(first posted 11/12/2011) Alfa Romeo and longevity. Does that seem like an unlikely pairing? The Alfa Spider, a vehicle whose gestation alone ran a decade, was built for almost three decades. Longevity indeed; well, of some sort. In sports car years, the Spider’s life-span is almost an eternity, and the only competition was the Porsche 911, which went through more substantial changes. Whether the Spider’s longevity was a good thing or not, is subject to debate. But let’s just say not everything gets better with age.
Let’s start with a quick look at the Spider’s predecessor, the Giulietta Spider, which had a more typical lifespan of ten years, from 1955 to 1965. Designed and built by Pininfarina, it was a gem in every sense of the word, and a hard act to follow.
Pininfarina got an early start on what would end up its successor. The 1956 3500 Super Flow was the first of a number of design exercises that led to the production car ten years later. Here, the front end first takes shape. Not easy to see in this picture are the plexiglass fairings over the headlights and those “exposed” front wheels.
The second edition of the Super Flow was a bit closer to earth, but 1957 was still in the fin era.
By 1959, the Spider Super Sport already had the major design elements down, including the scalloped sides and the rounded tail.
The 1960 Coupe Speciale shows the tail here quite clearly.
The Giulietta Spider Speciale from 1961 might as well be the “concept” for the the final Duetto Spider.
The production Spider arrived in 1966, and was named Duetto, from a write-in contest. And who better to show off its handsome lines than Dustin Hoffman, in the 1967 mega-hit, The Graduate. And how much did Alfa reap from that fortuitous appearance? Perhaps it’s the biggest single reason for the Spider’s longevity.
The original Duetto was only built for two years, 1966 and 1967, with its plexiglass headlight covers and 109 hp 1570cc engine.
For 1968, the Duetto was replaced by the Spider Veloce 1750, which had a number of improvements including of course the larger 118hp 1779 engine, which even received a SPICA fuel injection system for the US. But the plexiglass headlight covers had to give way in the US, as the result of new 1968 regulations.
The biggest single change in the Spider Veloce’s long life happened in 1970, when the long tapered tail was chopped and filled in. It certainly looked more contemporary, but count me in as one of those that has ever since lamented that tailectomy. By 1971, engine size reached its final 1962 cc size, which was rated at a healthy 132 hp, at least in Europe. Needless to say, US emission regs began to take their toll about this time, and it’s probably too depressing to dig up the actual ever-shrinking hp numbers. By the mid-late seventies, the Alfa was increasingly more about style and tradition than leading-edge performance.
The Series Three Spider covers the years 1982 – 1990, and our CC car falls somewhere in there, but I’m not sure exactly where. The most blatantly obvious change was a black rubber spoiler, and that name is very aptly applied here. It was very painful to see Pininfarina’s brilliant original design be sullied like this, but, hey, it was the eighties!
Here’s a closer look, if you can bear it. I can’t. Next shot please!
Compared to the back, the front is almost bearable, if one doesn’t look below the front edge of the sheet metal. All things considered, and compared to abominations like the final MGBs, the integration of the front 5 mph bumper really isn’t all that bad.
Pinin, who died shortly after the Duetto appeared, was probably spinning in his grave when he saw how the last car he still had a hand in its design, ended up.
And in case you’ve ever wondered about the origins of the word Spider, just look closely at this picture. No. it’s not photoshopped, and I didn’t notice it until just now.
The Spider’s interior also evolved, but I’m not going to show all the steps. Well, except the first, because as usual, it was the best.
Isn’t that pretty much always the case? Maybe not, but I’ll take body-colored painted steel over cheap plastic any day.
At the time, I assumed that the Series Three Spider Veloce, including the rather bizarre hard-topped Spider Veloce Quadrifoglio had to be the final blow-out. Good riddance! I’m such a carmudgeon.
But no, in 1990, a fourth series appeared, with a concerted effort to leave the eighties’ gauche black plastic behind, and try to recapture a bit of the original Duetto’s clean lines. Or I assume thta’s what it was trying to do.
The rear was in for a more serious redo, and although it’s of course drastically cleaner, it also lacks any character. Dull, generic, anodyne. I’d long given up looking at them by this time anyway, unless it was an early one. At least the fourth series was a short ine; by 1993 the end finally arrived. I’m sure Pinin could never have imagined it lasting this long anyway, but it did keep a line in his factory going for almost thirty years until it finally graduated.
Paul,
The subject car of this CC is most likely a 1986. That was the first year with the redesigned interior – I can always tell ’86-’90 Series 3 Spiders from ’83-’85s because of the instrument cluster and the design of the shifter.
Thanks; then we shall call it an 1986.
An 86 would have the highmounted taillight integrated into the rubber spoiler. More likely a very late ’85…The license plate supports this as well, I had an early ’86 GTI with CA blueplate 1RSU678, the issue date of the plate on the subject car is several months prior to this. In CA the plate travels with the car upon sale even though it can be replaced for a fee. Most cars travel through life with the same plate as long as the stay in CA.
I was also under the impression that the new dash was a 1985 intro not 1986. I had an 84 with the older dash, much nicer with the twin nacelles..
The 86 has a rubberized rear spoiler that was changed in 84 for a hard plastic piece that looks much better.
The car on the photos is an1986, with steel wheels, competition style. The veloce did not come with Steel wheels but with Cromadora alloy wheels.
The graduate was a base car of the Veloce, which included Power Windows A/C and power mirrors.
This is my 1983 Upgraded Spider veloce, includes modified suspension, Engine, Headers, advance timing, 10.9.1 piston, 175HP, Cross drilled rotors, adjustable shocks, super sports springs, Euro headlights. 16 inch Dinamic wheels power door locks, power antena and much more.
Wow, very nice.
There was one of these in my neighborhood, moldering under a tarp for a long time. Red, of course, and likely from the 70s. It went away some time in the last year.
I have to confess that this is one car that never caught my fancy. Particularly after the tail was flattened, there just seemed something “off” in the styling. Looking at that rear photo of the red 71, I wonder why they did not continue the side scallop around the rear corners to transition into the taillights, which are exactly the same height. As it was, the scallop starts out bold in the front, then kind of forgets why it is there and just meanders off.
The Giulietta Spider that was replaced by this car makes me drool.
And I believe that they, in an absolute desperate marketing measure, called the car the “Graduate” for a couple of years? I cringed when I saw that.
Yes, it was a low-priced low-content version near the end. I cringed too!
Actually, they always had 2 models, the graduate, which was the base model and the Spider Veloce the upgraded version.
Below is my 75, 2.7Ltr 275 HP. Above is my Spider Veloce 1983 Updated
Not always.
ugh.
I remember seeing the fourth series cars at the Chicago Auto Show when they were new, circa 1990-92. I think they were sharp looking cars, and much cleaner than the previous black plastic-trimmed versions. I also liked the 164s of that era. Subtle, but with nice lines.
mmmm… I thought so too… and the 164 I drove was the prettiest car I’ve owned.
A beautiful car but thet really should have ended production by the early 70s before the bumper stupidity began and the US performance restrictions kicked in.
Agree. I can’t help wondering how many designs for a replacement Pininfarina came up with over the years, and why Alfa knocked them back. He can’t have liked what they did to his design.
If I remember my Wikipedia prowl on these cars 2-3 months ago, the early 80’s Spiders had the same spoiler, but body colored and were made black sometime after 1983, perhaps for the ’84 model year.
That said, these 80’s variants seem to be the ones most represented as I saw several of these from the 80’s this summer, a couple from before the black spoiler (a creamy yellow one), the rest, had the black rubber spoiler. No post 89 Spiders though I’ve seen them a couple of times over the years in the past and a couple of years ago, saw a red early 70’s I think spider, mostly all original, non restored still being driven and looked much like the red ’70 you show – virtually all of these in the Seattle area or out in Bellevue where I work.
Otherwise, I hardly see any other Alfa Romeo on the road outside of a vintage late 60’s or early 70’s GT coupe I think a year or 2 ago on my way to Tacoma and several FIAT 124 Spiders over the summer too.
No, the only ones with the spoiler were the series 3 spiders that started in 1983 that had the black one. There was the US only 1978 Niki Lauda special edition that had a body colored rear spoiler, but other than that, no spoilers on the series 2’s
1978 Lauda Spider
I really like the 1990s Spider, I think it is a beautiful redesign, especially compared to the 1980s monstrosity. They seem to be getting very cheap, and one day I’d like to get one as a weekend car (after all, as they say on Top Gear, you aren’t a true car nut until you’ve owned an Alfa).
Be different.
Instead of shoving the ubiquitous Chevy small block into the critter for propulsive power slide a slant-6 in.
Wheeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nah – Quad Four! 🙂
Uncle Tony’s Garage on YT has a 170 Slant6 Miata
Thanks for another brilliant write-up Paul – as so often happens you’ve shed light on something I’d never thought of before, but I suspect much of my MG antipathy stems from the contrast of this similarly long-lived design’s handling of 70s-80s safety bumpers. The Alfa manages to stay looking sleek and elegant while the MGs of my youth all looked like they’d had their snouts in the liquorice jar.
Incidentally, still eagerly awaiting that Automotive History piece on 5mph bumpers 😉
My dad bought a ’74 Spider new and commuted in it until it was totaled in the late ’90s. In retrospect it was a great car. Not as reliable as modern cars, but no more problematic than the US cars of the ’70s and ’80s that we had. I think it made it to about 250,000 miles before its demise, although the engine was rebuilt along the way. I think having a specialist Alfa mechanic was the key to its longevity.
Learning to drive in the ’90s, that thing was a blast compared to my other options at the time. I remember in particular the beautiful sound of the engine, the fancy wooden wheel, the lack of functioning seat belts, the oddly placed shifter, and the weird throttle knob that could be pulled out to set the engine RPMs at a certain level, sort of like a rudimentary cruise control. And the rust hole in the floorpan under the driver’s foot, through which you could feel the pressure of water spraying on the underside of the floor mat when you drove through a puddle. Also, it had the coolest feature – a foot-switch operated windshield washer/wiper – enabling you to keep both hands on the wheel at all times. I also remember its aggressive tendency to oversteer on even slightly wet pavement, and even at lower RPMs in 3rd or 4th.
I think the late ’70s Spiders were less appealing due to the rubber bumpers, and because the 1975 and onward mandatory catalytic converter robbed performance and caused them to run poorly. Supposedly the bespoilered 1980s models had regained the performance of the pre-1975 cars, but I’ve never driven one. I didn’t hate the rubber spoiler though; it seemed appropriate for the time. I never really liked the early boat tail versions though, but I suppose I’m in the minority for preferring the Kamm tail.
In my family the Spider’s duties as daily driver were taken over by a series of German cars from the latter half of the ’80s: a 4000 Quattro, an 8-valve A2 GTI, a 911, and an R107 SL. All but the Audi are still in use, with the VW serving as the daily. Of those cars, I prefer the GTI for the same reasons I liked the Spider. Both offer a combination of light weight, peppy I-4, and agile chassis, and both offer an engaging and entertaining driving experience that is greater than the sum of their specs.
Actually the 75’s and 76’s didn’t have cats. They had a redesigned exhaust header, air pump and retarded ignition that made them gutless and run poorly. If you ditch the air pump and go to a pre 74 header you can get the performance back. Cats started in 78 and also restored some performance. Avoid the 80 – 81 with the redesigned intake. In 82 they went Bosch motronic but kept the old S2 body style. 1983 was the debut of the S3, with the Giuseppe the Janitor look.
“the Giuseppe the Janitor look.” ROFL!!!!!
i forgot about the throttle knob! that was a nice feature. my father’s ’74 fiat 124 spider also had that as well as a manual choke. we always joked that his car was the poor man’s alpha. a beautiful girl one year older than me who lived up the street’s family had a red alpha spider. one day she stopped and offered me a ride. i was so dumbstruck in my teenage awkwardness that i was speechless for the whole ride but i still remember it clearly.
I remember seeing them with the ‘Graduate’ badge and thinking “oh how subtle” or “oh how desperate”….
I had a silver 1978 Spider. Funnest car I’ve ever owned, compared to a MK I GTI and MK II GTI 16V. I remember that it was the first rwd car I owned and I was astonished how easy and nonchalant it was to hang out the tail. I felt like I could sip from my cup of tea, fiddle with the radio and steer with the rear end without breaking a sweat. And this was coming from a fwd guy!
Drove a 1986 for a while when my cousin’s first wife got very sick for a time and couldn’t drive hers. Gods, going back to my high school in that thing was epic! Top down, slow cruise…so much nicer than my ’78 Arrow. The car wasn’t fast, but it was RED…and a manual tranny…with leather! I didn’t care! Nevermind that not long after my time with her (the car…not the ex-wife), the tranny completely gave up the ghost. Around that time, my cousin bought his 1st gen CRX Si, and never looked back (at his wife, or the Alfa). Still…good times…
Gentlemen and Ladies if there were any, Enjoyed the comments and learned alot. I have an 86 Veloce with 31K miles as of today. I love the car and everything about it. It has Pirelli P600’s on it and if I heard correctly those were what were the origional brand/type that came with the car. My car is in near perfect shape and I am babying it up to A+. Are there any Alfa chat lines that you all reccomend? Any help is appreciated. Thanks again guys and Im glad I found this link.
I have. a 1986 Alfa R omero Spider Pininfarina Graduate for sale with 89,000 original miles, I can not keep just looking at it sit anymore so if there is any body that is interested in purchasing the car it is White,with the black convertible top and boot to go with it.the interior is seriously a 7&1/2 Out of 8 and it has ran perfectly for the last 2 years then it doesn’t get any fuel and a can’t here the fuelpump turn on so that’s the culprate I believe.there is a dent in the front passenger light assembly that COUKD Be Fixed by a professional true Car autobody enthusiest.. The car is at our house in Minneapolis, Minnesota so it would be a local pick-up only price is to be decided bit it will be a fair price for both of us and by the way I have the original owners manual and the original bill of sale from the dealership I think it was somewhere around $26,000 Or so,if intereste E-mail jennrobb27@yahoo.com thanks
Robert, We’re not a free classified ad service. I’ll leave this one solicitation comment and picture up, but I had to delete the rest, as it rather clutters up the site. If someone sees this, they can contact you for more pictures. Sorry.
I stumbled onto this page while trying to figure out if a car I saw was a classic Spider, and I just thought I’d say that it was wonderfully written and informative.
Thanks! We have lots more; look around.
I wonder why BL couldn’t have done something similair with the MGB?They just gave up and left the sportscars for the opposition
Gem,
BL did not look to the external competition, and certainly not to overseas competition.
They had enough internally.
The Austin Healey, MGB, TR6 and TR7 all ran at times against this car, and each other, but seemingly never looked outside for a bench mark.
Thanks roger I’ve often wondered why BL had similar cars fighting each other in the showroom.
The problem for British Leyland was not that they were blind to the market (although they misjudged it at several points), but that they ended up not having enough capital to execute their plans as intended, at least not in a timely fashion.
The plan was supposed to be that the TR7 would completely replace the TR6 and MGB. (There was some on-again, off-again talk of an MG-badged TR7 derivative, which in surviving photos looks quite frightful.) When the plan was conceived, it looked like the U.S. roof crush standards were going to outlaw convertibles (which probably would have been the case had Chrysler not won a lawsuit that resulted in a specific exemption in the standard), which made developing new open models seem pointless.
Due to BLMC’s various financial problems, the TR7 didn’t arrive until 1975 (and not until mid-1976 in the U.K. and Europe), something like two and a half years behind schedule. That meant continuing the TR6 and the MGB and adapting them to the new bumper regulations — something BLMC had wanted to avoid — so as not to starve their U.S. dealers.
When the TR7 did finally arrive, U.S. buyers and dealers’ reaction was “Meh.” Americans wanted cheap imported convertibles, since U.S. convertibles by then were gone or nearly so, and kept buying MGBs (and TR6s as long as they were available). The TR7 wasn’t designed to be a convertible originally and making it one took time, exacerbated by Edwardes’ confrontation with the workforce and the closure of Speke No. 2. BL very much wanted to dump the MGB, but their U.S. dealers wouldn’t have it because in their view, it would have been canceling a decent-selling product in favor of one that was difficult to move without special editions and incentives.
It probably would have helped if the TR7 convertible had been available at launch, but when the TR7 was conceived, it looked like such a car wouldn’t be legally salable in the U.S. and even when that changed, Rover-Triumph was scrambling to get the standard TR7 ready even without having to do a lot of structural reengineering. To launch with the convertible might well have pushed its U.S. debut back another two years or more.
This of course sidesteps the various legitimate criticisms of the TR7 and the fact that if you wanted a cheap closed sporty coupe, a Ford Capri was probably the better choice, but the weird internal competition was not something BL intended or wanted by that point.
Would love to have more detail on the Chrysler lawsuit and convertibles. That is a story I missed entirely. Did Iacocca lead this so he could build his K convertibles?
It was well before Iacocca went to Chrysler. When FMVSS 208 (the roof crush standard) was enacted, Chrysler sued the DOT/NHTSA, saying the agency didn’t have the authority to outlaw specific types of vehicles. A federal court agreed, which is why there’s the convertible exemption in standard 208. However, by the time that was done, a lot of planning and development work had already gone forward on the assumption that convertibles would shortly be illegal. Convertible sales had gone to pot anyway, so no one in Detroit really did any kind of about-face until later.
Iacocca said (I think to Car and Driver) that when he got to Chrysler, there was a general assumption that there was some federal regulation prohibiting them from building convertibles (the survival of the MGB, Fiat 2000 Spider, and Alfa Spider notwithstanding) until someone in engineering looked it up and found that was not actually the case.
The Austin-Healey 3000 was dead prior to the BLMC merger and didn’t exactly compete with the MGB in any case, since it had a much more powerful six and was a class up in terms of price. There’s a fair point to be made about the Spridget, though.
The MGC was effectively the ‘big banger’ AH successor.
There was also supposed to be an Austin-Healey version of it as well, but the Healeys thought it was dire and didn’t want to go ahead with it. And of course their subsequent A-H 4000 didn’t go forward either for various reasons.
All that was pre-merger, in any case.
It nearly did happen. Toward the end of the production run, MG was supposedly losing £900 on each MGB sold in the US, due to unfavorable exchange rates. This, along with increasing losses associated with operating the Abingdon plant were sited as reasoning to drop the MGB. Alan Curtis (of Aston Martin) saw value in the MGB, and formed a consortium in an attempt to purchase the rights to the MG name, the car, as well as the Abingdon plant. Aston’s Special Projects workshop put together a proposal for the “1981” MGB, and it has several notable distinctions. Besides the lightly reworked front end and blackened side panels, a new rear with relocated reverse/fog lamps was fitted, the GT windscreen and doors were utilized, a special Tickford cloth top was adopted, Tickford seats, and many small details like Wolfrace alloy wheels were fitted. Perhaps more importantly, the overhead cam O-series engine was intended to be available as well starting in 1982; MG had already gone so far as to do the engineering work and crash testing. Sadly, after much negotiation, the deal fell apart in the middle of 1980. Again, unfavorable exchange rates and high interest figures (plus a major downturn of Aston’s own sales) had evaporated much of the consortiums original intended offer. There were even sketches created of a very-Lagonda like wedge full body restyle planned for 1984 to help convince MG to follow thru with the sale.
Its probably my age but I much prefer the 80s version to the earlier ones. I also like the 80s 911 so that’s probably related!
I’ve always liked these cars too, I think I’d like an early 80s model with the older dash but the chopped tail and black spoiler. I’ve always hated the weird console and shifter though, I wonder how the interior would look without the console like the 60s version? This might make a nice little bargain classic car to hold onto.
My GF in HS had one of these with the Kammback. I loved driving that car. The shifter was a trip coming out of the instrument panel like that. I drove a Fiat 124 Spider a few years later and expected it to be inferior but actually liked it more. It felt more solid and torquier.
Anyone owned an Alfa and Fiat 124 Spider? How do they compare for durability?
I dreamed of owning one throughout the 80’s, and just as my budget could accomodate one, they gave it an exquisite facelift and dumped the black rubber! Bought a brand new 1992 Spider Veloce. Sorry! To date, l have owned 23 cars, and that Alfa was the WORST LEMON l have ever owned! EVERYTHING broke on that car! (Radio, doorlocks–manual, AC, speedometer, transmission, windows, top, seats, hardware, taillamps, ashtray, visors, wipers, etc, etc.) There were weeks when the car was in the shop twice. Parts inventory was non-existent. Service was lousy. And after all those years of “refinement”, the top leaked! I received a letter front ARDONA (Alfa Romeo Distributors Of North America) stating that Alfa was leaving the US market. I sent them a reply, “good riddance. ” l traded it on a 1994 Pontiac Sunbird Convertible–perfect record/no problems. I cannot imagine having one of these as a collectible–total junk. The one in the picture is for sale so the owner can pay for Xanax and a massage.
Ray,
My English teacher in middle school bought a new Spider Veloce in early 1993, the last year of production. He still owns the car and admittedly, doesn’t drive it a lot anymore – since we are both from Vermont, Alfas can’t be driven in the winter without being reduced to a pile of rust.
Every single year, that car has more issues than I can think of. At one point he couldn’t even drive it at night without the battery and alternator going bad due to the headlights – apparently the electrical system was causing a bad drain. Parts inventory is also non-existent, and he also had to wait for exhaust parts last summer.
My 1991 Volvo is two years older and has way more miles (almost 200k compared to his 51k), but is infinitely more reliable and durable.
To Calibrick, yes, l had both. The FIAT had 30,000 plus miles, and was vastly more reliable than the (new) alfa. Also, the FIAT was easier to service, and the rear quarter windows provide great visibility. Recommended.
The perception was the the 105 series Alfa’s were a bit more solid (both in body and driveline) that the Fiat 124s, so it is interesting that some find the Fiat more solid. The 124s in general were a bit less solid than the 1500/125 with the Coupe a little less so with its thin B pillars and the Spider convertible obviously even worse
My brother and I had a 124 Sport Coupe and a 125 Special respectively, and rust aside, they were quite reliable.
We both never owned an Alfa so never got to find out how much better (or worse) they would have been than our Fiats, and although I loved the 105 series sedans (I wanted a Berlina or Guilia as my first car) and the coupes,. I was never a fan of the Spider and much prefer the better balanced 124 Sport Spider design. Alfa’s brand equity and Dustin Hoffman have given the Alfa more credence than it perhaps deserved.
The Duetto had different-shaped vent windows in the front doors – did the change to the later shape occur at the same time as the tail was chopped? And did the windshield itself change too at that time? The A-pillar angle looks different from the Duetto to the Spider.
And if you look very carefully, the Duetto has an ever so slight recontouring at the tip of its nose to wrap around the logo.
A classic in every sense, but I never really liked the look of them. Very nice tracing of the lineage, Paul.
Always liked them
Always admired them
Always stayed away from them
MGB’s were cheaper and better built, simpler, shake ratlle ‘n roll cars and if you’d have a US import with the three wipers, you were da’man back then.
3 – wipers gentlemen, one of the most important features of an MGB.
“Always liked them
Always admired them
Always stayed away from them”
How very true.
Wasn’t it the Spridget twins that had the three wiper set up? I’m far from being an expert on these but do remember riding in friends’ MGB’s and they had two regular wipers. Another friend had an MG Midget (aptly named), and it did have the three “shorty” wipers. Apparently that was the only way BL could cover enough of the glass area and be in compliance with the applicable regulation.
I was fortunate to have owned as my very first car a 62 Alfa Giulietta Spider purchased in 1967 for $500. It had a lucas electrical system with a generator and a battery in the trunk. No surprise here that the car never started as it always had a dead battery. My 2nd was believe it or not was another 62 Giulietta Spider (this one was black, the first was white). Same deal, never started but the girls thought it was a Ferrari. I was 17 at the time and never had a clue of how much my little 1300cc powered car would be worth almost 40 years later.
Perhaps I’m just daft (a reality I’ll readily accept) but how does that picture of the “spiderveloce” script explain, in any way, the origin of the name? I mean, beyond the obvious QED, as in “they put the word on it and therefore that became its name.”
Having taken the time, over several weeks, to read the entirety of your combined output here at CC, I ask with all due respect.
Maybe you’ve noticed in the year, month, and three weeks since you asked, but there’s an actual spider to the right of those words.
This car’s availability overlapped the MX-5/Miata’s for a few years. I wonder how often these were cross-shopped, and which those who did most often wound up buying…
I had a 1986 model Spider Veloce. These cars have an unfortunate aerodynamic quirk. With the top up and a side window opened, it creates a low pressure area in the cockpit which sucks the exhaust gases back into the cockpit. Alfa tried to cure this by using an ugly downturned exhaust pipe, which most owners promptly cut off and replaced with an Ansa or Monza duel chrome upturned exhaust pipe.
One question to which we all deserve an answer – did this and its forebears influence the E type Jaguar? Can’t help thinking it probably did…..even if the Alfa took several years to transition from concept to production, and arrived second.