(First Posted October 2, 2013) The 1979 incarnation of the historic Talbot name had a very high ambition-to-achievement ratio, the zenith of which was the Talbot Tagora. It was also pretty close to the bottom of the Talbot achievement list.
Cast your mind back to 1976: Chrysler still harboured ambitions to match GM and Ford’s European operations. GM, of course, had Opel in Germany and Vauxhall in the U.K., by this time converging onto a single model plan, whilst Ford had a complete range of cars common to its British and German organisations. Ford had operations in Spain, and GM planned on being there by 1982.
By 1970, Chrysler had assembled a Chrysler Europe group, based around the British Rootes Group (Hillman, Humber, Sunbeam, Singer and Commer trucks); France’s SIMCA (whose history–formerly Ford de France, then an assembler of FIATs under licence before being owned by Chrysler–itself merits review here); and Spain’s Barreiros, which manufactured diesel engines, trucks and assembled some American Dodge products under licence. With the SIMCA building blocks at its center, the product range was beginning to come together. The expected path of travel was quite clear: the conservative Rootes products–including the Hillman Hunter, Imp and Avenger, cars that matched any British product for conservative mediocrity–would be phased out. Their U.K. assembly plants would be converted to provide more assembly capacity for SIMCA-based products, especially the 1100, which was France’s best seller in the late 1960s.
But Chrysler Europe’s first products were the Chrysler 180 and later 2.0-Litre saloons. These were intended,to replace the large Humber Hawk and Super Snipe ranges in the U.K., and lead SIMCA into the larger family-car market in France, going head-to-head with the Peugeot 504, Citroen DS and upcoming Renaults. Chrysler spoke of it as a challenger to the BMW 2000.
It failed. It bombed. In every market but Spain, it became an also-ran. (although my Dad liked his 2-Litre automatic). In view of its new relationship with European countries not named Spain, Chrysler proceeded to move production to the Barreiros plant.
By 1978, Chrysler had won the European Car of the Year award (or as we Brits called it straightforwardly, “Car of the Year”) twice: with the Alpine/SIMCA 1307/1308 range in 1975, and with the (European) Horizon in 1978. Both were very strong sellers right out of the box–especially in France, where they replaced well-respected SIMCA products. The U.K. took longer to adjust, though.
Chrysler planned to follow up these successes with a new large car, known as C9, to compete with the Ford Granada, Opel Rekord, Peugeot 504, Rover 2300/2600 and the like. I think it fair to say that the the styling, by Art Blakeslee of Chrisler U.K., wasn’t his best work, possibly because he left his French curves at home and had only a ruler. Meanwhile, Chrysler France was responsible for the engineering. Engines were to be existing 2.0- and 2.2-litre engines from the Chrysler Europe range. Per market demand, Chrysler wanted to offer a six-cylinder option and considered using a Mitsubishi motor, or the Peugeot/Renault/Volvo V6, which was refused them. That refusal soon became unimportant; in 1978, Chrysler, now under huge financial pressure, sold all its European operations to Peugeot-Citroën, for the sum of $1.00 and liability for the debts.
That changed the scene for the C9 project in two ways: first, given the extensive Peugeot-Citroen range, was it really needed, and if so, how and where would it fit in; and second, how to utilize the potential sharing of existing Peugeot enginering. It became clear how this would be resolved: Peugeot rebranded the entire Chrysler Europe range as Talbot, an old name with both British and French histories, and planned a separate range of Talbot cars to be topped off by the C9. To separate Talbot from Peugeot and Citroën, it was to have a younger (yes, of course!) image, aimed at the ambitious and aspiring, based on a modern style and motor sport participation and sponsorship–a sort of budget BMW. Hmmm.
The C9 was adapted to use items from the Peugeot parts catalogue. The proposed double wishbone front suspension was replaced with MacPherson struts adopted from the Peugeot 505 and 604, and the rear axle was replaced with that of the narrower 505. The front end was extended by some two inches to accommodate the optional PRV V6 engine that was now available. A Peugeot gearbox was used. The car was almost a 505 wearing a different suit and with a different four-cylinder engine, but had no image to build on.
The interior was of its time: superficially modern, but closer inspection revealed a lot of highly styled and not very special plastic. The interior shot above shows an early trip computer (or ordinateur du bord, in French) in the centre of the dash. Without it, you got a piece of black plastic with the letters TALBOT pressed into it. There is a certain similarity to the interior of the 1976 Rover 3500 SD1, with an instrument binnacle placed on top of an open dash, a not dissimilar steering wheel, and no traditional luxury-car wood or leather in sight (although in 1982, the Rover was revised with newly added wood and leather).
It was a large interior though, thanks to a wheelbase of 109″, and with 163 bhp, the V6 was well equipped to compete with the (UK) market-leading Granada V6 and Rover 3500.
In early 1981, it came onto the European market. Contemporary critical reaction was to the effect that the car offered little if anything that others didn’t, at a time when the market for such cars was beginning to shrink. Production of 60,000 units a year had been planned; after three years and 20,000 cars, Peugeot pulled the plug.
I saw this one at a car show in southwest France; the twin pipes and the SX badge identify it as the V6 model, of which just over 1,000 were sold. I cannot recall the last time I saw any Tagora on the road, anywhere; published figures suggest there may be fewer than 10 of all types left in the U.K.
Was this a perfectly good enough car trapped by the circumstances of an unknown brand, confused engineering and unhappy styling, or was it just not good enough? My hunch is it that the answer lies somewhere in the middle–the car was not distinctive enough to rise above its unknown brand, and even if it had been, it probably wasn’t good enough to do so–in other words, the very issues that had so hindered the Chrysler 180 and 2-Litre 10 years earlier.
Great article! Although reading about Chrysler/Rootes/Talbot always makes my head spin.
Concerning the styling job on the featured car, I’ll be polite and say it looks a little uninspired. Actually, even after thirty years and seen through rose-colored CC glasses, it’s still a total dud. Even the Talbot Solara looks classy in comparison.
I must agree with Lukas on the styling. Is it just generic 80s? Maybe all of the worst features of early 80s styling. It seemed that the mass of angularity, body seams and creases was more often seen on European cars than on American ones of that time, but to my American eyes, it is not a good look.
I sort of like the looks of the Chrysler 180. And I love the ad that refers to them as “the Car Craftsmen.” Unless the European assembled jobs were leagues better than the American ones, if any company of the 70s could be called “car craftsmen”, it would definitely not be Chrysler.
I keep being amazed by Lynn Townsend’s leadership of Chrysler. He took over in late 1961, and started with a big mess. Then, over the space of the next 14 years, managed to create an even bigger mess.
I’d like to think that this “inspired” the ZiL 4102 concept car that was never built. Just imagine a group of Soviet draftsman pulled away from their usual tractor-design duties, poring over ratty old buff books, trying to figure out what Western car to plagiarize for their fearless leaders. “Ah, the Talbot Tagora. Comrade Andropov will simply adore it!”
That looks like it was pulled straight from a Grand Theft Auto game!
Wow, we think alike!
A high end car for the country’s leaders – yet it is pictured on old cracked concrete.
Wow, never seen or heard of the 4102 concept car, very interesting – thanks for the photo!
The terrible sales may have something to do with the fact that it’s a hideous box of a thing. Maybe.
It looks like a giant Renault Alliance (Renault 9 outside of USA).
I’ll admit I’ve always liked the quiet styling of the Tagora. Unfortunately, this was yet another car that really didn’t have a reason to exist, other than the old “we bought the brand, so we have to put out some kind of product.” And the end result just about screamed that attitude from the rooftops.
I assume that the V-6 engine was the same one used in the DeLorean?
Another grand old name of the European grand carossiers going out with an absolute whimper rather than any kind of a bang.
Hi, indeed the engine was shared with the Delorean, the Renault 30, Peugeot 604 and Volvo 260 and 760 range. But always bulit in France
There’s a definite family resemblance to the Omni, and to a lesser degree, the K-cars. Makes me wonder if it was ever considered for the US, during its development phase.
Almost certainly not. It wouldn’t have worked for Chrysler in the US, and certainly Peugeot had no desire to try to introduce a new brand in the US.
Funny, I kinda thought the same thing, it reminds me of the later Eagle Premier/Dodge Monaco that we got in the late 80’s. The car itself looks like a Volvo 740 knock off, except that it pre-dates the 740? Weird.
This was perhaps the most prominent design theme of the time, which the Audi 80/Fox and VW Passat/Dasher helped pioneer. It could be seen in many variations all over Europe.
Blame it on Giorgetto Giugiaro’s Lotus Espirt prototype of 1971, which really got the origami look going. https://www.curbsideclassic.com/curbside-classics-european/curbside-classic-1977-lotus-esprit-s1-giorgetto-giugiaro-takes-up-origami/
It’s similar to the Eagle Premier in that it they were both essentially complete projects at the time of an acquisition that the new buyer built but had no love for, and introduced under a new brand. Of course it was Chrysler that dumped the one and got saddled with the other. They also have the PRV V6 in common. French karma, perhaps.
I agree, it does share some Premier and Renault 25 characteristics, but when you get close the edges and sides of the AMC/Renault are softer and rounder than the Tagora
These were rare when new,a big Ford,Vauxhall or Rover could be had around the same money and that’s what happened.I only recall seeing 2 or 3 of them when new,the 80s wasn’t a great period for car styling though some music was pretty good.
It’s everything unfortunate about a number of ’80s cars. Lots of sharp cornered plastic in the interior. An over simple interior meant in the U.S. to be an antidote to broughamitis. Four bolt wheels almost always lead to unfortunate wheel styling.
Nice piece Roger, and well done finding one of these rarities! I remember seeing a photo of one in one of those exhaustive car books I pored over as a kid and wondering why I’d never seen one (it was a contemporary car at the time but I don’t recall ever seeing one in person then or since)
I’d have to disagree with your analysis of the styling and interior though. Both read from a modern day perspective (what car in 1982 had anything other than “not very special plastic” for its dash? Soft touch wasn’t even a gleam in a chemist’s eye back then and it’s well before the era of brushed metal…).
The styling certainly looks boxy and dated next to Ford’s groundbreaking Sierra of the same year, but the Sierra was a seismic shift in styling and didn’t go down well in the first few years. Compare this with more acceptably “mainstream” competitors of the time like the (European) Ford Granada – it’s unimaginative sure, but it’s styled very cleanly and suitably for its intended market. There’s even (dare I say it) some foreshadowing in the lines, proportions and stance of the E34 BMW 5-series which wouldn’t appear for another 7 years (with – admittedly – much softer creases and far greater success)
Where I’d agree wholeheartedly with your piece though is the conclusion that this car is somewhere in between “perfectly good enough” (damning with faint praise) and not. It didn’t stand out from the crowd at a time when the “large” segment of the European car market was entering a sharp decline. That and it’s lack of a coherent brand did for it in the end… and since it doesn’t shine in any real sense nobody sheds any tears over that.
only reason the 180 didnt fail in spain, was that the cab drivers bought them up like crazy.
The talbot/simca 1100s were quite common for the masses. as well as the talbot horizons(aka dodge horizon) which were also quite common as cabs and used by the national police.
Not too many of any still around as they all rusted in the lovely mediterrean air.
It probably would have been better to badge this as a Simca in France and a Hillman or Sunbeam in the UK, much like GM kept the separate Vauxhall and Opel brands even after the product lines were consolidated.
“France’s SIMCA (whose history–formerly Ford de France, then an assembler of FIATs under licence before being owned by Chrysler–itself merits review here)”
Just the opposite … SIMCA-FIAT was created in 1934 (became SIMCA in 38) as an assembler of FIATs in France but started quickly to build its own model. SIMCA bought Ford France actives (Poissy’s plant and the Vedette were the most interesting parts of the deal) around 52 and then was bought by Chrysler from 58 to 70 (took them all this time to buy all the shares), before being sold to Peugeot in 78.
I remember thinking at the time “this is not going to turn out well”. And not just about the Tagora, but the whole Talbot mess.
Thanks for this very thorough trip back to a difficult era. Makes it a bit easier to see why BMW, Audi and MBZ are so dominant in this class in Europe.
I’ve been cursed with BMW’s as company cars (3 series, 5 series, X5, X6) never liked any of them so the moment I switched jobs and had to buy my own car I bought a Lexus. Logical dashboard, logical controls and air conditioning that actually works. I’ll never understand why BMW is something people actually aspire to.
A lot of people here knocking the styling, I think it looks very advanced for a car that came out in 1979, the styling is very 80’s. If it said Volvo on the front, they would be short stroking all over it. Is it anti-French bias or ?
Even compared to the VW Passat, which came out in 1973, or six years earlier?
The notchback roof and the, at least visually, “flusher” windshield and side glass seem more 1984 than 1974.
By 1984, the Audi C3 100 was already two years old. When it arrived in the fall of 1982, all these old boxy rectilinear designs were instantly obsolete.
The Tagora represented the tail end of that design era. True, Volvo kept it going almost forever, but the nobody said Volvos were fashionable.
Every executive car in the seventies was square and boxy.
But of course there’s always an exception to the rule.
this version of the passat came out in 1977 and some of its styling was pre-dated by the 1975 simca 1307, which, on the other hand sourced its whole conception from the 73 passat.
or am i wrong an the accolades for the ur-mittelklasse-hatchback go to a completely different car?
At least it was less extreme than this 1976 Aston Martin Lagonda.
http://www.netcarshow.com/aston_martin/1976-lagonda/
That’s one ugly brute of a car.Just shows tons of money and good taste rarely go together
I remember seeing ads for the Tagora in “Car” magazine (UK) in the early 80s. With some imagination it resembled a poor man’s Lagonda, the absolute king of straight-ruler car design.
As I recall they sold a large proportion of Lagondas to newly-rich oil sheiks with hideous taste.
The Tagora’s proportions look a bit off. Maybe it’s the lack of a U.S.-spec sized front bumper? Its headlights and tiny grille are placed fairly low, and are completely flush and upright. Looks like they were just painted on to the sheet metal. Its wheel arches (especially the rear ones) are very low, making it look top heavy as well. Whatever the reasons, IMO it’s quite a homely car.
Thanks for sharing though! It’s always interesting learning about cars from other parts of the world.
Talbot was dead at birth. As I remember there was a Peugeot 107 clone that came out as the only other model. There was a (b?$6:”!0&) Mid sized model that was to come out as a Talbot, but eventually released as a Peugeot 309.
It was ugly and Nedless to say that did not do well. And that is why the the new 308 is using the same number as the old 308. Unless 309 means something rude in China.
The Talbot (b?$6:”!0&) GTi 16v wasn’t too bad however.
Ooooh, that’s a homely car. When I see it, it’s the response to the question, What would a car designed by DFACS workers look like? The Volvo 850 and Renault 21/Medallion had similar lines, but they didn’t have such wide panel gaps, poorly executed black plastic and brightwork, or such deeply indented character lines, and the proportions on this thing are just enough off. That grille isn’t doing the car any favours either. There are plenty of ruler-designed cars that look good but this thing is awful.
Was the earlier 180/2-Litre about the size of a Ford Cortina? The styling there smacks of a store brand version of the Mk 2 Cortina.
Without looking it up, my memory suggests it was larger than the Cortina; maybe more like the Granada, or at least in between.
They were pretty close to a Mk 3 Cortina, perhaps a touch smaller (nb have not checked the numbers!)
The 180/2-Litre/Centura (the Australian version) were half a size bigger than the Cortina. Sort of half way between the Cortina and the Granada. Despite being half a size bigger, the Australian Centura was available with the Australian Valiant’s straight 6 engines, in order to compete with the Cortina and Holden’s Torana, both of which were available with straight-6 engines (and V8s in the case of the Torana). I’ve got the 180/2-Litre brochure, I’ll dig it out and check the dimensions.
Righty, I have the 180 brochure open in front of me: “The rather exclusive Chrysler 180 for 1972” it says – exclusive is one way of saying “No-one will care” perhaps! Surprisingly it’s an exceptionally high quality brochure for the time – 16 heavy weight extremely glossy pages with some of the best quality photos I’ve seen in a ’70s brochure. I took a photo of the most amusing page (“This is the view most motorists will get…”) and posted it below.
Anyway, back to the specs, here are the quoted 180 dimensions (in mm), with the Mk III Cortina and Mk I Granada (UK) following:
Wheelbase: 2667, 2565, 2718
Length: 4534, 4261, 4572
Width: 1727, 1702, 1791
Weight (kg):1095, 965, 12-1400
So yes, definitely between the Cortina and Granada, and wheelbase and length are closer to the Granny. Now I need to find my Tagora brochure and see what it says! (Finding the Tagora one may take some weeks, it’s somewhere in my storage boxes).
The styling was largely scaled-up Hillman Avenger (Plymouth Cricket in US).
Very nice write up of a rare car, I thoroughly enjoyed reading about it! The interior looks to be in excellent condition and looks nice for a car of this vintage.
They tried the 180 in Australia too as the Chrysler Centura from 75 to 78. The Matador-style nose was to give room for the giant 3.5 or 4 litre 6 cyl hemi engines. Was meant to be earlier but with Chryco’s usual wretched luck: they were boycotted by the unions for years because of French atom bomb tests in the Pacific. The Centura bombed in the other sense too.
The boycott resulted in cars sitting on the docks as CKD kits too, so once built were not cars you wanted to own!
Even without the French boycott, they were not a car to buy. The six cylinder was almost as bad a handler as the local Falcon engined Cortina and that is saying something!
The Cortina 6 may not have handled that well, but I’m sure nothing came even close to achieving the handling zenith of the 6-cylinder Morris Marina… 😉
Oh dear,I hoped Australian Leyland made better cars than BL it seems they made as many duds as we did.
I had a Centura 4.0L it went like a bullet much faster off the line and thru the gears than a Falcon V8 they were the fastest accelerating Australian car of the era and could cruise happily at 175kmh comfortable and fast they didnt corner particularly well though much better that the awful 6 cylinder Cortina. Very few left alive they rusted badly. Chrysler AU did experiment with V8 versions but the bodyshell was too weak
I’ve seen only one of these in my life, it was from an old neighbor of an high school friend, with Fiat Tipo hubcaps, no less…all ‘n all a big and ugly car without any remarkable feature built by a manufacturer that had no real brand cachet, no wonder it failed miserably when you had so many choices on the premium segment
The Kiwi Chrysler/Mitsubishi importer in the 1980s, Todd Motors, imported a solitary Tagora here in 1983 to gauge interest – the Avenger and the Simca 1307 had both been rebadged Talbot , so the brand was known, and the quite pretty 1307 (aka Alpine) was still selling okay. As a (then) 9 year old, I was fascinated by the photos of the Tagora in the local car magazines. I liked the styling because it looked so darn different in the photos (even in black and white). I was even more delighted to see that very car in the metal in the late 80s, parked in town outside a restaurant (I wrote down the number plate and checked it with the car magazine whe I got home; it was the same). Even in the metal I thought it looked good. A sad way to end the many storied brands of the Chrysler-Europe stable.
Update: I found the 1983 article on the sole Kiwi Tagora in one of my old folders and did a rego check on the car. Turns out that it’s still on the road here today, albeit with fairly low mileage so likely in a collection somewhere.
Scott,
i am really interested in a copy of this article. I would appreciate if you could get in touch with me by email via: blog @ altefranzosen.de .
Thanks
Peter
No problem Peter, I’ve scanned it and will email the high-resolution scan to you shortly. I’ve also posted a lower-resolution copy of the article below if any other CCers are interested. Amusingly, the article is entitled “Contemporary Automotive Antiquity”, as halfway through the magazine’s test, the Tagora was discontinued! However the magazine (the now defunct New Zealand Motor World) “…decided to carry on regardless…[because]…a report on a car that’s already extinct will be even harder to find in 20 years’ time than the car itself.” In the pre-internet age, those were very true words – thankfully the Tagora interested me enough to cut the article out of the magazine, ready to share it 30 years later!
Interestingly, as I noted above, the particular Tagora tested also still survives here 30 years later too. It’s had the same owner since 1988, and has covered around 70,000km since then, so is likely with someone who cherishes it. It was a V6 SX model, new here on 23 February 1982. The road test was published in the October-November 1983 issue of the magazine though, as the car was an evaluation/road test model for the Chrysler/Talbot importer, Todd Motors, who owned it until 1986.
Phantastic!
Thanks a lot
Peter
Scott, if you still read here, would really appreciate a high res scan of the article and even better a lead to the owner of the car. Thanks!
Peter
blog @ altefranzosen.de
Hey Peter, yes I still read (and write!) here. I tried emailing you the scan twice in December, but it bounced back saying the email address doesn’t work. I can’t supply a lead to the car’s owner unfortunately, as although our vehicle registration records are fully accessible to the public, the owner’s details aren’t accessible due to our privacy laws. I’m happy to try sending you the scan again this week when I get a moment. Cheers, Scott.
Hi again Peter, I’ve re-sent the article to you now. Hopefully it doesn’t bounce back this time! Cheers, Scott.
I think I’ve read somewhere that the whole Chrysler-Europe mess was such a pile of trouble nobody would dare to touch it.
The takeover didnt make any sense for Peugeot with completely overlapping ranges and brands and Peugeot, just after the takeover of Citroen, being in rather dire straits in the late 70s itself.
The whole thing was a case of French interventionist politics: The Peugeot family had SIMCA/Rootes/Chrysler literally shoved down their throats by the french government, who didn’t want to see factories closed and jobs lost. Which was avoided only by Peugeot coming up with the 205, which was such a hit (and rightfully so!) that it could actually make use of all the factory capacities.
Still, i quite like the Tagora. It made no sense at all when it came about, neither for Peugeot nor for any prospective buyer, with a fictional branding raised from the dead … no wonder it was killed off asap. I only remember seeing a Tagora once on the streets. It truly is one of the biggest oddballs of recent automotive history.
I do own three of these, these are great cars and especially the SX with the 166HP 6 cylnder is a pleasure to drive. Very comfortable, solid (it is basically a Peugeot 504 with a different body) and very reliable. The SX is fast (200 km/h) and has excellent acceleration (0 to 100km/h in under 8 secs). While derived from the Peugeot PRV engine, its engine has been largeley modified from the version found in 504 or 604’s by Talbot using a pair of triple Weber 40IDA’s (yes the very ones you find in a Ferrari). modified camshafts, Mahle pistons, Venturi valves etc. All this ex factory, a true wolf in sheep’s clothing!
Greetings from Germany
Peter
http://www.altefranzosen.de
Peter, you have an amazing garage! The Tagora isn’t getting a lot of love here, but it warms my hear to learn that someone is collecting & caring for these.
There are many cars that I fear will disappear completely because they never found an enthusiast base. The Chrysler E-Class, Eagle Premier, the R-body Chryslers…. (hmmm, there’s a lot of Mopar on my list!). I would certainly have put the Tagora on the list… if I were able to remember it! So it’s really wonderful to know that the Tagora will live on.
Styling wise, the Tagora could have been a lot worse, and it would certainly have looked like a Chrysler / Simca / Talbot to those accustomed to the Alpine and Horizon. Certainly no worse than contemporary Fords & Vauxhalls. The interior looks pretty good for 1979, with a modern simplicity and no preensions of plastic wood. But without a large dealer network and strong fleet sales, it would never beat Ford & Vauxhall – a situation that is undoubtedly chicken and egg.
But iit all just shows what a mess BL made of the Rover 2300 / 2600 / 3500 SD1 – it should have cleaned up against the Grandad / Vauxhall Whatever / sundry French and Italian stuff (inc this), but didn’t, because they couldn’t make enough of them, and those that did didn’t work properly. There’s a book in there somewhere.
When Chrysler was added to Peugeot Citroën, the PSA company was founded, Peugeot Societe Anonyme and nobody was waiting for the Tagora back then, they already had the CX and the 505 and the ‘Tagora simply did not fit in.
They did not need a third competitor in the market.
The 2.2 litre engine from the Tagora was used for the CX and 505 and was also used in the Group B Citroen BX 4TC rallye car. (with a turbo of course )
PSA were suffering at the time, they had absolutely not recoved from the Citorën takeover by Peugeot and Talbot simply added to the nuisance with many a model where the two homeboys were already well represented.
So a death scenario for Talbot was unveiled and Talbot died a silent death after PSA made arrangments that Peugeot and Citroen could cover Talbot’s market and customers.
PSA were nearly bankrupt when the for them god-given 205 Peugeot was launched that saved the company, together with the BX from Citroen.
The 160/180 Series never added anything to the market at that time, they were not particulary good, nor particulary cheap.
They were bland Euro-American cars, to British for the French to French for the British.
These cars were not excelling in anything, a 504 was a better car and at Ford or Vauxhall/Opel you got more car for your money.
The biggest failwas that they never ever fited these with a Diesel engine, so popular in this size of car on the European continent.
And they failed to launch a stationwagon.
The Spanish bought them en masse, because at that time the Spanish market was locked for imports and cars had to be assembled locally, and this was the biggest car made in Spain.
So in Spain they were cheap and did not have any competiton.
The only real competition the 180 would have had in Spain was the Seat 132,available also with a Mercedes Benz diesel engine for taxi fleets.
I am from The Netherlands and i own this Talbot Tagora 2.2 GLS with only 15.000 miles, and it is in perfect shape. I like the handling of the car and its looks. In 2014 i am going to drive to England with the Tagora.
Looks great Alex!
Hi Alex,
looks superb; and a great colour. I doubt there is a better or lower lileage Tagora any where now.
Are you going to a specific show in England in 2014?
Hi Roger,
I search a long time for a low mileage Tagora and were Lucky to found one!
It is a GLS with some SX options, like the TRX wheels.
11, 12 and 13 juli there is a international Simca, Matra, Sunbeam and Talbot meeting in Beaulieu, in the near of Southampton! Every 2 years we have this meeting and the last time there were over 250 cars!
We expecting at least 8 Tagora’s.
Hi Alex,
are you still planning to be at Beaulieu this weekend? I’m hoping to be there on Saturday, so I’ll look out for you.
Imp? Conservation mediocrity? Or underdeveloped but over ambitious innovation?
MICHAEL 1963, From Italy.
La Talbot TAGORA mi riporta alla mia prima giovinezza e al tempo di quando presi la patente, ossia ai primi anni ’80. In Italia non ne sono mai circolate molte, anche nei tempi in cui era sul mercato, complice la motorizzazione a benzina di 2200 cc per nulla diffusa sul nostro mercato e della linea poco latina. Le poche, pochissime che si vendettero, erano diesel 2300cc, motorizzazione più idonea alle nostre esigenze. A me la Tagora all’epoca piaceva, credo perchè era un’auto imponente e poco diffusa. Una volta, ad una fiera visitata con la scuola, in uno stand dove esponevano le Talbot, c’era una TAGORA in bella vista e io osai, mi sedetti al volante e la cosa mi piacque tanto. Quella TAGORA era proprio bella , mi piaceva! Ora ormai in giro non se ne vedono più da anni! L’ultimo avvistamento risale a Nuova Cliternia il 15 agosto 2011, alla festa patronale, dove vidi una Tagora diesel grigia un pò malconcia, con targa francese.
Stylistically the Tagora’s worst mistake is keeping the Peugeot 505 rear axle, far too narrow!
I read recently that the PRV V6 installed in Tagoras was very varied in power due to variations in the carburettors fitted, some were dyno’ed at around 200 bhp. That’s part of the reason why motoring legend LJK Setright was fairly fond of the Tagora.
Great piece Roger. I never really warmed to the styling of these. Then or now. Though sharp edged design was popular at the time, these were too angular IMO. Looking like a Moskvitch version of the Audi 5000.
HubNut did a test drive on a 1981 Tagora on YouTube:
At first glance the Tagora made me mistake it for a Renault 21.
It’s a little bit surprising that this was even developed by Chrysler rather than making the K-car a global platform with the extended model in the Tagora’s bracket and the regular one planned to replace the Alpine which was six years old by ’81.
Hardcore badge engineering went into the Argentine VW 1500
Apparently the Tagora was a good handler and had a well sorted ride. It suffered from some lack of development. Many small details were not properly attended to. For example, the air flow through the cabin wasn’t as good as it could have been. Also the choice of tyres meant that despite high roadholding ability in the dry, it could become wayward in the wet.
Other issues included that the styling development was not quite finished when the decision to freeze the design for manufacture was given (similar story to what befell the Jaguar XJ40). Earlier Tagora prototypes do look more interesting and sleeker than did the production car. Then there was the decision to put the narrow 505 suspension under the car. It all detracted from aspects of the styling to a greater or lesser extent.
The most interesting story about the Tagora is that Chrysler Australia wanted it as a replacement for the Valiant. Peugeot were open to selling it to them lock stock and barrel. The trouble was that the price Peugeot demanded was way too high for Chrysler Australia’s financial resources.
It seems that Chrysler USA were not aware or did not care that their Australian operation needed the C9 (what we now know of as the Tagora) in order to compete with the upcoming Holden Commodore and, more significantly, the Ford XD Falcon, so they sold it to the French along with the rest of the European operation. This decision was to doom Chrysler’s Australian branch, leading to its sale to Mitsubishi not so many years later.
Chrysler Australia knew they needed the car and sent senior executives to France on several occasions to discuss a potential deal and the conditions for purchase. They were well looked after, wined and dined generously at the best restaurants by their Peugeot counterparts. The French were serious about getting a deal done. Trouble was that price. It was too high.
It is fascinating to consider what Chrysler Australia were planning to do with the car. As with Holden’s Commodore (which was based on an Opel) there would have been significant strengthening of the shell (although the Tagora was thought to be pretty good in this regard already) and improved the weather sealing. The best part is that it would have been powered by the mighty Chrysler hemi six (up to 4.3 litres in the largest size and over 300bhp for the sportiest version from the E49!). Chrysler Oz was planning to stretch the wheelbase to handle their in-line sixes by moving the front wheels forward (something Peugeot was later to do in accommodating the PRV V-6 engine, although likely not by as much as the Australians were thinking).
Previously Chrysler Australia’s engineering team had wanted a dramatic stretch to the earlier Centura’s wheelbase by moving the front wheels well forward in order to get the hemi engine low and cited inside the wheelbase. They were vetoed from doing this by the accountants since they also proposed to make extensive alterations to the firewall (which needed strengthening) and various other parts of the structure (which needed stiffening). This would have needed local tooling constructed as well as extra work tasks on the assembly lines. The issue was that these changes were to be made to a CKD car already in production and they were all invisible to the purchaser. So, no sales appeal, it was stated. Note that the engineers certainly knew what was needed to fit the hemi engine. This time they would have the opportunity to engineer the car as they wanted right from the get go- for the manufacturing of the car was to be accomplished entirely in Australia without the need significant off-shore component or assembly supply.
So imagine what could have been… It would have been a nice piece of kit in all likelyhood. Likely a game changer for Crysler Australia and their fortunes. Meanwhile, I’d take a 265 Hemi in E49 tune for weekends and an ELB version for the rest of the week!