The “revival” of Talbot did not last very long (1980-1987) and engendered precious few new models. Most Talbots were legacy cars of the ex-Chrysler Europe empire, i.e. Simca and Rootes. Aside from the ill-fated Tagora and the Matra Murena, Talbot did create one new car during their short renaissance that initially sold quite well, the Samba. Let’s take a look at that missed opportunity in more detail.
Summer 1979: the resurrection of Talbot
Just a quickie refresher for anyone in the back of the class who forgot about Talbot: it was originally a British-made French car, which later got split either side of the Channel. The French side was bought by Simca in 1959, while the British side was killed off by Rootes in 1955. Both Simca and Rootes were then bought by Chrysler, which proceeded to scuttle its short-lived European empire through mismanagement, underfunding and tough luck, only to sell the whole Anglo-French (and Spanish) affair to Peugeot in 1978. Peugeot rebadged nearly all the models as Talbots by MY 1980. For a more detailed history of the British side, read this; for more on the French side, read this.
The 1980 branding catastrofuck: Chrysler Sunbeam and Talbot Simca made by Peugeot-Citroën…
In 1978, superminis accounted for about a third of car sales in Europe. The likes of the Renault 5, the Volkswagen Polo, the Fiat 127, the Ford Fiesta or the BL Mini were making a killing. Chrysler Europe’s offerings in this segment were somewhat lackluster: the Simca 1100, which debuted back in 1967, and the Chrysler Sunbeam, whose antique RWD platform screamed “stopgap”. The new Horizon was to way to go, so Chrysler’s product planners chopped a few inches (and the rear doors) off one to see if that did the trick. Unfortunately, that’s as far as this experiment went: Chrysler could not afford the development costs. Peugeot came to the rescue and ditched the whole idea.
Indeed, Peugeot had a supermini of their very own since 1972, the 104. It came in two distinct flavours (and wheelbases): the four-door saloon and the tiny “104 Z” hatchback coupé. Using the 104 was already well-trodden ground for Peugeot. When they rescued Citroën in 1975, Peugeot’s first move was to create the Citroën LN – essentially a 104 Z with an Ami 8 flat-twin. In 1978 came the Citroën Visa, a 104 saloon platform with a Citroën body and a choice of either Peugeot’s 4-cyl. or a 650cc Citroën twin. Neither model exactly broke any sales records (though the Visa eventually found its clientele, once it had a bit of a facelift), but they allowed Citroën to be present in an essential segment with a modern product quickly and for relatively little cost. Now that Peugeot had ex-Chrysler plants in three countries to keep busy, the 104 platform would do just fine.
Talbot were still semi-autonomous when the Samba programme was undertaken. As such, Talbot engineers figured that the 104 Z platform was too small for the car they wanted, so they lengthened it a bit. They were also determined to avoid the Citroën LN’s pitfall – too obvious a clone – and shoot for as much Talbot sheetmetal as they could. In the end, the 104 gave its front door frames (but not its outer skin), as well as its hood and hatch. The rest of the car was Talbot-only, and the car’s family resemblance with the rest of the range was carefully crafted. Engine-wise, the capable but heavy (and noisy) Simca plants were not part of the package. The Samba ended up with the 104’s all-alloy OHC 4-cyl. in either 1124cc (50 hp DIN) or 1360cc (72 hp DIN) form, with a 4-speed manual for the former and a 5-speed for the latter.
The black decal that was used in lieu of badges peeled off long ago…
The Talbot Samba was launched at the Paris Motor Show in October 1981. After the previous year’s ill-fated Tagora and the not-so-new Solara, it was the first completely new Talbot made under Peugeot’s auspices. And the last, as it turned out. The range consisted in three trim levels: the standard LS and the better-equipped GL had the 1.1 litre engine; the GLS appeared in early 1982 with the 1.3.
And in the spring of 1982, a surprise beckoned: Peugeot had co-opted their old partner-in-crime, Pininfarina, to design a Samba cabriolet. This was an unexpected – and welcome – addition to the Talbot range, heretofore devoid of ragtops. As the 1982 model year came to a close, the numbers seemed to indicate that the Samba was a big hit: about 120,000 units had been shifted. The cabriolet had its moment in the sun, too: for a while, it became a must-have on the Côte d’Azur when the Aston Martin was in the shop. The future seemed bright, but storm clouds were already gathering.
The problem wasn’t so much the Samba itself as the Talbot range and marque. The range consisted in rebadged Simcas that were looking stale (except the Horizon), as well as a range-topping Tagora that, while new, was a complete bomb. On top of that, the Poissy plant suddenly became a hotbed of industrial action in the summer of 1982. Strikes there were marked by previously unseen levels of violence, which carried on into 1983-84, exacerbated by the economic downturn France experienced at the time.
Talbot sales dipped in 1983 – including the Samba, which barely registered 80,000 sales. That autumn, the Peugeot 205 debuted, and the Samba became old-fashioned overnight. A panicked Talbot tried to rekindle some of the old Simca magic by proposing the Samba Rallye, with a 90 hp engine and go-faster decals, as well as the Sympa limited edition (our CC).
This “Sympa” was merely a Samba GL with colour-coded stripes, seat piping, inside trim and wheels, along with a sunroof. Yellow ones such as our CC were the most common, but there were also blue and red ones for the 1984 model year. This was all for naught as Samba registrations for that year went down to the 40,000 mark. Peugeot knew by now that Talbot was a lost cause. The Tagora was already consigned to the dustbin of history along with the Matra contract, but the rest of the range (Samba, Horizon, 1510, Solara, 1100 van) soldiered on to 1985, with predictably dire results. The Samba declined to less than 20,000 units that year and under 7000 the next; the plug was mercifully pulled at that point. The last Talbots were made in Spain (mostly Horizons) in 1987.
Talbot did not sink without a trace, though. The Horizon replacement (tentatively dubbed Talbot Arizona) became the Peugeot 309. A revamped supermini (above) was also in the works, which was recycled as the Citroën AX. Of all the Talbot cars of the ‘80s, the Samba was doubtless the most successful and long-lasting on the curbsides of Britain, France and Spain.
Automotive journos at the time described the Talbot Samba as the best version of the Peugeot 104. It managed to eschew the Citroën Visa’s unhelpful weirdness, the Citroën LN’s image and performance issues and the Peugeot 104’s staid and dated looks. The fact remains that the Samba was based on a ten-year-old platform that was never noted for its dynamism. In a highly competitive segment that now included an increasing onslaught of Japanese FWD hatchbacks, the little Talbot was a modest one-year wonder, tragically undercut by events and by its parent company’s launch of the supermini par excellence, the 205.
Related posts:
Automotive History: Talbot – Almost Invincible, by T87
Automotive History: The Rise, Decline And Fall Of The Rootes Group, by Roger Carr
Car Show Classic: Talbot Tagora: Never A Chrysler, Nearly A Peugeot, by Roger Carr
Wow! you need a flow chart to sort out who made what,when and where. Describing the lineage reads like what as a kid in Sunday school used the call “the Begats” in the old testament. Like David begat Saul, who begat Ruth, who begat Simon 🙂
But they do look pretty cool. Always loved hatchbacks and have owned many in my life. I particularly like the Chrysler Sunbeam S. A name from the past renewed.And the Cabriolet looked good too. Wish there was a shot with the top down.
To me, the Samba just looks like the European version of the old “anonymous” cars that featured primarily in ads for car insurance. You know, where the car looks vaguely familiar yet you can’t quite say which make/model it is.
It might be the black and white picture but the cabriolet looks like a modern 2 door version of the old Volkswagen Thing. Definitely a car where the color chosen makes a huge difference in it’s attractiveness.
In the great scheme of things, Simca’s greatest contribution to the world may be providing the basis for the Omnirizon. The $1 Peugeot paid for all of Chrysler Europe probably bought Iacocca a good cup of coffee. Last I heard, Peugeot was still using the old Simca works in Poissy, but the Simca product line was quickly snuffed.
Would Congress have looked at Iacocca and his drawings of the K-Car, with any confidence that the thing would actually sell, if Chrysler was not, at that moment, proving they actually could produce a car anyone wanted, by selling Omnirizons as fast as they could make them?
Agreed. In fact, Chrysler’s entire “diversification” binge of the 60s was the exact opposite of that undertaken by Studebaker a few years earlier. Where Studebaker used a little cash and lots of tax loss carry-forwards to buy into mostly good companies, Chrysler used lots of cash to buy into mostly weak companies.
Studebaker’s purchases replaced the dying car division and indirectly exist to this day. But Chrysler liquidated them all at fire sale prices (not that they were worth much by the time Chrysler got done starving them of money or otherwise screwing them up) and barely managed to save the car business in 1980-81.
I’d buy this too. The UK cars quickly died and SIMCA based products (Alpine, Horizon, then Peugeots) filled the UK factory space. In reality, Peugeot got Chrysler UK FoC as part of the Simca deal and gained a whole chunk of UK market share. There was little justification for buying it.
The Poissy works ins still going strong, and is one of Peugeot’s key sites. The Talbot/Simca products did die away although the engines continued in service for several years. The Peugeot 309 had a lot of Simca/Horizon genes.
USA Omni / Horizon used totally different suspension and engines from the Simca bits in the European Horizon. Strange for a ‘world car’ to not actually share parts!
That is a true unicorn. Yes, it is probably the populous remaining Talbot, but that’s still very very rare now. I can’t remember when I last saw any Talbot (or Chrysler Europe) car on the UK’s roads.
My first true breakdown was in a 104 SR, when the car overheated twice in a few days as the head gasket collapsed. Still like them though – I’ve seen a few 104s and LNs in France recently but not a Samba.
Great write up.
I remember these, if vicariously. I was an avid reader of auto, motor und sport during these era, and followed the Talbot fiasco from beginning to predictable end.
Peugeot bought Chrysler Europe for the production capacity the brands contained within the deal had been mis managed into the ground already.
I can reveal that at least one Talbot-badged car was sold in the U.S. — my family’s 1982 Peugeot 504 Diesel wagon came with rear mudguards that had the Talbot logo on them and, if I remember correctly, also featured the word Talbot.
I’ve never inspected another of similar vintage closely enough to know if they were all like that, or this was some sort of factory error.
A bit later in the 80s, the Peugeot 504 pickup was briefly sold (in the UK, at least) as a Talbot, with the Talbot logo replacing the lion on the front.
That’s bizarre! Never seen one like that, and I saw a lot of 504 wagons. Odd because PSA kept the Talbot brand quite separate from the Peugeot and Citroen brands. It must have been a factory error. But its odd that it would fit, and I doubt any Talbots were being built in the same factory as the 504. Beats me.
I had to crop this from a 2008 photo that wasn’t great in the first place, but you can see the Talbot badging. We bought the car new, so it definitely came that way from the factory. I noticed it right away, because as a (then) devoted reader of CAR magazine, I was following the Talbot saga too.
The only explanation I can think of is that they were already producing the Talbot-badged 504 pickup, and that enabled the mixup. Even then, odd that the mudflap for the wagon would have been the same as the pickup’s …
Is that a Peugeot logo next to it? It looks like the Talbot logo is only taking up one half of the space on it.
Yes, I think it is! I hadn’t remembered that the lion was there too, I guess because that’s the logo one would have expected.
In the UK there were Peugeot-Talbot dealers and it was common to see the logos together. Presumably those mudflaps were originally intended for such a market. Vauxhall dealer mudflaps similarly had Vauxhall, GM, and Opel badges lined up together.
Are you certain 504 pickups were badged as Talbots? The vans were (and were unavailable with Peugeot branding in the UK) but every 504 pickup I ever saw had Peugeot badges and I can’t find reference to it online. (but didn’t search extensively)
I’m guessing it had to do with economy of scale. It probably fit the Tagora too, since it was 504 based. Frankly, mud flaps are probably almost close to universal; just screw the inside part to the inner fender, and whatever sticks out is what one sees.
Yes, I’m sure about the Talbot-badged 504 pickups; the fact that I can’t find a single image on the internet to confirm it almost has me doubting my memory, but I was living in the UK then and one doesn’t forget something that strange (and blasphemous to a Peugeot fan!).
I presume it was an arrangement that didn’t last very long — maybe just a year or less to fill out the line of commercial vehicles for Talbot dealers …
Talbot were folded into the Peugeot corporate structure in 1982 or 83, ending any semblance of autonomy that Talbot still had up to that point. Talbot (ex-Simca) dealerships were given the choice of selling Peugeots, which some ended up doing, or severing their ties to Poissy. Many opted to switch to Ford, Opel or Fiat at that juncture. Similarly, official Peugeot documents always referred to the company as “Peugeot-Talbot” — this lasted well into the ’90s on dealership signage, letterheads, parts catalogs, etc.
So I’m not totally surprised that they made mudflaps with the two marques side by side. I am very surprised that they would sell a 504 with a Talbot badge. That sounds very wrong on many levels. Could it be some disgruntled ex-Rootes dealer did this for fun or something?
By contrast, Peugeot were always careful to keep Citroen’s operation — including dealerships, research facilities and suppliers — separate from the Peugeot side. Citroen and Peugeot were roughly the same size in the ’70s. Simca were a dwarf in comparison by then, though they had been bigger than Peugeot in their ’50s heyday.
Could it be some disgruntled ex-Rootes dealer did this for fun or something?
In the US? No Rootes dealers here.
No, I mean the 504 pick-up with Talbot badges johnnyangel claims he saw – that was in the UK, wasn’t it?
The mudflaps don’t really count as badging IMO. Just an optional extra screwed on at the last minute, probably by the dealer…
Tatra: jonnyangel lives in the US. Here’s his original comment, in part:
I can reveal that at least one Talbot-badged car was sold in the U.S. — my family’s 1982 Peugeot 504 Diesel wagon came with rear mudguards that had the Talbot logo on them and, if I remember correctly, also featured the word Talbot.
I realize that he lives in the US and that his 504 wagon was US-bought (even I can recognize a California plate), but his original comment also read:
A bit later in the 80s, the Peugeot 504 pickup was briefly sold (in the UK, at least) as a Talbot, with the Talbot logo replacing the lion on the front.
That’s what I was on about. There’s no trace of these “Talbot 504 pick-ups” anywhere online. So perhaps an elaborate hoax by the disgruntled ex-Rootes dealer I conjured up? Johnny, you got us stumped here! Could any UK-based CCommenter chime in or investigate?
Tatra: your comment about the pickups didn’t appear until I posted mine. Yes; the question about the Talbot badged pickups is…a question. FWIW, I never heard of the 504 being sold as a Talbot either.
Looking at these now, they look quite fun and appealing.
When I was 18 I was offered a Samba very similar to the featured car for free by a family friend, and turned it down. I wouldn’t have been seen dead in it. Bear in mind, when I read on this site of people buying cars for their kids, it still strikes me as outrageous decadence, given my background. Still didn’t want a free Talbot 😉 .
Tatra, I love your articles.
Growing up, I read a lot of new and old issues of CAR and What Car so I came to learn a lot about the UK car market. This lead to me buying the A-Z of Cars of the 1970s and A-Z of Cars of the 1980s, two very good books. And in those, I read about Talbot and was utterly fascinated. Such an interesting story and brand, gone so soon after it appeared.
A year or two after the 205 came out, our family was looking for an extra small car, and those we test – drove included a Samba and a 205, with fairly similar engines.
But, as Tatra87 succinctly puts it, by then the Samba did feel old fashioned to drive (and to look at), compared to the 205 with its taut, secure, responsive feel and its chic profile – or even compared to GM Europe’s first generation Nova/Corsa hatchback, which also launched in 1983, and was a better car than you might suppose, we had two at various times.
Peugeot suffered from the common malady of Not Invented Here syndrome. Perhaps they really were clueless, perhaps they didn’t know what they had. Simca was a known entitiy in the cheap, cheerful, and reliable transport segment, if PSA wanted to they could revive the brand even today so many years afterwards. They could push it against Skoda, Dacia, Kia, and if ever Nissan got the same idea, Datsun. There was nothing wrong with the Simca portfolio, if only they had seen that the strength in the brand slotted beneath both Citroën and Peugeot.
Peugeot was fucking clueless in building competetive small cars, they really had nothing. The 104 was a tincan without even a hatch for its first five years. Peugeot had its strength in building 3-box sedan for the middle class. What they had was a slightly conservative bent, but with quality and consistency. And at the end of the day, the farmers don’t give a shit about quirky je ne sais quoi, what they need is a car that consistently works for them.
PSA botched the entire Talbot operation, because it was more or less just given to them without them wanting it. The Samba was made on shoestrings and running on vapour. The Horizon successor was reluctently given to Peugeot in the 309. The Alpine was left to wither and die, the Tagora even more so. The supermini ended up as the Citroën AX and the entire Matra operation was taken over by Renault. If they had hold their cards more close to the chest PSA could’ve owned the MPV segmentet several years before anyone else.
What did happen was an influx of engineering talent into the PSA r&d, where ex-Simca engineers developed the extremely succesful Peugeot 205. If any car stood the ground for cheap and cheerful reliable transport, it was the 205. And I don’t think it would’ve happened without Simca. A close look at Peugeot says they only hade the 3-box 305 in the Golf segment and the very stale 505 and 604 above it. except the 104 and its different offspring they really had nothing, and the 104 was over ten years old at the time.
So, the Talbot brand went into the ground, and with it any brand recognition that Simca ever had. But at least they injected some life into the parent company PSA making it able to survive another twenty thirty years. My opinion is that they wouldn’t have survived without it.
All agreed, though you’re a tad harsh on the 104…
It’s especially true that the folks who made the 205 were the same exact ones who made the Samba. The Poissy engineers were some of the best in the business for small cars.
It’s not unlike the Borgward guys who were poached by BMW: if you want a top-selling car in a new segment, get the fellows next door who are making the best stuff around to come and develop one for you.
In the ’60’s a friend who was pleased with his used Peugeot 403, told me that Peugeot made an interesting contrast to a major competitor: Volvo outsourced many mechanical components (the rear axle was an example) while Peugeot made everything in house. Just sayin’ . . .
My young friend found, in his owner’s manual, a diagram showing where to chisel the body apart should major surgery become necessary. And info on the sunroof drain system. Ah, the good old days.
I had one of those many years ago when I was living in the UK. Comfortable ride and seats as one would expect, the engine was clattery but that was offset by the regular 50 MPG. Other than the above it had nothing to distinguish it with. After a year I replaced it with a South African Ford P100 pick up which I suppose was on the other extreme of the scale but, at the time, suited my purposes far better.
Another great piece, Tatra87. I love the global aspect of this site for exactly this reason – new exposure to interesting cars I know / knew little or nothing about. I’ve been borderline-obsessed with the saga of Chrysler Europe / Simca / Talbot since another great piece (by Roger Carr?) on the spectacular failure that was the good-looking Talbot Tagora.
I remember seeing these Sambas in Europe in the mid-80’s, so seeing these pictures was a total throwback. I thought it was interesting that there was a cabrio version of these – which in the process of going from hatch to convertible, lost the really distinctive design feature these had: the reverse-slanting C-pillar.
I look forward to your next entry.
Amen to the above, thanks Tatra. I don’t know if you’ve mentioned this before, but where are you based? Your knowledge is encyclopedic!
I think the Peugeot 104 is interesting precisely because it is at the nexus of a bunch of significant (to me) auto trends. We may have chatted about this in the past, my memory isn’t great, so forgive me for any unintentional repetition.
I don’t know if there’s a standard ‘measure’ for how many different models are spun off of one platform, and I suspect there are several US/Latin American cars that rival these – but the variety to me is fascinating
So: the 104 began as a fastback sedan but gained a hatch (and the hatch supplanted the sedan I think – it has this common with the Civic, Alfasud, Ambassador (nee Princess)
It gave rise to a shortened car (a la Gremlin) – the Z – and LN/LNA, and Talbot
It was well badge-engineered (though 3 brands seems a little parsimonious perhaps)
In the Visa and LN/LNA it was sold with both 2 cyl aircooled and 4 cyl watercooled motors (again probably not unique but interesting) – I’ve read in Citroen car club literature that the innards of an LN/LNA are substantially re-engineered from the 104 base possibly precluding much profit / shaping Peugeot’s future attitude to Citroen versions)
In the Visa it gave rise to a 4-door convertible (as well as Samba cabriolet)
There were GpA (I think) rally versions of 104Z, Visa and Samba
There were at least 2 commercial vehicle derivatives (again, in the UK I may be unaware of more) – The LN/LNA and long-lived C15
I believe the Citroen Axel/Oltcit which look a lot like the Visa were largely unrelated?
My point is I’d love to see a picture with every 104 derivative in the same shot!
“There were GpA (I think) rally versions of 104Z, Visa and Samba”
Rally versions yes, but not Group A. Peugeot’s 104ZS Evolution / Evolution II models ran in Group 2 between 1978 to roughly 1982. In rally tune the Evo II made 140PS from 1360cc.
1982 is when Group B took over for Group 4, (Group A supplanted Group 2, but higher homologation totals were needed here) and all Citroen versions and the Talbot ran in either B-9 (under 1300cc) or B-10 (1300-1599cc).
Citroen had 3 distinct models. The first was the Visa Trophee (1219cc; 115PS) that ran in 1981-1982. This was followed up with the Chrono (1360cc; 140PS) from 1982-1984. The final model that came in 1984 was the Mille Pistes (1434cc; 145PS). This one is very different, however, as it was four-wheel drive.
The Peugeot Talbot Sport Samba Rallye (as it was known) came in 1983 to effectively replace the Visa Trophee. It had a trick engine combining the block and pistons of the Visa Chrono and the crankshaft and rods from the original smaller 1124cc 104ZS Evolution, to create a “new” 1219cc engine that had a healthier 130PS compared to it’s Visa Trophee predecessor. Now, none of these sound all that powerful, but when you keep in mind they all roughly weighed in around 1700-1900 pounds, that power goes a lot further than one would realize on paper. All these cars were really aimed at the amature side of the rally equation more so than legit works backed racing programs as a way to add manufacturers points and build publicity.
Get all that, lol?
Osella, I’m currently in Japan, but was in Myanmar until this summer and will go live in Thailand in the coming weeks. The Wandering Frog, if you will.
(And many thanks to cjiguy for all the info about rally cars, a subject I’m totally avoiding due to my complete ignorance!)
The Axel/Olticit as you say were pre-PSA Citroen designs and unrelated to the 104. They did provide the styling to reclothe the 104 as the Visa, and interestingly the rear suspension was adopted by PSA for the Peugeot 205, Citroen AX, Peugeot 106, 405, 306 etc.
Talbot lasted long after 1987. The UK-spec version of the Peugeot J5 was called the Talbot Express right to the end of production in 1994. That was the last ever Talbot on sale.
There are still some Talbot Express around, even pre-facelift examples as below, though they’re Motor Caravans which tend to be more pampered than ordinary vans.
Sign me up for the “cabriolet”!!
Some of these little hatchbacks made a tri to Lotus and were fitted with Elise engines and wore Sunbeam badging.