(first posted 9/6/2014) I recently returned from a holiday in south-west France, and note again that one of the pleasures of travel is seeing how different countries handle their heritage: What is considered suitable for preservation and what is allowed to age or decay peacefully.
For example, the UK looks after its stately homes and old castles pretty well, with a lot of public access and informed guides and visitor information, partly because of the relatively recent social changes leading to the changes in use of these buildings, and because they are often in the care of one of two national organisations. In France, such buildings (normally named as a chateaux or palais) are more likely to much more sparsely furnished, if at all, assuming they have a roof, and almost certainly in some form of private ownership.
Thinking CC, Britain is pretty well equipped with motor museums, compared with France, which has, as far as I know, has fewer major museum and collections, the remarkable Cité de l’Automobile (formerly the Musée National de l’Automobile de Mulhouse) excepted.
France though, especially in rural areas, has a very different attitude to older cars that have reached the end of their daily service lives. In Britain, it is very likely, almost certain, that such a car would be entrusted to the local recycling facility, and ultimately broken for spares and then the shell crushed. In France, it may well be entrusted to a much more informal local scrap facility, and allowed to gently decay and to be used a spares source. Or just allowed to gently decay.
The consequence of this is that you will see sights like this Renault 17 sitting against the fence of a small scrap yard,
or of this Renault 18 estate sitting in a barn.
The Renault 17 was a coupe derivative of the (often underrated) Renault 12 saloon, although fitted with the 1565cc from the Renault 16. The similar Renault 15 had the 1289cc engine from the Renault 12, but with a less dramatic rear window style and more modest twin rectangular headlamps.
Both cars had fully integrated bumpers and door handles recessed in apertures in the trailing edge of the door, in a way associated with the later Renault 5, and the 17 had frameless door and side windows as well. Style wise, to me at least, few cars say 1970s more than a brightly coloured Renault 17, which is a good thing, obviously; I much prefer the style of this car to the Ford Capri or original Opel Manta, for example.
The cars were marketed from 1971 to 1979, as a replacement for the Floride/Caravelle, in a similar way that the Karmann Ghia was replaced by the Scirocco a few years later. There was one revision to replace a chrome bonnet and grille trim with a body coloured one in 1976. The featured car has the later one, so I’ll call it as a 1977 (and be proved wrong by the CC Commentariat).
Looking back over the last 60 or so years of popular volume cars from Europe, we can identify an industrial trend for each decade – the 50s were the years of rebuilding, and recovery of national pride and industrial strengths, the 60s were the heyday of variety (FWD, RWD or rear engine?), the 70s were variety competing with conformity (FWD but how?), the 80s were convergence (towards transverse engine FWD), the 90s conformity (and some very bland styling) and the 00s were the decade of globalisation.
The Renault 18 fits this pattern, as Renault’s range converged towards something that much more closely matched in 1980, say, Ford or GM Opel than it had a decade before, and Ford and GM converged towards Renault as well. The 18 was the replacement for the 12 saloon and was based n the same platform, and itself spawned the replacement for the 15 and 17 in the Fuego (CC here). It was, to many but not for us at CC, a pretty ordinary front wheel drive saloon and later estate, with 1.4 to 2.2 litre petrol or diesel engines, four or five speed gearboxes and the usual French soft suspension, and 3 lugs on each wheel. It may well sound, and have been, fairly unremarkable, but it sold over two million copies in Europe and North America in nine years. Mostly in the former.
The Renault 18 four door sedan was sold in the US by AMC dealers as the 18i (for injection) in 1981 and 1982, and as the Sportwagon from 1981 to 1986. fitted with the usual fuel injection and emissions equipment, big bumpers, uncovered lamps, and in this case, two tone-paint on the saloons. Some of these specifications made their way to the European cars, as well as a market sector first 1.6 litre turbocharged version, known as the 18 Turbo.
This estate version is one of the first generation of 18s, so I’m going to call at a 1980 (and no doubt be wrong again).
Whether either is recoverable is debatable to say the least; however, it would great if they could be. In two weeks in France, I saw only one Renault 17, not one Renault 15, and only one other Renault 18. For the first time in more than 25 years of visiting France, I did not see a Renault 16 “in the wild”. And don’t ask about the Renault 14 – I last saw a moving one about five years ago
Or as General Charles de Gaulle, leader of the Free French from 1940 to 1944 and President of France from 1959 to 1969 might have said:
“But has the last word been said? Must these cars disappear? Is the decay final? No! Whatever happens, the flame of the French motor heritage must not be extinguished and will not be extinguished!”
I havent seen a Renault 17 in a very long time going or not,
That picture of the bright 17s is great! Those are nice looking cars that I’ve certainly never come across in person.
As for Renault’s chequered past in North America, well…Let’s sum it up. Big success with the cute but unfaithful Dauphines back in the 50s unfortunately created the Renault=unreliable legacy that plagued everything that came after. The R8s and R10s sold in decent numbers where I grew up in California but were rare outside the west coast. The R12 was a really quite decent car and better than many than a lot of contemporaries but when I looked for a used one as a teenager during the summer of 1979 they were really not to be found, even in the Bay Area, and I was interested in an R10 as well but they had become unicorns by then (I ended up with an equally underrated 1976 Fiat 131 Mirafiori, a really nice car that set a personal benchmark for handling and overall spirit that I still use as my baseline for comparison; few sedans today can match it. Oh, and by being diligent with the routine maintenance it was actually very reliable for the time.)
The R5 “Le Car” had some mild success through the 79-81 oil crisis, but the R18 and Fuego never sold in sizeable numbers over here. By the time of the AMC, ahem, alliance I’d say Renault was rather a spent force in the US. Did not set them up well for success with the Alliance/Encore, and the disastrous Americanization of the R9/R11 basically wiped out the brand.
Slightly different story in Canada – better dealer network, less brand loyalty, more urban market, better value proposition for Renault, kinship in Quebec (less of a factor than you might think – unbelievable now, but back then Quebec was a bastion of the big (and usually base-model cheap) American car, replaced every 2 years because road salt) . The mid/late 70s R12 Nordic (with a little Canadian pinstriping) was actually fairly successful nationally, and the R5 much more so. I had a friend in Vancouver in the mid-80s who had a mid-70s R17 Gordini, uncommon but not rare there. R18 never sold as well as they were overpriced, and as in the US with the AMC thing it all went pear-shaped. Strangest Canada-only model was the luxurious 6-cyl R30 (google it), competed with the Pug 604, Audi, Saab etc. Lovely cars, not cheap, can’t imagine who bought them but I’d see them around. Why Renault didn’t import the volume R20 is a mystery, but the story of French cars in North America is really an endless series of mysteries, miscues and lost opportunities.
Tell me more about your Mirafiori. My parents bought one from new; 1600 with auto. I remember the rear seat top disintegrating in the sun from the moment we bought it and because it was mum’s car it didn’t get pushed hard. I really liked how it looked, but the125 that was traded in for it felt like a more dynamic drive to this 8 yo Aussie kid. I wouldn’t mind a 131 wagon…
The disastrous Americanization of the R9 and R11? Whatever they did to them to make the Encore and Alliance, the result was strong sales until word got around that they were still as dependable as the Renaults that had come before. I had an Austrian auto magazine with an article about a long term test of an R9. They drove it for something like 60-80,000 kilometers and then disassembled it. They determined it was the worst car they’d ever tested based on the wear displayed and the number of things that went wrong trying to cover the required test mileage.
I think you have to go out of France to see classic French cars appreciated. In the Benelux and even Scandinavian countries, there is a huge scene devoted to even the more obscure Frenchies. Yes, in the Netherlands, Citroen Visas, Renault 14’s, and others are cherished and loved.
This is partly due to their tax system that offers significant incentives to classic cars, combined with the fact that these cars all rusted away early in their lives in the saltier climate. Thus, they have the novelty factor that they just do not in Southern France, where there is much more of a culture of driving a car until it is dead.
Probably the reason you don’t see them as much in the wild, is that the good ones have all been snapped up by northern enthusiasts in the same way that Californian MG’s and Jags have all been repatriated back to Britain.
I have even noted that the Belgians have a penchant for Austin Allegros. I had an Allegro estate that was rear-ended and written off by the insurance company. I was hoping to get a few hundred in the UK for parts, but a Belgian came over, paid four figures for a car with a salvage title, and happily drive it back to Belgium to spend who knows how much to restore.
British collectors tend to favor convertibles (which are oh-so-useful in this climate,) Germans love their ‘oldtimer’ Mercs and BMW’s, while the Benelux seems to be home to people who value small displacement family cars of the ’70s and 80s, which are often still in use as cherished summer time daily drivers.
We’ve got so many Citroëns ID and DS around here they’re not even special anymore. Most of them in a (very) good condition. The Renaults 4 and 16 and Peugeots 404 and 504 are other popular French classics.
Yet Mercedes is, by far, the most collected and common old- and youngtimer. All their models from the seventies and eighties, diesel and gasoline. The Mercedes organization also takes very good care of their heritage. Parts availability for old models is superb.
I owned a ’74 DS23 Pallas when I lived in Amsterdam in the mid-90s, at least I did until some jerk stole it, and I replaced it with a ’68 300SEL. I do remember there was a quirk in the tax laws back then that you paid vehicle tax based on the new price of a car, versus the sale price, so there was a good market for restored older cars – fun drive and cheaper to buy, tax-wise. (i.e. if the original 1968 price was $4,000, you would buy a restored car for $15,000 but only pay tax on $4,000.)
You certainly drove some nice sets of wheels in Amsterdam !
I haven’t seen a R18 since I left my country. Some of them even had headlamp wipers.
Metal bumper bars mean that is an early 80’s model.
I had the Majorette yellow R18 taxi. One of my favourite toys.
I always like the R15; it looked like a Gallic Alfetta GTV. Still trying to parse the various front end treatments for the R17 but that C-pillar is a tad… thick. Great finds, Roger.
My Fiat? It was a 1976 131 4-door, in what Fiat called “butterscotch” orange (ah, the 70s) with black vinyl. Your point about the seats is interesting. The dippy wealthy woman I bought it from in Corte Madera, California (in Aug 1979) said the seats had been reupholstered as part of a recall. I believe the 124 coupes and spiders were also affected. My upholstery held up beautifully, but I moved to Vancouver two years later so the car didn’t get too much California sun, plus was garaged apart from my high school parking lot (where I parked every day alongside a friend’s 1974 Fiat 128SL coupe).
My Dad drove a 1972 VW 411 when I bought my Fiat, and he so enjoyed driving my car that he bought a new 1979 Fiat 131 Brava Mirafiori, a dealer demo with 12k miles at Wes Lasher VW-Porsche-Audi-Peugeot-Renault-Fiat (ah, the 70s, again) in Sacramento. White with gold velourish cloth and dark brown trim; the Supermirafiori interiors were actually very attractive, even elegant. Actually, a great looking car that got a lot of compliments. But it was an automatic and horribly hobbled by California anti-smog regs. It handled nicely but was an utter dog for performance, still my Dad kept it for eight years and it was a great car for my parents after they moved back to Vancouver – my Mother loved driving it (so easy to park!).
I used to look enviously at the Supermirafioris with their big square headlights and bigger rear lenses. Ours was a dulled red before the Melbourne sun made it duller and had twin round headlights and the ‘big bumpers’ with the concertina rubber on the sides. Very, very handsome car; the last looker Fiat made. Saw a street Abarth for sale a few years ago, but IIRC the asking seemed too much. Not really looking for another car but if a manual wagon popped up I’d sure be kicking the tyres.
Wow. OK obviously I’d beg to differ but this is a fascinating choice for that statement…
Clearly beauty is a very subjective thing but looking at the 131 and thinking “last looker…” I can’t help but wonder how many subsequent FIATs you’ve seen? For example the 80s Regata – way down any list of lookers in my book – being essentially a refinement of the same design, or perhaps the chunky angularity of the 3 door 00s Stilo (again, not a car I’d usually cite for its looks!) would appeal to sir’s rarefied tastes? 😀
I jest of course. Genuinely fascinated by that comment though. Of all the FIATs to choose…
Yep, I’ve kept up with Fiats. Your yellow coupe had some appeal, but to be really honest I find so few cars designed since the mid seventies attractive, and so many cars prior to then attractive. No Fiats beyond the 131 despite my deep brand loyalty, although I don’t think they messed up on the new 500. Regatta? Nup. 132? Nup. Either 128 coupe? Nup. 128 sedan? Yep.
Its not a default setting, but Fiat and 99% of car design since then is meh or worse. There are aspects I enjoy about these cars, but as you said, it’s completely subjective. Sometimes I need to add IMHO to these statements.
I think I have to disagree on the 132. I once was given one, a runner with the usual poor bodywork, that wasn’t even worth advertising. Spent a few nickels on putting in new brake pads and tires and gave it a courtyard fresh coat of paint, and off it went like a dream forever. A late 1.8 model with tinted windows and a natural gas plant, it was quick, cheap to run, incredibly comfortable, dependable, smart in a dark-blue livery and tan velour fluffy sofas, held the road beautifully and stopped impressively well. Despite one of the best audio systems I ever had, I could still leave it parked in the street for weeks and never attracted any burglar’s attention. All in all, I consider it one of the best cars I ever owned out of quite a few – also exotic and fashionable – ones I have driven. Even better than my two 125 Specials that I previously owned.
Out of interest, Splateagle. What modern(ish) Fiats do you like the look of?
131s never enjoyed much of a reputation at home. Bread-and-butter, round-of-the-mill daily drivers, with the same old rugged twin cam and a rust-prone body. I remember the 1.6 diesel wagons were a hit at the time when gas prices went through the ceiling. The peak of the series were the competition models prepared for WRC, possibly the only survivors here. In italy, ’70s Fiats rarely make it to the status of “classic” to be preserved.
Have you guys seen this?
https://www.curbsideclassic.com/blog/the-car-to-own-for-thirty-years-and-500k-miles-nobody-picked-the-fiat-brava-except-this-guy/
I wonder if he’s still adding up more miles. I should find out and do an update.
Amazing. In a Fiat 131. Whodathunkit. Thanks Paul.
Fiat drivetrains are tough and easy to fix. Even back then. The body… that was another matter.
I wonder how many R18s or Sportwagons still exist here in the U.S.?
The other day I spotted which I believe was a R18 wagon, red color and in quite good shape, driven by an elderly couple.
In addition, few weeks ago, in the same area where I saw the aforementioned R18, I came across with this Renault R12, which I’ve attached pictures of.
Here in Spain you can still often see old Renaults in traffic. In fact, only the last weekend, I spotted two R4 and another R12…
Rear shot.
Nice. Built until 2004, as a Dacia 1310.
Source photo: http://www.zcoches.com/fotos/dacia-1310-fotos
I had a hair raising tow job with a Renault 18 with a blown engine behind a Chevy Caprice wagon.I did part time work for a back street garage picking up and delivering crepaired cars when I lived in Blackpool and we towed the Renault from Birmingham to Blackpool for an engine swap.
The Renault 17 was a nicer looker than the Fuego though I only remember seeing a few.Thanks for another great read Roger
Roger; another fine tribute to some Renaults that have been a bit under-loved in the US. Not surprisingly, I’ve actually shot both an R18 Sportwagon and an R17 here, but didn’t yet get to writing the R18 up. It looked to be a driver too.
And here’s the R17. I did do a short write-up on it: https://www.curbsideclassic.com/blog/cc-capsule-renault-r-17-hidden-imperial-treasure/
Did the rear windows roll down on these or did you have to remove them to get the hardtop look? I always wondered since I’ve never seen one of these in person, only in photos. The windows look to big to roll down into the bodywork.
I kinda like these in an oddball sort of way, I would take an orange one with the full canvas sunroof, which was electric as I recall, from an ad.
They rolled down. There’s enough room in front of the wheel well, especially with the shape of that rear window. The 15’s didn’t; swing-out.
I have heard that the Oregon rains will gently wash your car many times in a year but doesn’t anybody not see that green fuzz creeping across the car and remove it?
I’m just back from a brief trip to the most rural part of America. So rural, it’s at least 200 miles to the nearest junkyard/scrapyard.
Even at today’s high scrap prices, it simply isn’t worth the cost of fuel to scrap a vehicle there.
It seemed like every back lot and side yard was packed with cars, trucks, and (especially) campers that will never see the road again. They’re not saving them for anything – there’s just no practical way to get rid of them!
That’s what I love about the countryside–fantastic spotting of old retired cars in the back of driveways, backyards, in the woods…just something so scenic about it.
Of course not everybody feels that way. The mostly rural county where my in-laws live, in eastern North Carolina, used to be much the same. Old cars and trucks peacefully rusting away on every back road. Not that there wasn’t a place to scrap them (there are at least two junkyards), but it just seemed most folks parked them rather than going to the trouble to drag them away for scrap value. Then a law was passed banning unregistered vehicles within sight of the roadway, and they all disappeared. It’s a much less interesting place to drive around now, at least for me…
My experience in travelling overseas is that the attention (or lack thereof) given to older cars and trucks is directly related to laws dealing with vehicle emissions and vehicle recycling. The U.S. has some of the toughest emissions laws….for new cars. When you have states where vehicles get “sniffer” tested based solely on the owner’s zipcode….or not at all, derelict cars dot the landscape.
Nice find. The 18 wagon is a diesel featuring the overbuilt 2068 cc, an engine that with minimal care could reach half a million kilometers and way, way more. My 1st car was a ’83 18 GTD sedan 5 spd. Cramped rear seats, outdated chassis but utterly unkillable. The 18i’s sold in America didn’t get the diesel and their slush boxes gave them a bad name. There was a pristine 18i SportWagon at the Carlisle import show this past May. That’s at least one survivor. I have pics of it. Paul, I’d love to contribute to a 18 write-up. I’ve been writing about the 18 on the internet for more than 16 years, my website http://ptikem.free.fr (formerly 1418.net). Cheers
Grolar: I’d welcome that, a definitive history of the 18. I can set you up to do that directly at CC (WordPress), or you can e-mail me the text, and attach the pictures (don’t embed into text). More info here: https://www.curbsideclassic.com/submissions/
Grolar,
I’d love to read a full and informed history of the 18 – I’ve long considered it to be an underrated car, and I was surprised to find Renault had buklit 2 million of them
I’ve always liked the looks of the R15/17 twins. A little known, and somewhat surprising fact: A works R17 Gordini driven by Jean-Luc Thérier won the 1974 Press-On-Regardless Rally in Michigan. At the time, the rally was a round of the FIA Word Rally Championship (!).
We in Australia have always had a thing for French cars, in the 1970-80’s Renault and Peugeot were very common, R10’s were pretty standard motoring for teachers and they became the in car ,then the R12 became the teachers car.Renault were hugely popular amongst academics, students and musicians.
I repaired Renault /Peugeot for years and have so many great memories . The Renault 12 Wagon was one of the best vehicles ever built, later Virage a luxury version was a fabulous car. I always had lots of work fixing neglect from other mechanics and basic service repairs.
Renault /Peugeot withdrew from sales in Australia at the end of the 1980’s when the had their R20 and R18, both good cars which were too expensive. The R20 was an exceptional car not unlike the NSU RO80 to drive , incredible on the highway.
The Fuego sold in great numbers in Australia and was a good car, no particular faults , nothing seemed to wear out . A few gearbox faults because of oil getting low because the level was not checked.
The R15/17 is now very rare here partly because the front design of paneling was flimsy ,structure around the paneling strong and there were few parts to repair. However i do remember seeing dozens of new cars when i worked at head office and they were a very , very stylish car in their day, the japs had nothing the even remotely came close to their dashboard let alone the rest of the car!
Mechanics here never generally understood French cars and still have little idea , there was always prejudice against something different even though these brought good money to repair shops.
In rural Aussie if it isnt a Holden or Falcon no garage will touch it or if they do you then need someone else to sort out the mess, I fixed VWs for people in Tassie because I could make them run after the qualified institutions failed.
They must have sold, but el viento se los llevo. I’ve seen a couple of Fuego on carsales… and… ummm… no.
One of my uni mates had a R12 as a paddock bomb. He says a smile making machine.
Fuegos these days are generally in very good condition in the hands of an enthusiast owner or complete basket cases (sometimes masquerading as just a shabby car!).
Any Renault from this era are incredibly rare to see these days, I can’t remember the last time I saw an 18. Even the 19s are nearly gone. I gather the auto gearboxes in the 19 were a timebomb, which doesn’t help but is typical of Euro auto boxes.
The US got the top of the line 17, with the Gordini engine and huge sunroof. R&T cried about the French concept of ergonomics. I used to see one regularly 78-80; someone working at the place next to where I worked had one. Someone else that worked there had a Fiat 128SL.
The mid-life refresh gave it crash bumpers and a more conventional instrument cluster.
Breaks my heart to see that 18 wagon. Loved the looks of the car when new. Drove an 18i sedan when they were first imported. Wonderful seats. Laffably underpowered with the old pushrod 1.6. The 18 and the Fuego should have had the 2.2 from day one.
I never realized the 17 was sold in the USA. Probably so few of them, plus the fact that most were gone by the time I was old enough to notice, is responsible for my never having seen one. Great-looking cars though, captures “70’s sporty” really well. Love that window treatment.
All considered though I can’t remember the last time I saw a Renault on the road. Not even an AMC-Renault. I remember seeing Fuegos, 18s, and LeCars very very occasionally years ago but nothing in the last 10+ years except for the stray Alliance, and none of them in probably at least 5 years.
Oddly enough, there’s currently one of those sitting next to an old Saab 900 near me.
I’m partial to the Renault Alpine A110 sports car.
In body shape it’s kind of like a French 911 (though the engine is in front).
Er, no, all Alpines have rear engines. Like the 911.
I did see a 16 on the wild. I was traveling to Brussels in a bus. In Mexico were i live, you still see a lot of 18s, some 12s and 5s. No one really loves the Encore or the Alliance, since they were too AMC and not so durable as the true Renaults. I have owned a 2004 RS Clio 172, a 1984 R5 TX and now i just bought a 1980 R5 TS which i enjoy very much.
I always loved Renaults, particularly in the ’80s. Had two rough and unstoppable R4s, one I fitted with R18 front seats that took all the room inside, then a 5TS, and drove my then girlfriend’s mother R14 a real lot. That one was neither fish nor meat, but I loved its comfort. Bulky and very much more thirsty then my usual drive then, a Fiat 126 (with 500 twin engine). As for Renaults, my favourite ever was a 1.6 R16 we drove in all the way to Normandy just out of high school. None of these are preserved, down here, but the more peculiar and sporty models of french brands. I keep two 2CVs and still weep at the thought that my dad’s DS19 was scrapped when I was too young to drive.
The 18i ran headlong into a horrible recession and increasing competition from the likes of the Sentra wagon, civic wagon and corolla wagon as well as domestic competition like the cavalier, aries, and escort. Whatever feeble demand there may have been for Renaults was further quashed by the high price on the 18i (contemporary reviews had it at around 10k and that was closer to an audi than a cavalier) feeble, noisy engine, and Renault’s well earned reputation. I think I saw two 18is in my life as a child of the 80s. One was a 1981 dark blue wagon I was encouraging my parents to by in 1984. It had depreciated to around $2000, if not less, and also required at least $2000 worth of work to make all the mystery lights on the dash turn off. I have never seen a 12, 15, or 17, but must say this was what a particular corolla coupe and the datsun b210 should have looked like. Instead, those cars ended up as cheap and oddly proportioned all the way to grotesque.
It’s sad when a marque leaves the market, but I know despite youthful enthusiasm I would never, ever buy a French car. That’s a mistake I’ve convinced myself never to make.
This summer I was in real doubt, a bright yellow mint, mint super mint Renault 15, a 2 owner car was up for sale, original Dutch registration and delivered by Kreisel Renault, who were the dealers for the North side (of the river) for Rotterdam.
The price only € 4500. The car had done a mere 80000 kilometers and was in a lovely condition.
I wanted this car, as I always loved its quirky shape, I loved its color and the fact that these cars are really something different. I even like the R15 design better then the R 17’s
And these are really practical claasics with their large hatch.
But then dark clouds started to appear, all those other idiots whom believe they are ‘ driving’ a car while pulling crazy stunts in the city, all those young certified imbeciles in their financed A class Mercedesses or VW Polo’s the whole environmental anti car lobby in Holland I decided that owning a jewel like this R 15 would give me more worries then pleasure.
You see we used to have a really decent driving education in Holland but since many people failed their driving tests they decided to simplify the tests with disasterous consequences regarding discpline and courteous driving behavior.
We’re still looking for a second house somewehere in rural France or Spain, if I would have had such a place, the R 15 would have been the ideal candidate to reside overthere.
My grandfather’s very last car was a Renault 18, after a long succession of Rovers and Jaguars. He did terrible things to that Renault in a Bournemouth multistorey, and that was the end of his 65 years on the road.
The R18 was popular in Argentina and it was made to the mid-1990s.
The Renault 17’s greenhouse, viewed side-on, reminds me of the ’64-’66 Baccaruda’s.