(first posted 8/11/2012) Remember the Triumph Stag? You could be forgiven if you don’t, since a perfect storm of limited production, the propensity to rust in North American climes and an engine prone to overheating did in the few that landed on our shores. I don’t recall ever seeing one in person, but thanks to our down under Cohort contributor Bryce, we can revisit these attractive drop tops that looked good on paper but failed a bit in execution. Let’s take a closer look.
The Stag started its troubled life as a styling experiment based on a pre-production Michelotti-styled 1963 Triumph 2000 MK I saloon (above). Harry Webster, Triumph’s Director of Engineering, loved the prototype and shepherded its development into a luxury/sports tourer intended to compete with the likes of the Mercedes SL. The Stag protoype’s styling, especially up front, represented a new direction for both Michelotti and Triumph.
The Stag’s basic front end design was also used on the MK II version of the Triumph 2.0 and 2.5, which arrived a year before the Stag. Although some small parts may be interchangeable, the Stag and the Triumph saloon did not share basic structural body components, but did use identical fully-independent suspensions.
Unlike the two-seat TR6 and Spitfire, the Stag was not meant to be a sports car. With its long, 100″ wheelbase and rear seat, it was instead a grand tourer in the spirit of the contemporary Mercedes 450SL. It utilized a monocoque chassis, a fact that might have necessitated a T-shaped roll bar that was covered when the convertible top was up. It really marred the top-down look of what was otherwise a very nicely styled vehicle. Initially, an optional hardtop was available; it was made standard later in the production run.
image: britishv8.org
As Rover’s corporate cousin since BL’s 1968 formation, it would have been easy for Triumph to use the Rover V8. Instead, they designed their own, an overhead-cam 2.5-liter V8 powerplant with fuel injection. Although essentially a twin-bank version of the Triumph slant-four first used in the Saab 99, their major components, such as heads, did not interchange. After the original Bosch FI turned out to be problematic, the engine, now enlarged to three liters, received two Zenith-Stromberg carburetors. This 3.0L V8 produced 127 hp and 142 lb-ft of torque. A four-speed manual transmission was standard, and a three-speed Borg-Warner automatic was optional.
The interior was very clubby, with a wood dash, full instrumentation, electric windows and leather buckets–all of which were expected in a proper grand tourer.
The Stag V8 had serious design deficiencies that went well beyond stereotypical British issues involving Lucas electrics and such. For instance, the camshaft roller link chains had an extremely short lifespan, sometimes of less than 25,000 miles. Main bearings were undersized. Heads were prone to warping, thanks to poor castings and insufficient cooling flow. Water pumps failed prematurely. Many have had their engines replaced with the Rover V8 (ex-Buick), Ford Essex V6, Buick V6, or others. The Stag made many “worst cars” lists, but die hard Stag lovers have learned how to mitigate the Triumph V8’s issues, and original-engined Stags are sought after by collectors.
In total, just shy of 26,000 Stags were made; 1977 was the end of the line. Very few remain today, but many, many car enthusiasts love them (just look at these three at a show–yet another photo by Bryce), and there are several dedicated Stag clubs in the United States and around the world.
These are quite handsome cars, in my opinion. I’m glad such a pristine example crossed a CC reader’s path, because I don’t know if I’ll ever run across one in Illinois. Has anyone else seen one lately?
In our shop, we had one customer who had a Stag, a rather elderly woman but sharp as a tack. She thought the Stag was cool but keeping it running took regular dollops of time and money. Everything on these cars was difficult, diagnosis hard on them, often multiple issues, stripped bolts, etc…
Eventually the block cracked and we put in a Range Rover V-8. Dropped right in and ran a lot better. It actually ran!
The HSE Range Rover’s V8 is a Ford 4.6 Litre V8 engine. Isn’t it?
No, it’s an enlarged version of the 3.5 Rover V8 – nothing to do with the Ford engine.
Does anyone know if the performance level was worth all the trouble to keep them running?
For that kind of effort and expense, I’d just as soon have an old XK-E (or something Italian). At least they’d be a lot better looking.
An XK-E would be more effort and (a lot more) expense! I would think they have always been at least twice the cost of a Stag.
The Stag wasn’t a performance car – reasonably quick in its day and made a lovely sound, but it wasn’t what you’d call fast.
Evidently, it performed best sitting still.
https://nihilistnotes.blogspot.com/search?q=Unique
It’s not the performance level which seduces people. It’s the sound, the feel and the surprising practicality. The only issue of note is the engine but it’s a big issue in seven parts and while these days it can be made more reliable, it’ll never match the robustness of the Rover units or other swaps. The industry legend is that the Triumph V8 ended up in the thing because a reference to the Rover engine as “not a good fit for the Stag” was interpreted as “won’t fit in the Stag” (neither of which were true) but there were concerns also about the capacity of Rover to produce sufficient engines. A solution might have been for Triumph to take up production of the discontinued Daimler V8 which easily could have been enlarged to 2.8 litres to take advantage of tax rules on the continent and thus configured it’d have been a much better car although, given British Leyland’s rare skill in stuffing up, success, while more likely, wouldn’t have been certain.
Although less problematic than the Stag V8, the Edward Turner designed Daimler V8 was no match for the Buick/Olds/Rover 215 cu in V8, which besides being used for decades in Rover cars and SUVs, the Olds 6 bolt head version Repco V8 in 1966 competed and was victorious in F1. Sometimes the best answer is also the most obvious, unfortunately TR/BMC/Leyland didn’t see it.
BTW even the 4 cyl version SAAB bought from them needed extensive work by them to finally become the excellent version used for decades well into the 2000s.
A rather handsome one of these is usually parked outside an office down the road from me. I’m guessing that one has had the engine-it-should-have-had-all-along Rover V8 transplant though since it runs reliably and regularly.
The whole Stag V8 thing is another of those foreheadslap moments for BL – seems essentially to have been one of those daft internal politics decision (as if Triumph wouldn’t be Triumph using it’s former competitor cum-stablemate Rover’s engines) which scuppered an otherwise good design.
Another design `inspired’ by the Corvair front-end. Triumph/BL was no BMW however.
A recent episode of Wheeler Dealers http://www.streetfire.net/video/wheeler-dealers-triumph-stag_2019446.htm is devoted to restoring/improving a Stag. Their final result is breathtaking!
I watched that episode, which probably inspired me to write this CC. Wheeler Dealers is pretty entertaining; my dad and I watch it all the time.
Agreed.
That Edd China is a genius! 🙂
Don’t recall seeing one in real life, but one of the characters in the BBC show New Tricks drives one. Now I understand why a junk dealer in an episode offered scrap price for his “It’s a classic!” prized possession.
I did see one on the road a couple of years ago.
There only real redeeming quality is the beautiful music they make as you run them through the gears, if no one has messed with the exhaust.
They do have a pretty solid structure for an open car of its time.
They aren’t that fast and they don’t handle all that well. The IRS like that of the TR6 squats heavily when power is applied making it hard to keep the tires planted.
None the less driving one does put a smile on your face when the top is down. A shop I worked had a customer with one and since I was the one tasked with tuning it and a couple other things over the years that is how I got to drive one. Thankfully the carbs took some work to get perfect throttle response which meant more driving time.
“…the beautiful music they make as you run them through the gears, if no one has messed with the exhaust. ”
+1. That sound! One of the best exhaust notes, ever.
Solid for an open car…..
Because its got a scaffold around it like a building thats under construction, its not really an open car, these would look better without the superstructure.
Its funny that they did a similar thing again 10 years later when they came out with an XJS convertible in 86 or so.
Now why couldnt I get the clue? I knew that colour looked familiar, Damn. There are several of these Stags around here one that lives close by is a daily driver commuter beast so reliability can be found. Triumphs were very popular in NZ and locally assenbled huge numbers survive and thrive.
Golden Gate Park, March 31, 2012.
They’re out there still.
Nice! I really like those alloy wheels. The Stag is one of the few convertibles that look better top-up than top-down (or with the hardtop in place, like this one), thanks to the “Targa T-Top.”
I have seen that one, though I last saw it at least 5 years ago. I saw a blue Stag in Bar Harbor Maine this past summer.
The only impression it made on me…was a few billboards promoting it.
Never saw one in person. I knew, as a kid, the Triumph was one of those traditional open sports cars (like Sunbeam and MG) and somehow there weren’t nearly as many around by the time I could start seriously daydreaming about buying a car.
Then the Stag name came, and went. And Triumph…became a niche manufacturer (TR7) and then a dead marque.
There’s one local to me – a white hardtop. It’s a V8, but no idea whether it’s still the Triumph mill or a Rover. It sounds beautiful though, with a very fruity burble. As Bryce points out there are loads of Trumphs left here in NZ, so whatever version sought won’t be too hard to find! I find the styling of the Stag/Mk II 2/2.5 sedan intriguing. I don’t think they’re beautiful as such, but both Stag and sedan are unusual and distinctive, which makes them winners in my book. Oh, and here’s another interesting engine swap that can be done: pop in the Nissan RB25DET straight 6 – a local company used to do conversion kits to pop these into Triumph sedans, and it’d be an exciting choice for the Stag too!
Another car that I have never seen. I understand the built-in rollbar thing, more recently used in 1990s Cutlass and also PT Cruiser convertibles. But does this one also employ frames around the front side windows? I agree with some others that the top-up photos make the car look better than the top-down shots.
goddamm bl and all there chaos bullshit,this car is a real all so ran,it could realy have been a best seller when you consider how great triumph were in the 60s they realy were a top nptch company but then they became part of bl and it was all over ..shame..and its not inspired by the corvair ..what,lol,lol
A red Stag has shown-up at a local car show for the past couple of years. It gets a lot of interest from people wondering exactly what it is, including myself the first time I saw it. I don’t recall what engine is in it.
Stags are fairly common here in the UK, you see swarms of em at car shows.
At the time they were cheap cars, something that is often forgotten about British cars- to have competed with Mercedes would have been some achievement.
There really was nothing much wrong with the Stag apart from a cooling system not up to dealing with a V8, that combined with sand often left over from casting in the engine waterways combined to cause the overheating. Nowadays with those problems sorted and electronic ignition they are a reliable car. Such a pity Leylands’ QC problems spoilt another good design.
Most survivors have the BW 35 autobox, 4sp plus O/D manuals sometimes turn up. The V8 used twin Stromberg CD 175 carbs (quite common on UK Cars) and made 145bhp.
The Stag’s rollover bar was not because it was a monocoque, per se (so was the MGB, remember), but because it had quite a bit of commonality with the Triumph 2000/2.5 saloon, whose structure was never intended as a convertible.
The Triumph V8 was conceived well before the Leyland merger — in fact, it was conceived before Rover bought the ex-Buick V8. The Triumph engine wasn’t an afterthought on the slant-four design; the two were conceived at the same time. (In fact, because of Triumph’s deal with Saab, Triumph used the V8 before it ever used the slant four in a Triumph production car.) Standard-Triumph had really wanted to use the V8 in the 2000/2.5 saloon as Triumph’s answer to the Rover 3500, and planned to introduce the V8 in the Stag first to make sure all the bugs were worked out.
As for “the engine it should have had from the start,” it’s important to remember that the Stag’s design was basically finalized by the time of the merger between Standard-Triumph and BMC. (The Stag was slated to debut in 1969, something like a year or a year and a half earlier than it actually did.) Even if a company decides it makes sense to share bodies, engines, etc., that kind of commonality isn’t instantaneous, and BLMC had a lot of other things to deal with — the new management team was startled and distressed by the state of BMC’s future product plans (or lack thereof), and sports cars were not considered a high priority (also a reason why BLMC didn’t do much to sort the Stag engine’s issues).
Furthermore, Rover’s V8 production capacity was not infinite, and they had their own products to consider. Within three years of the merger, a lot more people wanted V8s than Rover could build. One could say BLMC should have expanded capacity, but that would have taken money, which BLMC did not have, and because the cars for which everyone wanted the V8 were low-volume luxury or sports cars, well…
If the Triumph V8’s issues had been sorted (which as Jimmy notes would not have been terribly difficult to do), it could have been quite a good engine. It was a fine design in many respects — It sounded nice, it had good breathing, and it produced about as much power from 3 liters as the Rover did from 3.5 — but the execution was not yet there.
it’s important to remember that the Stag’s design was basically finalized by the time of the merger between Standard-Triumph and BMC
Yes… but It’s also important to remember that Triumph’s potential access to the Rover V8 came when the Leyland Motor Corporation absorbed Standard-Tiumph (in the early 60s) and then bought Rover in 1967 – all well before the formation of BLMC, and early enough in the Stag’s development (internal politics permitting) for the engines to have been shared.
Naturally production capacity for Rover’s V8 wasn’t infinite, but if the resources spent on developing an (effectively) in-house competitor to it had instead been spent on expanding capacity…
All if which is not to say the Triumph V8 wasn’t a fine design, but it was a flawed one and it wasn’t necessary.
Leyland’s acquisition of Rover was in 1967, British Leyland was formed in 1968 — I don’t know where one would get “well before” out of that. Also, at the time of the acquisition a) Rover and Triumph had been arch-rivals for years and b) Rover was just getting the aluminum V-8 into production for its own products. The P5 3½ Litre debuted at Earls Court in 1967, followed about six months later by the P6 3500, with the Mk1 Range Rover set to go into production in fall 1969 and the P8 — intended to succeed the P5 — in the works. That was quite a lot for Rover to take on as it was.
Second, the whole point of the Stag V-8 was that it would have commonality with the new Triumph slant 4, allowing future Triumph models to share an engine family. That made plenty of sense, at least on paper, and it wouldn’t have made a lot of sense to throw it away at that stage.
Even if Leyland had remained focused on Standard Triumph and Rover and not been given responsibility for basically the entire British auto industry, it would probably have been another (auto) generation before they would have sorted out how to commonize engines and platforms. They probably would have eventually, but when you have two rival automakers with separate product portfolios, deciding what to do with all of it doesn’t happen overnight.
“but the execution was not yet there.” ― That epitaph sounds awfully familiar with British cars.
Generally it sounds like the BL merger was like Yugoslavia, a forced lash-up of very different cultures only held together, in the latter case, by Marshal Tito’s personality.
The marketing guy in me says that if you are production limited, as the Rover aluminum V8 was, it’s time to raise the price!
Oh, if you get the chance to hear the real Triumph Stag engine, you will get it. It’s a very cool sound. The looks back up the engine. The problem was lazy owners, who refused to bother with some basic maintenance. I have this Stag in running condition, and it has a nice feel on a 2 lane highway at 60 MPH it purrs. At 80 MPH on the freeway, you will get use to the 3500 RPM’s, but a 4th gear would have been much better. Here is a photo of mine.
Undersized main bearings in a British-designed engine?
Say it ain’t so!
While we’re on the subject of The Sceptered Isle, how did a country with weather like that end up with so many lovely convertibles and motorcycles? Seems to me, they should have led the world in weatherstripping design and galosh innovation rather than cool bikes and drop-tops.
Convertibles – The British want to take advantage of the few nice days they get.
One thing I have discovered is that no matter what make and marque of vintage, veteran or classic car one has there is always a tyre-kicking sneering critic, who has never owned or driven one, who can tell you that the vehicle you have has numerous faults and is a pile of junk. I have owner my 1975 Stag, among other classics, for nearly forty years and have driven just under 500,000 kms and yet it still has the same engine, virtually untouched, has never overheated or had any of the highly ridiculous problems that all ‘the experts’ tell stories of. I might add that the car has been thrashed from the late 70’s through to the early 2000’s up to 200 kph and it is still largely all original. It seems to me that many who have bought a Stag from the 70’s try and change it to something that it was not and to be able to compete with modern aspirated engines with far greater horsepower and with more sophisticated technological innovations such as Ferrari, Porsche and Aston -Martin. Look after it, don’t sod-around with it by trying to change it, and you will find it was and is a great car
Had Triumph been willing to continue working with Saab on further engine development, than an alternate Triumph V8 might have resembled an early precursor to the Saab V8 prototype engine.
The design of the Triumph V8 allowed for engine sizes of around 2-litres to 4-litres, while the related Saab V8 could have allowed for engine sizes to be increased from 4-litres to as much as 4.6-litres+.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_V8
i always thought they were very cool. here’s a ’71 that i caught in the wild:
https://flic.kr/p/oN5DUM
A great piece. I was watching classic, early 70’s reruns of the original “Let’s Make A Deal” game show with Monty Hall about a year ago, and a newlywed couple had won a brand new Stag.
I immediately wondered if they kept it (and for how long), or if they sold it. I’d like to think they got about a year out of the use of their beautiful, expensive new GT before they sold it to buy something they could fit a baby seat into.
Yup. I watched one where a lady won two 73 Firebird’s with the 455. I always felt sorry for “price is right” folks who always won a Vega.
Oh those silly Brits. Could screw up a wet dream. Hate to think what would have happened if they had not acquired that gem of an aluminum V8 that GM tossed out like a used condom when the orgy was over. Some uninformed people, who have never lived with one, will tell you they are flawed. I as someone who lived with one from ’66-84, will tell you they are not. Their track record speaks for themselves. And you cannot believe everything you read on the ‘net Ours? exactly one valve job around ’77 or so. Still had the original water pump on it when we parted it out. And any future comments on this engine better come from real life experience. I am sick of the regurgitated internet lies.
Why was it parted out?
In the case of Rover who acquired the 215 Buick V8 engine from GM, they would have probably put their P7 Inline-6 into production later updating it to feature DOHC, 32-valves and fuel-injection along with the odd turbo.
With the Daimler V8 instead taking over from the Buick-based Rover V8 and Jaguar going through with plans to increase the displacement from 4.5-litres to 5-litres.
GM had high wastage in producing the aluminum blocks of the 215 cubic inch V8. They obviously liked the design as it was used for decades in cast iron, in V6 and V8 iterations.
GM kicked it to the curb because it was expensive to build, and too small displacement wise. Not because it had issues. Carl Kiekhaefer, founder of Mercury Marine wanted desperately to buy it from GM for marine use. Would have been a awesome, groundbreaking stern drive package with his then new MerCruiser I/O. But he had just sold to Brunswick, and they said no, because as we all know, the stern drive is just a fad…
William Martin-Hurst of Rover actually stumbled onto the V8 on a visit to Mercury Marine.
I live in Southern California and have owned a 1972 Stag for 15 years. It is an amazing car to drive. The engine note is to die for. It just purrs. Comfortable and can keep up with modern traffic. Always a head turner. When you close the door it sounds like a bank safe perfect click.
Triumph Stag 1972.
Do you still have it, and do you still like it as much?
The V8 motor M8
I’ve seen these a number of times, but it’s been many years since the last one. I also recall that early in the Bond film “Diamonds are Forever” a Stag was driven by one of the bad guys.
Kind of “Afla Romeo” like from the back/sides.
The Stag is very good-looking. I’d like to have one as a hobby car, definitely not as a daily driver. My department head in San Francisco ca. 1976 owned one, and it was in the shop a lot. I imagine you’d need to be a department head to afford the upkeep. I moved to Los Angeles a year later, so I don’t know how the car worked out for him long-term.
Here’s a Stag with Triumph 2.5PI engine swap, brought down from Vancouver, British Columbia, for the 2022 Western Washington All British Field Meet. I talked to the owner a bit, but I didn’t think to ask him how he’d sourced the engine.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/12119356@N00/52634526878/in/pool-curbsideclassic/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/12119356@N00/52634042336/in/pool-curbsideclassic/
They did have a short half life, even here in California and having something of an eye for unusual cars, I don’t think I’ve seen one in the wild since the 70s.
My perception is having the V8 was that they were a performance car, which apparently they were not. I do recall them looking nice though and knowing they were supposed to be an upmarket car.
One thing that never ceases to baffle me is the marginal/inadequate cooling systems, especially the radiator. Yeah, radiators were relatively expensive then with the copper/brass construction, but enlarging it to a triple or even quad core, or whatever, wouldn’t have been much on the manufacturer level. Now on this one I’m sort of giving Triumph/BL a pass as they had so much company, many manufacturers on an assortment of continents undersized them in varying degrees. Things are different today of course, for a variety of reasons, but the expense even in warranty for a blown head gasket or more, would have been huge compared to a more robust cooling system, let alone the customer reaction.
’twas a good looking car though.
The only Stag I have ever seen was in PA. in the early 1980’s. Owned by a car salesman with a small collection of older M-B’s and Triumphs. At that time, his Stag was powered by a Rover/Buick 215.
Just around the corner lives a white one which main purpose appears taking the kids to the icecream vendor on warm summernights. Without any expertise: it sounds rather like a fat US V8. Latest local trends in taking kids to icecream, classicwise, are the Citroen Mehari or a opentop Land Rover. So the Stag remains rare
Those interested in the Stag might want to check out the ‘For the Love of Cars’ episode about it. The fellow who does the work on the cars started out a hater but really came around on it by the end.
Another reason for the Stag’s engine problems: BLMC’s purchasing department cheaped out on the head gaskets.