So how much exactly does it cost to drive a new car for twelve years and 150,000 miles? The IRS mileage deduction for 2011 is 55.5¢ per mile. A couple of years back, Edmunds quoted a TCO (True Cost of Ownership) for a 2000 Forester kept for five years and driven 75k miles to be 50¢ per mile. I’m a bit of a cheapskate, so I was hoping to do a bit better. Now that we’re arriving at that twelve year/150k mileage milestone, I thought I’d get out my little notebook I keep in the glove box, and see just what it’s cost us so far. Care to guess?
Disclaimer: I do write down down the maintenance and repairs I’ve done or had done, but I’m not so anal as to keep every receipt for every fill up or case of oil. So I’ve done a bit of rounding and averaging, but nothing that should throw things off too much.
Depreciation: $15,000 ($18,000 purchase price new (no sales tax), less current street value of $3,000) I’m being conservative, as I see these on craigslist for quite a bit more, as they’re very popular here. But then it does have piston slap, which might turn off a prospective buyer, at least in the winter. I wouldn’t feel right about not disclosing that.
Insurance: $3960 After about five years, I dropped down to liability/uninsured motorist only. That’s been running about $240 per year.
Registration: $388 Oregon is pretty cheap. Used to be $26/yr, now it’s $43/yr
Gasoline: $13,500 Based on 24 mpg average (lots of city driving), and using the average annual price of gas for each of the years driven. Also, it was driven mor ein earlier years than more recent ones. Not perfect but close enough. Cheapest: 98¢ per gallon, January 2002, Long Beach, CA. I told my kids “you’ll never see it that cheap again” I was right.
Maintenance: $1440 (Total)
Maintenance Subtotals: Tires: $716 three sets of Michelins from Costco, $330 (fourth tire free sale) for first set, $216 second set, $170 third set (second and third set adjusted for not meeting 88k tread wear guarantee) Keep those Costco tire receipts! The Forester chews up tires rather quickly for some reason. Oil changes and filters: ≈$330 Fifteen DIY @ $12; five farmed out @ $30. Air filters (4), and two sets of plugs, and one set of plug wires: ≈$100. Wiper blade refills and head light bulbs: ≈$100 Brakes: ≈$125 Three sets of front pads and one set of front rotors (DIY install, and very easy at that) Auto trans fluid flush/replace $70.
Professional Repairs: $1250 2x rear wheel bearings replaced: $360; Timing belt and water pump at 100k miles: $550; Two front axle shafts replaced (broken boots): $340
Total Costs: $35,538 Or 24¢ per mile. Not bad.
Of course it’s possible to drive cheaper, mainly by avoiding the big depreciation hit. I should tally up what my ’66 Ford has cost me over twenty-five years. But the Subaru had qualities that were fairly unique at the time, and I spend enough time keeping our old houses and other old vehicles running, so hunting for used cars was not on the radar. We wanted something new, and I tend to be a buy and hold kind of guy.
Needless to say, our Forester has been a very reliable vehicle, and hardly a pampered one. I’ve done only the most minimal amount of maintenance I thought was necessary (7k miles between oil changes avg). Coolant is still original. Rear (drum) brake shoes are too.
Like so many Subarus of this vintage, it developed piston slap right about the time the warranty expired, at about 80-90k miles. It sounds like a diesel on cold mornings, and then it goes away once the engine warms up. The explanation is that Subaru used too short of a piston skirt in an effort to reduce engine friction, which allows the piston to wobble in a cold cylinder. Runs just fine otherwise. And this motor has never needed a drop of oil between (long) oil change intervals; I long stopped checking the level.
The automatic transmission started having a one or two second delay when first going from reverse to drive, after backing out of the driveway (cold). That was also at around 90k miles. I had a transmission fluid change, but it made no difference. It hasn’t gotten any worse or otherwise changed. Otherwise, the four speed automatic is as stupid as it was from day one, in terms of downshifts. Nothing serious, just a bit annoying.
This has mostly been Stephanie’s car; totally so since I got my Xb five years ago. I took it for a drive recently, and it still feels very solid: no noticeable squeaks or groans. The interior has mostly worn quite well. I did have to replace her cassette/radio, having been worn out by all her books on tape ($10 junkyard). And the interior clock died some years back.
The Forester has never let us down. Compared to the ’85 Cherokee it replaced, the difference is phenomenal. Stephanie still loves it, which is a good thing, as it may stay around for a while longer. How much is a good question, but now that the depreciation is essentially used up, it may only get cheaper to drive. Hopefully, anyway.
You are very fortunate to have not paid for a head gasket repair. That repair is inevitable on Subarus of this vintage.
Inevitable, eh? As in death and taxes? Maybe we shouldn’t keep it….
More Inevitable than 3800 Series II needing intake gaskets…
I do agree with ciddyguy. If its not currently leaking, then the Subaru gods may have blessed you with one that will never leak. It is common for the head gaskets to begin leaking externally as young as 60k miles.
Given that it is often an external leak, I wouldn’t loose any sleep over engine damage. Find a trusted Subie mechanic in Eugene (I know there are some good ones in good ‘ol Lane County) and take it to them for the next oil change. While its there have them give the car a look-over so you can decide to keep or sell (usually a small inspection is complementary with a LOF).
Foresters are good cars and since yours has treated you so well thus far, might as well drive it into the ground!
If you like the car, and it is in otherwise good condition, getting a good independent Subaru mechanic to change the head gaskets may well be worth it if you get another couple of years out of the car.
As mentioned over at TTAC, my 2002 Legacy wagon has been far from problem free – the “inevitable” head gaskets and the manual transmission / centre diff being the biggest unexpected failures – but now that I’ve got it fixed it seems solid again and I expect we’ll get another couple of years out of it.
When assessing a repair, I don’t really look at the current worth of the vehicle as much as the cost of my next most reasonable option – in most cases even an expensive repair is cheaper then replacement. Plus then I would have to figure out what to replace it with, not too many choices in affordable AWD wagons with manual transmissions these days.
I’ve never figured out my ownership cost per mile, but I figure it would be higher than $0.24 – the big difference would no doubt be depreciation from the higher $31k starting price (cars cost more in Canada…). All the expensive repairs amortized out over 190k km (118k miles) probably only amount to a few cents per mile. My routine servicing would be a bit higher, and we spent more on tires as we run separate Winter rubber – but I doubt that cost is material over the life of the car.
Or a wheel bearing on the rear. One of the dealerships I worked at as a young tech sold Subies, and they were always eating rear wheel bearings.
What I like about them, though, is that they are what I’d call a mechanic’s car in the best sense of how they are constructed. Fluids are easy to change and Subaru tells you to do so, and makes it easy for you to do so. Everything is bolted together very logically, there are few really stupid part placements destroying serviceability. Older Toyotas were like this also.
As a VW tech, I would always marvel at how easy the timing belt was to change on newer Subies. Fire up your air ratchet and the belt practically falls out and back in before you can even blink. On a VW, though, it is a knuckle-busting nightmare no matter what model, at least at the time. Or you have to remove the front bumper cover and the bumper itself and slide the whole radiator core support forward like a drawer because VW didn’t see fit to make servicing the car any easier. Blame it on the n-s engine arrangement all you want, but you don’t have that insanity on a Subaru.
My old SVX used to eat rear ball bearings as well. So it’s a Subaru thing then? The nice Subaru dealer in town always replaced them under warranty each time…
Of course later it eats its transmission just outside the warranty period. I had to pay for its rebuilt myself. That’s it for me.
Our 2000 Legacy is on it’s second second of head gaskets. Otherwise, it’s a great car.
The info may be as dry as Melba Toast to read, but interesting none the less and the fact that you have 150K on the original rear brakes, the coolant and not had to replace your head gasket yet says good things about this car.
My guess is, if you’ve not had to replace the head gasket yet, it may well hold out another year or two but will it make it to the milestone of 200K miles before blowing? That’s the question.
So far I’ve made it 236K on my Ranger and though it now seems to consume (or leak it more likely) a Qt of oil monthly and the coolant is quite orange in color in the radiator and there is murky coolant in the overflow bottle these days but the coolant still does not show any signs of oil mixing within, nor any coolant lurking in the oil, yet. Oh, I’ve been told the coolant system leaks as the reservoir bottle was found to be empty at the time of the oil change back in Sept at Precision Tune when I took it in for an oil change, of which I’d accidentally let go 3K miles longer than intended.
It still holds the temp at the R in NORMAL, pretty much all the time and the battery that was fairly new when I bought the truck in 2006 is still holding out pretty well so far despite the white corrosive stuff around the terminals these days.
But even I know it’s getting very long in the tooth these days but still starts and runs just fine otherwise. Oh, I have the brake idiot light come on briefly (a sec or so) when I partially apply the brakes, it’s sporadic in nature but it still stops just fine and I need to hop onto Ford Forums in the Ranger section to see if the brakes share the reservoir with the clutch since both are hydraulic but there DID seem to be plenty of fluid though it’s in a need of a total flush and replacement though, along with the coolant, power steering (and I have a sneaky suspicion that it’s leaking slowly too), only the oil has been changed recently.
Good luck with your Forrester Paul!
Having just put on the first 600 miles (which puts it up to 21,431 on the clock) on my ‘new’ ’05 xB, I’d really be curious to see your long term figures for that one. So far, two tank fulls (my style filling which means tapping the automatic shutoff at least three times) has me averaging 31.5 for my daily commute – 45% 55mph state highway, 55% stop and go traffic lights.
First time out today with one of my vintage 10-speeds on the Yakima roof rack (both wheels stay on). The car looks absolutely comical that way, it appears to be taller than it is either wide or long.
Yes; we’ll get to that one of these days. Your fuel mileage is exactly like mine, for mixed driving.
It hasn’t needed a thing, except for a clutch throw-out bearing, under warranty.
It looks like you have done well with your Forester. I ought to sharpen up my pencil and check on some of mine. I am self employed, so I track my fuel costs every year. I also keep all repair receipts, but my filing system has sort of gotten away from me over the last few years, and need to get stacks of papers into their proper files. I have also paid my mechanic instead of DIY in recent years, so I am sure that I will not beat your numbers.
My 93 Crown Victoria may be my best. I bought it old and used, so no depreciation. Also, it has been a very good car, so now I will have to get busy and find all of my receipts.
Good post, I have been thinking about getting a Forrester to replace my Cherokee.
My ’03 H6 Outback has been our overall best car, I’d say–no detectable piston slap (though I live where there are few cold mornings) and no head gasket issues yet as of 111,000 miles. (It may be that the H6 has fewer, or other, problems.) I have had wheel bearings redone, at about 95K.
The H6 doesn’t have the same issues, and it was designed with input from Porsche (for whatever that’s worth).
Excellent writeup! Our 2007 Outback required new head gaskets at 38,000 miles, under warranty. It’s been flawless for 30k since. Otherwise a well engineered and thought out vehicle. Sometimes I wish I had sprung for the H6, but only after I got my used Acura and have gotten to appreciate the additional torque… And auto transmission (yea, I said it).
I learned the record-keeping bit from my Dad, and have at least gas expense records for every car I’ve owned since I started driving. It would take a bit of digging to put a total together for my daily driver (’00 TDI New Beetle), but out of the digital records I could get to quickly, my fuel expenses looked like they average around $.07/mile. Timing belt changes alone will drive that up a bit – it was about $1300 the last time I had it done – thankfully with 100K mile parts (original belt and pulley were only good for 40K).
The car has 202,000 miles on it and still has the original clutch. Brake pads only replaced once so far. Forth set of tires. On the third timing belt.
I have a pile of undercarriage parts ready to install when I can take it offline for a few weeks – the suspension has gotten pretty rattly sounding, and I figure I might as well do everything while I have it apart (clutch, CVs, brakes, tires, etc.).
Now that I’ve seen the “new” Beetle in person, and like it, I’m really starting to debate whether to do all that, or replace with a new TDI when they are available in 2012… It really boils down to $28K or so for new vs. $2.8K or so (plus time and aggravation) to refresh what I have and drive it another 5-10 years – the TDI should easily go that long, if the rest of the car holds together.
My first Impreza was a 93 that had something north of 200k miles on it, and I probably put a good 30k on it myself before I sold it. I blew the head gasket myself on that one, but it’s too embarrassing a story, I don’t really want to admit what i did. It’s still being driven by the guy I sold it to (although he plastered the back end with a crapload of bumper stickers). I followed it up last year with an ’03 Outback that had 90k when I bought it, and, yeah, there’s piston slap on the 2.2l. Head gaskets were fine, though. I read on the Outback forum that if the 2.2 develops head gasket problems it’s gonna be early, and it affected something like half of the cars they produced. But anyways, it warmed up and never ran funny in the 10 months I had it. My current ’03 Impreza has the whole piston slap thing, too, but it’s equipped with the 1.5L boxer (life in Japan necessitates sacrifices of torque and power) and runs fine when warmed up. It makes me wonder if the piston slap is less of a problem and more of a characteristic of the Subaru boxer motors.
I am looking forward to shopping for another Subaru when I return to the States. Based upon your experience (and building upon my own with the brand), it looks like it’ll be more fun than painful. I want a Forester next, I think. Maybe a generation newer than your green one. With the gigantic sunroof…
Same transmission? Argh….my Trooper is on it’s 3rd at 190k. I also manage to get only 50-60k out of a set of shocks.
I love keeping cars and running them forever. I’m too cheap to trade every 4-5 years. That said, setting money aside for the ultimate costly repairs is necessary. The Trooper will have its timing belt and water pumper replaced at 200k.
Paul – no holiday decorations??
THREE in 190k? What are you doing, feeding it sand? Are you not changing the fluid? Do you deliver pizzas in the desert while towing a travel trailer???? Good lord, get a cooler, use synthetic fluid, do SOMETHING!
The only transmission I ever had fail on a personal car (and I routinely run them over 200k also) was from mudbogging and getting a bunch of water in it, and not knowing until it started to sing a week later.
That doesn’t sound so bad. My ’02 Accord ate three transmissions in 95K. Thanks, Honda, for lowering my standards of reliability to a 1970s level.
Dave: Yes, the few lights I’m willing to put up better get themselves up asap, otherwise…
My late grandfather (another anal err detail oriented engineer) always tracked his expenses on every car he owned. I think he even graphed it, I’ll look for that tonight.
Anyway although it’s interesting it’s not terribly useful because it’s strictly a backwards look, you can’t do anything differently going forwards based on the data.
Hey, I found some stats! No graph though:
1952 Mercury Meteor – 5.4 cents per mile (in 1963)
1963 Chevy II – 9.3 cents per mile (in 1970)
1964 Rambler Classic – 9.0 cents per mile (1973)
1967 Chevelle – Bought new, 99,230 miles – 9.2 cents per mile (1975)
Grandpa was a stickler for recording his expenses, and included a lot of the data in the memoirs he wrote as a retirement project.
Now once we stick that into the inflation adjuster that yields:
1963 5.4 cents = 38 cents in 2010 $
1975 9.2 cents = 37 cents in 2010 $
That’s using a US $ adjuster, but probably close enough. I’ve been interested in these kinds of old ownership costs, and it tends to confirm what I’ve suspected: that the cost of driving has actually gone a down a bit, with the very reliable cars of recent times, despite increases in fuel costs.
Thanks for that info.
Cool, what surprised me here is that the car he bought new had the same unit cost as his used cars. For that to pan out you have to hang on to it for a long time. As I recall it was still in good shape when he sold it, so he probably got decent money as well which lowered the average.
I don’t want to pick on Paul here, but there are two things about this post that bugged me a bit. And when I say pick on Paul, it is rather nitpicking on this type of post.
The first is hidden costs. I’ll throw out two examples here. Broken cassette player replaced with junkyard unit. Then also the trans fluid change (nevermind — I just saw that was added in. my bad). Larger point: there are a lot of little things that never get added in.
Second is MPG and the definition of city driving. “City” is so damn variable that it doesn’t mean anything. City to mean means 40 minutes to go 2 miles — and only a hybrid can help with that.
Once I get that off my chest, a fascinating look into a how gets used. I have all the records of my 97 saab — well, six months are missing because of a break-in — and I’d hate to add that up. Head gasket, purge valves and clutch cables start to add up quickly.
What is even more distrurbing is whether the knowledge gained is even worth anything, or am I going to turn into a 50 year old with a cheap-ass clunker that drive to its grave. I hope all the hours aruging over which grade of synthetic oil is worth it will pay off…
Well. I did forget that I replaced the battery ($40?) once. But little tiny expenses like that really don’t affect the total cost (and per mile) to any significant extent.
You chose well with your Subie. I just finished an exasperating weekend replacing the SECOND battery in my 07 Honda Fit (60K miles). First was under warranty, and they all seem to be good for 2-3 years in a cold climate. The car uses a peculiarly small battery (that seems to have no other application). The good news: at least there is an aftermarket version now. The bad news? Instead of $64 at Sam’s Club for the next bigger size, the correct size is $145 for the Bosch at Pep Boys. Another reminder why my tastes have run to cheap old American cars.
And before anyone posts that the next size will squeeze in, it requires cutting the battery tray, monitoring rubbing from the engine and a terminal shim. This car is too new for the backyard engineering that is the subject of our other recent thread.
jpc: I find that new car batteries last about 7-9 years here. My Xb is still on the original (7 years). Moderately cheap aftermarkets last about 5 -7 years. Yes, lead acids hate being cold, just like people!
Paul, as I said, my goal wasn’t to pick on you. Clearly $40 or $10 here and there isn’t an issue — and dont change the equation.
But if I had a dollar every time a relative told me about his Honda or Toyota that is absolutely reliable — except for the SRS sensor, tranmission, gasket, new rotors ever 20K miles, bad tire sensors, brake regulator and what not that they forgot about replacing.
And a related issue is what is the lifespan of a car, really. 150K always seemed like a real benchmark. Not many are that nice to drive after that mark.
You have a valid point. Our memories are selective. Which is why I keep a little log notebook in each car’s glove box.
I will say the Forester feels about the same now as it did five or seven years ago. It really is aging quite well; just doesn’t feel old yet.
Funny, I’ve owned several Hondas ranging from Accords to Civics to currently a 2002 CR-V and 96 Accord LX and have never had any of those issues. My friends just bought a 99 Outback Special Edition and they have broken down with it 3 times already. It has 66k miles on it and so far it has been an absolute nightmare. I have never had a Honda that has been bad like that, and my current 96 Accord runs flawlessly at 212,000 miles. My CR-V has 100k on it and has also been 100% trouble free.
I just added up what it cost me to drive my Acura TL for two years:
Cost of car: $9000
Depreciation two years $3000.
Tires: $580
Insurance $2400
5X Synthetic oil Changes
and one Tire rotation $540
K&N air filter $72
Tail lights $17.52
Premium Gasoline $4225
Total $10,254.50
KM driven 32,500
Total cost $0.32 per km or $0.50 per mile.
This is in Canuckistani Pesos, so in US dollars this is less than one cent a mile, as we all know,
Clearly, buying used pays. I might also add that the car will need a timing belt change next year and this will really change these figures.
In relation to Paul’s figures, here in the Lower Mainland we pay exorbitant insurance costs because the government runs all basic PL/PD and a Chinese kid driving a Ferrari (and yes, the government MUST sell him insurance) pays the EXACT same basic insurance as I do on a 12 year old car. We also pay much more for gasoline, over the two years I have paid $1.30 on average.
“Clearly, buying used pays.”
That depends. Some cars hold their value well – but still need expensive servicing like timing belts, tires, etc., soon after purchase.
In this case, it may actually be cheaper to buy new. Late model used Civics probably fall into this category.
Probably the lowest cost per mile would be a reliable car with rapid depreciation – an Impala would be a good example.
At the end of the day, you’ve got to drive what you like – even it it doesn’t yield the lowest ownership cost…
I agree with the used Honda thing. I bought my Fit new in 2008 for $15,000 plus tax for a total of $16,800.
Almost four years on, it is still worth $10,000. This is very low depreciation and the TCO is like:
Depreciation: $6800
Gasoline: $3200
Maintenance $400
Tires: $400
Insurance $4000
Total cost of ownership $14800
KM driven 41,500
TCO: $0.036 per km or $0.57 per mile.
The used Acura is still cheaper. Over time, however, the Fit will have a lower TCO.
The secret to buying a good used car is doing your homework, having the time to really look and having cash to buy it.
What? No batteries? My 07 Fit had one battery replaced under warranty at about 2 years old, and I just replaced the second. The forums are abuzz with grousing over batteries that seem to last 2-3 years anywhere that it gets cold. And worse, smaller and lower capacity = twice as expensive.
Otherwise, my experience probably echos yours.
You say the coolant is original ? I would hope it was changed with the waterpump at 100K – coolant isn’t meant to last twelve years.
The Scoobie has lasted quite well , apart from those wheel bearings.
We currently have 3 Subies, 2 Foresters (’02 and ’03) and an ’02 Outback, all with the 2.5L SOHC engine. You are indeed lucky to have gone that far without needing head gaskets (try searching in the Forester or Outback forums). Our ’03 needed them just before warranty expired and that was due to my persistence with the dealer about an oil leak. The ’02 Forester needed them at 80K miles. It can be done with engine in the car but with not much more effort you can pull the engine and make it easy. If you’re into that sort of thing…
My clock did the same easy fix take clock out and there is a bad solder cant remember where but fixed the problem and worked since I have an 01 forester