(first posted 10/26/2011. Photos posted at the CC Cohort by Bryce)
Looking at Australian cars makes me feel slightly woozy, like I’ve just come down with a case of twenty-four hour amnesia. It’s like waking up in the morning and asking your life-partner of several decades: “you look so familiar, but what did you say your name was?” Or “I know your name, but you don’t look like her”. Perhaps that’s how a big chunk of the population sees cars. Like when a crime involves a car, and the eye witness describes it as “an older model sedan”. So helpful. Believe me, if you drove this Statesman around town here, you wouldn’t get a lot of looks or comments. And if so, they’d be “cool old Chevy, man”. Well, the DeVille badge might throw a few. Maybe this would be the perfect bank heist get-away car. “It was..a ..a…”
Australian cars were always hybrids: a mish-mash of American cast-offs, design cue, engineering, or just meddling, combined with a healthy dose of local Aussie know-how. And I hardly claim to be an expert; every time I think I have it figured out, something throws me for a loop. Like this DeVille; I mistakenly thought it was the top of the line of the Statesman family.
Silly me. Turns out the Statesman Caprice (above) is safely one notch above the DeVille. Ok; now I’m able to sympathize a little more with those folks who don’t while their hours away at sites like CC. And it just goes to show that when you export names overseas, you never know what they’ll choose to do with them.And to add a bit of more complexity, the Statesman was technically not a Holden, but its own brand, at least until 1990.
Of course, Ford created a bit of confusion too in Australia, and if you want the whole story, ateupwithmotor has a superb two-part piece on the long and complicated life of the Ozzie Falcon. Until he does an equally thorough one on the Holdens, we’ll just have to muddle through in our cloud of ignorance. So how exactly did the Statesman DeVille end up being below the Caprice? What’s wrong with you Aussies? Must be from all that walking around upside down.
The Statesman appeared in 1971, as its own upscale brand, and replaced the very tail-happy Holden Brougham (above). Yes, to my knowledge, America was only able to successfully export the Great Brougham Epoch to Australia, although they tried pretty hard with their European operations.
The 1971 Statesman (above) was a nice styling job, incorporating a number of GM-ish themes in a rather harmonious package.
It has a helping of big Opel,
Along with a pinch or two of 1971 Olds 88. And you’ll probably find some other ingredients from the GM pantry. Anyway, the Statesman would have made a nice basis for the coming Seville.
Back to Australia. The Statesman was based on the also-new Holden HQ series, which included this Kingswood. Haven’t I heard that before? The Statesman sat on the longer wheelbase station wagon chassis, and had some distinctive sheet metal, especially at the rear.
The 1974 refresh (HJ) included the very Chevrolesque front end that is still very much apparent in our featured car, which to the best of my limited ability I peg as a HZ, from the 1977 -1980 era. I could very well be wrong.
Where the Statesman really diverges from the more predictable GM-family look is in its rear end. Now that looks very home-grown, almost home-baked. And not at all what was being done at the GM Design Mothership. Did Bill Mitchell have to sign off on these cars?
It reminds me of one car in particular.
Anyway, the DeVille was the top level Statesman from the get-go, replacing the Brougham. And in classic name-debasement style, the Caprice came along and muscled the DeVille aside for top honors in 1974.
The Statesman DeVille interior looks appealing enough, and certainly more GM than Studebaker. But check out the emergency brake; no flimsy foot operated pedal for the Australians. Never know when one might want to do a very quick U-turn. Don’t forget that the term “hoon” originated with them.
We certainly can’t ignore what’s under the hood, since it creates a similar response as the car: haven’t I seen you before? Well, no, actually, although according to one source, the Holden 253/308 V8 was designed by a couple of ex-Pontiac engineers, and supposedly most resembles it in certain basic architecture. But it’s a unique engine, and lighter than a Chevy sbc. And one that created quite legend for itself in racing. And I suspect Bryce will give us a few opinions on it.
Like the mothership back home, Holden was putting a lot of attention to handling in the mid-seventies. The HZ benefited from a complete chassis make-over, with the familiar RTS (radial tuned suspension) moniker. They at least got that name right. This was part of a major GM push, and it certainly put them ahead of the competition at home, where Ford just wallowed along in that decade.
The HZ was replaced by the WB series 1980, which featured a new C-pillar with additional window. And a pretty posh front end, that looks less Caprice and more Lincoln. What’s going on here? By 1984, it was all over for the big Holdens, and the smaller Commodore took over.
The Commodore was part of a downsizing in response to the energy crisis, and was based on a mish-mash of the Opel Rekord and Commodore, with another healthy dose of Aussie engineering to make it all work in their conditions and with their engines. That leaves the Statesman in a similar position as the big ’71 – ’75 US GM cars; relics of another time, although perhaps with fonder memories than the more familiar Caprice and DeVille of the era.
The back end of that HZ Caprice looks very Chrysler Cordoba like or maybe Dodge Magnum. But Since the Caprice was pre Cordoba/ Magnum I guess the ChryCo guys cribbed the Aussies.
The HZ reminds me a lot of the X body Seville, just a bit less boxy.
My memory of Holden, from my month-long stay in Perth in the mid 1990s…was…exactly as you describe. Like someone took a bunch of O-Scale plastic model cars, heated them up, and then, with great talent, reformatted them. I remember sedans that looked suspiciously like early 1970s Chevelles, with a dab of Pontiac; and a LOT of “utes” that looked like rolling mockups for mid-1970s El Caminos.
But the genes were there – no way not to notice, they were a GM product. Compare that to the Fords…if there was family resemblance, I didn’t notice it
The only familiar faces on the roads of Western Australia (that’s the state name; “state” is the political subdivision in Aussieland) were Volkswagens and Jeeps. There were the Japanese marques, also, but similar to their home market; less so to their US-Export variety. At the time, the SJ Wagoneer was a popular ride in some circles…a reverse mirror-image of its Stateside cousin.
Good look at an often-overlooked venue.
These ride on a 70/71 Camaro floorpan with ahead of the axle steering box. Thanx for the understeer.Had you looked under the hood of those ozzy Fords you may have recognized them the shock tower suspension is a giveaway
Were These closer to what we got in 1977 from GM?
I like the squared off look, but the face of the 71-75 Chevy is represented here on this. As You say where it differs is in the Trunk Area, Which looks Shaved off as if perhaps Aussies did not expect more that 12 cubic feet or so in a sedan.
The taillights remind me most of 1966 Mercury Montclair(give Homage to my hometown!)
or above, (I’d love a Park Lane Breezeaway )
I certainly think these look to be thinner metal, perhaps less grand appearing, but of an easier to handle size I would imagine.
Thanks for exposing me to these. I mave have encountered one of these at one time and wondered if it was a Mercury.
Perhaps that is what I find most perplexing. After the first year 1968 Love I had for the new GTO Coke bottle shape, I tired of the rounded look , and would have much preferred this look in our midsize early 70s car market. That Is over the overstyled as well as Dated 71-72, even 73-4 intermediates. These Back windows go down, of that I am certain. Why did we as a society not BALK at the fixed back coupe windows. The Only reason I like a sedan is that I can put the front and back windows down causing a rapid circulation that I find very refreshing.
I like the double headlight look much better than the flaccid singular lens.
good piece.
I think we as a market, were too enamoured of newly-affordable air conditioning to worry about back windows which lowered. The 1970s models offered A/C; not everyone was delighted with the wind-in-the-hair feeling; so lowering back windows were a non-issue and an easy way for manufacturers to save costs.
And on that, I concur. Sure, it’s great on a Saturday afternoon to drop all the windows and roll along. But not so great if you’re dressed for an important meeting and you’re on the Interstate with eighteen screaming duals alongside you throwing dust and muck everywhere.
I speak as someone who tried, for many years, to use a canvas-top (sometimes no-top) Jeep as a daily driver. Half the time it was great. The other half the time…I cursed the day I heard the J-word.
Of course the back windows go up and down these are Australian its hot and air is not always conditioned plus the back doors are shared with lower class wagons. Untill Zackman began moaning about fixed rear windows Id never heard of the idea except in Valiant Charger strippers.
“Untill Zackman began moaning about fixed rear windows…”
Ha Ha Ha! You think I’m bad about that now? You should’ve heard me in the fall of 1972 and all through the 1970’s! A tip of my fedora to you, Sir!
BTW, that top photo looks like a Photoshop of the Buick/Olds/Pontiac from the other day, only cleaner! I’d say it’s a mid-70’s Monac’Granad’Matado’Pala!
That SBC-look-a-like V-8 sure looks sweet, though.
I can tell this is going to be one of those days – scratching my head over an article on TTAC, continuing the same here!
Great write Paul you did well,and Im humbled by the use of my photographic efforts I had thought of doing a cc on this car but I need my fathers photos from his HQ factory tour in 71. The Holden pictured is a 79 I found it outside my daughters school the driver had borrowed it from her father it has the 308 engine and is only used for special occasions now thanks to its fuel thirst @ $10 per gallon a good tune up would cure that as these were not too bad on gas if you keep the secondaries closed.
Also available in New Zealand but not in Australia was The Chevrolet Stateman these were Australian built for South African export and used Chev 350 engines 350 trans and 12 bolt rear end these were sold through Chevrolet and Vauxhall dealers in NZ and were popular for the bigger engine. Holdens have been Chevs in S/A since 66 and still are.
I’m curious, did the Rochester Quadrajet make it over there for these?
308 engines were 4 barrel Rochester 2 barrel on 253s manifolds interchange the 253 used 186/202 6cylinder pistons. These engines have an unusual firing order which with open pipes has a real staccatto sound unmistakable at full throttle.
I have to search for some sound clips of the V8s. If it’s anything like the Cologne V6 in HiPo tune it has to be awesome!
Looks like the Q-Jet was/is quite popular out your way. They even came on the Clevelands!
The Holden V8 firing order is different:1-2-7-8-4-5-6-3
Most American V8s is: 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2
Small block Ford is: 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8
That is unique.
I’m wondering why and what would happen if a bellybutton 350 was swiched to that firing order now.
One difference with the Holden V8 is the RH bank is in front of the LH one, presumably to improve room for the steering box etc.
The LS1 that replaced the Holden 304/5.0 V8 sounds like a vacuum cleaner by comparison. They reduced the capacity by 57cc to get it under 5 litres for Group A touring car racing homologation, the original 5044cc would have meant carrying a couple of hundred pounds extra in the next capacity class.
Are we looking at them from the same end? All GM V8’s have the same layout, no? In fact, other than Ford, just about every American V8 has that configuration: http://www.offroaders.com/tech/V8-engine-firing-order.htm
No I meant the physical offset of the cylinders, or position of the conrods on the crankpins
Edit: nothing like better late than never…
The 253/308 were built so as not to rely on Chevy for engines against orders from the GM mothership in Detroit the engine interchange in virtually all Holdens since the HT in 1970 The HQ range begining in71 was available with a 350 Chev OEM in Australia just check the box in fact the HQ was the first Holden that could be optioned any way you wanted in Australia not NZ we got set models with set engines ie all Premiers/Statesmans were V8 Auto Kingwoods were 202 6 Belmonts were 173 6 all NZ cars had carpet no plastic mats.
Little known or remembered factoid Interiors for Australian cars were manufactured in New Zealand along with tyres and Exhaust system and other sundry parts. This paid for the CKD packs that were assembled in NZ.
O.K. I know that sound. It sent chills down my spine I found a dyno run of a 400hp 308. The last time I heard something that nice was my 427(.060 over for 440ci).
Apologies for all the hijacks..
At 100mph in the middle of the night on the Newel highway the sound is AWESOME it vibrates your soul. Once upon a time the cops werent around everywhere.
No arguement there. My stretch was a southern stretch of I55 and with the factory 2.76 gears out back it seemed like you could accelerate to infinity. (When I upgraded to 4.56 gears and BFG drag radials I gave a friend of mine a mild concussion on a holeshot. He bounced his head off the rollbar.)
Very few things can grab my attention like a lumpy cammed V8.
Bryce, Send me something else, then. And thanks for inspiring me with the pictures.
Happy to help Paul lets see what else I find. Most cars I see are common to the US so its not worth me shooting them but some of the Australian/European cars are a bit more unusual/interesting.
Once I finish my computing course I may even be able to supply text!
I WANT IT!
Having said that the top-most pre jump picture caused this thought to pop into my head which I must release into the blogosphere so that it does not linger too long: “That looks for all the world like a Chevy Caprice as designed by a group Japanese engineers who have a fondness for orgami.”
My favourite is still the HQ series my dad bought a brand new metallic blue Kingswood weeks before I got my licence. I was crushed it was automatic meaning I couldnt use it for my test as I would have restricted to automatic cars which then were rare The HQ Holden was the first standard auto in NZ you had to request manual on a Kindswood or better the stripper Belmont was manual the ladder went Belmont, Kingswood with wagons and utes Premier sedan only Monaro 2door coupe and LS Monaro which was premier trim the the Statesman many $ above with no body options and in NZ V8 only
Having learned to drive a stick shift at age 32 (having been taught by a 26 year old female) I am whole heartedly in favor of graduated licences in the US.
I learnt manual at age 13 autos simply didnt exist here except in luxury cars then suddenly even Holdens have them. For the early 70s NZs average car was a 6 cylinder Holden we took to them like ducks to water and they still sell well. Heres some irony The Holden featured is based on a Chev Camaro now the new Camaro was designed and developed by Holden and exported back and Holdens are the new police Chevy for the US. Now if you want to go fast walk into the Holden store buy a new V8 Cdore send it to HSV and it comes back capable of seeing off an M5 around a track.
It is a bit funny that all of GM’s HiPo stuff comes from Holden now.
What really amazes me that GM can see the Caprice PPV being profitable without selling it to the general public.
The general public in Dubai buy a lot of them and South Africa and I reckon youll be able to buy one at the Chevy store.
England get the smaller Commodore with Vauxhall badging and the supercharged V8 even Clarkson on top gear was impressed with how those things go the Holden is faster than the Vauxhall Lotus Carltom which was the worlds fastest car in its day bar Ferrari
Don’t take it as an insult…but I had to snicker.
I learned how to drive a manual…before I owned a car.
Worked on a golf course, summers…and I had to run their three Ford 8Ns; a Jacobsen golf-course specific tractor, with a Muncie four-speed without syncros (that thing would do 45 mph with its Ford in-line OHV four) and – my favorite – a Cushman Turf-Truckster with a three-on-the-tree.
I for one am not in favor of graduated licenses. But I’d have NO problem if the driver’s test was required to be done on a manual-gearbox car…much like the way CDL applicants have to test on the truck of the class they’re endorsed for.
Welcome to the world of shift-for-yourself. I’ve only owned three automatics of all the cars I’ve had…all of them in the last six years.
I don’t take it as an insult. FWIW when my father realized he had never taught me to drive stick which would have required say borrowing a 78 Chevy truck with a 4 speed stick from his employer, he didn’t own any stick shifts by the time I started to drive. My mother on the other hand drove a Chevelle with a 396 and a standard trans while she was pregnant with me.
I learned to drive a stick at 17 in my friend’s dad’s 1966 Bel-Air!
Doesn’t matter what age, just that you learned. I enjoy our MX5 5-speed, but I enjoy cruising in my Imp equally well. So…the best of both worlds.
Growing up in Brisbane in the 1970s, the Statesman was a luxury car driven by wealthy businessmen, or successful real estate agents. I don’t think I ever had a ride in one. It was a car for people with money.
The Holden Kingswood was a car for the family, it was Australia’s top selling car for years. Our family’s HQ Holden was basic: 3 speed tri-matic column shift auto mated to a 202 “red” motor; vinyl floor coverings; vinyl seats; no power steering; no radio; no air conditioning; bench seats and other luxuries such as open-shut doors, over-head roof, and wind-down windows. It had everything we needed or wanted. Believe or not, this was not the stripper model – as Bryce said above, that was the Belmont. For those folks with a bit of cash, Holden offered the Premier option, that included a higher level of interior comfort.
In the ’80s, the hoons I knew used to remove the Holden badges and replace them with Chevy emblems, especially if they replaced he 253 with a 350 SBC, and claimed that they drove Chevies – a lot of hoons I knew were real wankers.
I agree with Bryce about the Holden’s understeering. The family HQ Holden handled a bit like a 55 Chevrolet. Their great virtue was their rugged simplicity. Once driving to Melbourne, I “blew up” the engine in a HJ Holden Kingswood. The car behind me, a HQ Holden, was driven by a tattooed bloke who stopped to help me. “Geeze mate!,” he said, “Looks like it shit itself! A big flame come out the back and we drove through this big cloud of smoke,” he said. He gave me a lift to the phone box (remember them), and I called a tow truck. The flatbed truck arrived about 30 minutes later. We popped the hood, and the tow truck driver said “Looks like it shit itself.” On the drive into a town called Euroa (as in “you rowa da boat, I catcha da fish) the driver tried to sell me a new engine for $2500. I said no thanks, arranged a tow to Melbourne for $180, and went to the pub until the tow arrived. At the pub I got talking to some local toughs with tattoos, one of whom owned a HZ Holden One Tonner (look it up). We got to talking about what happened, and they suggested I let it cool, top up the oil, and start it up. They said the Holden 202 motor was nearly indestructible and I’d probably just overheated it and blown out a few valves. They were right. I ran back to the pub, bought them a round of Bundaberg Rum and cokes, and drove the hundred or so miles to Melbourne, where I discovered that I had no compression in two of the 6 cylinders, and was down to 50% in a 3rd. I drove for another 6 months covering another 10,000 miles with that engine before I bought a new replacement engine. An outfit called Higgenbotham’s in Sydney had a fantastic engine replacement business: order your engine a week in advance, drop off your car on the arranged day at 7:00AM, and pick it up at 5:00PM the same day – your new engine installed and ready to run in. If I didn’t replace that engine, I recon it would probably still be chugging along.
These cars were at their best on the open road. In they city they could be a handful, especially reverse parking up a hill. They 202’s could also be good on fuel too – I once got 29 miles per gallon driving between Rockhampton and Brisbane.
I spent a lot of my childhood in this HQ Kingswood, until Dad traded it on a 1979 XD Ford Falcon. Good memories, but I would not buy one today “for old time’s sake.”
My mate had a HQ ute with 186ci 6cyl, 3 on the tree & dual exhaust. He had an alternator fail on a night-time trip, the headlights got dimmer until he had to stop. A rest let the battery recover for another 5-10 minutes of driving, after a couple of goes of that it started to run rough and he aborted the trip. In the morning it started up again and he headed for home, back up the highway with no electrics whatsoever, no dash lights even, if he lifted of the throttle it would run rough again – this was a problem as he was going to get to the end of the freeway in town! So he took a hilly route through the suburbs and managed to keep it revving & going at stop lights until approx 2 mile from home it died, he got the bus home & knocked on my door to get a tow. Not bad to get probably 60 miles on a dead battery and no alternator, we figured it had been dieseling on carbon deposits in the cylinder head.
Under steering was deliberately engineered into the car as a passive safety measure. A-pillars were angled so that the thin edge faced into the cabin, thereby giving better visibility. Not that they were mercedes, but Holden tried to build in these safety things in anticipation of more stringent regulation. HQ looks better than a Chevelle or Nova. Best looking Aussie range ever.
Aussie d-heads are still slapping Chevrolet badges on their Holden utes and Commodores today. I have no idea why. Are they embarrassed that they own a Holden perhaps? A retro Holden will never be and never was a “Chevrolet.” Anyone I see with a Chev badge on their Holden car to me gets the instant bogan d-head award. Bam!
We get em with factory Chev bowties, export models not seen on the Aussie market. been happenin for decades.
Awesome to see a car with Kiwi number plates! And a nice accurate write-up too Paul, well done.
We were a Ford family while I grew up in the 70s and 80s, but I sometimes got a lift with one of my school teachers who had a 1971 Belmont (the stripper as Bryce says). I have vivid memories of the most basic interior I’d ever seen this side of a Land Rover. It was a 3-speed column-change manual gearbox, with the 173 cube straight-6. The seats were support-free and the understeer was truly magnificent, but the ride was nice.
As a child/know-it-all teen, I preferred the more masculine ’70s Falcon styling, but now I’m all grown up (hah!) I’ve grown to really appreciate the subtlety of the Kingswood/Statesperson design. I loved the WB-series Statesman styling from new though – I think it marries the right level of the original’s detail with the right level of 80s crispness. It also provided the base for a rather interesting Rolls Royce Silver Spirit look-alike kit car sold in Australia by Creative Concepts in the late 80s.
As Bryce notes, the Stateman was also sold as a Chevrolet in South Africa and here in New Zealand. The HJ and later series were just re-badged Statesmans, but the original HQ model (sold as the Chev Constantia) actually had it’s own unique grille, as pictured below. The Kingswood ute was sold as the Chev El Camino in South Africa too.
Fun fact: the HQ Statesman shared tail-lights with the HQ-HZ Holden station wagons.
I agree about the WB Statesman. It was fine looking car, except for the dash, and that single spoke steering wheel.
Yes, with you on both counts. Didn’t that wheel go on the SL/E or Calais too? But the WB’s one of the few cars where the outside looks so good I could live with the interior – especially if it had the epic crushed red velvet! I keep eyeing them up on trademe, but the good ones are pricey, so I settle for staring at the two that live locally.
The dashboard says Ford
The a/c controls say GM
The steering wheels says Citroen.
Best Holden they ever made Ive been to Euroa my HR ate a waterpump there. And my EH had a 179 Higgenbottom engine if a 202 blows anywhere in OZ years ago look under any hedge youll find a spare I got a recoed 192 from a write off $ 250 4 hours to swap into my panelvan and away wrecking yard service.
The waterpump was a quick fix too – 3 or 4 bolts and at the front of the block for quick access. They were cheap to replace too. I remember paying $20 for one at either Repco or Supercheap Auto.
You are right about looking under a hedge for Holden motors too. A mate of mine salvaged a 179 or 161 from a dumped Holden (an EH I think) and put it in a Sunbird. It was a big improvement on the 4 cylinder in the Sunbird. He lived in an area outside Brisbane where cars were dumped. He found a Humber Hawk, VE Valiant, EH Holden, and and HR Holden.
Fun fact2 Holden Statesmans were stolen in OZ simply for the front clip and power doors to swap onto utes The NRMA did a demonstration on TV 41/2 minutes to remove all 4 doors &front clip& bonnet the dashboards were popular too but harder to remove. There was a ravine with hundreds of part stripped cars discovered in the blue mountains
That doesn’t surprise me. Sydney in general was pretty bad for car theft. I put a kill switch into my HJ, and every time I parked in Sydney, used it, and took the rotor out of the distributer. Sure enough, one day it was broken into, but the bast@#rds didn’t get it going.
My ex girlfriends mother had an HZ Prem V8 pwr everything it got flatbed stolen, Police found the car minus 4 headlight front pwr doors wheels headers everything without a number gone she went to a beatup HQ with 253 looked like shit noone touched it.
That tail-happy Holden Brougham sure looks like a 69-70 Falcon with a huge booty!
Compare it to the Opel below, I’d almost think the front doors would be interchangeable. Both cars were introduced at roughly the same time so I’m sure it is not a coincidence.
The HQ-WB series cars were semi-unitary with a front subframe (and bolt-on front panels, the same ute I mentioned above was crashed by my mate’s younger brother, a ‘new’ front end off a wagon & you would not know), only the one-ton chassis cab had a full-length chassis.
It was only the long-wheelbase Statesmans & commercials (ute & panel van) that stayed in production after 1978 when the Commodore was introduced, both my great-uncles had WB Statesmans. From 1984 until 1990 Holden did not produce either until returning with Commodore-based replacements, the old Statesmans were thus very popular (& held their value) for a long time.
It is still common to see the HQ-WB utes & one-tonners used by tradesmen, however rising insurance premiums are now pricing them off the road due to the scarcity of replacement parts and impact on repair costs.
I don’t get it. GM has been trying to get us to drive Opels for 40 years, with little success. But they have never tried to bring in any of the Aussie stuff (until the G8?).
Personally, I find the Austrailian Holdens and Falcons so much more appealing than GM and Ford’s european stuff. Maybe it’s just my thing for rear wheel drive.
Great piece. This is the very beginning of filling a large void of knowlege that I have about the cars from down under. Great find, Brice, and Paul’s writeup does it justice.
The GTO first in 2004.
Theres a good reason why American cars since the 70s are held in low reguard out this way US OEMs lost the plot entirely where Australian manufacturers built what customers wanted mostly steadily improving their cars
We did get Junk like the Holden Camira a J car but it didnt sell and I see more vintage Packards the J survivors here
Ford made some awful Falcons with the EA trying to upgrade their fleet they rushed it onto the market without much dsevelopment and Dearborne threatened closure over warranty costs but they improved it with subsequent models the borrower of this Statesman has a 92 Falcon as her daily drive and she tells me it been trouble free for 10 years in fact I might shoot it for Paul to write about he thrives on a challenge look at this story.
@Bryce: The reason why the Americans lost the trail is because of our draconian CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) law. Succinctly, it forces the manufacturers to build small cars that Americans don’t want.
Personally, I’m glad to see that Australians didn’t get sucked into such a counterproductive piece of legislation and that we’re able to reap the rewards of you (meaning the Australians as a whole) keeping the flame.
More power to you. And send me a G8 again, please? I missed it the last time they were here…
Not sure I really buy that, not as the whole reason at least for starters I would have to agree that all the new regs coming in may have overstretched their resources for what they wanted to do.
In any case the smaller cars never made it to this side of the pond, US cars all but disappeared from the Australian market in the late 60’s. I think this was because of two main factors, the appearance of long-wheelbase local cars and improvement of Mercedes as a prestige make, and also the growth of US full-size cars into whale-like excessive dimensions and accompanying mushy handling. Even today the US cars that come to our market use the European suspension tune as a starting point.
The Camira was a shocker. I’d also nominate as examples of Holden junk the HB Torana, the one based on the Vauxhall Viva. Holden even tried to boost sales by putting out a Jack Brabham model, as if using the former F1 world champion’s name would boost sales. It didn’t work. The later model Toranas were much better, and some were just great.
My other nomination would be the Gemini, based on the GM T-car platform. I know some folks loved them. I spent a day watching them being assembled at the old Holden assembly plant in Acacia Ridge in Brisbane. I was more interested in seeing the HZ Holden Premiers going down the line. Things you don’t want see being made are laws, sausages, and Holden Geminis. Unfortunately, I’ve seen all 3.
One The Brabham Viva was available in England on the HA and had nothing to do with Holden they simply rebadged the Vauxhall version the hot HB Viva had the OHC Victor engine and they went like a bat outa hell but Aussie didnt get any real English cars from Ford or GM where NZ did and Vauxhalls were the deal for standard production racing here the 3.3 Victors would pull nearly 120mph in showroom order Check the cohort for a real Viva GT also a end for ended Japanese Isuzu built Camira my dad was unhurt after that crash backwards 65 feet down a bank they were shit cars but strong.
There was nothing really wrong with HB’s, just that they were pretty slow even for the time. Series 1 HBs were basically rebadged Vivas with round headlights, Series 2 HBs were improved with a lot more Australian content.
Cool car, and nice photos Bryce. I love Australian cars, they’re so similar yet so different from US cars. I have read articles on the Valiant, Valiant Charger and Centura, but not the Kingswood/Commodore/Statesman line of vehicles so the info is welcome!
Well the response to this car has been great and Paul wants some more down under cars to inspire him so be warned Ive got my scanner going and Ive found a wayback book with some good shots of some of my rides and I still see lots of curbside Aussie cars in my suburb.
Interesting to see the comments by all the US guys.
Early 70’s Holdens are very Buick inspired.
HQ Statesman is one of nicest Holdens of the 70’s
HQ Monaro is a nice car too.
One of the best though is the “Chrysler by Chrysler” Hardtop.
Inspired by the 2 door Fuselage Chryslers of the same era of which I am a proud owner.
Like many Americans, I’m fascinated by the Australian cars. It’s like meeting a long lost cousin (which coincidentally, I have). They kind of look like you, and you know you’re related somehow, but it is kind odd at first.
Several years ago, I’m at the local drag strip for the annual Jet Car drags. For some reason my wife loves this stuff. I’m more of a purist…
They were also highlighting the best of the locals in bracket racing, so they had a lot of cars in the staging lanes. While walking past the lanes to get to the concession stand (US 131 Raceway has excellent cheeseburgers, ask me how I know), and I see this purple car I can’t immediately figure out what it is. I think I know a little about cars, but I can’t recognize this one. As we approach it, I see that it has “Monaro” in script lettering on the lower front fender close to the door.
It was then I realized what it was, an early 70’s Monaro, RHD and all, with what I thought was a SBC, but it could have been a Holden motor. I went into the paddock to see if I could find the driver/owner, but I had no luck. I wandered back to the stands, and there it was in the bleach box lining up for another run. It ran real well (low 11’s), but they were in the last of the brackets before the jet cars came out and I never made it over to look for the car again.
I haven’t made it to the drags as much as I would like, but I usually get there a couple times a year, but I have never seen that Monaro again…
I just found a Monaro 2 driveways from me Ill sneak in and shoot it soon
Just curious, isn’t the car pictured at the very top have NZ license tags, rather than from any of the Oz states?
Another thing I noticed, these Holdens seem to have a bit more ground clearance than a typical GM counterpart in North America.
Yes, those are New Zealand plates (ie tags). They wouldn’t be the car’s original plates though, as from the mid-60s until 2000, our plates were 2-letters+4-numbers. They were also silver in a black background until 1987 when the ‘NA…’ series started. The Statesman’s original plates would probably have started with an ‘I’ or a ‘J’.
In the year 2000, we got up to ZZ9999, whereupon the new series of plates began, this time with 3-letters+3-numbers as per the Statesman. With the old 2-letter plates, it was quite easy to establish the date of a car’s registration, but it’s a bit harder with the 3-letter ones. My 2005 Mazda6 was CZM28, and my 2008 Mazda6 was ESE717, so we can thus assume the Statesman received its DEQ744 replacement plates sometime in 2006.
Bryce who took the photos lives in New Zealand, as do I, hence the Kiwi plates on the photos he took. New Zealand has long been one of Holden’s key export markets, currently with the Commodore series – and likewise we’re a key export market for Ford Australia’s Falcon, as the Ford vs Holden rivalry is played up with the V8 series racing – not to mention in many a schoolyard! I’m not sure about ground clearance, but given the state of the outback roads, as well as many of our back-country roads, decent ground clearance would be a must.
Oh! Just found photos of the HQ Holden Kingswood/WB Statesman-based Rolls-Royce Silver Spirit kit car, have uploaded one below. You’ll note the Holden doors with the distinctive curve up at the rear; as well as the WB Statesman headlights. If you really want to feast your eyes (or burn your retinas) on more of this Aussie-ingenuity, the rest of the images are over at http://www.bentleyspotting.com/2011/02/rolls-royce-kingswood.html
Interesting. For some reason, that reminds me of a Lincoln Versailles.
Rolls Royce took legal action over these!
I think the front end would look better on a Rolls Royce.
The A pillars are a giveaway too not bad though I wonder how many were fooled. Do you remember the Firebird body kits available for HQs someone realised the HQ was on a Camaro/Firebird platform and mede fibreglass bodies to change them back. I havent seen one since I returned but it was a cheap way to get a Fbird back in the day. Mpre HQs on the CCFicka page found some wagons today
The other one was the Perentti fibreglass body that went on a one-tonner chassis, looking like a 3rd gen Corvette. I have a picture of one from a car show in Frankston a few years back, will have to get it on the web.
thought you all might be interested in this book. found this site trying to look for an example pic of the flat-backed statesmans from the 80’s. Anyway i got these books from the Holden Website, but it was a link that google found when I was looking for something else (can’t remember what), and I can’t seem to actually link to it on their site anywhere anymore it seems. But the files mustve obviously still been on their server, as they were readily downloadable/viewable (via the goole link) so I grabbed them for my dad. Anyway, I’ve put them on my server, which you can access at:
http://brendon1981.no-ip.org/public/multimedia/e-books/Holden%20Herritage/
username is “guest” no password. hope it is a good read.
funny seeing what americans think of aussie cars. i sort of think from at least from the first ‘fx’ holden and the first falcon, aussie styling seems half-way between british and american. im sure in the 70’s some people would have opted for brit/jap styled 4-cyls here in au (like morris minor, or a toyota corolla), but back then i reckon they would have been dorks. my dad liked datsuns – he was a dork. and some people would have opted for imported luxury cars too. but yeah like old mate was saying majority wouldve opted for a merc rather than a lincholn. here in aus in the 70’s, obtaining fincance for a brand new car was a lot more common (than it is now) for people leaving school and going straight into full-time work, so trends like the bigger engines and the “monaro” lines were really aimed at the youth market – it was because they went fast and sounded tough that they had a v8, not because they were towing around 2 tonne of metal and air-conditioning and other electrical gadgets, and a “boot” (trunk indeed) that was big enough to move house with. america’s cars were too flamboyant/flashy – no-one wants to suffer from tall poppy syndrome.
cars came from all over here in aus before the 40’s, and heaps converted to RHD. when i was a kid back in the 80’s my dad used to own a (restored) 1927 Hudson Essex Super Six, Which I’m pretty sure is american, and had been in aus as a RHD since new. Oh yeah, btw, I’ve got an old ’71 XA Fairmont wagon that I bought for $500 about 8 years ago, sitting outside at a mates property up the coast. goes and all, just rusty. I’ll put up a pic… i know i’ll get ripped on for it being a ford, but i just put it up as an example of typical 70’s au car. i would swap it for a chrysler by chrysler any day. i reckon the holdens probably went better (racing), but ive always found aussie fords/valliants to seem roomier and slightly more american styled.
What good is having a link to click if we can’t get inside? I clicked on the link and it said “This website is not available.” Why is that?
Well, his comment is almost three years old. The site probably got taken down or something.
That would explain it. If the site was taken down, however, shouldn’t the link to that site also be taken down? I would think that would make it less tempting for someone to click on it.
My gosh! The WB statesman looks like a cross between a US-Market 1977-1992 Gm B-Body and a 1980’s Roller!
This section sure brings back some memories. These cars were shipped to Trinidad in CKD form and built at a factory there for distribution in the Caribbean. A schoolmate’s dad owned two (with six sons, he needed a big vehicle for sure!) and they were very popular as taxis. As far as I know, there is only one that is still on the road here in Barbados and I see it very rarely.
I’ve owned several HQ’s, sedans & wagons. Still love em too. Best forward visibility of anycar I’ve ever driven. And so easy to work on. Well laid out, plenty of room- on the sixes any way. Add a V8, P/S & A/C it gets a bit more harder, but they were always
easier to work on than the frod falcon & Valiants of the same era.
Sure they got a rep for understeer, but that’s an easy fix.When they were released they got rave reviews for ride & handling. And no way were they built on the 2nd generation Camaro/Firebird platform.
They all had forward mounted steering boxes, granted. HQ’s are a longer wheelbase,
have 4 coil suspension and have more in common with the GM A bodies of the late
60s. Some suspension parts interchange. Trust me I know. I’m running HQ front shocks & upper bushes in my Skylark.
The commericial range of utes, vans & the cab chassis used a full chassis & leaf springs at the rear .
I’d prefer the HQ Statesman and Deville any day over the HJ, the HX, or the HZ. I do like the WB Statesman, Deville, and Caprice. The HQ Statesman and the WB Statesman have the best looking tail end (IMHO). 🙂
Quite funny reading an American perspective of our Aussie cars. We knew our cars were always orphans and “bitsas” (is that an Australianism? just in case: bitsa is short for “bits and pieces”, something made of odds and ends. Anything thrown together from whatever and wherever is called a bitsa in AU and NZ.) For example, the HQ Holden sedan which was what the Statesman was styled from was a pretty monstrous looking car in terms of its style (or lack of) but we all loved them here in AU and NZ. Even after all these years I still think they are ugly though. Perhaps you could say Australian Holdens were “eclectic”?
Gday mate. Good to hear from another one of us.
Paul had a look at the HQ here;
https://www.curbsideclassic.com/blog/cohort-outtake-holden-hqs-the-ozzie-nova-and-camaro-close-not-quite-close-enough/
There’s a few other oz cars covered here, if you can’t find them in the index do a search in the google panel top right of the page.
I see a couple of major threads from the U.S. going on there. There’s some of the look of the ’68-’72 intermediates there in the trunk area, and the crease running the length of the side came right off the ’65 Corvair. The wheel openings aren’t far removed from the Corvair, either.
That’s what’s so interesting to us about the Australian divisions of U.S. car companies: trying to tease out what elements came from where.
Hold my hand by the B pillar of the red Holden pictured and cover the rear and the front looks great, flip sides and the rear looks good. Pull my hand away and it looks like a Mad Magazine fold out!
Update, I saw this same car a few days ago it still runs, thereare a few more primer patches so its rusting in true GMH style.
The GM rust and primer is by no means unique to Holden…it just happened quicker in the US (or at least the parts of it where road salt is used).
Back in the day I drove a metallic sand and beige velour ’73 Holden Statesman 308 and it was pleasant enough to drive, but I found my personal daily driver two year old 1972 HQ Kingswood V8 more fun being a shorter lighter nimbler car (you could most certainly get a V8 HQ Kingswood or even Belmont out of Trentham Park if you wanted one back then, it was just that the average dealer was more likely to be ordering sixes for the showroom floor, and particularly from 1973 onwards, but if you had a boat or caravan to tow getting the V8’s across the range was not difficult. I know this because my family’s company was buying them for it’s sales reps back then as an incentive to produce results, and if a rep was lazy he soon got to be driving an older HG 186 in no time at all . . lol !
The Holden V8’s were not that reliable .. after about 35,000 miles the cam lobes, lifters, rocker tips and valve stems were all badly worn either from faulty hardening or poor oil supply or a combo of both ..and these engines didn’t take too well to being thrashed for hours on end (the 308 in the Hamilton jet was run at full throttle at 5,000 rpm for longish stretches at a time, and had a tendency to blow it’s crankcase oil back out the filler tube . . at least this what happened in our family’s boat (which had one of the first 308’s put ‘new’ into it in 1970) . .
The V8 engine in my daily driver HQ Kingswood was ‘dead’ at 37,000 miles from new . . totally stuffed in the valve train components and required a complete rebuild . . admittedly it had been driven very hard and long back and forth over the Coromandel Ranges (it was never over-heated, or run short of oil, or asked to do any towing either) it was just a short-lived engine basically, and after that I bought a bright canary yellow and black top CJ 360 which lasted very well
Ozzy? I always thought is was Aussie.
Yep,
Like, Aussie Ausborne.
It is Aussie, although some people call Australia “Oz” (I don’t).
It’s not spelt “Ozzie”, but I can absolutely understand the confusion.
I wish someone had told me earlier 🙂
But the Urban Dictionary and other sources say that “Ozzie” is used in this way: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ozzie
But I will stop using it.
Interesting. I sometimes feel a bit of a cultural cringe when I use the word ‘Aussie’, reminds me of bogans at the tennis. I don’t see a problem with ‘oz’, after all this is a land of magic wonderment.
Geez, I HATE those ugly Holdens and those Mad Max Ford Falcons, Taunuses and Aussie LTDs.
Looks like Bizarro Superman designed those eyesores. I guess this was the 70’s and early 80’s, so they get a “free pass” on distorted styling, right? Wrong.
If the US Gremlin, Mustang II, Vega or any other 70’s Detroit car can get ragged on… What makes these things above them?
Sorry, I love Australia, been there twice, you guys made this American feel like family, your women are exotic and friendly, I am jealous of your selection of JDM cars… Heck, you guys are lucky for getting the S15 Silvia and R34 Skyline… but, I don’t envy the choice of my Aussie and NZ friends, having to drive these eyesore foreign GM and Ford derivatives.
Those old Holdens make AMC Ambassadors and Rebels look like Pininfarina masterpieces.
New Zealand had the JDM cars as normal fare Australia got SFA their market is/was severely restricted to protect the local industry, Skylines are a dime a dozen in godzone ans are really nothing special.
The photo of the Holden Brougham: so that’s where the inches lopped off the trunk of the Cadillac Park Avenue sedans ended up!
Those tail lights look “1963 Pontiac” which predated the Mercury mentioned earlier.
Which were pre-dated by the Continental in 61. The shape of these is pure 66 Mercury.
Too short in the front. Nice cars tho.
Many Australians believed HQ meant “Handling Questionable”.Leo Pruneau designed the HQ with smooth American freeways in mind.The first generation VW Golf/Rabbitt had as much interior front seat space as the much larger HQ Holden.I had to drive a 1971 HQ 120 miles from Hobart to Launceston in 1973,on straight smooth sections of the highway it rocked from side to side like a boat in a swell.The steering was woeful,the bench seat had no support and very little comfort and this car was only two years old and in immaculate condition.Sure they were simple and easy to work on and reliable,but they were nowhere near as accomplished as the ” French Holden”,the Peugeot 404 from 1960.My father’s 1965 Buick Skylark handled better than the HQ,he almost traded the Skylark on either a new BMW 3.0 sedan or the Holden Statesman,but decided to keep his very last Buick.The most telling part for me was when I arrived back in Launceston in the HQ,the Sales Manager asked me if I would deliver a basic model Leyland P76 to the new owner,60 miles away.The P76 was light years ahead of the Holden in terms of handling,comfort,quietness etc.You didn’t get rack and pinion steering on Holdens nor any major mechanical engineering advancements.The Holdens did look good though,especially the Statesman/Caprice versions.Two German engineers from Opel arrived in Australia to attempt to remedy the handling problems for the introduction of radial tyres,it was named RTS,Radial Tuned Suspension.If you hadn’t driven any other make of car a Holden would probably seem ok but really they were bland,boring and an unexciting car to drive.European manufacturers were in a different league to conservative Holden.The time is fast approaching when Holden Commodores and Ford Falcons will be a distant memory,manufacturing will cease circa 2016/2017,a shame that Australia will no longer have a car manufacturing industry but most Aussies buy Japanese or European cars.
Leo Pruneau was only the stylist/designer, there was an ex-Buick (I think) man who was CEO at the time who was the one behind the handling setup that was shall I say designed to very forcefully communicate when you were pushing too hard. Although the end result is nowhere near as dire, this seems to me a similar philosophy to how Toyotas are now.
I think the RTS was really a change in philosophy for suspension geometry, and they used the radial tyre thing as an excuse or cover to ditch the old setup without embarrassment.
The boulevard-ride hyper-understeer philosophy was a disaster. It didn’t suit Aussie road conditions and driving styles. Freeways were few in those days, so Aussies needed a car that could hold speed into corners. We expected that, and were happy to trade a bit of ride comfort if necessary. Holden’s suspension guy at the time didn’t seem to get that. Of course, Peugeot owners were laughing – they had both.
Also the car magazines continually put the Falcon ahead for handling in comparison tests, saying it felt sportier. GM finally decided to do something about that, and introduced RTS as a big step forward – which it was, for Holden. Better than a Falcon, anyway. For a while.
That still left the engines though. Sure the V8s were nice, but most Aussies bought sixes – and in emissions tune Holden’s best, the 202, was a noisy, breathless lump that never seemed happy at speed. Fortunately that didn’t go into Statesmans/Statesmen.
When I was at college I had an American professor who drove Oldsmobiles back home. He had an HQ Statesman here (with wire mags and whitewalls!) and was really pleased with his “little Cadillac”.
You could get a 202 and even 3 on the tree with the base model HQ Statesman Custom, quite a rare car to find now.
Easy fix with an “emission” type 202 was to change the cam to the old type or sportier grind. The 202 gets a bad wrap most of the time but it was a good work horse and did the job of providing daily transport to hundreds of thousands of people. Also won Bathurst powering a Torana.
Agree entirely Pete, a few family members and friends had Peugeots back then. Even the non-emission 202 wasn’t flash, I remember hearing the description “mouse ear” ports when describing their breathing ability, and most of the ports were siamesed as was GM practice at the time. Conventional wisdom is that the Holden V8’s of the era used the same amount of fuel or less than the sixes especially if they had to work at all.
The mate I mentioned in my earlier comment replaced his HQ ute with an XF, his brother was very disappointed that his WB ute with the 253 V8 saw the XF’s tail lights in no uncertain manner.
Chief Engineer George Roberts was ex-Cadillac and specified in the HQ’s ‘boulevard ride’ despite the misgivings of the Australian staffers.
HQs understeer something shocking the first long highway drive I had in one was my dads new 73 202 trimatic back to highschool, I had a freshly minted licence and was allowed to take the wheel, we went via Mangakahia rd which twists and turns its way to Kaikohe speed after the first couple of scares was at or below recommended velocity on corners, those cars were delivered new on cross ply tyres and even on a dry road were a nitemare at speed,
I just did the same trip in the rain in my C5 on bald Michelins and it held the road like a leech at well above the current speed limit.
Is it just me or does the late 1970’s Holden Statesman look somewhat similar to a 1974-78 Chrysler Newport? That’s the vibe I get when I see the front end
It’s kind of bittersweet to read articles like this now, knowing that Australia’s auto industry is being wound down.
The nose of that 1971 blue Statesman, picture #5, is gorgeous. If there was a ute version…
Those Statesman front panels have been highly prized over the years .
They are easily bolted to the front of lesser models, including the utes.
And yes it was a handsome front end.
“…Looking at Australian cars makes me feel slightly woozy, like I’ve just come down with a case of twenty-four hour amnesia. It’s like waking up in the morning and asking your life-partner of several decades: “you look so familiar, but what did you say your name was?” Or “I know your name, but you don’t look like her….”
Mr Niedermeyer, you certainly have a way with words and a whimsical way to describe things. I enjoy your articles.
I’ve had the similar reaction when I saw some “American” cars in Latin America. Looks familiar, but not quite the same or something not quite right. Or maybe I was temporarily in an alternative parallel universe.
But the Australian cars put a different twist on things, don’t they?
Got a question: Given the similarity in design with the American cars, any differences in the components, chassis, suspension, etc., between the American cars and the Australian cars? Or are American cars sufficiently rugged enough without mods to take the rugged conditions in Australia?
Some were Valiants lasted ok unmodified except for larger wheels Falcons disintegrated until local strengthening took effect, this series of Holden is full of Chevrolet parts in the suspension and steering even the wheel stud pattern changed to Chevrolet in 71 with the advent of the HQ.
“are American cars sufficiently rugged enough without mods to take the rugged conditions in Australia?”
In the 1950’s – no. The hammering on rough, unsealed roads would destroy suspension bushings and shock absorbers pretty quickly. Often sealed roads were in pretty poor condition too. In 1960 approx 10% of roads in Australia were bitumen/ashpalt or concrete, and around 50% were not even paved with gravel, ie “unimproved”. If you got off the main highways you were probably driving on a gravel road, and there were also gravel or dirt streets in most towns. Even today in Melbourne, the capital city of Victoria, I know of a handful gravel roads & streets around the suburbs.
Today most people would never drive any significant distance off the bitumen, but if you go into rural areas roads with any significant traffic will be bitumen but others have not changed a lot. In proper outback areas apart from main highways and major roads there isn’t any bitumen. On a trip I did 10 years ago there were signs when you approached towns to advise when you would get phone reception, these are quite remote areas.
“Or are American cars sufficiently rugged enough without mods to take the rugged conditions in Australia?”
Australian wisdom/bias would suggest the answer is “not even close”, but beyond the parochial bias, there are a few more points to consider…
The needs of “rugged” differs from place to place – there is almost no need for handling sub-zero (centigrade) temperatures in Oz, but baking sun, corrugated roads, and dust – all in plenty of supply 🙂
I think the most compelling argument that vehicles needed to be designed/modded to handle “Australian conditions” is that both General Motors and Ford have proving grounds in Australia, originally to assist in local vehicle development, but I believe (memory/hearsay) both get used from time to time these days by other manufacturers too (to test against Aussie conditions? …or perhaps just get away from the motor paparazzi 🙂
Ford’s “You Yangs” is slightly larger (930 to 870 hectares), but Holden’s “Lang Lang” is older (1957 to 1965) and arguably better known. Both are remaining open despite manufacturing ceasing (in 2016 for Ford, 2017 for Holden)
The picture of the Caprice under the engine pic – those look exactly like a type of hubcap Pontiac used in the 1970s…
As mentioned by some , this was sold here in South Africa as the Chev Constantia. I actually saw one a few months back in pristine condition. Amazing to think that a few decades back we had lots of Aussie and American style cars to choose from here , now everyone buys tiny Euro cars.
I saw an ex-South African Chevrolet El Camino recently, it had a 308 badge on the side which is the Holden V8 – I was surprised to see that.
John h
I own that e camino and have it in melbourne. It is original that was exported to south africa
Regards noe
Dimensionally, the standard-wheelbase HQ sedan is very close to the Chevy Nova of the time, so not even close to being a big car by contemporary American standards. Likely one of the beefing-up strategies used for the Australian market was to use full-size undercarriage components in a Detroit-compact bodyshell.
It’s interesting to read of Ford’s superior handling to Holden in the ’70s since on the US market contemporary road tests have it the other way around, with Ford going to extremes of “Ride-Engineered” quiet while GM, and Chevy seemingly especially, went to more of a balance. Of course either one could be had with various grades of heavy-duty suspension and I can only wonder how much of Ford’s much-ballyhooed soft ride was left on a ’71 Galaxie 500 maxed-out for towing.
There was also a performance version of the WB, by Peter Brock, called the Magnum. Larger rims, MOMO I think, colour coding and higher output 308. Quite rare and pricey now, I don’t recall seeing one for decades.