Curbside Classics takes you back to 1971 for a virtual comparison test of six small cars, based (and partly borrowed) from a C/D test. Car #3 is here. First posted here in 2011.
I don’t have any shots of the Simca 1204. (Update: I still don’t, two years later, but njsimca allowed me access to his Simca collection on his Flickr page; there’s lots more there) I haven’t seen one in over twenty-five years; have you? So I’m taking my lifeline (to Google images). The Simca 1100/1204 was such a remarkable and historically significant car, perhaps the most influential small car since WWII. Its DNA is in every transverse-engine FWD hatchback in the world. The VW Golf was a perfect crib of the Simca wearing a handsome Italian suit. Plus, j’aime les voitures françaises. And the Simca almost won the C/D test. It should have won. So forgive me, but we’re going to have show and tell without the show.
C/D gave the little tall hatchback quite the glowing (and accurate) write-up: “The Simca differs from all the other cars in two important ways: it was designed to be comfortable and efficient transportation rather than simply a car, and it is French. Except for the styling (subjective) and high-speed cruising ability, it is superior to the (winner) in almost every way.” So why didn’t it win? C/D sucking up to their biggest advertiser who canceled their ads after the trashing of one of their cars?
Given how boring, cheap, predictable and ugly most small French cars have become in recent times, it’s hard to fully appreciate how innovative, influential and fun they once were. I’m going to avoid a full-on Francophile paean to their automotive glories, because it would become a book. And the well-known heroes like the Citroën Traction-Avant, DS and 2CV are common knowledge. But the French way of building cars extended to the lesser makes as well, even Chrysler’s subsidiary Simca.
It started from the bottom up with the suspension. OK, we all know the horrors of the complicated and leaking Citroën hydropneumatic bladders. But the plebian Simca had a long-travel torsion-bar suspension that worked superbly and didn’t leak. Yes, like all French cars back then, the Simca looked like it was going to fall over in the curves. But that didn’t really slow it down much, especially since it was the only car in this comparison riding on sticky radials. Combined with the superb deeply-sprung seats, the Simca, like most French cars of the era, created a feeling of well-being that was head and shoulders above the typical hard-riding penalty-box small cars of the time. This still applies today: what I would give for some of that suppleness in my harsh xBox.
But the real historical significance of the Simca 1100/1204 was its configuration. It was the forerunner of all modern small FWD hatchbacks: transverse side-by-side engine and transmission, a relatively boxy and roomy but compact body, and a cavernous hatch to transform the rear into a virtual wagon. All the characteristics of every Golf-class and other small cars (built around the globe by the hundreds of millions) started right here.
Update: The Autobianchi Primula had this recipe back in 1964, so it is the true pioneer of this format, although initially, it didn’t come with a hatchback. But the Primula never sold in significant numbers. The Simca 1100 was the first to really popularize the formula, and it directly led to all the subsequent cars in its class. Despite the 1204 being a flop in the US, the Simca 1100 was a big success in Europe. Launched in 1967, sales grew strongly, and it became the best selling French car, with 300k units built in 1973.
Simca was already on its last legs in the US when it tossed the 1204 our way as its swan song. A dearth of dealers, suspect reputation, and indifference to innovation made the French proto-Golf a rare bird from day one. But in 1977, I met a fellow automotive Franco-phile in L.A. who had one and let me take it for a spin. The feeling of slipping into something very different was palpable. Comfortable, tall, narrow, weird instrument panel. Ergonomics were not as high on the list of priorities of French cars as comfort and all-round practicality.
A slightly enlarged version of the rear-engined Simca 1000 OHV four powered the 1100/1204. It was a willing if somewhat buzzy mill. And it developed a reputation for certain weaknesses in its upper regions. Nevertheless, despite being the smallest mill in this test, it was the third fastest with a 14.6 in the 0-60. But it just didn’t quite cut the mustard on American freeways. And that French reputation of questionable longevity hung over it like the smell of a freshly-cut Camembert cheese.
The 1204 was just a bit ahead of its time in the US. It needed a modern 1.5 and a 5-speed for serious freeway work. My cousin in Austria had an 1100, and we took some great trips together in it. It was right at home in the narrow streets and twisty Alpine roads of Tirol. My love for French cars would soon flower into a fleet of rugged and reliable Peugeot 404s, but I credit the Simca for that first French kiss.
C/D fell in love too: “we were not prepared for the high level of quality throughout. Its basic structure was so extremely solid that the car was totally without rattles or squeaks…it is a highly sophisticated machine that offers maximum comfort and utility in its class…it is a mystery that Chrysler Corporation keeps it a secret.” Good point. Chrysler should have sold them at Plymouth dealers to get the jump on the copycat Golf/Rabbit.
Instead, they imported the miserable Cricket from England. After that disaster, and the Golf/Rabbit’s success, Chrysler copied the Golf’s looks for the Horizon/Omni, which otherwise was heavily based on the 1100/1204. And the ubiquitous K-cars in turn were the fruit of Chrysler’s experience with the Americanized Horizon.
So who needs photos of the Simca? Every time you see a Reliant, LeBaron, Dodge 600, Caravan, Maserati TC or a host of other K-car derivatives, you’re looking at the Simca’s direct genetic offspring. But that’s another CC story (or two). And I already have the photos.
Postscript: njsimca also sent in this picture of the 1978 Simca Matra Rancho, based on the Simca 1100/1204. It’s a very under appreciated pioneer of the CUV category, and deserves another parting look. Simca was a genuine and often underappreciated pioneer.
1971 Comparison car #1 (winner)
Plus the 1100 was the basis for the first soft-roader the
blast! the hyperlink tag broke, so Matra Rancho http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matra_Rancho
I bought a new 1204 station wagon at a Chrysler dealer in Arlington VA for delivery in Paris. It was 1970, and the price was $1540 with a top rack. It had the most comfortable seats of any car I’ve ever owned, and was a thoroughly modern design. I even towed a little camping trailer on the Autobahn. The reason you don’t see them now is rust; my floor boards fell out after 4 years and 60,000 miles. But very fond memories anyway
My great grandfather had one of these for many years until he traded it in for a Datsun B210 Honeybee
How ironic that he replaced such a high-tech marvel with such a dull-as-dishwater appliance!
njsimca: I just added some of the shots from your flickr page. Thanks!
You said it, Paul, all modern cars owe their success to the trailblazing Simca 1100 and 1204. Other automakers took years to catch up! And, years later, the Simca 1307 and Horizon each won car of the year in Europe (the Horizon in the USA, too!) just before Chrysler sold everything they owned outside of the United States, so you know they must have needed that dollar!
And, YES, another first: considering the true goal of a soccer mom’s suv, to sit up a little higher and to have a little more car around her, then the Rancho is, indeed the worlds first. And, it’s looks just scream, “LET’S HAVE FUN!!”
Here’s the Matra Simca Rancho and the Talbot Matra Rancho compared:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/njsimca/5492783248/
Best Regards,
Matt Cotton
Lake Parsippany, NJ
I just had to add that Rancho pic, at the end of the piece. Thanks again.
Anytime, Paul! I love my French cars, and don’t get nearly enough time to yak about them!!
From the very un-FWD-like short front overhang, it appears the Simca 1204 has the differential and half shafts ahead of the engine block, unlike all transverse-engine FWD cars today.
It always puzzles me why no one does it this way anymore. It provides better weight distribution, and the short overhang looks better. Of course the conventional layout gives more interior room relative to the wheelbase length. But there are many 2-door FWD coupes not noted for space efficiency anyway, while the superior weight distribution and short overhang should certainly enhance “sportiness.”
I agree, Kitaikki!
The French started out this way, with the Citroen Traction Avant, the DS, 2CV and Ami, and the Renault 4 and 5 and this R16. The longitudinal placement of the engine behind the transmission not only gives great weight distribution, but a nice open front floor, no hump from the front wheels!! Plus, you can reach both sides of the engine and fit the spare under the hood, too!!
Obviously, some dingbat in Japan decided that switching it all every whichaway and installing MacPherson struts in every car from now on would save eleven cents per car, so that’s what we all do now!! And, yes, I understand that the transverse engine saves some space, but is that all that important once the car is above mini-sized?
I DO miss when cars were interesting… sigh.
Renault R16 proportions: http://www.flickr.com/photos/njsimca/3475596961/in/set-72157612174960210/
njsimca
I meant to say that the “front mid engine” layout can be done with transverse engines too (like this Simca, which also appears to have the engine block tilted forward 45 degrees). There is no reason the different/half shaft assembly can’t be placed in front of the transverse engine block/transmission instead of behind them. Doing it this way also allows the steering rack to be placed ahead of the front axle, improving steering precision (all modern rear drive designs have the steering linkage ahead of the front axle)
I am not sure who started the modern conventional transverse FWD layout. I think early Hondas were this way (N360/N600, Civic), as well as the first VW Golf. I believe all of the non-Simca French designs you mentioned had longitudinal inline engines.
Agree that today we have less variety and fewer “adventurous” designs. Just try to find a car with a front bench seat and totally flat floor … Or a manual transmission with column shift … Or spare tire in the engine compartment 🙂
Fiat started the modern layout in 1964 with the Autobianch Primula.
The current Mazda 3 with their reverse intake and exhaust manifold add some inch between the rear of the front wheels archs and the front doors , I wonder which place theirs transmissions are .
Check the layout of modern French FWD cars, there is nothing with any real weight ahead of the front axle line keeping the weight within the wheelbase improves handling, I’m on my 3rd Citroen now and they still build them that way and for a 1.7 tonne car it handles superbly,
Rear engine Simcas came in various engine sizes up to 1300 turning it east west in the chassis is the main mod, We had a Simca cc sometime ago with a blue/white sedan featured, well its still alive and playing in traffic I was in Napier last week and saw it ferrying the owners wife to work, maybe her diesel Corolla has finally quit going.
N’importe quelle Renault avec moteur longitudinal de cette époque ont des leviers de changment de vitesse imprécis du précisément au fait que la transmission est tout en avant et au ‘shift linkage’ par cable trop long .
Any Renault with a longitudinal engine from this era has imprecise gear shift levers due precisely to the fact that the transmission is all the way forward and to the ‘shift linkage’ by a cable that is too long
When a FWD car with its engine aft of the center line of the front wheels accelerates, engine weight transfers off the front wheels and onto the rear ones. This is not the key to climbing snowy hills. Between traction issues and packaging, none of the companies that once built mid engined FWD cars are still at it.
Many drivetrain layouts are not optimized for snowy hill climbs. If that were the goal, then cars should all have engines in the back. As for packaging, there are many 2 door “sporty” coupes that are not optimized for space. Front mid engine designs have advantages in handling and styling, both good for “sporty” cars.
One more good thing about front mid engine: New pedestrian safety regulations. With the engine block further back, there is more pedestrian “crumple space” in front, allowing designers to better streamline the front end of the car (better aerodynamics and styling, as well as driver visibility)
Excuse me for assuming you were honestly asking a question.
The main reason for the powertain ahead of the axle is most likely turning radius. The inside front wheel must turn sharper than the outside wheel, so the back edge of the inside wheel must be closer to the center of the car than the front edge of the outside wheel. With the powertrain ahead of the axle, there is more room for the back edge of the tire to turn inward, thus allowing a tighter turning radius.
I have a couple of French FWD cars both manual diesel Citroens the entire engine is canted backwards to improve weight distributon and handling there is nothing heavy ahead of the crankshaft, hanging the engine out the front does nothing to improve the turning radius which is dictated by how tight the CV joints will allow nothing to do with engine placemen all that happens if the engine is ahead of the axle is understeer.
hey NJsimca– used to work in Whippany & Parssipany !!
With a quick glance, that Rancho looks just like one of those dolled up (poseur) Land Rover Discoveries.
Hey, Fast, if you ever get back, show me the Alfa!
Isn’t it great how Land Rover’s made the latest Discover look like a 30-year-old French beauty! And, the real beauty of the Rancho was that you COULD fit a motorcycle in the back, and still get 25mpg, too!
I hated the one ride I’ve had in the LR DIsco, I felt SO unsafe, I just KNEW we were going to tip right over, and that was on pavement! And the ride was awful and I felt cramped!
I’d rather have been in an old 109 or something, at least I felt confident that it wouldn’t flip over!
I have no direct experience with the Simcas, but I remember seeing plenty of them in Germany. One thing your post reminded me of, is the dearth of comfortable small cars, something that seems to have disappeared in the rush to adopt the Universal Japanese smal Car (UJC). I’m hoping with the anticipated return of Fiat to North America that they will sell a car inexpensively enough and be reliable enough to get people to demand something other than a Corolla. Hyundai (and Kia) still have a shot at this, I think there are enough people who like small cars, but need something different than the three box formula. After your post about the 404, I was pondering how different the small car market could have been if Peugeot and Renault had been more successful here in the US. I remember cars like the Renault Fuego, which brought an entirely different design and engineering theme to the small Scirocco inspired FWD coupe idiom. Sadly, it was a POS. GM’s attempt to bring the Astra hatch here was also prematurely aborted. I would love to see some of those South American small car utes brought over here, like the old Dodge Rampage or VW Pickup. Maybe Fiat/Chrysler will take a chance and bring the Fiat version here, So many designs we don’t get here, but ignored due to a lack of imagination…
It seems we have a whole generation of people who have not seen these ideas in sheetmetal, and so they are more interested in smartphones and less in mobility and real liberty: the ability to go when and where you want.
Only ever seen one of these in North America which was in a Calgary scrapyard maybe eight years ago. It was in reasonable, savable shape but no takers where found for it.
A friend of mine had a 1204 4 door wagon when we were in High School back in the seventies. His dad bought 2 of ’em, the other was a Sedan (both ’71’s I think) that was his daily driver. Great car, we pounded the hell out of it both on and off road and it took whatever we did to it without complaint. I knew that these Simca’s were rare but never really appreciated it, I passed on buying it from him in ’79, oops!
BTW his old man was a real out of the box car guy, he traded the Sedan for a new ’76 Accord when they hit the showrooms. A real forward thinker back in the day.
My dad bought a 1204 in the winter of 1971, a dark blue wagon (somewhat less iconoclastic in profile than the sedan). I was a high school senior and the car was essentially for my use. I had lobbied for a Super Beetle for no good reason that I can recall except it was reliable and still the default small car in those days. Dad knew the guy that owned the Chrysler Dodge dealership, though, and I spent several hours there kicking tires while he negotiated the deal. He was trading in our ’48 Willys panel wagon that I’d driven since I’d gotten my license at 14 (this was in Idaho, where they started you out young). The Willys had originally been an ambulance, and still had the red cross on the side when we acquired it–it had two seats in the front and a plywood floor in the back where we had some memorable parties. We had a snow plow mounted on the front to clear the parking lot of the motel my dad owned. But I digress.
So, I spent what seemed like hours kicking the tires of the Dodge Polaras and Challengers in the showroom while the deal was done. As I had been reading Road & Track since I was 12, I had nothing but disdain for Detroit Iron and was enthusiastic about the Simca, as I had read the comparison test in Car and Driver. The Simca didn’t disappoint . . . it was gem, with great handling, comfort (those wonderful seats), and fuel economy, although not quite to the standard of my friend’s Fiat 850 Spider. With FWD, it was great in the snow, and it took me skiing nearly every weekend during the winter (but more about that in a moment). The summer of ’71 I spent in Europe where my sister was living at the time, and I still have a photo of my friends standing in front of the Simca dealer on the Champs-Élysées–I had become a big fan.
Back home in the fall I started college and so of course spent every Tuesday and Wednesday on the slopes. Driving back from skiing one stormy day in March, I slid off the road on a patch of black ice, and two cars soon followed suit, hammering the Simca’s back end to the point that my ski tips were sticking out of the rear sheet metal. The verdict at the body shop? Parts had to ordered from France. Total time in the shop? Nearly three months. Once back on the road, however, she was as good as new, and a friend and I drove her up through Alberta and British Columbia and back through my future home of Seattle and then Oregon and Idaho, averaging close to 40 mpg over a thousand plus miles and without a moment’s trouble. That summer, though, I headed back to Italy and Switzerland for two years, and by the time I’d returned in the summer of ’74, Dad had traded the Simca in on a Dodge pickup much to my chagrin. A Mercury Capri took its place, and then a Saab 99, and then a Lancia Beta (!). I think I unconsciously spent the next forty years trying to find a car with the Simca’s qualities with limited success. Maybe my Mazda3 hatch comes closed to its virtues of comfort, fun, and utility, but of course it is more sophisticated by a magnitude. In any event, any of the Simca’s detractors obviously never spent much time in one. I don’t think Paul overstates its qualities or influence one bit.
Mazda 3? Are we talking about the current model? My 2015 has many qualities but comfort in the Simca way is not one of them (in case you ask: my grandad had a Simca, and I remember enough from the trips we took back then). Or maybe the North American models have very different suspension calibration when compared with ours in the EU.
Interesting piece on the 1100/1204.
Simca lacked the image and publicity to impose its cars on the US market. Chrysler already had enough brands in the US, selling small French cars to Americans wasn’t their top priority. When Peugeot took over the brand they didn’t care much for it and had their own issues to deal with in the US so Simca got put on the backburner again, turned into Talbot and eventually axed.
The Rancho was based on the VF2, the fourgonette version of the VF2 – fairly rare cars today but a huge success for Matra back in the day.
I have a perpetual hardon for French cars. I wanted an 1100/1204 in the worst way, but before I could afford one, Chrysler stopped importing them. So I bought a new Fiat 128. I still love that car. After another driver slid on snow and totaled the 128 I bought a new 1978 VW Rabbit which I drove for 16 years. Even with the 1456 cc (or as I called it, the Mountain Motor), it was much faster than the 128, but wasn’t as satisfying to drive. All of the controls on the Fiat felt related (steering, clutch, brakes). The VW was typically Germanic-clunky. It wasn’t nearly as well built as the Fiat either. I still lust for the 1100/1204.
I owned a 1204 wagon and loved it. Only used it running around on Long Island but everyone who rode in it marveled at how comfortable and roomy it was. It was a little slow and a 5 speed would have helped, but I still fondly recall this car some forty years later. Coincidentally, like Mr Martin, I purchased a 128 SL coupe afterwards and it too was a favorite but another car that needed a 5 speed to help its little motor on the highways of America.
Mannix’s secretary Peggy Fair drove Simcas in the early years…first whatever they called the one that looked like a Renault R8, then this one–switched to a Plymouth Valiant, followed by a Dodge Colt.
There’s some screenshots of that Simca on IMCDB.
https://www.imcdb.org/vehicle_1026390-Simca-1204-928-1969.html
Actually the Autobianchi Prímula was the first FWD car with side-by-side engine/transmission, a layout first devised by Dante Giacosa, chief engineer at FIAT at the time.
I agree with you, the Autobianchi Prímula didn’t follow the BMC’s layout contrary to what says this article.
And Simca had close relationships with Fiat at least until the early ’60s.
I remember the days when these Simcas/Talbots had been a usual things to see commuting on the streets. Then came the Talbot Rancho/Matra Simca with its timeless design…and probably became the archetype of the decades later SUVs. Thanks for posting.
During that era, Mopar print ads often touted the advantages of their torsion-bar front suspension, but with a fine-print disclaimer footnote. Something to the effect that Chrysler products built in North America had torsion bars. Of course they had to do this so as not to give the (false) impression that their captive imports, like the Plymouth Cricket and Dodge Colt, had torsion bars.
After the 1204 came out, I found that disclaimer good for a chuckle. With torsion bars all around, the 1204 out-torsion-barred Chrysler’s domestic cars!
Fiat actually beat Simca to the end-on transverse engine and gearbox by three years with the Autobianchi Primula, which also used Macpherson strut front suspension, so is much more the pregenitor of Golf et al than the Simca with its double wishbones and torsion bars.
Dear me, to refer to a Goddess as having a leaking bladder makes it sound as if she has pelvic floor issues. Not at all becoming of her lofty station amongst automobilia. I think you meant that sometimes, her spheres need replacing….which, because I just anthropomorphised and feminized her, doesn’t sound any better..ahem, anyway, moving on..
I join others here in saying the Primula was the inventor of the end-on gearbox jobbie; seems so odd you’d specifically mention such an obscure car that perhaps you wrote the opposite of what you meant to say? (I only knew because of an article in the English mag Classic and Sportscar about it some years back).
My apologies. I first wrote this back in 2009, one of my earliest pieces. At that time I did not remember about the Primula’s side transmission. I’ve just updated the article.
FWIW, I believe the Primula’s hatchback came later in its lifespan, and that it only had a conventional trunk as originally conceived.
Don’t remember seeing these in Chicago area. But, remember Simca/Sunbeam as part of Chrysler Corp ads on “Bob Hope Specials”.
I was a safety patrol kid in the 6th grade (1971-72). What a great gig, missing a combined 20 minutes of school per day in order to stand on the corner watching cars.
One of those days (and only one) I remember someone picking up their kids in one of these Simcas. It was a slushy winter day and I remember being surprised to see the front wheels spinning a bit as they searched for some traction in the frozen slush. Toronados were the only cars I knew to be FWD then. I had never heard of a Simca before, and had no way of knowing that it might be the only one I would ever notice in normal use.
When Chrysler enginners were translating these into what would become the 78 L body Omnirizon there was a spirited debate about torsion bars. The accountants won the argument and the torsion bars went away.
Yes I was a “Safety” too. I still remember seeing my family doctor in his Buick and my 3rd-grade teacher in her Rambler.
I was a “traffic patrol” in 6th grade, also 71-72. Spent most of my time eyeing and identifying the cars and the girls. Nothing else mattered much. Great series here!
I once read where engineering had to fight the beancounters tooth and nail to get a 4-speed in the L-Bodies instead of 3!
I read (maybe here) that it wasn’t Chrysler accountants but engineers who wanted a coil front suspension on the American Omnirizon because the torsion bars on the Simca ran under the floor and they wanted the lower floor the coils allowed.
Massive salting of the road kill those french cars here in Québec even if the period advertising said the opposite .
I assume the mpg figure in the ad is based on Imperial gallons?
Six years of east coast winters left mine virtually without rocker panels and I remember fitting a piece of wood to patch the front floor. These cars do not require roads to be salted it seems. Better traction than my Trailblazer in 4-WD. The best thing in the snow is the spring return to center on the steering rack. Nothing else like it. Yes, I think the MPG is for Imperial gallons used in Canada until 1971. Great car, expensive and hard to obtain parts.
The French never understood the US market for cars.
They never understood how to conquer that market, they simply refused to adapt their cars to the US market and if they did, they’d throw all the good stuff out, to replace it with bad stuff.
The past decade the French car industry suffered, simply because they started to make German cars. Now they started to make French cars again, they started to be successfull.
This 1100 Simca could have been a hit and a Beetle killer, if only.
I would say the only place in NA that really took to French cars was Quebec, and even there success was limited.
The Police here even tried these … Our young criminals could sleep soundly . I remenber when I was young that there was many French car, almost as much as Vw Bugs . We have so much like french cars that some was produce here ( soma ) And some , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manic_GT ,with little québec touch ( ok sound like a flop …that in fact that was ) .
My thoughts as well. My theory is, sucking up to “outre” American buyers was a psychological barrier the proud French could never cross. A shame, for there was a lot to admire about their cars; e.g., ride comfort should’ve been an easy sell to people used to bargy Cutlasses and Ford Elites.
Agree, the Italian makes seem to have the same approach. Unlike the German, Japanese and Korean makes. You’d think some of these outfits would have learned by now. Some cars from France and Italy available today are models I love to have – somehow they miss the mark. If only they had some guys like me as consultants!
This is the car that brought a newborn ChineseAl back from the hospital in 1970. My father had bought the car new earlier in the year and he loved the practicality of the hatchback and the comfortable ride. However the seats gave him unbearable backache within 20 miles to the extent that he had to sell it at a significant loss within a year and buy a secondhand Austin Maxi. He told me that when it was sold there was already rust around the headlights. Having lived in a France in the early 60s he was a committed Francophile but never touched a French car again.
This piece was written about nine years ago?
Does the author still feel the same about small French cars?
Why would it change?
And just how do you think I feel about French cars? Perhaps you assume something because I don’t indulge in cheap shots at French cars in general, which is a favorite pastime of ill-informed Americans?
FYI: small (sub-compact / B-segment) French cars happen to be sublime.
The Renault Clio was our best selling car in 2017, number two was the Holy VW Golf. Please note that the current Clio was introduced in 2012, with only a minor facelift in 2016. It’s available as a hatchback and wagon.
“…given how boring, cheap, predictable and ugly most small French cars have become… “?
I wish I could have experienced one. They were reasonably popular in Britain, but few lasted beyond 6-7 years before terminal rust got them.French cars seemed to be built from wafer thin steel with minimal rust proofing in those days (not that our home brands were that much better, but you could normally get 10-12 years from a Ford) I can still remember those chattering tappets though, they all seemed to do that.
Stuff like this, along with obscurities like rear engined Renaults, are probably only likely to be found in rural southern France these days which has a far kinder climate.
I remember Simcas from my childhood days in Reims (France). They were the european equivalent of the american malaise cars. Rust buckets par excellence. None of those reached 7 years.
So I learned something today. I’m amazed Simca sold 2.2 million of these cars. I don’t ever recall seeing one in So Cal growing up, but they were a familiar site in Europe. Other than that, never drive one, or even knew anyone that owned one- so the car is a complete stranger to me.
I don’t recall ever seeing one of these, but I still see the occasional omnirizon. One of these is the logo for hooniverse.
The only Simca that came into our shop back then was a rare 1000 with the semi-automatic transmission. It was the earlier rear engine layout, more like other European small cars of the day. I dont recall ever seeing an 1100 in Los Angeles. On our first trip to Europe in 1984 we did see Talbot branded FWD cars that looked like the US Plymouth Horizon.
The Talbot Horizons were related to the US ones:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simca-Talbot_Horizon
Simca, whike there are plenty, really plenty of 1950’s Arondes still round, in the sixties they made excellent drivers cars, but the quality of the uni-bodies started to become poor. They did have a vast range of cars,from the 1000, the Aronde to the upmarket Chambord Beaulieu cars some equipped with a Ford V8, as SIMCA were born out of Ford France .
In Europe they were one of the first to position the 1100 as Ls, Gls, Special and Special Ti, the holy grail Gti avant-la-lettre.
The smart thing about simca was the cars had different trim like hubcaps, chrome, the Special had two driving lights in the grille, borrani style rims with holes while the Ti had 4 (FOUR) extra light and real Dunlop alloy wheels, an absolute unique feature on a car like this.
They also had a very successful van or truckette, the VF 1100, the Dutch mail and telephone services had a hughe fleet of these.
Although simple trim, they were a bit more car and stronger then a Renault 4 van.
We scavenged breakers yard on the hunt for 1100Ti wheels, which made my bright orange Simca Ralley 1 look like a million dollars ! A lot of friends had NSU TT’s or a Ralley 1 or Fiat 850 special.
The VF van was the last direct 1100 derivative, made (as a Talbot after 1979) until 1985.
There used to be lots of 1100s around still in the early ’90s, but successive cash for clunkers schemes have really thinned the ranks. And those that remain rust very well indeed…
We had one of these! In rural South Louisiana, of all places. I was too young to remember much, but my sister said it was a fun little car, and she doesn’t think remember any real problems. It got rear ended and totaled in town while she was driving it (fortunately…and maybe miraculously, no injuries).
I had one of those back in the late 70s and just drove the wheels off it. Underpowered to be sure, but I could barely pass some Vegas on hills. And it leaked oil. I rebuilt the engine, adding sealant on gaskets meticulously, and 20K later it started leaking again. Pretty much everywhere. Cornered like it was on rails, newer cars have higher limits, but stable, predictable, confidence inspiring and you could drive it at it’s limits all day long. Like I said, it was slow, but I didn’t have to slow down for curves. Put 115K on it and traded it for a set of tires with 165K on it. Space utilization so good a friend asked me to help her move one time saying I had the biggest car (usable space) of anyone she knew.
Someone on my block in St. Louis had a 1204 ca. 1971. I was enough of a gearhead to know what it was, but I never struck up a conversation with him about it. Ca. 1972 or ’73 I wrote to Road & Track’s Technical Correspondence column asking if a 1204 would be a good bet. Then engineering editor Ron Wakefield sent a nice note saying, “From my experience with ex-Chrysler imports, I’d say shy away from the Simca, nice a car as it is. I know too many Sunbeam owners who were left hanging.”
I subscribed to Road Test for a few years in the early 70s. They once ran a letter to the editor about a company in the Chicago suburbs that had gone around buying up Simca and Rootes spare parts from Chrysler dealers. So the good news was that there was a one-stop source of such parts. The bad news was that the company knew they had their customers over a barrel and charged accordingly.
Consumer Reports once tested the 1204 along with a fairly large group of other cars. They gave it good marks for road manners but pointed out that it had shorter gearing in 4th gear than most American cars had in 2nd.
Daihatsu Europe learned that lesson well, consolidating their spare parts network to a Swiss company of whom also demands extortionate prices. The only way of getting around them is to mail order from Malaysia, Japan or Pakistan, unless you own a Daihatsu Sirion which is nothing other than a re-badged Subaru Justy. The latter making visits to any Subaru dealer for replacement parts possible.
Those genial law makers in Brussels decided that the way to protect the European market from an invasion of automobiles that the Europeans aren’t building anyway was to exempt them from import duties, when those otherwise impeccably-assembled in Japan vehicles were to be slipshoddilly assembled in some low-wage European assembly plant. Daihatsu refused and thus couldn’t compete, except in the Swiss market where the abundance of expendable income was less of a false economic influence. The demand for all-wheel drive passenger vehicles there assured Daihatsu a market place niche, given that a potential buyer was otherwise left a choice between a tinny FIAT Panda or an expensive Audi, as an alternative
Huh. If I’ve ever seen (or heard) of one before, I don’t remember. Thanks CC.
Remember: the breakthrough first happened with the Mini, with its transverse layout, severely hampered by its strange co-dependence of fluids: the engine oil lubricating the transmission. The radiator had limitations as well, being physically connected to the engine.
Fiat didn’t want to build the Autobianchi Primula in big numbers, they wanted to prove their concept without risking damage to the image of its popular Fiat brand: independent transmission and engine with unequal axle shafts AND an electronically controlled fan.
The Fiat 128 popularized the arrangement — and Simca, VW followed suite.
Simca did not introduce the breakthrough. Period.
If you changed the oil every 3000 miles in a mini, engine and box would keep going just fine. Unless you foolishly bought an automatic version. Even Brits didn’t buy those.
I have an 1100 with 12,000 km’s on it that I imported 19 years ago. When you sit in it, it smells like a new car. Ah, perhaps I could be persuaded to part with it?
My first car was a 1971 tan Simca 1204. I bought it new for $2000 from a Chrysler dealer in Helena Montana. I drove it until 1983 and would have happily kept it much longer if parts had been available. I’ve never had another car that was as much fun to drive.
Bought one new in 1971 in Norwich, VT. I loved this car! Most comfortable seats ever. With front wheel drive and radial tires it was great in snow, and handling was superb. Unfortunately, universal joints went, and rust got the better of it. Wish I’d kept it to show my kids and grandkids.
Phillip, I grew up in Marshfield, Vermont. I remember seeing a 1200 sedan at the Montpelier horse show in the summer (obviously) of either 1970 or 1971. It was silver in color. Was it yours? It was the only Simca 1200 I remember ever seeing in Vermont. Governor Deane C. Davis drove a team of horses pulling a wagon around the paddock to much applause. Born in Barre, just like me!
A classmates Dad at Twinfield and the janitor, had a Simca 1000 which I was interested in. I remember him opening the rear hood to show me the engine and radiator. Very interesting.
Lots of Simca 1100/1200s made it to Alicante Spain in August the following summers. The Citroens were the most memorable, but silver Simcas abounded too.
My parents bought Peugeots, a 404 followed by a 504. My dad loved the 504. His best car ever. He taught at Goddard. The president was my mom’s dad. Cheers
I had bought a used 1970 simca 1100 hatchback in vancouver bc. Back in 1976. The torsionbar suspension was adjustable. So following the car manual I lowered it to the lowest setting. With some high performance shocks and 4 new Michelin 70 series performance radials it sat low and squat like a go cart .about 5 in ground clearance. This car cornered without noticeable roll with great traction in wet and snow and dry. I had front and rear balance near 50/50 and the suspension adjustment reduced the understeer to neutral / minimum oversteer which you could correct with letting off the throttle. The little motor buzzed along with little power but could get 40 mpg imperial all day long loaded with ski holiday gear. , sold it after 2 yrs of fun.
In 1972 I purchased a 1204 orange 1204 Simca that Chrysler was selling in Minneapolis at rock-bottom prices ($1600.00)because they had stopped importing any more. Only fond memories exists for this car. It was exceptionally comfortable to sit in and the steering and handling proved equally top notch . The car had air conditioning, and despite that, I could easily cruise at 70 mph on the Freeway. However, sadly, in 1974 I was enjoying the front wheel drive on the slushy roads and threw it around corners, but unfortunately hit the curb hard, with the passenger front wheel, and destroying some vital part in the drivetrain. As a result, i ended up ditching it since there was really no hope of obtaining timely repairs. The backseat would fall down flat and we put a 3 inch foam padding, custom fitted to the whole area and our two kids below the age of five played and slept for hours on the flat spacious surface when we took the long trips. Yes, there were no seatbelts in the back for them! This car was an ideal SUV like compact car, 30 years before anything else competitive came on the market. Chrysler could have prospered importing or manufacturing this gem in the gasoline scrimping 70s and without major changes would still be competitive in today’s market. Ole
Haha, well done!!! I do not recall ever seeing a Simca 1100 / 1204 in the metal, not surprisingly, except in model car form….it was a Majorette diecast sold as a civilian car and also a nifty little black police car which I loved as a kid. Indeed, I wasn’t sure that Simca was remotely active in North America at the time, and sold this in the USA. That model really had some appeal to me for whatever reason, and I have had a soft spot for this car, hence googling it at the moment in some down time. I really liked reading this article and its presentation, partly because Mr. Niedermeyer was rather positive and seemingly objective in his appraisal, but the winner of the C/D contest was not revealed until the end, and only if you followed the link. Thus, my judgement was not colored in the slightest, and for some reason I was thinking the winner was a VW product….until I realized it would have been 1971 and there was nothing from them in this league at the time. I like the styling, even if not leading-edge at the time, and the attributes seemed to be very appealing. Maybe one thing against selling it in a Plymouth showroom was that the styling was not consistent with the other cars in the Chrysler line of fuselage-mobiles, whereas the Cricket was. Part of that may be that the design for this Simca would have been set by the time Chrysler acquired the company in full in 1970, whereas Rootes may likely had the US market in its crosshairs (as it had for a long time) when the car was designed under full Chrysler ownership, and featured the wide, flared “hips” of the Chrysler /Plymouth / Dodge / Imperial cars.in the USA. This article underscores how one needs to take commercial magazine car reviews with a healthy dose of skepticism….wondering what went on behind the scenes in terms a largesse or outright threats that either finesse or strongarm a win.
With all the people who say they never saw one, they probably did, it just didn’t register. Before I went to look at the one I bought in ’77 I think it was, I really didn’t know what they looked like. Not particularly memorable styling, and vaguely similar to FIAT many probably thought that’s what they were. I moved to South Lake Tahoe in ’78, a modest size town, and there were at least 4 there at the time, I saw them regularly. Of course by the time I moved in ’81 mine was the last one, I guess they had a use by date of 10 years.
It’s flaws were primarily flaws for the US market. Styling especially, the French styling didn’t translate well here, it needed a bigger engine, even just say 1400CC as it was relatively heavy at 2,000 pounds. And a place for the radio in the dash, it was hung under the dash by my left knee.
Last time I saw one of these was in Boulder, Colorado, in the spring of 1972.
How rare were 1204s in the US? In 74, Motor Trend ran a piece on various fuel efficient models that were available used, with expected prices, for people looking for an alternative to their float boat. They included the 1204 in their list, but when it came to price, MT said “even we don’t know”.
I think I have a couple 1204 road tests in my archive. I think it was the one from CR that blistered the car for it’s build quality, including a flock of vacuum hoses that were so missrouted or unconnected that several systems in the car did not function, until CR’s mechanic got the system straightened out. I can just see the beancounters at the Chrysler mother ship shouting “make it cheaper, cheaper. Quality control and inspections are extra costs to be minimized”
Recall seeing these in “magazines”, on “TV”; don’t recall ever seeing one until I made a trip to “Europe”.
That was around “1990”.
In one of those ‘what might have been’ moments’, imagine if Chrysler had eschewed the Plymouth Cricket (nee: Rootes Group Hillman Avenger) and had, instead, stayed behind the Simca 1100/1204. I can only surmise that the Cricket’s somewhat stylish small car shape won it over the rather awkward (but quite practical) Simca. Simply put, the Cricket looked way more like a Plymouth than the Simca.
While it might not have been nearly as disastrous a decision as the 1962 downsizing, the failed Plymouth Cricket experiment certainly put Chrysler’s small car program behind. Just think, they might have been able to get the Omnirizon to market two, maybe three years before 1978, right after the first Oil Crisis when a well-packaged, FWD small car would have been a runaway success.
OTOH, an earlier Omnirizon splash might have staved off Chrysler’s bankruptcy and the whole Iacocca era might never have happened, at all.
While the Plymouth Cricket was a failure, the only one I ever saw was at the Plymouth dealer, Dodge stores got the first gen Colt. The Colt was a success, and the basis for a considerable variety of Mitsubishi products at Mopar stores in the late 70s/early 80s.
One of the biggest problems with the Cricket is it didn’t seem to get much attention. I can’t recall any road test of it, much less being included in one of the small car comparisons. If there was one, seems like a reprint of it here at CC would be appropriate. In fact, in 1971, were there actually three completely different captive imports available at Chrysler (Simca), Plymouth (Cricket), and Dodge (Colt) dealers?
And, then, too, how bad was the Cricket relative to the Simca, mainly in terms of quality and service? British cars were bad, but so were French and Italian cars. It soon became very clear that the emerging foreign country for the Big 3 to link-up with was Japan.
Ironically, AMC found this out the hard way when they merged with Renault.
I remember the TV commercials for the Cricket. They had a “chirp chirp” sound in the music.
I do remember a magazine road test of the Cricket, including a shot of the engine compartment and some comment about how small the engine looked, in the large space. At the time, I was reading Mechanix Illustrated, Popular Science, and Motor Trend, so it would have been one of those three. I’m thinking it was PS. PS also did a comparison test that included a Simca 1204 wagon.
I am not sure that Renault reliability was as bad in the early 70s, as the reputation in the 80s. I have some back issues of CR from the early 70s, and the dot charts for the R10 and R12 aren’t all that bad. When Renault made it’s move on AMC, it was the largest automaker in Europe, so they must have been delivering the goods, at some point, at least relative to Fiat, VW, Peugeot, and BL. Maybe the honchos in Billancourt decided, around 78-80, that quality was a “cost to be minimized”, like GM under Roger Smith?
It was distressing how craptacular the Renault Alliance turned out to be. I especially thought the 1985-86 convertible was sharp (but not the last year 1987 dual headlight version).
In fact, the Alliance reminded me quite a bit of the worse (but way more expensive) Maserati Biturbo, a well-styled car that looked very nice, but was really bad in every other metric.
To that end, I’m amazed that Maserati is still doing business. I recently read that the depreciation on a new Maserati is absolutely abysmal.
rudiger
Posted January 13, 2024 at 8:08 AM
It was distressing how craptacular the Renault Alliance turned out to be. I especially thought the 1985-86 convertible was sharp (but not the last year 1987 dual headlight version).
Some of the former AMC styling guys come to the annual metro Detroit AMC meet each year. Their numbers have dwindled. The only ones that still show are Vince Geraci and Frank Pascoe. Vince is well over 90 now. Frank is still pretty frisky and we frequently have an interesting conversation.
So, to the point, Frank bought an Encore around 85 or 86. Received very good service from that car, had it about 8 years. Then he passed it on to some relative to use at college, and it ran for another 4 years or so. One thing he mentioned, he bought it at Coon Brothers, Coon Brothers had been an AMC dealer since before there was dirt.
I can think of two, or three, possible reasons why Frank’s Encore gave such good service: he bought it at one of the best AMC dealers in the country, who, just maybe, really gave the car the care it required. Or maybe, AMC had gotten some things sorted out by the time Frank bought his, Or maybe Coon Brothers took extra good care of Frank because he was an AMC, then Chrysler, employee.
Vince was sitting in a chair next to Frank when we were having that conversation about his Encore, and Vince mentioned that Renault refused to do any pre-production testing of the Alliance in the US. He mentioned the cooling system as being inadequate for US conditions.
Apparently there was a lot of friction between the AMC and Renault people. Apparently Bob Nixon, in AMC styling, had a way of talking down to people, which irritated the heck out of the Renault people. Nixon became convinced that, when the Renault people got off by themselves, and started talking in French, they were talking about him. Frank, being a fine arts major in college, had been required to learn a foreign language. It was a coin toss between German and French, and he took French. So Nixon made Frank his spy, ordering him to find something to do within earshot, when the Renault guys started talking in French. Turns out, Nixon was right. They were talking about him, in terms so vile that Frank didn’t even report some of it to Nixon.
What a great (but quite sad) anecdote about the inner-office workings between AMC and Renault. Massive egos within the auto industry has been a problem since the very beginning, and it’s the sort of thing that would go a long way to explaining the how and why the Alliance ended up as it did.
I’m sure there are many who would have liked to seen the Alliance been a success, but under that kind of atmosphere and inner turmoil, it seems like it was doomed to be a failure from the beginning.
Road & Track had a comparison test of the Cricket and the Dodge Colt.
Anyone have access to a digital copy of the Road & Track Cricket/Colt comparo? Seems like it would fit right in here at CC, particularly considering how those two were left out of the C&D small car comparison.
rudiger
Posted January 14, 2024 at 9:24 AM
Anyone have access to a digital copy of the Road & Track Cricket/Colt comparo?
I was digging through my archive tonight, and found this. Also found road tests of the Simca 1204 by Tom McCahill, Consumer Reports, Motor Trend and R&T,
Well, the server didn’t like the 5meg version of the scan. Let’s try a 1.18meg.
As an engineering student and car guy, I was very impressed with the Alliance when introduced. My best friend’s Dad came into some money and financed a new burgundy four door in the fall of 83 or 84 for him from Richards’ AMC in Union, NJ to replace his 71 Nova. It was quite peppy and looked pretty neat with it’s whitewall tires, metallic paint, and funky seats. He was smitten too until about 35,000 on the odo when the trans axle blew. He bought an extended warranty so they covered the second one at less than 70,000 after many visits to the dealer and calls to AMC. At the next hint of slipping he tried to trade it in and was offered well below what he owned on the loan. After it sat on his lawn with a for sale sign for 6 months, off it went to some other unsuspecting soul for less than $500 in 1987.Truly a missed opportunity for Renault and AMC.
I bought my Simca 1204 in Helena Montana as a university graduation gift in 1971.. I chose it and never regretted it. “Butch” as she was known was a little super car. If I could find one I would buy it again .