This venerable veteran of domestic wars jolted a semi-forgotten childhood memory: the next door neighbors in Towson had one just like it, bought new within months of us moving there in the fall of 1965. The thing that I most noted visually was that it wasn’t an Impala, it had the fender badge indicating a 283 V8, and it had wide (6″) wheels, which were quite obvious given the dog dish hubcaps it wore. 6″ wide wheels were a relatively new thing on low end cars like Chevys, and of course only standard on station wagons. And even then, ’66 might have been the first year for that.
But the following summer they invited me and my younger brother to go swimming with them, at their swim club. It was a typical sweltering humid Maryland summer day. I opened the rear window after I climber in. Mrs. Lynch asked me to close the window. Uh oh; another draft-O-phobic like my father?
posted at the Cohort by nifticus
A few blocks later as we pulled into Towsontown Boulevard, I suddenly felt a cold breeze from the front. Whoa? It’s air conditioning! Why didn’t our cars have that?
The ride out on the Beltway and I-84 I-83 to Hunt Valley was both curiously quiet and eminently comfortable. What a revelation. There’s no doubt in my mind that some very ugly scenes with my father on family trips and vacations might well have never happened if air conditioning had been present. The great domestic tranquilizer.
Their wagon was Artesian Turquoise, while this darker shade appears to be Tropic Turquoise. Artesian Turquoise was a popular color for ’66 Chevys, as the neighbors down the street a couple of houses also bought one, an Impala 4-door sedan. It too had the fender emblem indicating a 283, but I was surprised to see dual exhausts.
One day this neighbor had its hood open, and the air cleaner badge said “220 HP Turbo Fire 283”. That reminded me that for some rather odd reason, Chevy brought back the four-barrel 283 for 1966—and only for 1966—on the big Chevys as an option above the 195 hp two barrel version. And it came standard with dual exhausts, as did the two 427s, but not the 275 hp 327 and the 325 hp 396. That seems a bit odd too.
But not nearly as odd as riding in air conditioned comfort.
AC in the 1960’s was a huge thing .
I wonder what year the imports began offering it .
-Nate
BMW AG (Germany) was unable to fathom the need for AC until the mid ’80’s. The U.S. dealers were installing crappy retrofit kits stateside up to that point.
Another vexing mystery for the Germans was the need for a cup holder in an automobile (!)
Some German commenters of the time actually made fun of Americans’ penchant for cup holders. Maybe they preferred a coffee cup in their crotch??
Or did they never, ever eat or drink while driving?
It’s interesting to note that many 1970’s & 1980’s Mercedes products also had weak or insufficient AC .
The W116, W123 & R/W107 series cars from 1979 ~ mid 1981 had a hybrid system sourced under license from Chrysler ~ it was the old “Air Temp II” HVAC system except with a GM DELCO A4 AC compressor .
Mercedes called it “Klima I” and you know it by the vertical row of five push buttons .
This system was loved by the Customers when it worked and hated by all Mechanics no matter what .
After I’d purchased my second old Mercedes W123 Diesel coupe I decided I wanted AC and spent some time and almost $800 learning the batshyte crazy daisy chain system that contained among other foolishness , the EVIL SERVO FROM HELL .
I due time I had it working As-New again and was especially pleased to discover that whilst the heater function only had three fan speeds, the AC function had _four_, very nice when in the South West Desert, I had 45* F chilled air out the dashboard vents and immediately sold the car at a dead loss, to a Customer who absolutely loved it .
I’ve never been to Europe but they tell me it never gets as hot there as it does in America,why ‘European cars have poor AC ‘ .
Dry heat or the muggy East Coast mess makes no difference ~ once you get old & fat you _NEED_ cool dry air in the car / truck at all times =:^ .
I remember some Japanese cheapo cars that had pretty cold AC in Summer .
As far as cup holders, I used to keep the hot coffee between my legs, even on the stick shift vehicles .
The *one*time* I put a hot cuppa coffee in my Ranger’s cup holder I spilled it in a corner so the coffee of course zoomed to the edge and leaked underneath, I had to remove the whole damned rubber mat yet again to clean it up, no more open containers in the cup holders .
-Nate
Nate, you’ve got me on the edge of my seat here, wondering which GM compressor that Daimler-Chrysler(!) system used: the A6 or the R4. As far as I know there wasn’t an A4. From a dependability-durability standpoint, I’d surely prefer the A6! The system you describe was probably the Auto-Temp II; AirTemp was the name of Chrysler’s refrigeration division.
Five vertical buttons, you say? H’mmm. Wonder if it used this 5-button vacuum/electric mode selector switch Chrysler made or bought about five zillion of in 1965 and used for several decades.
The A/C in my 164 was a POE (port of entry) system, i.e., sourced in America. It was made by Frigi-King, an outfit I think was in Texas. They were one of a few suppliers of systems like this, most of which followed a pretty set recipe: a York (aluminum) or Tecumseh (iron) 2-cylinder compressor sized and shaped about like a standard cinderblock, a 12″ × 18″ serpentine condenser, a thermostatic expansion valve, a small serpentine evaporator, and the whole works connected by copper tubing and hoses with flare fittings. Air ducts slung under the dash. Many, many imported vehicles got systems like this, and they just weren’t very good.
OOPS ! of course I meant the Delco R4 compressor, compact and worked pretty well as long as no leaks developed allowing moisture in or lubricant out .
No, they used their own P.B.U., sadly I have no images of in and am not allowed to attach anything here regardless .
Yes, Mercedes ‘Klima I’ was in fact ChryCo’s older Air Temp II system used under license .
Oddly the old tech books I used to learn the Mercedes system all called it ‘Air Temp’, now I have learned yet another new thing .
They still make the evil servo from _HELL_ in Mexico, both the original Bakelite body and aluminum versions , they’re quite popular with vintage MoPar and Mercedes enthusiasts .
A nasty fiddly persnickety system that requires fanatical initial adjustment of the servo from new (I have as of yet to receive a new or ‘rebuilt’ one in proper adjustment) and also fanatical maintenance of the cooling system proper because even *slightly* dirty coolant will jamb the servo’s hot water valve causing the Bakelite body to crack or in the aluminum versions, the tiny electric motor to stall out and overheat and fry the small brain box behind the glove box….
There is very good reason for all to hate this crappy system .
Of course, when it works its COMPLETE MAGIC but I digress….
Right here is why I love topic drift so much = it’s like FREE TECH SCHOOL and I always love learning .
-Nate
I find it curious that you considered the Mercedes-Benz AC systems had weak or insufficient AC.
We brought 1977 Mercedes-Benz 450 SEL to the US in 1982. It had the manual HVAC system (the ones with two large dials in the middle). We lived in Dallas where the summer temperature can hit 100° F. The air conditioning in our Mercedes worked very well and cooled the interior quickly. Perhaps the manual settings made the difference?
…they tell me it never gets as hot there as it does in America…
Apparently, they forgot about the southern Europe or had the most outdated thinking. Germany does have the heat waves a few times during the late spring and the summer every year. Some days, it reaches 30°C to 40°C (95°F to 105°F) in the large cities. Freiburg im Breisgau and Karlsruhe are the hottest cities in Germany due to the quirky geographical features.
After the 2003 severe and prolonged heat wave, Germans discovered how convenient and useful the AC is and equipped their vehicles with one ever since. While waiting for the bus or tram, I made the unscientific observations recently, noticing how many vehicles (built in the last twenty years) have the windows up during the hot days. It was something of 70%-80%.
Today, it’s more common to find the taxicabs, buses, trams, subway carriages, commuter trains, and like in Germany without AC. Same with the supermarkets, restaurants, offices, etc. Germans seem have been “Americanised” in the last twenty years.
@ Mr. Twist ;
You make a valid point ~ by the time I got a Mercedes it was twenty years old, I do recall riding in a new 6 cylinder Mercedes in..,1984 and the AC worked great .
This is why I’m keen to learn ~ as an old car Mechanic most of my career I rarely had access to AC equipped cars and none of my oldies ever had it .
I don’t know if the manual HVAC system is any better or is simply less likely to have broken…..
That’s the system in my ’82 240D and it works passably but I doubt very much anyone took the time to slowly charge it after the SANDEN andf PF condenser change ~ I asked and they said “we just connect the automatic machine and it vacuums the system then puts in the factory weight charge ~ when I mentioned that R134a uses less volume than R12 they simply shrugged .
-Nate
Well the only time I visited Europe was the summer of 1976 and it was hot. People fainting from heat stroke at Wimbledon when it was over 100 degrees. Obviously the Brits didn’t know how to dress cool. I know it is Wimbledon but need they be so formal? Fires across Germany. The Rhine so low you couldn’t take a cruise boat down it. I concentrated my first 6 weeks from Holland and north to Sweden and Norway where they were warm like Southern California while avoiding southern Europe till things looked better. No AC in hotels unless high upper end. So windows open and in Italy that meant mosquitos with you at night.
Huh?
Both the car I grew up with, a ’73 Bavaria, and its successor, a ’78 530i, had factory A/C, and in both cars it worked quite well thankyouverymuch!
In the Bavaria though, my Dad would only turn it on during freeway driving due to the car’s propensity to overheat, but still…
Where did you grow up?
Northern Virginia. DC suburbs.
Certainly hot and sticky enough to put an auto A/C system to the test!
Yep!
By the way, that ’73 Bavaria was purchased in Honolulu, and it replaced a….1971 Volvo 164, also with factory air. That Volvo is the car in my earliest, hazy childhood memories.
Though I don’t remember, I doubt the A/C in the Volvo was used very much since we lived in San Diego and Honolulu when we had it…2 cities with probably the most pleasant climates on Earth.
@ tbm3fan :
Thanx , I never did make it to Europe .
Reading and thinking about Daniel’s comments I began to think if the changed volumetric capacity of up graded SANDEN systems and/or previous low quality AC repairs might well be the reason German cars supposedly have poor or ‘weak’ AC….
We just recently had an vacuum test and recharge done on my brother’s 1997 Mercedes 300SDL and it blows nice and cool now, this on R134a .
-Nate
It’s mostly because the POE systems on European imports in the ’60s and ’70s (and into the ’80s in some cases) had severely underspecified condensers and inadequate cabin insulation. Your ’97 is far too new to be included on the list of European cars with weak A/C.
No my ’97 M-B, my newest one is a late 1984 Wagon .
You’re right about the condenser ~
An old Hot Rod trick I learned in the 19770’s was to scavenge the largest one you could find, usually from a Cadillac and install it to your crappy beater .
I’m still thinking about your pressure & volume comments ~ this system is no longer by the book applicable as no one has any idea what the volume is so like fine tuning the internal pressure in a slush box I needed base pressures and will peak and tweak it from there .
FWIW : I now have my ’82 M-B 240D’s slush box shifting as it did when new, a thing it hasn’t done since the retired factory trained now indie M-B, Mechanic rebuilt it .
By the book is good but each machine is *slightly* different and knowing how to fine tune any machine is part of being a Journeyman Mechanic .
At least I now know what not to exceed in the pressures .
-Nate
‘draft – O – phobic’. That Niedermeyer family history is a CC gift that keeps on giving.
AC for imports? Datsun for all US market models-1970, American-designed-dealer installed from a kit. Honda Accord from day one(1976), designed specifically for it, all necessary parts came in one box, and installed by the dealer. VW from about 1965 in kit form-dealer installed. On the other hand, my ’70 Ford Capri 1600 was an underdash unit. My BMW 325iS(’87) had factory-installed AC. BMW 2002 from ’74 had dealer-installed kits that went where the center console was.
My a/c baptism was in probably the summer of 1966 when my sister and I were spending the day at some family friends for reasons I no longer recall. The Mom had a white 66 Buick Electra with a black vinyl roof – the height of modern style at that time. We got in and I expected the normal sweltering misery on the black vinyl seats until I got a whiff of that slightly musty air conditioned air. Just wow.
The odd thing is that our house (built in 1959 and bought by my parents in 1962) was equipped with central air, but neither new car they had chosen since moving there (the 64 Cutlass or the 66 Country Squire) had it. None of the cars of any other relatives or friends was either – well, my granddad’s 62 Cadillac was, but I don’t remember any summer visits before 1966 when I would have known about it. 1968-72 was the Great Air Conditioned Car Conversion in my upper midwestern area.
TWO shades of turquoise were available?! If it could be done then, it should be able to be done today.
Yes indeed. I think this was the lighter one Paul was thinking of.
And it wasn’t just Chevy/GM – Chrysler offered two, as did the 66 Thunderbird (only the lighter version was on regular Fords).
+1! I love turquoise cars! It’s been a long time since I’ve had one.
Our family’s 1966 Chevy Impala also did not have AC, as my Dad did not find such things necessary. Even out ’68 Impala did without.
That would change with the 1973 LTD, as I think Dad had finally had enough of Maryland’s typical hot & humid summers. AC is an absolute must here.
One minor nit, Paul… I think you’ve been out in the PNW for too long.
The Harrisburg Expressway is I-83, not I-84… but then you knew that. ;o) It was probably just a typo.
Yes, I-83. Typo or dementia; take your pick.
Well I am even more glad we got the hell out of Maryland in 1966 since up to that time I can’t recall me having issues with heat and humidity. I can’t recall if my father’s 1964 Galaxie, where the five of us took it cross country, when we moved from Catonsville to the San Fernando Valley had AC. Took the northern route with three kids in the back seat and a sure fire recipe for conflict but I recall no problems. Plus one foot well taken up by a small styrofoam cooler carrying two goldfish who didn’t complain. Funny I do recall the first week in the Valley was hot and I suffered one hellacious sunburn on my back, after a day in the motel pool, which prevented me from laying down for three days. That never happened at the pool in Maryland. That sunburn was bad enough, and all it takes is one bad one, to make sure my back is checked every year by a dermatologist. Oh, and every car since 1966 now had AC.
We left Catonsville the year before (1965) for Vermont. My Dad had an accident right outside our motel as we were moving in his ’63 Rambler and bought a ’65 Olds F85 up in Vermont. None of his cars had air conditioning until we had moved to Virginia (’69) and it took till ’73 when he bought a new Ford Ranch Wagon. We ended up moving back to Vermont (’75) and his “family” car always had air conditioning after the ’73 (but his 2nd (commuter) car didn’t have it until he moved to Texas, and even then took a few years till all his cars were air conditioned (into the mid 80’s). Likewise, I followed them to Texas (from my first job in Massachusetts) with a non-airconditioned car, which I kept a few years until the mid 80’s since all my cars have been air conditioned.
We moved around a lot in my Dad’s younger years; though my Dad was originally in the Army, he left it way back in the early 50’s…he worked in the semiconductor field (starting when he left college in ’56) and various jobs had him moving every few years, up until he moved to Texas (40 years ago) when he finally stopped moving. He was with Westinghouse while living in Catonsville (and Wilmerding PA before that).
None of our cars had A/C until the mid ‘80’s, when my mom started buying off-lease Mopars through my brother-in-law, who was a (now retired) manager with Chrysler Canada. Until then, rolling down the window had to suffice, and with the constant stream of smoke from my dad’s pipes and cigarettes it was a necessity. Needless to say, my wife and I are non-smokers and when we go on road trips in the summer it’s in air-conditioned comfort.
Ahhh, the lament over the old, utilitarian ‘longroof’, where one could fit a 4×8 sheet of plywood or drywall, a couple boxes of nails, screws, tape and mud. Head home from the hardware/lumber yard and finish off that basement or garage.
I sure do miss these old buggers. They did the work of a light duty pickup in a pinch, yet could take the wife and kids to the lakes, mtns, or desert on the weekends. If you wanted to you could fold down the rear seats and roll out a couple sleeping bags. Camp without dew falling and tussling up momma’s hair.
Too bad so many of these grand old wagons got folded into a knot at the local fairgrounds during demo-derby night.
One that escaped that fate was found out on the midwest prairie during a routine service by a lineman. Parked in a farmer’s garage sat a near perfect example of a big block, 4 speed, positraction wagon ordered out new to pull an r/v trailer home in 1963. It had around 40,000 original miles. The lineman quickly made a deal and brought it home, cleaned it up, and showed it at many of our local car shows. He sold it a few years ago and it went out to the San Diego area. If the current owner is here and still loves this old Chevy, please give us an update …… would love to see it again and hear your story !
The desert southwest has long been a hotbed of car air conditioning, but when I was growing up, all the cars we had were old. Even when my dad bought a ’61 Mercedes 190Db in 1966, it was not air-conditioned (and probably never could be, given how underpowered that thing was!). In 1971 I got a ’62 Valiant with aftermarket Mopar A/C, but it was leaky and using it made the engine want to overheat. It was 1978 when I finally got a car with factory A/C–what a revelation! Ample cold, dehumidified air without straining the engine or making it overheat, windows rolled up against the din of traffic–I’ve never looked back.
As for A/C on import cars I remember the 66-67 Toyota Corona’s having it as an factory installed option. I can imagine that with the 2 speed opt. Toyoglide auto.
Growing up in the ’50s I never rode in a car with a/c until in 1958 when we were vacationing in Arizona with relatives and a/c was fairly common in Arizona at the time although they were aftermarket installations. On long trips with the parents our “a/c” was the 4/60 variety-great fun crossing Kansas in July. My parents first car with factory a/c was a ’66 Pontiac-what a change!
Such a short rear door for such a long car
When I was a kid my folks had a 1966 Dodge Polara wagon with aftermarket Cust-O-Matic a/c installed, just like in this photo except red instead of black to match the interior, and there were ducts not shown here that connected to the left and right sides, reaching across the width of the dash to feed a chrome eyeball vent just inside the front doors, for a total of four vents across the underside of the dash. I believe it only could recirculate air (the windows sometimes had to be opened slightly). I never did figure out what the “hiway” or “city” knob position changed. The thing broke after about ten years, and eventually my dad yanked it out which made the interior feel roomier with so much open space below the dash.
It worked but not as well as the Airtemp factory a/c would have, and the car being black with untinted glass didn’t help. The ritual on hot days was to roll down the crank windows for the first few minutes of a drive, then my mom would say “roll up the windows, I’m putting the air conditioner on”. And I’d wait five minutes before it got as cool as with the windows down.
Growing up in the UK in the 1970s and 1980s, air conditioning just wasn’t really a thing, at least not in the cars I rode in. My first A/C experience was when I was given a lift home from scouts in a friend’s dad’s Bentley. The whole experience was somewhat of a revelation, I was used to 1970s vinyl and plastic and the Bentley was all leather and real wood. As a demo, the driver (who was not my friend’s dad – he was rich enough to pay someone to pick his son up from scouts) turned the A/C to max, and it was a blast of pure icy air that came out. In all my experience of A/C since then, I’m not sure I’ve ever come across one that was quite so ferociously cold.
First A/C ride for me was uncle’s ’64 Buick Sportwagon. That glass roof over the backseat made it almost mandatory. Very comfortable taking a trip with my cousins on US 99 (pre-I5) up the central valley of California in summer.
When dad bought the ’65 Impala wagon, still no A/C. There was a green (the lighter of two shades) nine passenger Belair on the lot with the “Air Conditioned” label in the rear side window. He wanted the Blue (also the lighter of two shades) one in Impala trim, but no third seat and no A/C. Yes, there were two shades of blue, green, turquoise and red among the 15 paint colors, and six interior colors.
’65 wagon had 8.25×14 tires vs 7.75×14 for convertibles and wimpy 7.35×14 for the rest. Rims did look wide with the dog dish hubcaps.
64 Skylark for me and this was in 1967 Israel. Back then AC was something you found only in _tourist_ buses or limos which were for _foreign tourists_, not us local plebs, and even home AC was a luxury only very well-off people had. The car was my uncle’s and the whole neighborhood came to have a look, people just could not believe it (“oh it’s just a flow-through ventilation with a very strong fan you know” etc.). My uncle, his wife and daughter and me and dad went on an extended tour of the Sinai desert in it and the experience was oh so very different than trips in dad’s 64 Ford Fairlane (we were at least allowed to open the windows, but that went only so far when temps were over 90°f), it did not miss a beat even with the V6.
I like everyone trying to hide in the shade.
Think Death Valley temperatures, Sinai desert is really as described in the Bible. This was on the way looking down towards the Dead Sea plains, more of the same.
I remember automotive air conditioning from thousands of years ago, when it actually produced COLD (not “cool”) air.
Folks would show-off their new air conditioned car, by making it so cold inside that the passengers were uncomfortable. Man, that’s livin’.
The early A/C could be tuned to keep the evaporator around 32–33 degrees; so the humidity in the air didn’t freeze and plug the fins on the evaporator. The dash vents would spit occasional ice crystals, though.
All that was DONE in 1977 (?) when GM lied to the public about the reason for the Cycling Clutch Orifice Tube (CCOT) A/C system. We were told that it was for improved fuel economy; the clutch engaged the compressor intermittently so the compressor didn’t load the engine all the time and “waste fuel”. Fact is, if it was hot enough out and the system was fully-charged, the compressor ran all the time anyway. A Cycling-Clutch system that cycles the clutch in really hot weather is an indication of low refrigerant charge! In addition, the intermittent load on the engine caused speed fluctuation that the cruise control was hard-pressed to keep up with. Mom’s 77 Nova 305 would perpetually vary the highway speed by two or three miles an hour as the compressor engaged and disengaged. (Adding a pound of refrigerant would have made the problem less noticeable.)
The REAL reason for CCOT was that GM scrapped a heap of expensive valves and castings, in favor of a 50-cent screened orifice. CCOT was a cost-cutting move masquerading as a consumer benefit. It was so good at cutting costs that Ford also used their version of CCOT. I’m guessing it’s since spread through the industry. There’s other A/C technologies–variable-displacement compressors, for example. But CCOT “ruled the roost” for years and years.
Along with making the system MUCH cheaper to build, CCOT was also the end of 32-degree air. CCOT is doing pretty good to show 40 degrees at the dash vent, and more typically 43–45, maybe higher depending on state-of-charge, humidity, ambient temperature, etc.
God bless R12 and the Pressure Operated Absolute Suction Throttling Valve (POA-STV) A/C systems of old. (The somewhat newer Valves-In-Receiver (VIR) system was similar, but with miniaturized components and no tuneability, so it doesn’t play well with R134a.)
It appears there’s an aftermarket solution for the fixed orifice tube—a drop-in widget marketed as the “Smart VOV” which approximates the function of a TXV (thermostatic expansion valve). Said to give markedly colder air and other benefits. Comes in regular or extra-strength, just like Tylenol!.
My exasperation on this subject comes from the decision that vehicle HVAC should work like residential HVAC: set a temperature and the system falsely claims to maintain it. So compressor clutch cycling was eliminated and temperature modulation was handled entirely by blending cold air off the evaporator with hot air off the heater core. As you say, none of these systems seems able to get the evaporator as cold as when the evaporator temperature itself is used as the thermostatic trigger. Regardless of how sophisticated such a system is intended to be, I always find myself ceaselessly adjusting the temperature. I much prefer the cycling-clutch systems that give perceptible hysteresis around the setpoint. The periodic colder-than-ambient frosty breeze is much more refreshing than a steady stream of constant-temperature air, at least to my nerve endings.
You and I part company when it comes to refrigerants. I used to be a staunch advocate of R12, and for some years I flirted with one of the zeotropic blends (R406A/Autofrost), but every time I thought I perceived a cooling deficit due to R134a, it was in fact caused by something else—most often an inadequate condenser. Fix that, and R134a does a terrific job. I think most opinions that R134a is poopy stem from half-baked conversions of R12 systems that were often underspecified to begin with, and/or had an impossible job of trying to cool a poorly-insulated, leaky solar oven on wheels. Arizona Mobile Air did a big series of refrigerant-and-condenser tests twenty years ago that nicely illustrate the point. Look at the vent temps, yes, and also the high-side pressures. Quick spot check: 110° ambient, 100° in-car temp, R134a refrigerant. Tube/fin condenser gave 49° vent temps, 32 PSI low side, 321 PSI high side. Parallel-flow condenser gave 42° vent temps, 27 PSI low side, 240 PSI high side. That’s 15% lower vent temp, 15% lower low-side pressure, and 25% lower high-side pressure by upgrading the condenser.
I’m very much onside with the sturdy arguments against unofficial or nonstandard refrigerants. Inflammable ones like the isobutane/isopropane/other hydrocarbon blends are stark, raving foolhardy to put in a system not designed to contain or transport such materials; that one’s obvious. But even a nonstandard refrigerant that doesn’t present a fire hazard brings other drawbacks—chief among which is that you’d best be prepared to do all your own A/C repair work, because no reputable shop will touch a system filled with something other than what’s supposed to be there, at least not without a very hefty surcharge. Nevertheless, take a look at these · three · movies…things that make y’go “H’mmmm”. (Check out the guy’s whole channel; it’s a terrific wabbit hole of arcane refrigeration stuff. Refurbishment and retrofitment of antiques, etc.)
I appreciate the heads-up regarding the VOV. That’s all news to me. Will investigate later.
Yes, R134a can cool. Generally takes a “better” if not bigger condenser, just as you described. Stock up, Big Government wants to eliminate R-134a before long. If you think it’s expensive now, just wait five years.
I watched an on-line seminar on automotive refrigerants while cleaning the cat-boxes. Seems that there’s a whole slew of different-numbered refrigerants far beyond what I ever imagined. CO2 has an “R” number; (R-744) as does Propane (R-290). The Next Big Thing in automotive A/C seems to be R-1234yf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_refrigerants
There was a time when I was aghast at folks replacing refrigerants willy-nilly; using Propane, using proprietary blends of this-and-that. And that sort of thing will cause real problems if it contaminates the recovered refrigerant in a shop. I get that mixed or “contaminated” refrigerant is a bad thing.
OTOH, the local skating rink has to spend millions of taxpayer dollars to upgrade their equipment because R-22 for making ice is now scarce due to Government Regulations; R-12 is outright EVIL and essentially non-obtainable except as old stock; but the last straw for me was that the “solution” to R-12 (R134a) is itself getting phased-out in favor of something even more expensive.
Government interference and intrusion knows no boundaries; and I’m losing my sense of humor about it.
Updated my comment with links to the Smart VOV.
Yes, R134a is being phased out and R-1234yf is being phased in—for new systems, not for conversion of older ones. This isn’t some nefarious plot to maximise government intrusion and interference or to bleed taxpayers’ wallets, it’s a well-warranted response to the advancing state of knowledge and understanding of how human activities affect the habitability of this, our only planet. CFCs like R-12 and R-22 were phased out because they were destroying the ozone layer. HFCs like R-134a don’t eat ozone, but they are very potent greenhouse gases, so they are being phased out.
Up through the first sixty-some years of the 20th century we did as we pleased, blissfully oblivious to its effects beyond whatever the immediate use was. CFCs enabled refrigeration, PCBs facilitated big electrical components like transformers, asbestos made things fireproof, tetraethyl lead suppressed engine knock—and that was all we cared about. Gradually, science (i.e., knowledge) advanced and we began growing conscious that we were busily writing death warrants for humans and humanity with these and many other chemicals and substances. It’s uncomfortable, inconvenient, and expensive to have to pull up stakes and redo things, but the alternative is a whole hell of a lot worse.
THANK YOU Mr. Stern and Schurkey ! .
I stopped doing AC repairs in 1986 on then new GM X – Bodies in a large fleet and to a much lesser extent to a large number of 1974 Ford Mavericks .
The X-Cars all had Delco R4 compressors with ceramic input shaft seals that failed frequently, I was just a Mechanic and so was prohibited from doing anything more than relieving the system and installing a new seal and maybe hoses if they were ballooned near the crimped ends .
NO evacuation, NO flushing and NO replacing of the receiver-dryers .
This didn’t set well with me, they didn’t want me to use a gauge set either so I never had much idea what the system pressures were and those crappy orifice tubes often clogged in brandy new cars with mysterious bits of lint….
I’ve upgraded all my old W123 Mercedes to Japanese SANDEN compressors and parallel flow condensers but had not idea how much R134a to put in, now you’ve given me the base suction and high side pressures, at what RPM’s please ? .
I need to figure out where my AC gauge manifold is and set to work .
-Nate
R4 compressors eat shaft seals for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Not letting you use the proper tools and do the jobs properly seems shortsighted and stupid of them, whoever “they” were.
Speaking of doing the job properly: charge amount is not determined by guessing at pressure readings. Ideally it’s done by weight. Most systems are labelled as to their charge capacity. If that figure is given for R12, start with 70 per cent of that figure for R134a, keeping in mind that by changing the compressor and the condenser you’ve changed the volumetric capacity of the system. You will probably have to add more than the initial 70 per cent, but it’s easier to add more than to add less. Once you’ve got that basic amount in the system, then you can adjust the amount little by little, keeping track of the low and high side pressures and the output air temperatures. But the conditions have to be right—all windows open, blower on high speed, you need a certain amount of airflow across the condenser, you need an accurate read on the ambient temperature, the engine running at a fast idle—there’s quite a lot to know and do; it’s a lot more complicated than checking the dipstick and adding a quart.
Heh Nate, your 1974 Maverick reference got me curious. When we moved to Denver in the very hot and dry summer of ‘74, Dad bought for Mom a cool blue now with big-bumpers! …Blu blue interior as well. This Maverick came with the 302. With the AC, it was nose heavy and a poor handler, and wore out it’s front tires fast, making that the annoying aspect for Dad. By 76 Dad and mom shopped the Mustang II but my Dad couldn’t fit in, so they bought a 76 Pacer X, a car Mom loved until she started getting teased about it at work by the early 80s. But what was the thing about 74 Mavericks and their AC if you don’t mind?
Understood but when you’re the employee not the boss or owner you do what they tell you or you get your walking papers…
This is why I preferred to have my own shop for some time .
I just wanted a base idea of the correct pressures to begin with .
-Nate
There is, of course, truth to what you say. But come back to me in another 25 years when R-1234yf is widely considered to be the cause of some other calamity that is not currently on our radar. And it would also be naïve to overlook the consideration that government regulators and large manufacturers of chemical compounds always have their own agendas that are almost never purely altruistic.
Yep, it’s entirely possible R-1234yf will have to be phased out sometime in the future (assuming humanity survives that long).
Politicians will be politicians, but let’s please not be even hinting at giving any credence to silly crapola like that long-debunked thing about how Dupont pushed R134a because the patent ran out on R12.
@Brad :
L.A.X. got a screaming deal on mustard yellow 1974 4 door Mavericks ~ all had a three speed slushbox tranny ( C4 ?) and inline 6 banger engines .
They bought so many they were still pulling new ones out of storage and doing PDI’s on them close to ten years later…
For hauling engineers and low level white collar employees around at slow speeds they excelled even though the rode *very* low and often suffered undercarriage damage .
I don’t recall they ever had AC problems, they used a big square looking parallel two cylinder compressor, York IIRC .
In 1974 this may have still been factory fitment, I don’t know .
Incredibly cheap like the original falcons they were unkillable, maybe because the mandatory pollution control devices added made them so incredibly under powered .
I wasn’t allowed to by pass / disable the E.G.R. valves nor the thermostaic timing delay devices, like many American cars of this age it was pretty simple to by pass or disable the various vacuum valves and controls to make them run O.K. if not overly powerful .
Crappy AM radio and industrial strength vinyl seats made these *perfect* in town family haulers, I l know they were used as Mexican taxis in border towns as during that time I spent much time in Mexico and rode in them .
Dull and drab, they were affordable and long lived if anyone cared to maintain them, few did .
I prolly should have bought one at the salvage auction as they sold for well under $500 then and my old ’68 Chevy Malibu stripper ex Sacramento METRO division car was getting very long in the tooth .
I’m sorry I don’t have much to tell you about them, good solid if BLAH cars IMO .
The V8 models were usually called “Grabber” and were also uninspiring .
This was the job that inspired me to make a tech class to gain my smog test license, by the time I finsihed the class and had my certificate instead of taking the Ca. state licensing exam I quit the job .
-Nate
Ford used a lot of those York cinderblock-shaped compressors in the ’60s and ’70s, yes.
OBTW :
You _both_ are well aware that the Generous Motors Corporation would never, _EVER_ lie to anyone…..
? Right ? .
-Nate
I’ll guess my first automotive A/C experience was mid-1960s, and it was pretty magical—though, being raised in a wagon’s third-row seat, it took a while for the cooler/drier air to make itself all the way back there from the dash outlets.
About today’s ’66: I pulled up the brochure and was reminded of the days of endless options & possibilities. Chevy gives all the details about the engines, and which do/don’t get dual exhaust, larger exhaust pipe diameter, resonator, etc. etc. But then I remind myself that was 55 years ago—like reaching from 1966 back to 1911……
My best friend’s parents owned a white Bel-Air wagon like the one in the article I think it was a ’66, I’m not sure. It was the sole “normal” vehicle they ever owned, until they were about 50 or so. Those oddballs included an MGB, Triumph TR4A, a Gremlin, a VW bus, and as the final weirdo car, a Pacer, which everyone hated and was traded for a Nova.
The Bel-Air had the 283 two barrel, I think, it wasn’t a quick car, and it had no A/C, something I just couldn’t believe, as every car we had growing up had it, and if it went out, the car was back that the dealer that day, if possible. As time went on, the Bel-Air got pretty rusted up, and as a father/son project, my friend and his dad learned bodywork from their neighbor, and practiced it on the wagon. After all the rust was gone and all the bodywork was done, it went to MAACO for a nicely done paint job in a very unfortunate color, shit brown. It was still running well in 1982, when it disappeared one day, replaced with a new Buick of some kind. The engine had seized in it, and it went off to the boneyard.
I was born in 1968 in Australia, which was a mistake. I was clearly designed for some place far cooler. With the benefit of education and the wisdom of age, I now see the scientific proof that I was hooked to the wrong stork. Never have liked birds, the chirpy bastards.
In consequence of my woebegotten origin, I spent my entire childhood hot. I did not know there was a thing called airconditioning, mainly because by and large, there wasn’t. Only the exciting new supermarket had it, and as a kid, I didn’t know that that was the cause of me wanting to set up home there in summer. I think my mum thought her toddler liked shopping (for the record, I have always detested it).
Once in a blue moon, whilst gasping, windowblown, out the window of our whatevermobile, I would spy people in cars with the windows up. Whatever was this, Stoics, Spartans? I soon found out, and thence dreamed of nothing else. I wanted a/c everywhere, I wanted airconditioned underpants. It only took me till I was twenty-bloody-seven to own a car which had a/c, or a/c that worked!
How silly was it that in a country like this, a/c in cars was not at all common until the late ’80’s. In fact, theoretically, it was still an option on a Commodore as late as 2000 (theoretical, as no-one bought them thus, but it meant base price could be x amount lower). It is utterly exhausting to drive a decent distance in warm weather with the wind blasting you. It may as well double the trip for tiredness, and this ain’t a small country.
I do exaggerate, ofcourse, for Melbourne is not really a hot place. As I write this, it’s grey and 49F, a temp very common for perhaps 4 or more months of the year. Average elsewise is perhaps about 75F, with no more than a handful of 100plus jobs in summer.
But I am still traumatized and damaged by the failure of my countrymen to see the sense in airconditioning when I was young and tender. It is clearly exactly something that God intended to be universal, and the graceless state without it, a sin.
If that’s not true, He wouldn’t have amused Himself by inventing Australia out of all his leftover odd bits in the first place.
My first experience of car air conditioning came in 1984, in my fiancée’s ’83 Toyota Corona. Only thing I liked about that car was the coolth in summer. I had the famous base-trim ’74 Mark3/TC Cortina (Air conditioning? Surely you jest!), while the family clunker was a ’67 Falcon that would’ve been ordered off the road if the police had ever looked at it. Although Dad had been a commercial traveller, the days of his being able to afford a newer used car were well and truly over. And rented flats didn’t have aircon back then. Now that I think about it, I don’t think we even knew anyone with it in their house even. And then this girl goes and pushes a blue button in this shiny new Toyota and…..
I’m about 100km west of Justy, Outside of Melbourne (I escaped 31 years ago) and inland away from those sea breezes it does get noticeably hotter with the wind across the western plains. IIRC last summer we peaked at 44C, though we have seen 50 here. We usually get 2-3 degrees C over Melbourne temps in summer, and 2-3 less in winter, because country.
Blue ’66 Chevy – check. 🙂 Not a wagon though…..
My 7th grade English teacher had a yellow 65 327 Impala SS convertible with air conditioning. Thought that was the dumbest thing I had even seen.
Here in the South, summer humidity combined with the midday sun will make you put the top up if you stop moving.
What I can’t figure out is why anyone would want a black interior. Ten minutes of sun and you couldn’t touch anything or move in your seat.
My parents had a ’65 Impala Super Sport, which was my first baptism in car a/c. While the car that preceded the Impala was a ’63 Pontiac Catalina, my dad hated that car and traded it as soon as the ’65 Impala SS’s hit the showrooms….and I was a bit young to remember the Pontiac.
Anyway, when the Chevy a/c worked, it worked great, as we lived in Dallas, TX with its infamous hot and muggy summers. When it didn’t work great, it was likely from refrigerant leaking past the compressor seals during the winter months.
The GM compressor and Harrison evaporator/condenser combos in those days, along with Refrigerant 12, made those cars into rolling deep freezers. I remember many family road trips as a kid being perfectly comfortable in the rear seats of our several GM cars, cars that did not have rear a/c supply vents. If I recall correctly, the compressors never cycled; if you wanted warmer air from the dash vents you moved a slide lever to push a bit of air through the car’s heater core. Being my parents were transplanted coastal Californians, that lever stayed fully left/cold all Dallas summer long!
The first car I ever had with wicked cold a/c was a ’73 Dodge Polara. When I bought the car, the compressor was trashed. I put in a new one and pulled a vacuum on the system using an old refrigerator compressor with a Schrader valve soldered onto it. A few cans of R12 and that car would freeze nuts off a brass monkey.
I now own a Tesla and it is not only the best R-134a system I’ve ever had, it’s also the best automatic climate control system to date, hands down.
I’d have to say Paul if you rode in a ’66 Bel Air with A/C that would be a really rare ride where I grew up (Wisconsin and Minnesota). The very definition of an automotive unicorn!
It more likely would have been a Caprice, maybe an Impala. I’ve seen many Buick Electras (including 2 of my uncle’s) and Olds 98’s with no A/C back in the ’60’s. Just like in houses where I grew up, cars very very rarely had A/C. It was very expensive for most, and deemed frivolous to almost anyone in that area at that time.
My 1st ride in an A/C car was a ’70 Chevy Impala company car my dad had for a short time. Car and home A/C started gaining in popularity in the early to mid ’70’s.
Our ’68 Electra didn’t have terribly cold A/C, and the engine hot light would come on sometimes when it was running. My dad said that was because a gas attendant had left the radiator cap off when it was nearly new. We drove through the Arizona and California desert in summer when moving to the O.C. with the A/C off and a water bag on the grille. For years, he’d put his hand in front of the central air vent and say “Needs more freon,” but he never had any added. That became a family joke.