I saved pictures of this eBay find sometime ago, and never got around to posting it. But long story short, bidding for the item, listed at $11,000, ended; I assume it didn’t sell. Ninety-five percent of our readers will be confounded by such an idea, about sixty percent of whom will have good reasons for their resentment and forty percent who won’t. But regardless of your viewpoint, is this listing indicative of new trends in the world of collector cars?
Whether or not this car is actually worth five figures is irrelevant to those who’d actually pay to own it. There are a select few people who will in fact pay this kind of money for the cars they grew up with, and to them, it’s not as ridiculous as it may seem to the rest of us. And among new car buyers who find that the likes of today’s $25,000 Civic Si (or what have you) leaves them cold, with its electric power steering, drive-by-wire throttle delay and distant cowl, a car like this could work as a fun daily driver.
Around here, the third-gen cars are among our favorite Civics and in two-year only fuel-injected Si hatchback trim, this is the most desirable variant (and one of the most uncommon). Although, lacking the feedback carb’s bird’s nest of vacuum hoses, it’s also one of the more long-lived. This particular car, with 57,000 miles on it, has largely disappeared from anywhere salt is used, and out in the West and the South, is still unlikely to be found in like-new condition.
…but shouldn’t a car like this be preserved? And would you pay $11k for the privilege of owning a car you can barely drive without worry? Will a car like this ever be worth this much money? Let’s investigate current eBay offerings. This ’86 CRX Si, possibly as nice, with 70k miles is listed at $8,000. This ’89 CRX Si, with 140k miles on it, has its current bid at set $5,000, though the reserve has not yet been met. It would appear values are on the upswing for what are becoming more widely accepted as classics.
Moving outside the Honda realm, we see that not all cars are held in such high esteem. This 1969 Mazda 1200 coupe–not pristine, but quite clean and serviceable–is being offered at $4,888. As such a rare car, it’s arguably more worth the investment, and does a more commonly preserved but older and sportier ’83 RX7 with 99k miles strike you, at $7,000, as worth the same as, or less than, the Civics listed above? How about this coeval, and less widely appreciated, ’87 RX7 (with automatic–ew), with 58k miles?
For those of us who love Japanese classics, it’s always been hard to determine a car’s value. We’re surrounded by folks who say the cars are essentially worthless (there are certainly great arguments to be made as to why you wouldn’t pay $11k for an ’86 Civic) but who’d pay $110k for a 1970 Hemi ‘Cuda. Don’t worry, I understand the two are not comparable, but that’s still ten times as much money for a car you definitely wouldn’t be able to take out often without needing to meditate beforehand.
So what determines value or legendary status? Relevance within pop culture (how many ’71 Hemi ‘Cudas were destroyed in Phantasm and its sequels? How many import fans have been humiliated by the Fast And Furious franchise?) or is it more personal? Would you pay big money for a classic others wouldn’t appreciate?
Interesting question.
One of the factors in making what was once a common, ie not exotic car valuable is that they were not rare when they were new, at least not all versions. So you had the guy that had the regular Civic, or maybe his buddy had one, he liked it, and always lusted for the Si. Now that they are older and have some money they will pay big bucks for what they couldn’t have when they were younger. It really is analogous to the high prices payed for Hemi cars to a certain point.
The problem with paying a big premium for a car like this is twofold. If you buy it and use it, it will quickly depreciate to virtually nothing. If you buy it and not use it, well, what good is that?
$11k? Nope.
It’s clean and all but that’s just too much to pay for something from 1986.
An unmodified Grand National or Regal T-Type in decent shape is easily worth $11K. A particularly nice low mileage example will go for at least $15K.
There are a number of things from 1986 I’d gladly pay $11K or more for, if I had the money to spare on a weekend driver and its upkeep… Grand National? M6? 560SEC? 328GTS? I could go on…
No way in hell would I pay 11,000 for that Civic, but as others have pointed out there are a lot of cars from 1986 worth 11,000.
They already mention the Grand National but I’ll mention it again because those cars are awesome.
I drive a 1990 Celica Alltrac that I picked up for 1800 bucks with 70,000 miles on it. It’s a car to me but I’ve had offers of much more than I paid for it because to a lot of people a Celica Alltrac is a rare, cool car. I’m probably going to sell it and get a early 70’s Nova, but I don’t want an SS or Yenko “tribute”, I just want a plain jane Nova, which very few other people seem to want.
Anyway my point is different strokes for different folks. If someone wants to pay 11,000 for an 86 Civic it’s their money I guess.
Round here the glean GN’s seem to bring 20K plus I saw a clean low mile one go for 25K at a local car show a few years ago. Actually upset me a little because the same car could have been bought for about 7k 8-9 years ago.
$11k for that? Ummm… no. Good car, yes, but a throwaway car nonetheless like the Pintos and Vegas and Corollas and B210’s of the previous decade, and with the exception of the Cosworth Vega they’re all pretty much worthless today.
That’s what folks were saying about all kinds of now-valuable American cars once upon a time…
I’d have a hard time referring to any 80’s Honda as a throwaway car. Those things were built to last. Maybe they didn’t expect them to become collector’s items, but they did expect them to be around for a while. And this is in the same vein as the Cosworth vega, though perhaps not as radical a transformation from the original (nor as pricey an option).
I wouldn’t pay $11K. But some people might. Asked for a reasonable price for this obviously well cared-for machine, I might say $7500 would be fair. Still not small change for a 28 year old Civic!
Built to last? Not in northeast Ohio…
If this was a Sentra or Tercel, it would just be another old (but fun) appliance. But these are some of the very cars, along with the CRX, that put Honda on the map as something more than an appliance, so they should justifiably command a higher price. That said, $11k is (I think) a bit overly ambitious. That’s almost Grand National money for a car that, up until a few years ago, was still being trashed by high school kids as disposable transportation.
I know of two of these in town that I’ve shot. Maybe I should snap them up?
Here’s the other:
Do it! I have a great place you can store it/them. *cough*
Nuthin rare about them Paul there are plenty still used as daily dungas here in Napier.
Yes, if they can be obtained for a good price and they’re not gross inside. I’d hold out for a first-gen Integra (five door, five speed), but at least the Si can be fitted with a number of interesting powertrain options if the 1.5 12-valve isn’t enough.
Love those old “breadvan” Civics, & this one is in amazing condition, considering its age & spec. This generation seems to be a favorite among the boy-racer crowd, for better or worse.
I’d be sorely tempted. I’d much rather have it than any other sub-$20,000 car I can think of. And with 57,000 miles on the clock, there’s another 10 years at 12,000 miles a year in it.
Interesting question. In my world, used Hondas of whatever age and condition have always been relatively expensive, so I suppose it should not surprise me that a really, really nice one could fetch into five figures.
The rule seems to be that whatever you really, really wanted your parents to buy when you were 11 is one of the categories of collectible cars. Or, what you really, really wanted in high school or college or right out of college but could not afford. I could see this Honda making either one of those lists.
Its funny that people have been trying to predict what will become collectible for years, usually with poor results. I knew a guy who bought up lots of 50s and early 60s Imperials, convinced that they would be worth much more money than Chrysler 300s. He was wrong. In the 70s, I remember reading that Toronados and Avantis and Lincoln 4 door convertibles would be hugely collectible. They can be worth some money and all, but nobody saw the muscle car mania coming until it was starting to gather momentum. Who knows – maybe Civics will become the new thing.
Yes that is the key to cars fetching high prices later it is what boys lusted over when they were teens that when they are in their late 40’s to 60″ are then willing to pay a premium for to make their inner teen’s fantasy a reality.
Over on the tractor forum I haunt, we frequently get the question, “I inherited a Ford 8N – how much is it worth?”
The only correct answer to that (and this) question is, “However much someone is willing to pay for it.”
A standard saying here is “it’s worth whatever a fool is willing to pay for it”. Regardless the item, so it can be a painting, old car or a Ford 8N.
I shot a 53 Fergy for the cohort that is still being driven by the original operator his father bought it new he had just had it was being taken home from the paint shop when the pics were taken. It is like new.
Nice. The Henry-Harry story is on my to-do list…
This was shot at a friends place who owns a running 47 Fergy with Standard engine though it has the Continental engine gearbox Harry used briefly a very old Fergy 4th oldest in NZ.
Please do a Jensen FF side note
Well if you live within a 100 miles of the Mexican border your insurance on your Honda goes through the roof unless you have robust anti-theft system so that right there speaks of the value of these cars. I think the Antique Automobile Club of America has a 25 model year rule so this Honda is officially an antique.
Back in the 1990s my parents owned a 1970 Dodge Dart (Swinger?) that started off cherry other than the baked off paint on the roof exposing primer and a rather rusty passenger side fender. Though by 2000 it was not cherry. This vehicle was officially antique even according to NYSDMV rules, but it was totaled twice by the insurance company in a heart beat. The first time a box truck backed into the trunk lid and left a wee dent and the second time another box truck backed in the nose crinkling the hood a wee bit.
The value of something old is all a matter of perception and collective opinions. While there are several vehicles that society as a whole deem valuable and worth a lot of money there are many vehicles that are only worth something to their loyal fan base of followers.
The fact that insurance for Hondas is high does not speak to the value of these cars it speaks to the demand for the over priced parts and that they are easy to steal.
Serious question, did it even cost $11k new? I know the base models certainly didn’t but it’s hard to find original MSRP info online for anything pre-1990s. I have no idea how much of a premium the Si model commanded back then.
It stickered for $7999. The base Civic coupe was $5499; the DX was $6699.
Of course, it was practically impossible to get a Honda for MSRP in 1985, probably more so for the Si.
I paid $8200 for my Civic 4-door sedan brand new in ’84. An especially avaricious dealer might have gotten $8500 or even $9000 for a red ’85 Si.
I’d happily pay this *if* I were a Honda Fanboi ~ for the Dollars and condition it’d be foolish not to if you like these and wanted it as a daily driver .
I’m not sure why I’d have to think before taking it out , I don’t for my regular DD’s all being at least 30 years old and high mileage , I remember these Hondas to be amazingly reliable and fun to drive when new .
-Nate
That Honda looks like it’s brand new. The fit of the hood makes me wonder if it’s been in a wreck, however. If it’s as presented, I would go 5k. If the owner turned down 11k, why? I can’t believe anybody would pay that for this car, much less have it turned down. If I got it for $5k I would take care of it but use it for a daily driver.
If the owner turned down 11k, why?
“Honey, I tried to sell it, but I guess nobody else wants one. It doesn’t take up *that* much space,,,and it’s not like I don’t drive it every weekend…”
Nope nope nope. I bought a cherry 1987 CRX Si back in ’95 and it was, by far, the worst car I’ve ever owned. Not very sporty, liked to break (a lot), drove like I was sitting on the road, liked to break a lot, and didn’t return impressive fuel mileage.
Maybe it was because people talked it up so much, but I hated that car.
You must have had a lemon or something @ben. My dad had an 85 Civic that ran for 200k miles without a thing going wrong on it, my “86 Civic Si was just as stout and my best friend had an 87 CRX Si that simply wouldn’t break no matter how much teenage abuse we gave it… nightly street racing, we didn’t even know what maintenance was. And all of them got amazing gas mileage, easy mid-high 30s.
That’s the only thing I can figure, everyone else thinks they are the second coming – but mine was terrible. It was in overall really great physical/cosmetic shape, and had relatively low (~90k) miles when I got it.. but the thing was just a lemon. Couldn’t stand that car and was so happy to see it go I let my parents sell it for me and didn’t care how much came out of it.
Haggerty and NADA are good for classic cars where there are sufficient transactions, e.g. Porsche 911s. Not so good for low volume cars like a mint Civic so here’s what I do…
Start checking for the car daily in Craigslist ads. Watch for new ones that come up. Eventually you will see a nice car that sells very quickly at the (we assume) asking price. That’s a good comp, as a minimum price. A car that lingers isn’t good because there is usually something wrong with it or the owner was in no hurry to sell.
The pricing on fan sites is almost always over-priced. Ebay for me is a good place to advertise your car, not sell it. Within a day everyone looking for that car will have seen the ad.
In general cars that were popular with older folks who would buy them as a last car are in over-supply and a great value as others have pointed out. 560SLs are a good example.
NADA says $6,900 for a #1 condition 1990 Civic Si, a bit higher for a gen 4 Si. $6,900 sounds low to me and I suspect insufficient transactions. Lots of Sis out there but how many #1 cars?
You’d never of thought Volkswagen Beetles and Buses would bring so much money now either.
Touché.
I wonder if maybe the seller priced it that high to avoid anyone with Fast and Furious ambitions to get to it.
11k is pretty high but it looks practically new and beats most new cars in that price range and category (sub-20k) in terms of longevity, gas mileage, depreciation and repairs once the warranty is up on whatever car is new. Insurance will probably be low too, provided it’s not at a high risk area like the one mentioned in the comments.
I’d rather have this than a Versa, Corolla, Accent or new Civic.
(And yes, safety blah blah blah…but on the other points, I think it’s a nice alternative.)
This one is too nice to be a daily though lol
I didn’t know Grand Nationals and such were in the 11k range.
So are GNXs the ones in the 30k? I could have sworn all of them ballooned that high…
I think you have a point about the owner wanting to keep it out of the hands of the fart can crowd.
After writing my earlier comment about the Japanese stigma within the collector car hobby, I’m now curious as to what a US market ’86 GTI in similar unmodified condition might be worth. It would be interesting to see what if any difference there is.
Saab 900 Turbo?
I say sure, why not? If that’s what you’re interested in and you are going to enjoy it than $11k isn’t too far off the DougD rule of thumb that “anything you can enjoy for $10k is a good thing”.
Nothing new under the sun here, Model T Fords were worthless in the 1940’s, became collectible in the 1960’s and have slid into irrelevance since. Same thing will happen to 911’s Hemi Cudas and Civic Si’s. Time and demographics…..
Precisely. Cars have a limited selling life due to generational demographics. Someone might think this Civic is just like the one they had and might pay 11K. Personally I can’t see it for a common Civic. Whatever. Anyway what happens a decade later when the buyer wants to sell the car and expects it to have increased in value. His problem will be the same problem I will encounter, and that is there are few buyers for our particular cars, with mine from the 60’s.
If you can afford it and want it, it’s worth whatever you’re willing to pay for it. I can’t afford it and don’t collect those cars, so to me it’s worth $2-$3K as a daily driver.
This car is not a collectible because Honda is still in business. It still makes small cars. It still makes sporty cars. It still makes good cars. It might be a good old car, but anyone with a good old car can tell you that being a good old car isn’t enough.
If you want a small sporty Honda – there are literally a million on the road, and a million being made every year. This car is not special. It is not a collectable.
SO – what is a collectible car?
The car has to represent the AN HISTORICAL ERA.
Muscle cars?
Yeah – they represent an era of affordable AMERICAN SPEED.
Lincoln Continentals?
Yeah – they represent an era of elegant AMERICAN LUXURY.
Collectibles are about capturing a historical era within an automobile that is a good car, a good era and one that will not return.
Japanese cars aren’t there yet. Some – Mazda rotary engine cars, Nissan Z cars, Toyota Supras, even the early tinny tiny pick up trucks can become collectibles. I can see a collectible market for a landscape-painted Hi-Lux, B2000, or Datsun truck popular in the early 1970s. I can see a collectible market for a few other Japanese cars.
But being a good old car – is not enough. Ask any Valiant or Falcon owner if their car is as collectable as a temperamental Cuda or Mustang and they’ll probably tell you that they wished they were.
Is this car worth $11,000?
No. I’m embarrassed for you to even ask for that amount.
It will have to be the very last one available in North America today, for that kind of money.
So old Mustangs, Camaros, 911s and a whole host of cars that bring big money aren’t collectable since their mfgs are still in business?
As I said above what makes an old car collectable/valuable is that a fair number of teenage boys lusted for them when they were new or a few years old.
I don’t know about that, There’s still a collector market for prewar cars and how many of their current buyers were even born when they were new? In my own case my lust towards the Muscle Cars predates my birth by 20 years as well. Nostalgia is a factor of course but I’d argue that it plays more of a role in padding up peak values(like $10,000,000 Cudas) rather than long term desirability, the latter can transcend generations.
I think VanillaDude makes a good point but not for the reasons he noted. Muscle car era cars representing SPEED isn’t really true now that your average midsize sedan is faster than ever. I don’t think it’s so much what they represent so much as what they are – cars simply aren’t built that way anymore, and whether or not they’re the fastest things on the streets today or can corner worth a damn is irrelevant, they FEEL different, the LOOK different, they SOUND different and they even SMELL different.
Anyone who has started their driving life in cars made since the 80s will instantly note everything that’s different with something made in the early 70s. There’s been a lot that has changed in cars in the last 25 years but for the most part it’s mostly just been technology you only notice when you press the pedal or fill up at the pump. Otherwise cars have predominantly been FWD, transverse engined 4-6cyl cars with bumper covers and plasticy interiors — this hasn’t changed at all and the featured Civic is no exception, and that’s where I agree with the notion that if you can still buy a car like it, it’s not destined to be that special. Not until nothing like it can be obtained anymore that is. Until then a car like a mint condition 1986 Civic is merely fodder for car nerds like ourselves, and we’re cheapskates lol.
Well one of the reasons that muscle cars are so hot is that for those of us that were in our teen years in the Malaise era there weren’t many new cars worthy of our lust.
As far as the prewar cars go much of their value is driven by museums as the generation that drove their value up dies off. Or speculators that believe that since their values have risen in the past that they will continue to rise at the same or a higher rate.
However I do agree with you that some of it is driven by the fact that cars of a certain age and older are intrinsically different that modern cars. However they still need to have been lust worthy when new for them to attain significant value. That is why rarity is not what drives astronomical values.
No argument that the values won’t remain peaked forever, I think even the mighty Hemi Cuda Convertible juggernaut will eventually come down to more palatable levels as time goes on, but I also think that no matter how severe the drop is they’ll retain an inflated value well over the original cost of the car adjusted for inflation. Old stuff is intrinsically interesting to people.
I agree that for a car to become a juggernaut it needs to have a lustworthy push to attain it, what I disagree with is the notion that it can only come from first hand nostalgia. There were many external forces that made certain cars popular even then, including media/tv exposure. That same exposure is literally a click away these days, exposing every impressionable young car enthusiast to a Smörgåsbord of TV, movies, games and pictures ect. featuring all these cars. You don’t think they’ll lust over those childhood dreams into adulthood too?
I think there’s still a huge stigma surrounding Japanese cars within the collector car hobby. Exclude the likes of the B-J and Mecom auctions or shows like Bloomington Gold and think about the real grassroots heart and soul of the old car world – the traditional all-makes Midwestern small town weekend car show. What few Japanese cars you see (if any bother to show up at all) are often tucked away in some corner along with the gothed-out hearses.
It’s not completely due to xenophobia. At the shows around here, vintage VWs and British sports cars of all sorts are right there in the midst of all the ratrods and over-restored ’60s muscle and attract plenty of attention. But if you’re like the poor guy who brought a really nice unmodified ’89 CRX Si to one of our local shows last year, you might as well be sitting at the “geek table” in a junior high cafeteria. I was one of the few people who actually stopped to look at the car and talk to the owner. I’m not even a big Honda fan, but that car was too nice to pass by.
See, I think that stigma is very much a generational thing, a regional thing, and to some extent a white thing.
For the white Boomers who still drive the auction scene, sure. For Gen X, maybe in some parts of the country, but there are also a lot of people in my age range for whom the objects of teenage automotive lust were cars like the NSX and the FD RX-7. There’s also a sizable JDM contingent, a lot of whom are not white and have a very different set of prejudices than white Boomers. In L.A., for instance, there’s a number of large Mazda rotary clubs that are mostly if not entirely Latino.
Also, younger people (Gen Y and Millennials) have their own perspective on what constitutes cool cars based on movies, music videos, and video games. If those people ever have the money to put into collector cars, it’s likely to be an eclectic mix of cars from different eras, mostly before they were born. I have a friend, for instance, who wants an early ’50s pickup and a Nissan Figaro.
It’s definitely regional, as evidenced by the vintage Japanese car shows that take place in SoCal several times a year. They get old JDM stuff you didn’t know existed in Japan, let alone that there was an example in North America.
With the exception of VW’s air-cooled heyday, imports were slow to catch on among average working-class folks here in the St. Louis area. The Big 3 had assembly plants here for decades (GM Wentzville is the only one left) and even without the auto industry there’s a strong union tradition. It really wasn’t until the mid ’90s that you started seeing the huge numbers of Japanese cars on the road that you saw in a place like Houston, or especially on the east and west coasts.
If Betsy got T-Boned at an intersection, this is the sort of car I’d go looking for; an old, well-cared-for economy car. I think I’d go as high as $6k for this one, with such low miles, but $11K? they’d have to come down.
If they still rolled these brand new off the line as designed in 1986 my wife would gladly pay $11K for it.
I think the most interesting thing is that it still looks so sharp. It’s not only that it looks brand new, it looks sharp doing it. It still looks fresh. What cars will look fresh in thirty years? Not the Benzes of the last twenty years. It oozes a quality I’ve only seen in ancient Mercedeses, like the W123. Yes, this is obviously a cheaper car than a Mercedes, but it still has a presence seldom seen. Not then, not now. It has a certain confidence, symbolizing everything the Japanese did right in the 80’s. It’s sharp and fresh, and though it is a lightweight, it just oozes fat content. It doesn’t get any fatter than this. This is it.
Around 10 grand for that car would be okay given that the tiny but mighty Honda Civic is not only a potent little performer, but it’s also built to last. This one looks to be in near-mint condition, it is old enough to be an antique and has relatively low mileage for those cars. Given the $$-vertical line upward for antique cars of all kinds in recent years, it might be worth the investment. It would no doubt get a lot of attention at car shows and win an award or two. My fully restored number one condition Ford Mavericks sure are successful in car shows, so don’t knock it if it’s not one of the so-called “collectables.”
not my cup of tea, but 11k is not a lot to pay for a mint old car. have you looked at the prices of five year old econoboxes with more miles than that on them lately?
I don’t see this as being over priced. It is a almost new vintage Honda Si with all original parts. It was the first year that the SI was offered in the USA in the Civic guise( the Si was first offered in the CRX in 1985)
So it is a unrestored first year car with low miles which looks like new. This has historical value and defines an era that Japanese cars ruled the roads in the USA due to being cheap and very reliable.
Before you folks scoff at somebody that would pay $11,000 for this Si, remember that people will pay double for a good condition VW Beetle and there was nothing really special about those except for low price. After all those looked dated in the late 40’s when the first ones arrived in the USA. They were also slow, not really reliable and consumed more gas then they should be based upon engine size and they were noisy and yet people fork over money hand over fist for these things.
I have driven one of these first gen Si Civics and they were very nimble and quick for the size. Unlike the Beetle which could not get out of the way.
Putting a value on a special interest car can be tricky. This Civic was something of an icon to Honda folks (I get why) and it appears to be an exceptionally clean example. That’s all worth something, Working against this car is the fact that many were produced, however you have to also factor in how many survived. In this case, not many! This generation of Civic faded from the scene rather rapidly, as they certainly caught the fancy of many a young and stupid successive owner. So, you have an iconic car of which few examples this clean remain. $11,000? I don’t see it that high at present, but I can see the day when they do trade for that much.
I’d pay $4,888 for the Mazda just for the red seats.
I’d offer $9500 if I had the space for it.
I had one of these, my second car. It was a great car, but I’d be hard pressed to spend $11k on it. It looks really nice, but 57k is still a decent amount of miles. Maybe if it had ultra low miles… under 10k, then you could make a case for $11k asking price. But for this car, with these miles, I could see $7k. Then I would drive it, it would make a really great daily driver at that price.
No way 11k….I paid $4500 for a 1981 Scirocco S unmolested, no rust, in very good shape
In a country as large as the US, there will probably be someone who’ll think it’s worth that much. As Hondas go, it’s a good one. its condition is amazing. I always wanted one of these back then. Would I pay that much? No.
Not $11000 now, had one years ago and it was a decent little car. Come back in 5-10 years and if it is still in similar condition it would be the right price. I’d pay $8000 max ATM, it’s not scarce or interesting enough yet to pay more.
You’re right Glen. For that price you’d want to be putting it on blocks. If you wanted a daily driver you could find cheaper. However, I think anything small and desirous is going to win in the long term collector stakes.
I’d say this one is probably worth close to the asking price. Most cars that have buy it now prices on ebay exhibit unbridled optimism. It was one of the better cars money could buy in 1986, yet it was accessibly priced. Sure there were thousands produced, but bargain hunting boy racers have been tracking them all down for decades. They were so useful and dependable that they were mostly used up. These cars didn’t sit in garages waiting for NLA parts to be found. They didn’t hibernate while their owners tried to steel themselves to make one more repair. They were driven into the ground, typically over 250,000 miles. To find one that escaped the ravages of rust, collisions, and tuners is rare. This one being a low mileage beauty makes it easy to imagine spending the dough on for me. 1986 was a great time to be living in this country. This car was one of the great reasons to be optimistic. Sure, the country didn’t keep heading in the right direction, making it all the more nostalgic to pick up a keepsake from that time. Does anyone really need the approval of people mooning over bankrupt automakers to enjoy their own old cars? Sounds pathetic.
$500
Like several of you said, anything is worth what someone will pay for it if they really want it. From where I sit, this seller is completely delusional. I know, I know….Honda does make a good product for what it is, and they have an army of fan boys yadda yadda.
However, lets look at this logically as possible:
Muscle cars skyrocketed in value in the mid 80s-early 90s because suddenly everyone realized that they offered style, performance and a driving experience that simply wasn’t being offered at that time. Muscle cars and even their lesser versions strike a chord with enthusiasts since theyre just so damn visceral. Hell, we’ve seen the 3 major pony cars resurrected with the original themes at least imitated…that definitely says something.
Hotrods and the cars theyre derived from are much the same thing, if packaged differently.
Antiques pre-dating the 60s have always been a ‘thing’ also, provided that they offer something special.
The biggest obstacle to a Honda like this ever being ‘collectible’ is that the basic ‘hot hatch’ and sport compact concepts have never gone away. This car has been surpassed in style and performance by newer models several times. The last 2 generations of Civics have been duds with the tuner crowd, but the mid 90s coupe based Si was clearly a hit, and if ANY Honda will be collectible, that and the S2000 will be it.
Japanese automakers aren’t known for building cars that inspire passion or nostalgia. Their reputation is built upon reliable well made cars that get you where you want to go with little fuss or drama. Supras, Z cars and the like are the exceptions. Those are absolutely worthy of collectible status, because they are in fact ‘special’ cars.
This may well be the cleanest ’86 Civic Si on the planet, and the most stock. But for $11K? I don’t think so!
Its not stock, but this is a MUCH more desireable car:
http://portland.craigslist.org/clk/cto/4577535209.html
An absolute STEAL by these standards, and a much better investment:
http://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/cto/4582762143.html
I would call this the money shot of reasons why this Civic is grossly overpriced:
http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/ctd/4566019899.html
I sort of disagree. Spikes in prices occur when nostalgia meets a fattened wallet. 60s and 70s had the most recent spike because the people who owned or desired one back in the day got to the point where they were successful enough (as a generation) to finally buy one as a weekender. That is broad strokes; a hemi Cuda or genuine Yenko will always have a higher value now, but the bread and butter from this gen seem to be moderating.
Try selling a bread and butter pre40s vehicle and you’ll find the market is thinning as those who valued or desired them are passing on.
This is one of the reasons I really value the perspective of Perry and the younger writers on CC. Most cars from the 80s onwards don’t really interest me, but they do interest those younger than me who are getting to the same wallet-state as my gen who pushed 60s and 70s prices up. And I want to keep up with that. There are some obvious future collectables; R32, 33, 34 GTRs, early unmolested WRXs and then things I’ve never been aware of such as the Si version of a Honda (possibly)
Like I said, this is broad strokes. There are many levels to collectability, but the market seems to move in generational waves.
I think you are on the right track with the ‘waves of nostalgia” concept, but I have my doubts that it will apply to the cars of the 80s and 90s. I was 16 in 1986, I lusted after these cars, and owned one when I was a little older. I loved it, still do love it. But no way I am going to drop that much coin on one to “recapture my youth”. I just don’t think the draw of nostalgia is that great for cars that do not hold broad appeal.
60s and 70s muscle cars have broad appeal, which is why they hold value to so many people. Guys aren’t out there dropping $20-50k on a classic muscle car simply because they wanted one when they were young. There is a fairly reasonable expectation that if they buy one, it will still be worth at least close to what they paid for it in 10 yrs, 20 yrs. That is why there is a huge industry based around restoring these classics. Any idea where you would find parts to “restore” an 80s Honda? The Honda dealer… perhaps eBay. No one is making repro parts, and it isn’t remotely cost effective to do it anyway. Almost all of them are beat to heck, beyond saving. The ONLY reason cars of this caliber are worth more than $3k is because its impossible to find them in decent shape. Which brings me to my next point. That generation of cars simply don’t age well. Cars of the 60s and 70s were fairly simple and also pretty solid. The 80s is when they made them cheaper and also much more complicated.
I agree. It was broad strokes. I don’t want to turn this into a car-person vs average punter dialectic, but the bottom end of this market is filled with ‘average punters’ who want a Mustang coz its cool. Before them, the same type wanted a 57 Chev for the same reason. These people aren’t necessarily CC types, but they make up a lot of the market.
I was talking to a Ferrari owner who was telling me of a wealthy guy in Hong Kong who was buying any decent old Ferrari he could. Why? Because when he drives up to his exclusive club in HK, he parks amongst all the late model Ferraris and his is the car everyone gathers around and talks about. So there is an emerging market in Asia that will progress from its ‘conformist’ capitalist beginnings to value older cars for their distinctiveness. Why do I bring this up here? Because I think it going to be the single biggest influence on the classic car market in coming years. The critical mass in China, for example, is huge. And not all of them will be able to buy an old Ferrari, hence the spike in Porsches. And there’s only a limited number of old Porsches so the trickle-down effect will continue. And that will be a massive distortion of the market as we know it.
Getting back to 80s cars, I can’t help but agree. Poorer materials, overly complex systems and generic square box styling are some of the reasons I don’t really get excited about them. But when I read CC and see the enthusiasm for such cars, I must acknowledge I’m perhaps in the minority.
I do believe, very strongly, that smaller cars such as the CRX will become future classics. I think rising petrol prices will put the larger engined vehicles off the road in twenty years time. (Sorry Carmine, I said I wouldn’t mention it again)
You touched on something important Don. Folks like talking about the demand side and how the generational effect causes prices to jump. But it’s the supply side that matters most because if you are a middle-aged car guy, generally speaking, you will find desirable the same old cars that someone 20 years your junior or senior would. I didn’t say 30 years, 20 years.
I don’t see any difference between the tastes of Gen X and Boomers for old cars. The generations come into play on cars like the 55-57 Tbirds where a huge supply is coming to market as their first collectors die off. Total buyer’s market. This is the same reason it’s easy to find 80s Fleetwood Broughams and 560SLs except those were bought new, not as collectors’ cars like the Tbirds.
Supply affects price the most, in macro ways like the Tbird example and micro ways like the emerging affluence in China. For the last few years the strong Euro has caused a very large number of classic cars in America to go to Europe. How else would you explain the relatively sudden run up in price for something like a Mercedes 190SL?
When a car becomes sought after by young folks for customizing, like a RWD Cadillac, 80s-90s Civic or 240SX, units are culled and prices jump. I think that is why you see plenty of nice Datsun roadsters for sale and seemingly fewer Civic Sis.
When cash for clunkers came supply dropped and prices went up across the board.
I don’t see how anyone can say 80s-90s cars are not sought after. Ever try finding a cherry 91-94 Sentra SE-R? None around. How about a low-mile ’89 325is coupe? Sure if you have $20k.
The 80s-90s models benefit from a completely modern driving experience (sufficient power, AC, overdrive) and good fuel economy. They are also relatively simple cars with good rustproofing that won’t break the bank in maintenance and repairs.
I don’t see the 00s working that way. In smog states codes will have to be dealt with, they can’t be ignored. There are expensive components that have to be replaced as a unit (like an air spring) you can’t just swap out a small part.
If anything 80s-90s cars are going to be more sought after than 60s-70s (and newer cars down the road) because Boomers are still young enough to be a factor, the cars are affordable to own and nice to drive. Those were the last decades for strong brand character too.
Another point on supply – some cars tend to sit quietly for years in the garages of elderly owners. Old Lincolns and Cadillacs and Buicks that are really nice are relatively common. Old muscle cars or station wagons either had the bark beaten off them by young delinquents or got worked to death by tradesmen. A car like this Civic in this state of preservation is fairly rare, at least from my experience.
Top quality can bring top dollar. Everyone thinks his old car is valuable, but only a few are of genuine top quality. A lesser model or a car in lesser condition would make this price pure fantasy. If this car is really as nice as it looks, I could see someone arttracted to this car at 5 figures. Maybe not yet (and certainly not me) but soon.
I would add that a factor that can make comparatively mundane old cars more valuable is media exposure. For a lot of younger people, even enthusiasts, even something like an early Mustang or first-gen Camaro is a car from before they were born and with which they don’t necessarily have any first-hand experience the way the current crop of Boomer collectors do with the muscle cars.
In that sense, people are more likely to be familiar with things like Tri-Five Chevrolets, early Mustangs, or air-cooled Volkswagens. They show up all the time in movies, in TV shows, on postage stamps. You don’t have to read car magazines to have a sense of what those cars look like or what they’re supposed to be.
Even some things that don’t have the same “icon of an era” vibe can catch on that way. There are a bunch of anime fans and weeabos who know little about cars in general, but are familiar with the AE86 Corolla and Sprinter because of Initial D.
@calibrick – the problem is, none of those cars you mentioned are expensive. A big part of the appeal is that you can get them cheap. Where do you live that an regular E30 is $20k? Only the M3 version; you can buy mint 325’s for $5-7k easy, there is a place in Orlando that restores them to mint condition and I have seen 2 or 2 for sale from them for $11-12k, thats all the market will bear and even that takes a really special buyer. You can’t find a mint SE-R because they all got trashed or fell apart. And the ones that are nice are still not worth much because they simply aren’t that great. Young people customize old Caddys because they are affordable, if they were expensive they would get Chryslers or Fords instead. 80s-90s American muscle cars are a bargain right now, this is about as low as they will go and they are going to go up in value somewhat, but how far? It isn’t like they just go to the stratosphere because they get older. Even the really valuable 60s-70s classic muscle cars hit a peak and stopped. How high will a mint condition 1988 IROC-Z go? Or a 1993 5.0? No one is buying them now at $10-12k, some guys asking in the teens are just dreaming. The plastic interiors are falling apart, the mechanicals are not all that reliable, the performance isn’t really special. For the mid-high teens you can get your hands on a pretty decent 70s muscle car, once you get in the $20s you can find tons of more desirable muscle cars. And those are cars with a known following. Where do you see an 85 Civic heading in value in 10 yrs, 20 yrs?
My bet is right about the same place you can find a ’75 or 65 Corolla today. Lots of people will talk about what a cool car it was, but none of them are going to pony up big money to drive one.
Now I agree that the truly special performance cars will hold some value. The Acura NSX is already insanely pricey, but it was insanely pricey new too. Supras are even worse. The R32/3/4 is going to be a very hot ticket once they hit 25 yrs old. And there is gonna be a ton of JDM and Euro market cars at that same 25yo point that people here will want. I just don’t think bread and butter cars like the Civic Si, any Mitsubishi or Subaru, Toyotas, etc, are all of a sudden going to skyrocket up like Hemi Cudas or even fastback Mustangs did.
“Where do you live that a regular E30 is $20k?”
Wasn’t talking about a regular E30, was talking about one in the same condition and mileage as the Civic Si. A quick look on CL and EB show none like that. I don’t remember seeing but one, with an asking price in the high teens. Ditto on finding a nice Volvo 740T Wagon. Tons for sale in the $1-3k range but those are all beaters, modded or salvaged.
My pricing is a bit premium because I only look at Cali cars, never anything driven where they use salt on roads. Still, I challenge you to post an ad from anywhere for a low mile, mint 325is manual for $7k.
The few low mileage cars out there are in the hands of loving owners, as someone said, and they are not coming to market. Lots of low mile Ferraris and 911s for sale because many were used as weekend pleasure cars and status symbols.
“Restored” to me is never as valuable as original, especially on a car as relatively new as the 325. I would not want to buy a car that was so used up or neglected it had to be restored after 20 years. Going by the premiums that low mileage original cars carry over restored for other models your $12k restored 325 would be easily $20k for an original in same condition as the Civic.
M3s are a whole different matter — #2 cars are $40k, #1 almost $70k. The run up on those have helped 325is, for sure.
SE-Rs were exceptional to drive. Super neutral handling, light overall feel, a brilliant shifter with perfect ratios, powerful brakes and a very large displacement engine for the body size. The standard viscous limited slip made all the difference in the world for putting the power down. A Japanese hot rod of the highest order.
The SE-R was an instant classic and I am sure a few were squirreled away by those in the know. Why would anyone want to sell a car like that?
So basically you are speculating, choosing only California (which is king of the dreamer car prices BTW), and going by the theory that since there are very few for sale, that when they are on sale they are worth a lot of money. And then you are throwing out numbers based on “condition” ratings for auctions, which is entirely different market altogether.
I cannot produce an ad for you at will because unlike classic Camaros, there simply are not many for sale. Because very few people bothered to keep them in nice shape. As you said, most of them are beaters. But I spent a few months last year helping my brother look for an E30, and I found several. Here in Florida we do not have salt on the roads either, and I come across a mint condition E30 every once in a while. The value hasn’t been driven up by the uptick in M3 pricing, because it simply isn’t an M3, and essentially no one wants them except for the few fanatics who already have one. Just because you can find someone ASKING high teens doesn’t mean they can find someone to actually pay high teens for it. I looked at one a few weeks ago, was an actual 325is with a stick, excellent condition, 1987 I think, guy was asking $7500. It sold of course, that’s a good price. My mechanic has a customer with a 318 hes been trying to unload forever for $5500, its essentially perfect (he did get it repainted, but its an excellent job). No one wants to pay $5500 for it. We get a ton of convertible E30s down here that people have kept in their winter homes, excellent condtion, low miles, never over $10k., most for less. I am pretty sure the auction value for a nice E30 M3 is around $25k, who in their right mind would pay $20k for a non-M3 E30?
And I am not arguing that the SE-R wasn’t a wonderful little car, I had a friend with one, it was a great driver for sure. And when it was new it was a terrific bargain. But that generation of Nissan Sentra just really isn’t a very durable car. The engine, sure, an SR20 is solid. But the rest of the car just falls apart. Its not a BAD car, just finding someone who wants to pay big dollars for one is just very very difficult. There is a local guy who has a MINT condition 88 CRX Si for sale, much like our subject car, essentially showroom perfect. He was asking $9500, hes slowing been dropping the price, now down to $6400, and still no takers. If I could get my damn GTI sold I might offer him $5k for it, but any more than that is just too much. The market just isn’t there, if you buy something like that you need to be sure you will keep it forever.
My M3 values for #1 and #2 cars come straight from Hagerty, a source I find highly reliable for cars with sufficient sample size like an M3.
http://www.hagerty.com/valuationtools/hvt/vehiclesearch/Report?vc=849841
Here is a completed “sold” listing on Ebay for a 1988 325is with the less desirable early bumpers, two updates on condition and an unconvincing story about the actual mileage. Car is from TX where they don’t do smog checks. Because of that, and the lack of records from the prior owner, there is no way to confirm that the 17k odo reading when the guy bought the car is accurate.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1988-BMW-325IS-E30-/171340515118?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&forcerrptr=true&hash=item27e4b0c72e&item=171340515118&nma=true&si=XHSbtzKgkuH1hDhhdHO2lO%252BZoo4%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
How much more would a late bumper, California 325is with verifiable mileage cost? A lot more.
I’m glad you appreciate the SE-R. In addition to the great performance the car had a killer seating position, fantastic Recaro-style seats and 3-box styling that came off better developed than that on the E30.
I’m not an expert on Japanese cars, but until these vehicles actually start regularly selling at these higher prices, I’m putting it up to owner optimism.
Over on Hemmings you can find some $12K ’86 Eldorados or $17K 3.8L G-body Cutlasses.That does not mean this price is what they are worth though.
Good point. Watch the classic cars for sale on Craigslist or eBay, the popular ones… Mustangs, Camaros, Cudas, etc. People will be asking over $20k, many are priced $30-40k+. And those same cars sit there for sale perpetually, or get re-listed over and over. I have been watching some cars for months, they do not sell. But once you see one in the low-mid teens, bam, its gone within a couple weeks. Thats the sweet spot where people can justify the cost of nostalgia with the safety net of knowing they can get rid of it once the mid-life crisis passes. I think the fantasy pricing time has passed for all but the obviously valuable models. The same rule will apply to these 80s-90s cars, imports or domestics. Some guys will be asking crazy prices, but they probably won’t get it, unless dumb luck matches them up with that dream buyer, the one with more money than he knows what to do with. The ones that sell will be in that sweet spot, around $7-8k, which is about the limit that the average guy can justify throwing money away on a toy without his wife kicking him to the curb.
Speaking of Hemmings I find the prices over there more out of whack than on the fan sites. Here, for example, is a 1993 Mercedes 190E 2.3 for $17,500. This is not a Cosworth, just an 8-valve 4-cylinder with 42,000 miles.
http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/carsforsale/mercedes_benz/190e/1660175.html
When I was trying to make it as a car salesman in the early Eighties, a kid fresh out of college in a battered TR3, I got the same story at every Honda dealership I hit up for work. “All our salesmen have been sales managers at other dealers; some of them have owned their own car stores.” That goes a ways to explain how Honda prices were kept high. By the way, figuring in inflation, $8000 in ’86 is worth about 17,000 today.
I entirely disagree with people who don’t think Japanese cars or cars from the ’80s and ’90s will never really be collectible. I echo Paul’s comment above that that is exactly what the enthusiast pundits said about ’50s and ’60s iron in the mid-to-late-’60s — almost verbatim, in fact.
That said, I think this is still too much too soon. For a really pristine low-mileage example, I could see $7,500 or even $8,000, but $11K is over-ambitious.
One consideration is that at 57,000 miles, I would be very curious as to whether it’s had the timing belt changed. If not, I’d want to do the timing belt and water pump preemptively. (I don’t recall what the manual lists on these for the timing belt, but I’ve had Hondas of this vintage and the conventional wisdom is that doing it at between 60K and 70K is the safer bet.) I also don’t know that I’d want to go back to manual valve adjustments, which are a PITA; I’ve been spoiled by hydraulic lash adjusters.
One of the things that would make a car like this potentially appealing is that it’s still simple enough to be a known quantity. Yes, you could get into an older, fancier European for around $10K, but it can easily cost you that again.
For the A-block, at least, it was 90k miles. I think that was a perfectly reasonable mileage, but obviously this car’s belt-if original-is too old to trust for much longer, if at all.
Two of my previous mechanics, both factory-trained Honda specialists, strongly advocated a 60,000-mile replacement cycle for Hondas of that vintage. Since both would routinely talk customers out of unnecessary or premature repairs, even potentially lucrative ones (actual dialogue: “We could put another one in if you really want, but it’ll be making the exact same noise in a couple months — save your money”), I was inclined to take their word for it.
I wouldn’t pay $11K now, but in a few years, this car in this same condition might be worth it. I’m a baby boomer, came of age in the glorious peak-of-styling years of the 60s. But I have to say this generation of Honda Civic bowled me over when I saw the first one in the fall of ’83 — only one of a handful of cars to do that to me — ever! It was revolutionary in so many ways, and having driven one (with a carb, not fuel-injected) was an absolute blast compared to most of what was being peddled as new at the time.
I say this as someone who grew up on GM iron and while I have long since migrated to Toyota and Nissan via VW and Volvo, I’ve yet to own a Honda.
$11K? Nah.
My wife and her sisters had a beater, ragged out 1983 Civic hatch that was passed around the family surviving the abuse of 3 girls learning to drive stick. BUT that doesn’t mean that any of those girls want to find a pristine example and own it for any amount of money.
Someone will collect them but they’re not any more collectible than any other car. Is a mid 70s Vega collectible, but not at the same level as a late 60s Camaro.
Random thoughts:
Vanilladude makes some good points that something special about a car is needed to make it collectible.
Ordinary cars can become special by circumstance. Examples: Low volume ’75 Dodge Monaco sedan in police trim thanks to a certain movie. High volume Model As because they are obtainable, parts are not too hard to find, and they were among the best of their time. Tri five Chevies for similar reasons.
A friend said if it is worth it to you, that is what it is worth.
A dollars and sense argument, if the cost of restoration exceeds buying a ready to go version, the ready to go is worthwhile at any price below restoration.
It helps if a car speaks to someone. 20 years ago a friend with two Model As said the guys that could relate to the cars were all dying, and prices were falling at that time.
Unobtanium tends to be valuable. Dusenbergs, V-12 Cadillacs, etc. Always rare and beautiful to boot. Rich guys bid them up, because, well, they can!
No time to read the comments, but my-oh-my those pillars are mighty thin! I can’t imagine how this thing (Civic) held up in collisions! And by can’t imagine, I mean…impending death! I’d spend a few more dollars for a 2012, thank you (free advice).
As a side note, the owner didn’t install their new front license plate to match the rear (illegal). No reflective strip on the front, instant pull-over. A bit of an anarchist (idiot) I assume.
My sister still has the ’85 Civic S 3-door (basically the Si but with the carb engine) that she bought back in 1995. On its 4th time around the odometer I think, although severe rust means it hasn’t been remotely roadworthy for a few years so lives in a paddock on their farm now. Still runs – refuses to die in fact. I remember driving it back in the 90s; it was fantastic! Spacious, zippy, very economical and such superb all-round visibility – back when Honda valued such attributes.
Bah, if I were still living in the States (and had a garage) I’d be very, very, very, very tempted to make a bid on that 1969 Mazda. Rationally, I guess it’s a good thing I’m not, but now I’m going to be checking eBay every few weeks.
These old Civics are making a comeback because of a trend towards old school Japanese cars like old Skylines and such. While I like the car, the price is insane to me. I’d take back my 8 valve ’89 GTI over this dish washer any day.
Car guys who are all “hemi Cuda” and “0-60” won’t get this car, but those who are about Autocross and handling should. $11k sounds high, but then try restoring a $3000 version.
autox guys still have better options to choose from for $11k, and the hardcore autocrossers rarely have or care to have mint examples in my experience.
Good point. Miatas seem to be one of the prime autocross cars here in the NorthWest. Seems like this Honda seller is just baiting the hook for someone who just ‘has to have’ this particular car. Don’t get me wrong, there are PLENTY of less loved Mopars that I would pay a bit more just to have. I just don’t get the appeal of this Honda…at least I cant see why a newer version for less money wouldn’t deliver more.
Pre 4th gen Civics have virtually disappeared around here, I’d buy this if it was maybe about half the price,