel efficient and super reliable. The car has traveled across the country and is now my usual daily commuter.
That is a very nice color. I’m surprised people so few people drive cars these colors. If you’re gonna drop more than $10K on a vehicle, it may as well be a color you like.
While I’ll never be Toyo Fanboi, I would definitely be fine with owning one of these. I drove a ’98 4-cylinder Camry for awhile after putting a used engine in it and was very impressed with how the car was bolted together. Tolerances were close and I appreciated the fact that a snapped timing belt wouldn’t grenade the engine..
My 45-minute work commute became forgettable during my Camry phase. I felt so ‘incognito’ and ignored by other drivers…nobody challenged me at traffic lights, passed me on double-yellows, etc. and it was quite nice.
The greatest part was the fact that I never wasted time wondering what would break on it next…nor did I think about what I could do to spruce it up. It worked perfectly without any fuss or attitude. It was kind of nice being released from a lifelong obsession for awhile.
Your comment summarizes the Camry experience almost perfectly. I didn’t exactly expect that from you 🙂
I have lucid moments every now and then! 😛
First, meet the 1960s Chevy Impala reimagined for the 2000s. Good looking, socially acceptable, and reasonably trouble-free. It didn’t do any one thing as well as the best in a given segment. But for a complete package overall, it was often the best compromise.
The biggest rap on these is that they were not as good as the earlier ones. I think it was a difference in concept from Toyota. Where this car was analogous to the 60s Chevy, the prior versions had been more like the 1940s Mopar – tremendously overbuilt, with less emphasis on visual appeal. As much as I like the philosophy behind the earlier cars, the later ones seem to be more in tune with what most car buyers want.
Second, I always liked the look of these better than those that came either before or after. A sister in law has one and it has taken very good care of her. After a late 80s Lebaron convertible, a late 80s BMW 325 and a 95 Intrepid (that made it to almost 300K, more of a Decrepid), the Camry has to be bland but in a blissful kind of way.
You hit the nail on the head. I always chuckle with GM fans bash the Camry as boring. Aside from the fact that the direct GM competitors are no more exciting than the Camry, the hard truth is that GM’s success in general, and Chevrolet’s in particular, was built on selling boring cars like the Camry.
From 1930 until 1955, the Ford, in my opinion, was better looking than the comparable Chevrolet in every year except 1932 and 1941. And the Ford had the flathead V-8, while Chevrolet had the Stovebolt six. But, except for one or two years, Chevrolet easily trounced Ford in sales. The Chevrolet was the Camry of its day – comfortable, reliable and “period-attractive,” though hardly cutting edge in style.
Starting in 1955, we got more vivid styling, with some really attractive years (1955-57, and 1965-66 in particular). And Chevrolet did have the new V-8. But most of those V-8s were not the “hot” versions. They did the same thing that the old Stovebolt six did, but with more power, because increasingly affluent Americans wanted automatic transmissions, air conditioning and power steering, and the new interstate highway system could handle 75 mph cruising speeds.
I always chuckle when I go to car shows and see all of the Chevrolets equipped with hot engines or in the convertible body style (and invariably painted red). Those cars are collectible today because they were rare when new.
Most people I knew drove around in Impala hardtops or sedans with the basic V-8, Powerglide, power steering and AM radio. If your parents splurged, they got air conditioning, and if they went wild on the option sheet, they ordered a vinyl roof and fancy wheel covers. The big V-8s were for “hot rodders” and a “waste of money.” I remember my uncle saying that power windows and seats were just two more things to “go wrong” as the car got older.
Toyota built a better Chevrolet than GM did for the mass market. And then, with Lexus, it built better Buicks and Cadillacs than GM did.
Who bashed it? I simply said it was good but boring transportation. I doubt it was really better than a comparable Lumina or Impala of the day.
.
And yes, I know there are going to be the typical posters telling me how wrong I am because the Impala was a POS and GM is the worst company in the world blah blah.
For some people the Camry is an excellent choice. Generally, for a car enthusiast it isn’t even on the radar. I agree that the right tool for the right job is appropriate…but only if you have the means to have more than one tool.
If somehow think a Lumina is a better car than a Camry you:
1. Have never driven either car.
2. Can’t read any rating agency’s data.
3. Have never owned or talked to a repair shop owner.
4. Have forgotten that GM went bust because of products like the Lumina.
The Camry (and the Accord) DESTROYED the hold GM had on the family sedan market. The Lumina is no more. The GM that made it is NO MORE. It is a zombie that only exists on government hand-outs.
1. I have driven both.
2. Can read very well thank you, and the stats are only as good as their source
3. Don’t put much credibility in the word of people who sound like a broken record
4. GM went bust because of poor management, a bad economy and some boring product…GM isn’t the only company to be bailed out, don’t think Honda, Toyota, et al haven’t gotten some kind of help in the past either, heck, even BMW got some of the US’s money under different headlines but what amounted to a handout also.
The Lumina is still on the road, its called Impala…same car different name.
I have been trying to not directly reply to toxic posts…I failed today.
“The Camry (and the Accord) DESTROYED the hold GM had on the family sedan market.”
Sorry, not true.
Initially the Ford Taurus was the 800 lb. gorilla while all of these cars were in competition with one another. Then the Accord reigned supreme for a while, THEN the Camry.
There really wasn’t ONE car from GM that dominated like the previously mentioned three, at least not since the late 1970’s. Of course, adding up all of the various A-, W- and H-bodies (depending which timeframe we’re comparing) from all of the divisions together would come close or equal these juggernauts.
Now that I’ve typed all of this out, I see that geeber essentially said the same thing. This is what happens when you attempt to post while at work.
Who bashes the Camry? Visit the message boards at thetruthaboutcars.com, edmunds.com or gminsidenews.com.
It would be easier to list the GM fans who DON’T bash it.
I was referring to posters on those sites, not you.
I agree with Canucklehead – the GM-10 cars helped hand the family sedan market over to the Camry. (Actually, they handed it over to Ford first, and then the Accord and Camry captured it from Ford.)
The first Lumina was a very half-hearted effort that received mediocre reviews, at best. The second one was much improved, but still not up to Camry levels.
edmunds is hardly a GM fan,
go to a GM website and see them bash toyota, not a surprise.
The Camry is an appliance like a dishwasher, and there is nothing wrong with that.
I’m not sure the GM-10s were really comparable to Camrys in the begining, the Camry and Accord used to be Grand Am and Tempo sized, GM-10s were closer to Maxima and Cressida sized.
FWIW, the Camry SE V6 (sports suspension) is (has been) about as sporty and fast a sedan in its class that one could buy, and is consistently praised for its handling and performance. Comparing one against a new Impala as a “car for enthusiasts” is going to a rather lopsided affair.
In late 2009, I had a 2010 Camry SE four banger for a two week road trip through Arizona and Utah. The car did not need the V-6; the four banger worked just great and returned 30 mpg at 80 mph at high altitude. The handling was excellent, the ride comfortable and I seriously considered buying one when I came back.
My next car will probably be a Camry hybrid.
GM fanbois have always been from an alternate reality. Do they still think Toyota poisoned our drinking water to make us buy their cars?
It doesn’t need it (the V6). I was just pointing out that the SE/V6 is a formidable sports sedan, for those wanting that.
The Toyota Camry was a great car for the average Chevy buyer of the generation before. I really get the impression the newer car is badly built.
Anyway, my impression not being an indicator of anything but my own cynicism, the Camry, like the average old Chevy, is a car for discussion of readers of Consumer Reports. To people who spend their valuable time scouring curbsides for interesting car, it is what people say it is: Boring.
I very much appreciate the neutral demeanor of the Camry.
I had a Mazda 6 for a bit- and it was fun, but the highway ride was terrible in comparison to the Toyota. I traded it for a 2012 Camry and I’m happy with the decision.
Even automotive enthusiasts can enjoy a bland-mobile. It’s about having the right tool for the job, so to speak.
The ones I remember being ubiquitous were the late 90s generation. Everyone had them. In beige or white. Advertised by that “TV Guy”, the man in the television set who would show up on the beach playing volleyball, etc. This generation seemed to me to be a ripoff of the mid 90s Honda Accord, especially the taillights. I don’t see too many of them around either. I do see a lot of the ’97-’01 or so generation. Often with a pushed in corner of the rear “bumper”.
My parents had a standard 5-speed ’98 CE. White with grey interior. it was smooth and quiet, but it was like driving around in an office park cubicle.
At the time I was driving an ’87 Crown Victoria in two-tone blue. I was in high school at the time. My parents’ driveway was a study in contrasts.
Halfway through college I sold the Vicky and bought an ’87 Fleetwood Brougham. Around graduation, they sold the Camry and bought an ’05 Prius. The driveway still looked pretty interesting when I’d come home from college!
We had a ’94 Camry LE which was not so boring & actually attracted attention from strangers. Why? It was the relatively rare wagon version (made in USA); the reason we got it was that it had a folding seat in the cargo area. It was a bit underpowered with the 2.2L twincam & automatic (not always a good match), but served us well until the kids outgrew it & parts started wearing out (~150K miles) which cost more than it was worth.
Re the writer’s remarks on its dashboard, so long as it’s easy to see & reach, I think it *should* be boring; the driver’s eyes ought to be on the road instead of dashboard dainties. This is why, for example, the radio should be mounted high, closer to the driver’s line-of-sight since it is more likely to be used than the temperature controls. There’s no good reason to get artsy in dashboard design since they all become dull anyway over time.
My father bought his first Camry in 1987 and drove it for over 200,000 miles. His second was a black 1999 Camry. A few years later when my mother’s Prism died he bought a gray 2005 Camry LE – similar to the car in the article, and the 99 become my mother’s car.
In 2008 when my wife and I decided to get rid of our aging and abused 2000 Mazda MPV we shopped a lot of sedans but settled on a Camry SE – a little sportier than a “regular” Camry but (hopefully) with the same reliability.
In 2009 my father passed away and my mother gave the 99 to my son who was 16 at the time. We put some money into it – new tires, struts, etc. It only has about 88,000 miles and is in good shape overall – my son will probably have it for a long time.
Camry’s do what they are designed to do – get people where they need to go – with a minimum of fuss. I’ve had my share of unreliable cars and to not have to worry too much about a car is worth a lot.
Maybe someday I’ll get something more exciting (I love the look of the new Challengers) but for right now boring is good.
I love the Camry and I always have. They empitomise Japanese design and the Toyota way. They are a well designed car. Whenever I am in one, I am always impressed how easy everything is to use. The control placements are right. The seats are comfortable and large. The heater and a/c are excellent. Handling is safe and predictable. When you buy one, you will not be surprised or disappointing.
Toyota has taken all the core values family sedan shoppers want and put them in a compelling, affordable and reliable package. They have in effect out-done the American car makers in their own market. Imagine that! A Japanese company, coming from a culture as different from America as anyone can imagine, have beat Detroit at their own game. Compare that to the mega-lame attempts Detroit have made in Japan!
That is simply a brilliant piece of marking, ladies and germs. I can’t think of another instance of such economic success.
Love is a strong word, but I respect the Camry. I certainly love renting them, after years of Ford and GM stuff. The 2011 Camry I rented two years ago reminded me of the cars developed in West Germany, before reunification put them on the path towards decadence. The Camry just triumphed by being the best. It never had clever marketing, or too many accolades from the press. It just won over millions of people one at a time. I didn’t understand the love for the Camry felt by the first person I knew to own one, but I do now. She’d been through a bunch of Saabs and a Jeep previously, so a quality car was a revelation to her. My West German cars weren’t as bad, so I didn’t see the point in buying some cubist appliance. Well, the German stuff has lost its dynamic excellence and the Japanese have rounded off the rough edges. I could imagine owning a Camry.
CJ’s assessment is dead-on. (EDIT: So is JP’s further up the thread, comparing today’s Camry to the ubiquitous Chevy Impala of the 1960s.)
Sheer automotive competence isn’t particularly interesting or exciting, but it’s also damn hard to achieve, and Toyota consistently nails it with the Camry.
I dont see the comparison to the Impala, other than they were both sold in large numbers, the Impala came in several bodystyles, hardtops, sedans, coupe, converitible, etc and a half dozen engine choices The Impala looked good, it hit certain style/price/feature points that made it attractive to many people, by comparison the Camry is a dull as dishwater one body style sedan in which you basically decide if you want Champagne Silvermist Metalllic or Metallic Silvermist Champage with the deluxe or super deluxe wheel covers.
Just like the Impala now…
Um, no; you can buy a Camry with three different powertrains: four, hybrid, and V6. And you can buy an SE, which is a genuine sports sedan.
According to who?
Paul, I respect your opinion, but the only thing sporty about a V6 Camry is the acceleration. You can’t even turn off the stability control on them. I know Toyota actually made some real changes for the SE model (actual structural changes!), but it is hardly a sports sedan. Maybe a “sporty” sedan.
I always chuckle when people bring up the plastic clading on the older Pontiacs, then I see the Camry SE’s, and Corolla S models out there with their JC Whitney looking tacked on ground effects and spoiler. They seem to be the last hold out in the 80’s cliche sporty look add ons.
Phil, I am not a young man but I have been driving for a very long time, including almost a decade of taxi driving. I drove a Camry SE four cylinder for two straight weeks and it has what is, for me anyway, an ideal combination of ride, handling, room and economy. I seriously thought about buying one when I got home. The only thing I didn’t like was the cloth upholstery was lame.
In comparison to my Acura TL, well the Acura wins hands down in body stiffness and suspension control. Sure it has more power but it also uses at least 20% more gasoline that the Toyota. The Toyota is also more comfortable on rough roads as the suspension is softer.
On the whole, the TL is a better car but a new one would list at least $10,000 more than a Camry SE. The new Accord is also very attractive and will make an excellent used buy in a few years.
I don’t think the comparison to fifty year old Impalas is fair either. Planned obsolescence was in full effect at the time, and those cars aged like milk so that GM’s near-captive audience would feel compelled to buy another car with a solid axle, drum brakes, a two-speed transmission, an extra cost heater, frozen engine technology, theoretical safety, and a conscious effort to make people feel no better than the amount they could pay. The order sheet to bring a 1962 Impala(as opposed to Biscayne or Bel Air, which were for paupers) up to the standard equipment level of a 1977 Accord would have been two pages long, could it have been done at all.
There was no 1977 Accord in 1962, so that comparison is unfair. EVERYTHING in 1962 was “primitive” next to an Accord that debuted 15 years later.
You have to compare the 1962 Impala to its only real competition, which, in 1962, were the Ford Galaxie, Plymouth Fury and Dodge Dart (not the compact version; that wouldn’t come until 1963).
Foreign cars of that time were too unreliable, underpowered or uncomfortable, or all three, for most Americans.
While the Accord obviously came much later, the point was the difference in philosophy between the Japanese and Detroit when Detroit didn’t have to worry about competition. There were plenty of ‘options’ on an Impala that were only options in that they had to be paid for over list price. Things like interior lighting, 2 speed wipers, power steering or brakes, the aforementioned heater and the two speed fan for it. Many of these ‘options’ would have gone on virtually every car sold to the public. When the Japanese started selling cars in real numbers here, they didn’t want myriad combinations of options, as that only complicated their logistics for selling something thousands of miles from home. The bundling that resulted made cars better value for customers at the same time that it saved money for the manufacturers. GM could have done the same, but preferred to charge their customers more, even if it meant greater expense to GM an their dealers too. While some customers paid exorbitantly to have what they wanted, many cars end up being sold discounted to get people to take options they didn’t care about. This still goes on every day on any Detroit dealer’s lot.
Thanks to Japan, for quite a while automotive offerings were rationalized and simplified. Sure, people didn’t like feeling that they were paying for some feature or other that they didn’t care about, but all one needs to do is look at how much more the induhviduals of Europe pay for their cars before VAT to see what personalization costs, and most wind up with less features than US buyers anyway. Personalized cars are also a drag on resale values. GM had more data to work with than anyone else, but they held to the practice of setting up the suckers instead of creating real value for their customers, which would have seen them hold onto their market.
You’re not looking at the 1960s new-car market with the same set of values and aspirations as the majority of buyers did at that time.
In the 1960s, a very large chunk of new-car buyers consisted of people in their 40s, 50s and 60s. These were people who had started driving when the Ford Model T was the most popular car in America (with over 50 percent of the market), or were children during that time.
During their time, the auto market had been guided by Henry Ford’s philosophy that you could have any color you wanted, as long as it was black.
By the time the 1960s hit, these buyers were more prosperous than they had ever imagined that they would be (having lived through the Great Depression and World War II).
To them, the ability to custom-order a car was a great innovation. They didn’t want the exact same car as their neighbor (if anything, it was considered poor form to copy too closely what your neighbors had just bought).
The Honda philosophy caught on with their children – the Baby Boomers.
What is the most common complaint I hear today’s buyers voice about new cars? That the selection of colors (particularly interior colors) is too limited, and that too many cars look alike.
What goes ’round, comes ’round…
Funny thing I see Ford has tried to supply Taxi operators here with Ecoboost Falcons touting the improved economy of their large car. However Toyota has been selling Hybrid Camrys as Taxis and now offered 300,000KM warranties on them, Falcon Taxis Nar nobody wants them. And a warranty that long on a severe duty car. I guess they are bloody good cars.
Performance sedan? Nar even the sportivo model is a bit under done here against the Australian Sedans which are the Camrys direct competition here. Great handling? Nar they had to fit a stability programn to even be acceptable. My mates 90 model which of course you couldnt get was fast very fast but the whole car got severely detuned for world consumption a pity because the original wide body Camry was rather good and cornered ok.
Better’d get used to them. The Australians aren’t blind to the appeal of buying a quality car for once, and the Camry has a fair chance of being the best selling car in Oz this year, at least as good a chance as Failcon and Commode have of seeing another generation.
Bryce, your mate is driving a 23 year old JDM model. It has about as much in common with today’s North American model as the Saturn V has with a firecracker.
JDM and NZ got those originals new and his was NZ new with proper tuned suspension so NOT a JDM do you understand a very different car to the OZ or US camry. I regularly see the Camry stability programn in operation all you have to do is follow a fast driven Camcam thru a tight corner and watch it fight the inertia, then overtake those things have abysmal cornering ability and unfortunately we are now stuck with Ozzy spec cars with slow steering racks and softer suspension.
Principal Skinner approved……..
The Camry might be a vanilla-bland driving experience, but this and the previous two generations (1992-96 and 1997-2000) actually won a few Car and Driver comparison tests on based solely on their fit and finish and assembly quality. That’s what made the Camry such a winner.
Am I right in thinking The Lumina was based on the Celebrity? Rounded edges on the more square outgoing model? Did it replace the Celebrity?
The Lumina was built on the GM-10, AKA the W-Body, that debuted in 1988. The Celebrity was built on the A-Body, which was a revised X-Body, that the Citation was built on and debuted in 1979 as an early 1980 model.
I see there’s an awful lot of love/hate for the Camry here…let me join in and agree wholeheartedly.
I’d never buy a car like this…no, let me rephrase that. Up until now, I’d never see myself buying a car like the Camry. And in fact I had access to a lightly used one of this generation, free or nearly free…out of my mother’s estate. I passed.
I passed because, Jeep-driving, hard-charging me, couldn’t grasp the Camry experience. Like you said, a Blandmobile. No soul. But it did have its place.
Such as in the driveway of an elderly woman…someone who entered adulthood not knowing how to drive. As a young woman surrounded by ex-GI hot-rodders, she never got it. And her first car in young married life was a Chevrolet New Look pickup.
The following car, a Ford Country Squire, had automatic transmission…which she loved. But it lacked power steering. The cars that followed were, in order, a lemon, a rust-bucket, an 8-mpg gas hog, a cheap shoddy American econobox, then a pricey shoddier foreign-brand econobox made in Pennsylvania.
And then my brother steered her to the Toyota store…practically had to kidnap her.
But she bought the first-gen Camry. Liked the car but didn’t trust it…how would it hold up? Good enough, as it turned out, that she replaced it many years later with one of these, numerous trips to Florida behind her…with her just-as-elderly friends.
That last is important. Elderly ladies don’t care about the enticing burble of a small-block Chevy V8. Elderly ladies don’t want to speed-shift. Elderly ladies don’t want to rocket through the sweepers…they don’t even care if the steering is numb as novacaine. They care about COST…RELIABILITY…QUIETLY-TASTEFUL APPEARANCE.
And I was all for my mother getting another. The LAST thing an arthritic elderly lady needs is to have to walk out of a situation on the freeway. By the time she bought this one, the Florida trips were done, as it turned out…she didn’t know it for certain, but knew they wouldn’t be frequent. But for her life, her routine, her needs…which involved 150-mile trips at times…this was the car.
I suspect soon it, or what replaces it in the future, will be my car also. People change; and needs and priorities change.
Congrats grandpa, do you want silvermist beige or silver beigemist?
Early bird starts at 4.
Meanwhile….
LONDON (CNNMoney) —Fresh from reclaiming its crown as the world’s largest automaker, Toyota has been hit by another major recall.
The Japanese carmaker said Wednesday it was recalling more than 1 million vehicles sold in the United States over faulty airbags and windshield wipers.
The airbag control issue affects about 752,000 Corolla and Corolla Matrix cars sold in 2003 and 2004. And the windshield wiper issue affects some 270,000 Lexus IS models sold between 2006 and early 2012.
Toyota said there was the possibility that the Corolla airbags could deploy inadvertently, and the Lexus wipers may not operate if restricted by a heavy buildup of snow.
I’m there!
(c8
You know, if you live long enough and think about it enough, you’ll start seeing your old man in yourself. My old man, in his late forties, bought a Jeep Wagoneer…to get to a remote location where he was building a cabin.
In his fifties, he got bored with the idea of off-road driving; and as it happened, the road to the cabin got paved (town upgrade). There he was, stuck with a car which had NONE of his new old-man tastes for quiet and ease of operation.
Me, too, same point in life…same deal. Always wanted a Jeep CJ. What I got was a YJ Wrangler with front-end damage, that I reworked with a CJ front clip. Pull the carpet, yank the doors…flop down the windshield…and it was fun. For three years or so.
Now…I’m the archtypical Toyota customer. I still love responsive handling, but not as much as I love rust resistance or a start on a cold morning.
Gotta cut it short…the Early BIrd Senior Special starts in a few minutes at Golden Corral…
LATE EDIT: I don’t buy the dangerous, dangerous recall of bad, bad Toyota products. Any more than I bought the excrement three years ago about self-launching Toyotas, which instead was a self-start on a hoped-for massive product-liability lawsuit.
Toyota will stumble, just as GM did and VW later did. But aside from being overpriced, it hasn’t happened. Yet.
But you do buy that all GM vehicles are essentially pretty much Vegas right?
Starts on a cold morning?
Is it 1964?
Is there are new car today in 2013 that has trouble starting on a cold morning?
My last non-Toyota cars, a Dodge minivan and a Geo Metro…several Metros, actually. The Dodge minivan, the Gen3 with the swoopy curves…the rear suspension and right-rear shock absorber mount rusted right off. And it was too far gone in that area to patch up; while at the same time the transmission (NOT the Ultradrive) lost high gear and reverse. Into the garbage pile it went.
The Metros…great little cars to drive. But one of them broke the underframe up front that held the suspension together…in the rain on the freeway, it suddenly went pigeon-toed. Took it into my wrench, he put a pry-bar in there and the toe-out came right back in. And he pronounced it unsafe to drive and not repairable.
My OTHER Metro…a rust-free Montana specimen…started a trip from Indianapolis to Cleveland, like many others I’d done…and I started losing power. And more power…and ten miles from home, 350 miles covered, it quit.
And stayed quit. The exhaust valves, all of them, had burned. I later found out it was a common problem with the Suzuki three-pot when the EGR valve jammed up.
I had a new engine put in; it was a botched replacement; and I sold it to someone who was willing to work further on it.
So…in answer to your question…reliability and rest resistance is not as automatic and as universal as you might think. And there’s a reason why the Toyota Blandmobile parade rolls on…
Ahh, a Metro, yeah, thats a good comparison.
Okay.
Metro’s no good to compare with. Nor a Pinto; nor a Vega.
How about an Escort? I had one…60,000 miles one cam lobe wore clear off. Obviously a case of that cam lobe not having been hardened. Factory says go screw. I have to come up with nine hundred 1988 dollars to have it replaced.
How about a Horizon TC3? The ex had one…eight years after purchase, the floor pan came unlaminated from the body. Rust “may have been” the cause; the result was a car for the boneyard.
How many more would you like to hear about? :{D
Again nearly 30 plus year old disposable cheap cars?
1988 was a long long time ago.
Was that the deal? Because the price tag was lower, I should EXPECT to be ripped off with an inferior, flawed and even deliberately mis-engineered product?
I didn’t even mention my Chevette, which threw a rod at 30,000 miles. I had it towed to the Chevrolet stealership – it still being a relatively new model and in a smallish town.
There, in the giganormous service bay, were THREE OTHER Chevettes with their engines out! So…hoping to find a “hidden warranty” a lot of which were around at the time…I asked the service manager.
“No…no,” he said. “Chevrolet would go broke if they had one on that car. They all do that.” Meaning, a lot of Chevettes were having catastrophic failures with the engines.
“You should have bought an Impala.”
No…(expletive)…I thought to myself. I should have bought a Toyota – like many of my co-workers had done.
Took me 20 more years to actually put my money where my Inner Homicidal Maniac was at that moment…but eventually I did and I don’t see any need to go back.
Carmine, it seems the GM’s success speaks for itself. It it is marketing behemoth, a force that all car makers shrink from.
I have to disagree. My father is 66, retired and had done nothing but beg my mother to let him buy a Mustang GT conv. with a 5 speed manual for years now.
When my parents were looking for a car last year they test drove quite a few. The salemen would often try to steer them into cars such as the Chrysler 300 with the 6, The Regal with the 2.4, The Taurus with the 3.5 etc.
They test drove the Chrysler 300 Hemi, the Regal turbo and the Taurus SHO.
Age doesn’t always change your priorities…I think age might just change people to lose their enthusiasm for things and accept what they’ve probably felt all along.
BTW…You complain about Chrysler rust and quality…how about Toyota Frame rust?
No car is immune to rust.
The proof of the pudding is, how does the manufacturer address problems once they’re identified? Does it sweep them under the rug and proceed on its merry way? Or do its best to make its products better?
When I was a kid, Japanese cars, Toyota included, rusted so fast it was rare to find a four-year-old one that was anything other than junk. It took a decade or so, but Toyota (and apparently Nissan) conquered that problem.
Now, which model are you referring with “frame rust”? Toyota cars are unit body. The trucks and SUVs seem to hold up well….sure, they’ll rust in 15 years; anything washed with brine for years will.
The truck frames rust so bad spare tires fall off while driving down the road, Toyota has repurchased a lot of some models of the truck and they did replace frames on a whole bunch of them too. Google Toyota frame rust.
I have to wonder if that’s another Internet-manufactured alternate reality. Toyota trucks are popular here, in central Wisconsin…as is road salt. Very, very popular and plentiful, both.
That said, I don’t hear a lot of trash-talk about Toyota trucks. Sure they’ll rust – as I said. But it seems the most popular bed-breaking-off-the-frame truck is the Ford Ranger.
The most popular sheets-of-steel-flapping-in-the-wind truck is the Dodge…the first generation revitalized Dodge of 1995 and later. It was all new and all improved – but rusted just like the old ones.
It seems there’s an element in our culture that just HATES success and can’t HELP but spread untruths, stage false events, whatever it can, to make the winners losers in the hope of making losers winners. No matter all the poor-mouthing of Toyota products, the customers keep coming. And the used prices of Toyotas stay high.
Because large numbers of people find value in their models and have had good experiences with them
I don’t think I see anyone hating success, I think it is that people can’t stand the blind love others have no matter how many FACTS you throw at them.
I have a friend who purchased a new Camry during the accelerator pedal fiasco. He made the purchase AFTER his brother in law wreched a Highlander from a stuck pedal. I asked him why he was buying a Toyota, his answer was that he thought they were great cars that never had any problems…ugg
Also the same guy couldn’t explaine why he voted for candidate X….his only answer was because he didn’t like the last guy…couldn’t really give an answer other than that.
Lets just say, there is more than one born everyday, and people fall for marketing and statistics very easily with conerns to everything in life.
It reminds me of a friend of mine who had recently bought a new Accord. I asked him why he chose it over the other cars in it’s class. He said he didn’t consider any other cars since the previous one had been so reliable and he never had a single problem with it.
Fast forward a couple of weeks and I was over at his house to help him move something heavy. In passing he said he had went to drive the old Accord he kept since his son was due to get his driver’s license soon. to “keep the battery up” and it wouldn’t start and he was going to have to have it towed to the shop. I offered to take a look at it. So we popped the hood.
I checked for spark knowing that era Accord was notorious for problems with the distributor imploding and the ignition modules failing. When discussing that he suddenly remembered that yes the ign control module had failed once and the distributor had imploded a couple of years after that. Both times he was left stranded and had to call a tow truck. I did find an intact distributor that was making spark.
Next was fuel, a quick splash of gas in the intake and the car fired up for a couple of seconds. Sure enough the fuel pump was not pumping. I mentioned it could be the fuel pump or the fuel pump (main) relay and low and behold he suddenly remembered that it too had failed in the past, leaving him in need of a tow truck.
But it had been a perfect car that never gave him a single problem.
Eric, I was not aware that a 2013 Accord had a distributor. Must be the last car still made with one.
With so many problems in a brand new car, why didn’t the owner just call roadside assistance and have it towed in for repair under warranty?
http://automobiles.honda.com/accord-sedan/specifications.aspx
I leave it to others to assess the veracity of that story.
I did not say it was his new Accord that wouldn’t start it was his old one which is a 1992. So maybe you guys should actually read the entire comment.
I think that most people who have had a good experience with a product are pretty forgiving if they have a problem, and are very forgiving if they have heard about problems but have not actually experienced one.
Chrysler sold a lot of cars in the 1960s and 70s to folks who had good experiences up through the early to mid 1950s GM was a huge beneficiary of this goodwill in the 1970s and 80s due to customers from the 50s and 60s who had been very satisfied.
Toyota and Honda get this sort of customer goodwill now. I work with a guy whose 04 Honda Odyssey left them stranded on the highway due to a failing transmission. What did they buy? Another Odyssey. I attribute this largely to the great experience customers had with Hondas and Toyotas in the 80s and 90s, companies that indisputably upped the level of quality that the average car buyer experienced from the norm of U.S. cars in the 70s and 80s. I think it is fair to say in each of these examples that the company earned that goodwill. The trick is to keep earning it instead of squandering it on bad vehicles. With costs rising in Japan and more competition all over, it is getting harder for Toyota and Honda maintain these hard-won reputations.
That’s a pretty spot-on analysis. And, I might add, not only is Toyota not going to keep its top-dog spot; they’re in the process of losing it now.
I find the current product lineup overpriced; and cuts in quality are the next step when buyers resist on the sticker price. Meantime, the Koreans have learned well from the Japanese…Hyundai especially. The idea of a luxury Hyundai was laughable 25 years ago; now it’s a reality. And the wage and exchange structure is such, they enjoy a price advantage.
The wheel in the sky keeps on turning…
JP, Japan is now working hard to devalue the overpriced Yen.
I would say the demise of the Japanese auto industry will take a little while.
I agree. There is a different culture at work, I think. For example, at Toyota’s Princeton Indiana plant, production stopped for several months due to slack demand, a bad economy, and later the aftereffects of the tsunami and its resultant parts shortages. Nobody got laid off. Instead, everyone went to work everyday and worked on maintenance, training, and other things. The local community is extremely loyal to Toyota. Union organization attempts have failed. This experience is a marked difference to some of the Indiana cities that rely on plants of the D3.
…and, when was the last time GM offered to buy back a truck (or car) with obvious defects?
Ford?
Chrysler? Chrysler wouldn’t even make good on fast-rust Aspen/Volare fenders, until the government MADE them do it. Buy them back? What are you smoking?
Not Honda or – according to your source – Toyota. That’s part of the difference; whether the company recognizes an obligation to its customers after the sale.
Um, Ford did by back Windstars due to rear beam axle rust issues.
Sure the Toyota Frame rust problem was made up by the internet they even went so far to fabricate a letter from Toyota to dealers. http://www.showstop.org/images/truck/rust_warranty/dealer-communication.pdf and instructions on how to do an inspection http://www.showstop.org/images/truck/rust_warranty/vehicle-inspection.pdf. I like the official company line to tell customers. Note they fact that they don’t want the trucks to be placed on a frame engaging lift, only a drive on alignment type lift and then only after an pre-inspection.
Note that just covers the first batch that took a couple of years of lawsuits before they agreed to recall the trucks. The next batch just have the crossmember that holds the spare tire fall off. In this case the internet got really brave and hacked Toyota’s website to post this recall notice. http://pressroom.toyota.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=1817 Hidden in that one is the issue with the rear brake valve tending to rust and cause a leak that leads to loss of rear brakes but just like accelerator pedal issues in the trucks Toyota did not consider it a safety related issue to avoid having to notify NHTSA.
In many ways the crossmember issue is scarier because to replace it they use a jack to spread the rear of the frame an inch or two to get the replacement crossmember in there. They could have done like Freightliner did with their suspension crossmember that is prone to cracking and create a multi-piece service part that can be installed without spreading the frame rail.
I will give them credit for the fact that on the trucks that they did buy back they paid 1.5 times the KBB retail value. But only after denying that there was a problem for years and facing lawsuits. The fact of the matter is Toyota is the slimiest of auto mfgs out there but they do a really good job at maintaining their image.
Here is the good part if you want don’t want to read through the whole thing. It is important to note that this is NOT a recall or a Special Service Program (IE Toyota’s famous Secret Service Programs) It is a Customer Support Program providing an enhancement of warranty coverage.
Edit: apparently I put too many links in the first post so it is awaiting moderation, so hopefully Paul will come along soon and approve it.
…which tells me that the problem isn’t as serious as ones that result in ordered recalls. ESPECIALLY since the NHTSA would LOVE to destroy Toyota, and vindicate them when they jumped on the fraudulent acceleration story.
Let me tell you about “slimiest” Toyota, and how they “rip off” their customers. My mother went into the garage one day, with her original Camry…turned the key…and all she got was a grinding, ripping noise. The car was four years old and out of warranty by that time.
She called the dealership
(she’s a 60-something widow by that time; she doesn’t want to comparison shop with Denny’s Fast-Fix Auto Repair and Notary Public, Herbalife Distributor)
and they, the dealership, sends a tow truck. Hauls it to the Toyota dealer.
Two days later she shows up to sign the estimate. How much, she asks.
No charge, says the service writer.
What’s that?
We checked factory bulletins said the service writer, and there was a problem with misaligned starters on this model. So the factory is paying for replacement. We put on a new starter, a new flywheel ring gear, removed and reinstalled the engine and transaxle.
It was at that point that Toyota won a customer for life. It was too bad for them she would only buy one more; but there was NO question what it would be.
They were recalls ordered by the NHSTA Toyota just tried to pass it off as not being an ordered recall.
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/ACM12806482/RCAK-09V444-1346.pdf
There is a reason that Toyota recently had to pay record fines and that was because they tried to sweep safety defects under the rug instead of report them as required by law.
@JPT: Your mother’s experience with that particular Toyota dealer’s service department is just that. Believe me when I say, I’m glad she had a good one. The one I worked for in Georgia was about as slimy as they come. I’ve posted about my experiences there before, but we must remember that these folks are all independent businesses and can run their business any way they see fit. Had she a different dealer with a different mindset, I think your opinion would be a lot different.
My mother’s experience with her local Honda dealer was the opposite of your mother’s experience. For years before we took her off the road, she only drove about 5,000 miles per year, but she maintained her car rather well. However, that dealer had her bamboozled a few times, convincing her to have diagnostic tests and other service items done that a car with her mileage and condition would never need. I took to asking my (non-mechanical) brother to go to the dealer with her (she was convinced by them no one else could service the car properly…) to try and keep the shenanigans to a minimum. It worked, for the most part.
There were times I would get panicked phone calls from him asking me what to do in a certain situation (as I lived 6 hours away), but it all worked out. This same brother was the recipient of a very well maintained 2001 Honda Civic which has served him pretty well for the last 6 years. Of course, his luck with it has been pretty poor with the car, but he’s hard on equipment.
My experiences working in two different dealers over 10 years apart has taught me one thing: It’s the dealer that makes the difference. Some are great, some suck, but in the end they represent the company. You takes your chances…
“Your mother’s experience with that particular Toyota dealer’s service department is just that. Believe me when I say, I’m glad she had a good one. The one I worked for in Georgia was about as slimy as they come.”
I’m sure there’s truth in that. But I do know Toyota wasn’t shy about whipping their dealers into shape – if they knew of a problem and their regional people saw the need.
That dealer I referenced was a family-owned local chain; and their Ford and Chevy stores had been investigated and charged for repair fraud prior to that. I was actually concerned about my mother’s buying from them; but it turned out well.
Nothing like the threat of losing a money-minting operation, to make the owner and GM get old-time religgion.
So obviously then, if Toyotas rusted badly then, they must still rust badly today right?
Because cars never improve?
This is why I wont buy a Mazda or a Honda, I just dont trust rotary engines or that CVCC and Hondamatic.
What you are really highlighting is a phenomenon that GM used to its advantage for decades – if a car company doesn’t anger its current customers, they will most likely come back for their next vehicle without paying too much heed to the competition.
For decades, people bought one GM car after another without seriously checking out the competition, because they were satisfied with what they were getting for their money. (It helped that GM did a far better job than Chrysler in avoiding really wacky or ugly styling, and that its quality control was more consistent than that of Ford or Chrysler.)
GM began to bleed customers in the 1980s, when it drastically revamped its vehicle line-up and corporate structure (the Roger Smith reorganization) that caused quality to plummet. It also failed to update its passenger cars to reflect changing priorities among younger (at that time) buyers.
(Note that GM’s sales of light trucks have held up over the years. That is because the priorities of light truck buyers haven’t shifted as much as the priorities of car buyers since 1970, and GM has also done a good job of paying attention to detail with these vehicles.)
Many customers went to Toyota and Honda, have remained satisfied, and so saw no reason to shop other brands.
We have two cars – a 2003 Accord EX four cylinder with 191,000 miles, and a 2004 Ford Focus SE with 160,000 miles. Both have been reliable (note that “reliable” isn’t synonymous “perfect”).
And, yes, both have been superior in that department to the various GM and Chrysler and European cars owned by friends and family.
People aren’t going to leave Honda and Toyota unless they really mess up repeatedly. It took decades of GM misfires and quality problems before the corporation had to file for bankruptcy. Toyota and Honda have a long way to go before they equal GM’s record in that department.
Are new GM cars better? They seem to be. But we’re happy with our Honda and Ford (and we are also happy with the respective dealer that services each one), so why switch? People do not have an obligation to include a GM vehicle on their shopping list every time they buy a new car.
It’s no different from my parents automatically looking at new Oldsmobile Delta 88s every time the old one hit 100,000 miles, without even considering the Ford or Chrysler competition.
I’d have to disagre that the priorities of the truck buyer haven’t changed much since the 70’s. In the 70’s plain Jane trucks were the king, it wasn’t that common to opt for the nicer trim levels or even 4wd. Nowadays the majority of trucks are loaded up with luxury features and 4wd.
A 2013 pickup truck is the same basic vehicle as its 1973 counterpart, just with a nicer (broughamier?) interior and more luxury options.
The majority of passenger car buyers, meanwhile, simply have no interest in a car that rides and handles like a 1970s Detroit land yacht, looks as “bloated” as the land yacht or offers the same level of space (in)efficiency.
Compare a 2013 Accord, Camry, Fusion or Malibu to a 1973 Caprice, LTD, or Cutlass Supreme. There has been a much bigger bigger shift in engineering priorities and design for passenger cars from 1973 through today than for pickups over that same time period.
Not at all, even though they still have rugged construction and full frames and new truck is a space ship compared to a truck from 1973.
If you think a 73 F100 and new F150 share anything other than the Ford badge you haven’t driven a truck of either generation.
When I sold GMC’s we would occasionally get a 1973-1987 vintage truck in on trade, and they drove well, but compared to the 1988-1998 vintage full size GM truck, they were way outdated, same change when the new trucks came out in 1999.
What you are describing is progress through constant refinement of the basic concept, not a dramatic change in the concept itself.
A 2013 domestic pickup truck is a body-on-frame vehicle with rear-wheel-drive or four-wheel drive, usually powered by a V-8. It has an independent front suspension and solid rear axle.
Which describes most 1973 pickups.
The 2013 Accord, Camry and Fusion are unit-body vehicles with front-wheel-drive layouts powered by a four or V-6. They have independent suspension front and rear.
Compare this to a 1973 Caprice or LTD, which had body-on-frame construction, rear-wheel-drive layout and a solid rear axle, usually powered by a V-8 engine.
If your down to that, then all cars are the same, because, hey, 4 wheels and an engine,right?
Whats a dramatic change for a truck, putting the bed in the front and the engine on the roof, it has to pretty much keep to a certain layout.
Brakes, suspension, steering, have all undergone significant upgrades and changes.
Do priorities change with age? ABSOLUTELY they do. To a young person, a car represents independence. To an older person, that independence is assured; and at times a personal car can be a hindrance. Better to fly or take the train and rent a car as needed.
A young person wants to impress others…with his clothes, his hair…and yes, his car. A mature person has his identity pretty firmed up…he’s the same person in a suit or dungarees, in his own car or in a Rent-A-Wreck beater. AND…he knows an old fart in a Corvette, is still an old fart.
Thats an awefully big blanket statement to make. I don’t believe you can make those assumptions based on age. Typically a conservative person was pretty darn concervative when they were young too.
It’s an awfully well-established pattern. How many young people get excited at saving 35 percent off the price of a lunch or dinner (senior discount or Early Bird)? How many kids look for LONG LIFE as a criterion as to whether to buy something? How many consider VALUE?
Damned few. That’s why hundred-dollar sneakers, Levis® brand jeans, and Corvettes and Mustangs are what kids buy, want to buy, or aspire to.
Kids don’t buy Impalas. Or Camrys. Or save to buy things with cash.
Old people don’t buy flashy cars from dubious manufacturers…well, a few old farts with too much money and too much libido do; people who have to manage their resources make conservative choices.
I’ve changed…drastically…since I was a kid. But this isn’t about me; what I’ve found is that my path is more common than not. That old fuddy-duddy who was my old man, once hiked the Rockies and built his own first home. That frump who was my mother…I found a picture of her in her youth, on the back of a Harley-Davidson with some rake.
People do change.
Not everybody. Know what the first car I picked out myself was? A 1999 Volvo S70 AWD sedan. In gold. No Mustang, RX-7 or Integra. I was 23 at the time.
Everybodys different; to each their own.
Compare the specifications of the 2013 Honda Accord and Ford Fusion to those of the 1973 Chevrolet Impala and Ford LTD, and then drive both sets of cars.
I think most people would see that dramatic differences in engineering and design philosophy separate the 2013 cars from the 1973 cars.
The change represents more than the advances in technology and refinement that have driven the development of pickups over that same period of time.
Toyota has been galvanising cars for over 20 years and just like my galvanised Citroen will not rust I feel your rust information is out of date literally nothing rusts here anymore, anti corrosion laws were introduced in Europe many years ago in the wake of Alfa Romeo biodegradable cars falling apart. Surely this technology has made it to the US.
My folks have had three Camrys since ’85. The first one replaced a Corona and their current ’05 is a doppelgänger for the feature car, save for the grill and taillights.
As much as I dislike that horrible beige/gold color that my parents actually went out of their way to get, I’ve slowly grown to respect that car, to the point that I’ve considered buying it off them whenever they finally trade it. It’s boring to look at and numb to drive (and the side mirrors really suck), but it’s comfortable, quiet, gets excellent mileage and nearly bulletproof.
I had to make frequent 10 hour interstate runs for a couple of years, and the string of vehicles I owned at the time were all uniquely ill-equipped for the task. I borrowed Dad’s Camry for one of those trips…and it was perfect. It’s built for mindless slogs on broken highways. I really began to appreciate this car after that. Naturally, after changing jobs/locations and transitioning to a 60 mile roundtrip commute on a piece of crap highway, I bought a firm-riding German car. Because I’m an idiot.
I gotta laugh at that last…I’ve been there.
Now, at last, I’ve gotten the right car together with the right commute. I drive 35 miles to work, on good roads, half freeway, half two-lane country…
…and the Toyota econobox is the perfect vehicle. Quiet, comfortable, does it with no stress and 40 mpg. Who needs 4wd? I’m happy with aggressive snow tires…I don’t even hear them inside.
Honestly, that has always been my major gripe with all of the three Camry’s I owned (#3 I still own) but I don’t care for the power mirrors. They have never adjusted very well. I always have to put my hand on ’em when I need to adjust. Otherwise great cars. My 1999 XLE passenger mirror is the most especially annoying. It seems to go the opposite direction of what I push on the button.
I could see myself owning one of these. In fact, I have tried to acquire one on more than one occasion. The only reason it didn’t happen was because the dealer and I could never agree on price.
The idea of a quiet, comfortable car that is efficient and easy to service really appeals to me. Believe it or not, those qualities are what drew me to both my Escape, and my Alero. I know, the Alero is not considered a paragon of quality, but it’s quiet, comfortable, efficient and easy to service. To my eyes it’s attractive, and that’s all that matters to me.
A mid ’00’s Camry or Accord are the types of cars that I like because they are good cars for the long term. Cars with sporting aspirations are great for a time, but at the end of a long day, or for a long trip, nothing beats having a comfortable, reliable friend, if you would, to depend on, and for many, these cars fit the bill just fine.
I agree completely and so do the 600,000 or so buyers how plunk they cash on the hood for these two models every year.
Of course, I am deluded as Japanese cars are made out of flattened beer cans. They only reason I buy them is my drinking water is poisoned.
All that ratings agency stuff is junk science like Evolution, Climate Change and Obama’s birth certificate.Japanese cars can’t go 500 feet without breaking and I know it’s true because my idol Rush told me so and he is so smart I believe everything he says.
I am very happy that Glenn Beck won’t allow anything but GM cars in his new Utopia, Independence USA. I can’t want to move there…but I guess I can’t because I am a terrorist. All Canadians are terrorists.
Personally, I am sure Japanese cars are just a flash in the pan. They’ll never catch on.
Canadians are terrorists? Glenn Beck has a utopian state? Rush Limbaugh is my idol?
I must have been living under a rock 😉
Seriously, I have owned many midsize sedans, and I’ve found a lot to like about most of them. The Camry is the best balance for me with regards to economy, size, comfort, etc.
I had an 07 Impala that was a very nice car except for the menacingly large steering wheel. I sold it at 150,000mi in good shape.
I would consider a Mercury if that brand were still in existence.
Funny how a “soulless car” can rile up such emotion on the internet…
“Funny how a “soulless car” can rile up such emotion on the internet…”
Yeah…when a large number of people, here and in real-life, appreciate it – because it does what a car is supposed to do. Move people, pleasantly and reliably.
And because various fanbois, agitators, spammers cannot abide that. To the point where they have to make up stories to prove their fact-free points.
Its also funny that people cant stand someone who has a different opinion of theirs.
“Move people pleasantly and reliably”
Wow, such lofty goals could NEVER be acheived by another car maker, I mean the wheels fall right off GM cars on the lot, right before their Vega engines magically explode and they rust right in half.
No way you had a GM car go 150,000 miles, impossible, maybe 150 or 15, but every GM ever made is nothing but pure crap and every Toyota ever made is vision of perfection.
The term is “strawman.” Make up a parody of the opponents argument (which here is not intended as an argument, just a differing view) and then demolish that parody…like attacking a strawman.
Nobody here said, or intended to say, that all Toyotas are perfect and have always been perfect. I’ve said the opposite. Toyotas were so lousy on their introduction in 1959, they pulled back for another five years. And they rusted horrifically in the 1970s as they expanded from the West Coast.
But they learned. While Government Motors was playing “How can we fool them TODAY?” Toyota was trying to learn how to actually satisfy buyers. And they did learn; and they did satisfy.
Do you really think millions of owners, most of them former owners of Garbage Motors products, can be magically brainwashed into thinking a piece of troublesome garbage is a reliable car?
My experience as an auto technician is what influenced my decision to buy Toyotas. I’ve consistently had good experiences with them.
Len dont get me wrong Toyota can make a bloody good car and for some wierd reason they once cared about the New Zealand market enough to let a former race car drive Chris Amon tune their cars for NZ roads and when the 3litre wide body Camry first came out it landed here my sister and BIL had a new one and loved it, That car went like a bullet but it couldnt corner with the Aussie competition but it was a great car 240kmh on a flat road is haulin ass for 1990. However my sister loved it so much she bought another a 94 from Australia the world consumption Camry the one you got, Like Chalk and cheese my friend the first one was much much better. My BIL is in the car game he gets to play in all sorts of stuff and can drive some he wasnt impressed with the newer one. The 90/91s are hard to get my mates one was an end of life car he ran it past 400k kms and even then it went hard but when new plugleads cost $250 and it needs a new windshield rarity can be a pain
The Camry is an appliance as much as a car, and it does exactly what a well-made appliance is supposed to do – work in a quiet, unobtrusive manner with little fuss, day in and day out. I’ve driven them as rentals, and it’s a car I’m always happy to get. A Camry is quiet, comfortable, roomy, gets great mileage and gets us around with no trouble or drama. And most of the time that’s all we need.
Plat Gray 02 V6 SE – 144K – the majority doing windshield time. Leather, moonie roof, & stock GPS, heated seats. Soldiers on, reliable as a hammer and thanks to the internet most problems are quickly solved. 22 city & 27-28 highway average 24. Would like a new car, test drove many but none fit my 6’6″ frame like this glove.
Soul less…I think not…quite happy to my ride is considered a Curbside Classic.
What I love about Camrys and Corrollas is you can slap the crap out of them and the’yre like puppies….they want to keep playing. I rented a few of each in the last 2 years and walked away impressed with how competently they got the job done of transportation.
Soulless perhaps, but highly competent. If I was in the market for a 4 door sedan I would gravitate to the Accord though – you can’t beat their 4 cyl for responsiveness.
It’s no longer a question of the Fusion and Malibu being the Camry or Accord’s equal…perhaps they are, or in some ways even superior. Detroit napped heartily in the ’80s and ’90s, and Japan slid right in with highly competent, reliable cars.
I don’t believe Detroit will ever get that or the compact sedan market back. Thank God they stopped the reliability hemorrhaging enough to salvage the pickup and even SUV/CUV markets. But they can’t afford to fall asleep at the wheel again.
The two major knocks on this car: a) it’s narcoleptically unremarkable and b) ‘I have a very, very strong opinion about it.’ Puzzling.
I’ve always appreciated these–this generation in particular–for being soothing, comfortable, thought-free A-to-B transportation, just like it says on the (nondescript) tin.
The V6 has more grunt than many would expect, but I think these cars are best appreciated with the Four and plastic hubcaps. There’s a warm-blanket quality about settling into one from the rental counter after an eight-hour flight.
I also sort of respect the fact that the people who buy these know that they are making next to no statement about their identity, politics, youth, masculinity, etc with the car they drive, and are comfortable with that.
As a result, I think some people tend to project onto them (and the car) their own strong feelings about the opinions and positions of those who ‘follow the uninformed masses’, whatever those feelings might be.
Its amazing how people start pointing fingers and saying how people who disagree with them are “making up stories”, when the stories can easily be found. It is also amazing that someone does not consider currency manipulation a form of bailout to make a company more competative.
Its also how people make blanket statements about “old people” and claim that they are right because the no longer care about what kind of car they drive so anyone who does must have too much money and too much libido….
Notice how once side has to take shots at the other to make a point? Any psychology major could pick this whole conversation apart very quickly. Nothing like claiming your values are the values of everyone in your age group and demographic.
It’s amazing, how people will deny demographics and statistics.
I’d be happy to believe any that you have to show. I’d bet a weeks paycheck that the average Camry buyer is not an enthusiast…and that is ok.
I have a hard time believeing that Phil Hill (drove, RIP), Richard Petty or James Garner drive Camrys and don’t value some automotive entertainment beyond basic transportation.
Enthusiasts tend to be more forgiving of major problems with their vehicles than non-enthusiast drivers. That fact that Toyotas can survive abuse, neglect and the least amount of maintenance possible is a testament to the company’s engineering abilities and proven superior quality control.
I’m also missing which GM vehicles are more exciting or entertaining than the Camry. The Malibu? The LaCrosse? The Impala? I highly doubt it. Would the late Phil Hill have driven around in an Impala? Maybe if that had been the only car available from Avis, but, otherwise, no.
Commodores can be entertaining GM build those and the performance models can leave a M BMW behind or you can get the same powertrain in a Corvette or a camaro or for that matter a Cadillac at your local store
“I have a hard time believeing that Phil Hill (drove, RIP), Richard Petty or James Garner drive Camrys and don’t value some automotive entertainment beyond basic transportation.”
I can’t speak for them; but Dan Gurney had a regular Q&A column in Popular Mechanics in the 1970s. He admitted to driving a full-size American car with automatic transmission. He didn’t specify the make, probably because he didn’t want it turned into an unpaid endorsement; but one reader asked him if he preferred manual or automatic, power or regular steering, and how he held the wheel when on the highway.
I don’t have statistics handy. I could look, but why? The Camry doesn’t sell to the young; the Boss 302 or the Screaming Chicken Firebird before it, doesn’t/didn’t sell to mature owners. For reasons obvious to most people.
I doubt you’ll find tricked-up high-school racers in the garage of professional racecar drivers. They get it out of their systems on the track; and – almost certainly – to them it’s a job. One they may or may not love; but off-time is time OFF.
I speak as someone with one of those “dream jobs.” I’m a locomotive engineer; and while some people spend all their free time going to look at trains, read about trains photograph trains…they’re about the last thing I want to think about after logging off for the day.
http://autos.aol.com/article/2012-toyota-camry/
“The Camry has the oldest age demographic in the industry for mid-sized sedans, at 60 years old. The average age of sedan buyers is 57 — but that figure is somewhat distorted by the fact that Camry is such a large part of that segment. The automaker wants to bring the age down to around 55, but if it’s successful, the average age of the segment will probably come down, too.”
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/16774146/ns/business-autos/t/camry-set-get-old-stuffy/
““Camry buyers are on average in their low to mid-50s, and if Toyota doesn’t change the trajectory … the Camry will become the Oldsmobile or the Buick of 20 years from now,” he said (John Wolkonowicz, senior auto analyst for North America at Global Insight). “Their customers will be the oldest Americans, who are dying out of the market every day. Toyota is adamant that they are not going to let this happen, but they may be powerless to change it.””
Ok now go look up Corvette, Camaro, Cadillac, Buick, Lincoln, Lexus…
I’ll bet they are all round that age or higher. Not really suppporting evidence in your argument.
I remember that the statistics on the final Firebird Trans Ams where 58 year old males who were college educated and had a gross household income of over 90K a year…
http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/automotive-news-industry-future-vehicle-discussion-13/buyer-demographics-4th-gen-334361/
Brangeta
Registered User
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 5,544
Here are the exact demographics. You’re just lucky I’m an advertising major .
1996:
Camaro:
* Median age is 35 years
* Household income of $55,000
* Appeals to young singles and females
* About 50% college educated.
Camaro Z28:
* Domestic-committed loyalists
* Older males looking for a muscle car with a high-performance image
* Predominantly college graduates
* Import-minded singles and young married couples
* Ages from under 35 to between 35 and 54 years
* Looking for exterior styling, quality/reliability/dependability, price and safety features.
1997:
Camaro and Camaro RS:
* Median age is 35 years
* Household income of $55,000
* Appeals to young, single males and females (50/50)
* About 54% college-educated.
Camaro Z28:
* Domestic-committed loyalists
* Older males looking for a muscle car with a high- performance image
* Predominantly college graduates
* Import-minded singles and young married couples
* Ages from under 35 to between 35 and 54 years
* Looking for exterior styling, quality/reliability/ dependability, price and safety features.
2001:
Customer Profile
The Chevrolet Camaro and Camaro Z28 provide Coupe and Convertible model choices that appeal to rear-wheel-drive, V6 or V8, car-loving customers desiring attention-getting power and style.
Buyer Demographics
Camaro/Camaro Z28
Median age: 36 years/41 years
Median household income: $55,000/$65,000
College graduates: 45%/50%
Principal driver (male/female): 40%/60%/70%/30%
Competition
Camaro
• Ford Mustang
• Honda Prelude
• Hyundai Tiburon
• Mercury Cougar
• Mitsubishi Eclipse
• Toyota Celica
Camaro Z28
• Ford Mustang GT and Mustang Cobra
• Toyota Celica GT
Pretty different demographic. And that’s for NEW cars – not all young people who want one can afford new. So that’s at the top end.
Interestingly, the source DIDN’T cite the Camry as competition for the Camaro. Wonder why?
HUH? What does the prove?
I just have a couple of comments….how is the Camry such a large part of the segment?
You are not comparing current numbers…
You are an advertising major? Does that mean you are still in your early 20’s but are making assumptions on how your auto outlook will be in your late 50’s early 60’s?
I would think that by now you’ve learned in statistics classes that you can make anything look how you want it to by using statistics..just saying.
Try taking a psychology class about human development and then we’ll talk.
My only stand that I think I’ve made clear is that someone who buys a Camry was never a “car” person to begin with. Someone who bought cars with souls and personality in the past are most likely not going to settle for a Camry when they hit 60 if they are still car enthusiasts… You can’t explain away the great number of older people who are in the antique, hotrodding, muscle car and sports car hobby…
We may be arguing different points. I have to admit, I like the back and forth, please don’t take offense to anything I’ve written.
It was pretty plain I copied that from a Camaro discussion board.
I have nothing to do with advertising. But you insist, against all logic and evidence, that old people want Camaros more than kids and only brain-damaged zombies hypnotized by Toyota advertising, want a stupid, boring, rusty, unreliable Camry instead of the REALLY GOOD stuff Government Motors cranks out.
The facts disprove this every step of the way.
Psychology class on human development? I had a minor in Psych…major was Political Science. I took Psych as a minor because it was falling-off-a-log simple…a sham science led by charlatans and morons.
They can say what they want…three-quarters of what they assert is politically-driven untruths. Which have nothing to do with cars; but your appeal to “authority” there is unpersuasive.
Ok now you just sound like a beligerant ass.
You abviously aren’t reading anything I have to say so a friendly back and forth is pointless.
I never said the Camry was a bad car…the truck frames have rust problems (FACT). Some of the engines have oiling problems (FACT). All companies have had engine problems in the past (Porshe IMS, Toyota Celica 1.8 going boom, Ford 3.8 blowing head gaskets, GM intake manifold problems) so its a moot point. They are not the end all be all of reliability that people think they are. Compared to 80’s domestics they are better, compared to todays domestics they are equal, or in some cases not quite up to snuff anymore.
I thought you were and advertising student…that was your claim..
If it makes you feel better then you win in your little part of the world. We disagree, you are right and I am wrong and none of my personal experience has anything to do with it. You can speak for all 50plus baby boomers and what they way. In fact, they should get a free Camry with the AARP membership because that is what they want anyway, I mean they buy 200K Camrys a year out of the 1 million mid size cars that are sold every year anyway.
You win I suck.
thanks.
Camrys are hard to love in any kind of lustful way, but one of my lasting impressions comes from a trip in Cambodia about 5 years ago. We had driven to the Cambodian border from Bangkok, and had to transfer to a Cambodian taxi for the 150 km drive to Angkor. The road was pretty bad at that time, a mixture of sand and hard washboard, but fleets of taxis were ferrying hordes of tourists at speeds that made you hold on to anything within reach.
Virtually every taxi on the road was a mid-90’s Camry, covered in red dust and going like hell.
I currently own a 2002 Camry LE with 161,000 miles with AT. It was given to my wife when we were in grad school and I drive it on my 60 mile round trip commute. Besides regular maintenance, I’ve changed the window regulator. My average mpg for 2013 is 28.5.
Is it sexy? No. Does it handle like it’s on rails? No. Do I miss my Alfa Spyder and Mk I & II GTI? Yes. But do I like having $ in the bank? Hell yeah! I would love to own another fun car but in the meantime, I’ve learned to appreciate the Camry. It’s a great car for getting me around comfortable and economically.
Even as a rental car, the Camry is a bore.
We used to own one of these. It was a 2004 LE in silver. We drove it until 2009, when it was involved in a severe accident on the highway.
Zombiemobile.
“…I will give credit to Toyota for one thing: The chrome badges and strip above the license plate do enhance the looks quite a bit…”
Ironically, 2004 was the year when Ford, in the decontenting of the Taurus that began after 2002, OMITTED the chrome strip above its license plate, making it body-colored and cheaper-looking.
The older I get, the more boring and predictable I want my cars to be.
Amen. My wife’s Camry is almost 3 yrs. old with about 30K miles on it. Safe, practical, and predictable are often words I use to describe the car.
So, just looking over the Camry-vs-Lumina discussion above, and on all the W-body threads, the impression I get from the early GM10s’ defenders is that it really was the ultimate GM “Good Used Car”. They may not have had the style, refinement and quality *feel* that someone spending 30 grand in today’s money is looking for, but they were cheap to buy and keep running once they hit the 5-10 year mark.
That was, however, a problem for GM and an opportunity for everyone else that Toyota and Honda took (and Ford, until a styling blunder with the oval Taurus followed by decontenting knocked them down a league) since they’re in the business of selling *new* cars and found themselves relying on low-profit fleet sales to move the metal.
I rode in my first Camry the other night, somehow I had just never had the opportunity to ride in one (not that I was actively trying to). Technically it was a Solara but same car. I used to wonder why these are universally mocked by the enthusiast community but I completely understand now. There’s just nothing remotely impressive about these cars besides long term durability. The one thing that surprised me the most was the suspension. I mean yeah, the ride was smooth on flat roads but anything close to a large bump seemed to unsettle the suspension into just delivering a big *thump* into the cabin. The body motions were just a little bit better than my friend’s Park Avenue, but I would much prefer the ride of that car. That’s not to say it was harsh or anything, but it seemed like the engineers thought potholes and large bumps just didn’t exist. Maybe I’m just spoiled by the larger cars I’ve ridden in but I just wasn’t impressed by anything in that car, but I guess that’s kind of the point. Tbh I’m not sure how people can drive these things daily. I know, I know, the all-important Toyota reliability is there but it’s just such a coma-like experience to be even riding in a Camry, I can’t imagine driving it.
This and the next generation Camrys became the #1 fleet vehicle for Russian government organizations & agencies, essentially replacing GAZ Volga in this role. And I can understand why.
Usually they are considered too expensive for the taxicab service, but no further than today I rode in a Camry taxi, probably a more recent model. It was quiet, smooth riding (much more so than my last sedan, a 2009 Ford Mondeo), and yes, it was also rather bland and boring, inside and out – even to my rather conservative taste. Which is often not a bad thing, really.
Six or seven years ago, when I was in the market for a large sedan (mid-size, in American terms), I would have gladly bought a Camry of the same year over the Mondeo, with its “sporty, youthful style”, if I had the money, lol. But not only was the Camry significantly more expensive initially, but they also depreciate much, much more slowly.
I have to add that the Camry Solara is still an attractive car to me and from time to time I think of buying one, but keep in mind that the market for large coupes is very slim where I live (VERY).
The featured Camry is still with us. Its My sister and brother-in-law’s car, and its got about 160k on it now. Other than some exhaust issues, its been completely trouble free, which will probably surprise no one. They are currently looking for a newer car and are not sure if they want to keep the Camry or not.
I saw a first gen Camry this afternoon, the 5 door lift back no less (a Kia Stinger 35 years ahead of its time? Well, not exactly). It really looked dated cruising along in a sea of aerodynamic sedans and crossovers. But the third gen, and subsequent generations still blend in quite well in today’s streetscape.
Is your “Same as it ever was” line a deliberation allusion to Talking Heads’ “Once in a Lifetime”?
Yup!
On September 15, 2001, I purchased a new Sienna that I still own today. There are 165,000 miles on the odometer. And just like your Camry, this van has never stranded me. I have done all maintenance myself including timing belt. But the most notable fact remains that my 2001 Sienna was manufactured much better with better quality raw materials that my 2007 Lexus RX350. You couldn’t give me another Lexus!
Years later I like these much more than I did when they were brand new. The nose took some time for me to get used to. I have never owned this particular model Camry, but had one gen 3 and one gen 4 back to back. After my 4 hit around 245k, I said goodbye and bought a low mileage 2004 Avalon XLS.
I have driven a few relatives gen 5’s at times though and I do think they are a good effort. Being 6’5″ I liked the higher feeling seating and open greenhouse on these. Some did complain about having to reach to get at the dash controls, but with my long arms I never had that issue. See many of them beat to hell nowadays, but then I realize how time flies and it’s now been almost 20 years since the initial introduction of these gen 5 models.
A good, but perhaps bland effort in a key segment. No nonsense transportation, but that’s what I like about them.