Diesels are trying hard to make a comeback in the US, but it’s clearly a bit of an uphill battle. Hybrids are already well established and more are on the way, and conventional gas engines are improving their efficiency. But diesel’s market share in the US is growing; will it continue to? Will you be one to see that it does?
In Western Europe, where diesel is taxed lower than gas, and fuel prices are overall much higher, diesel’s market share has bounced around the 50% for years. That varies, depending on the taxation in specific countries, as well as the economy (smaller and cheaper cars are more likely to be bought in gas versions there than bigger ones).
In the US, the situation is more difficult, given that diesel typically sells for about 6-15% more than gas, and diesels typically cost more. Diesel’s market share of the passenger car market has been increasing, to around 3%, thanks to aggressive pushes mostly by the Germans, most of all VW. But even they are introducing new gas hybrid models too, hedging their bets. And some models have been eliminated (BMW 335d). Others have been talked about, but yet to appear (Mazda). And GM is getting back into the game with their German-engined Cruze.
Undoubtedly, many diesel fans buy diesels because…they are diesel fans; similar to hybrid fans, although the exact reasons might be different. Obviously, diesel fans tend to place a higher priority on the driving experience, and modern diesels, with their high-torque characteristics, offer plenty. The economics of diesels are more complicated. They typically cost more, unless the purchase price has been subsidized by the manufacturer to help with CAFE numbers. Maintenance typically is more expensive than a simple gas engine. Modern diesels rely on numerous high-tech systems (read: expensive) to comply with current emission regs. That part does scare me a fair amount.
Of course, there’s the fuel efficiency improvement over a gas engine. But it’s often not enough to offset other costs. The 2013 Jetta diesel’s combined EPA rating (34) is 21% higher than the 2.0 gas engine, and 30% better than the 2.5. But those are pretty old-school; VW will be bringing substantially more efficient down-sized turbo gas engines for the Golf in 2014. The difference will than narrow substantially.
In fact, that’s exactly why the BMW 335d is gone; the turbocharged 2.0 gas 328i’s EPA numbers were too close, and the 335d engine was much more expensive to build. It reflects another reality: diesel engines have been struggling to maintain their efficiency levels due to their emission systems, which have a negative effect on efficiency. Meanwhile, gas engines have been making very substantial improvements in their efficiency over the past some years. The gap between the two is getting narrower.
Of course, in larger vehicles, that plays out differently than in smaller ones. The Mercedes E350 Bluetec diesel has a paltry 9% EPA combined improvement over the gas version.
In the much larger GL, the situation is more dramatic: the GL 350 Bluetec has a 38% better EPA Combined number than the GL450. Of course, that’s over a larger V8 gas engine, but apples-to-apples comparisons are not easy to come by. In Europe, the larger the vehicle, the more likely it will be a diesel, as the savings become more marked.
VW does offer three versions of the Touareg in the US: gas, hybrid and diesel. Their respective EPA combined numbers are 19, 21 and 23. But the VW hybrid system isn’t as much of a “full hybrid” as say the Toyota RX 300/Highlander.
In fact, the Toyota hybrid SUVs trump any of the German diesel ones by a substantial margin. The Lexus has a superb 32/28 and 30 Combined EPA rating, and attains similar number in the real world. The rather chauvinistic German magazine auto, motor und sport did an extensive comparison between a Lexus 400h and comparable German diesel SUV a few years back and found that the Lexus was fully their equal in overall efficiency, substantially trumping them in city mileage. Of course, if serous towing is on the agenda, the diesels have an obvious advantage.
The Prius and Jetta TDI are about as comparable as it gets, in terms of a hybrid-diesel comparison, although many will argue otherwise. Rather than use EPA numbers, in which the Prius crushes the VW 50 (combined) to 34, a better comparison are the real world results by users, which the EPA also compiles. There’s a range, depending on year and transmission, but the Jetta averages range from 37-43, and the Prius 45-49.
I didn’t intend this to be a hybrid-diesel comparison as much as simply an evaluation of the diesel’s own pros and cons, and its chance in the marketplace. So what say you?
Im a diesel fan but I steer well clear of VW and BMW and buy cars from PSA who invented the modern turbo diesel car. My choice was deliberate I did not want an eletronicly managed engine this time for my own reasons and I did want pin sharp cornering abilities and you sure dont get that from BMW or VW. I wanted proven longevity and a simple to repair car and thats what I got it uses 6L/100kms fully laden and easily outpulls 2.0L gas cars on hills. By the way BMW shops at PSA for diesel powertrains why shouldnt I.
I rented a Peugeot 208 with the 1.6 eco HDI in Europe last fall and with a gentle foot got 4.3l/100 over 9000 km in cold weather. It was a gem.
It was brand new and the first service was scheduled for 20,000 km.
Would I buy one? There has to be an upside.
Right now, diesel is selling for about twenty cents a gallon more than gasoline…or about five cents cheaper than straight gas, which I can still get in my area. And electronic engine controls have brought gas-engine mileage way, WAY up…to where it approaches turbo-diesel territory without the mechanical complexity.
Add to that the probability in the future of having mandated afterburner setups such as trucks use, including that urea solution I discussed…there’s another cost of operation there. AND another headache. Add to THAT…block-heater necessity.
What it all comes up to, is a negatory on diesels. I’m not opposed to them; but the numbers don’t add up.
I would agree, a diesel is not really practical in the US now for passenger cars, diesels are too fussy for the general public, the cost of a gallon of diesel is not competitive, and gas economy is excellent now a days. When the Oldsmobile diesel came out in 1978, it was attractive because, despite it being rather slow (but none slower than a Mercedes at the time) it was like a dream come true, big car, cheaper fuel, and small car-like fuel economy. Had the Olds diesel been more successful, it would have been like a revolution.
There is a fellow in my area of North Carolina that has a 1987 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham he replaced the 307/200R4 with a 6.5 Turbo Diesel and 700R4 transmission. No computer just the diesel controller. It is noisy and a bit weird sounding when the turbo spools up and blows off wastegate but he gets like 9+ sec 0-60 and 18/29 MPG with an easy foot.
What I say is N-O. Never again. I had an ’83 Mercedes 300CD turbo diesel coupe from new, drove it 250K miles and 15 years when I was hauling all over Southern Cal for my work. Loved the car, midnight blue w/palomino interior, it always got looks and thumbs up, but man, what a costly maintenance headache, and I would take it in religiously every 5,000 miles. Expensive parts, expensive labor, expensive fuel. And you would have to stake out gas stations on your regular routes where you could obtain diesel fuel, it was by no means ubiquitous. Slower than molasses to accelerate, although it did pretty well at speed. Maybe all that’s changed now, but I would not go down that road again.
Diesels have come a long way in 30 years Don,try a newer one and you’ll be surprised.I sometimes drive a Mercedes CLS 320 diesel and it’s pretty good.Acceleration is no problem,parts and labour however is still steep
After driving a 1987 Mercedes TE and a Ford F350 Ambulette I have to say that the diesel engines are predictable and strong. The Mercedes didn’t knock my head back in the acceleration department but did have 240,000 trouble free miles on it and still got high 20’s in the mpg department. The diesels I’ve driven are not as fun to drive as their petrol cousins on the twisty roads but are nice and smooth on the highway. I like hearing a diesel hum. In addition to the benz, the Power Stroke was very enjoyable to drive. It was very loud but that is something you get used to in time. Kinda soothing to me and the thing never overheated or stalled out once during it’s 10 hour shift.
I would buy a diesel because I liked it, not exclusively for fuel savings; I view the fuel savings as a bonus. Diesels are generally nicer to drive, and can run incredibly efficiently in constant highway cruising. You have to be willing to accept German repair costs, though, which will probably negate fuel savings at some point. It’s helpful to find a good TDI mechanic once out of warranty. (Even the Jeep diesels require additional, costly maintenance, I’ve heard.)
I would buy one, but my wife refuses. She claims that one would be too inconvenient to fuel up. I think having a torque monster that gets great gas mileage would be fun to drive . . .
Nearly as hard as filling a gas car I can see her point.
Finding a fuel station that sells diesel in the States is a problem in some areas. And if you’re off your regular beaten path, you can spend MOST of your trip worrying about fuel. And in this day and age, a woman with car troubles in a strange area, is cause for low-grade panic and often catastrophic.
Thanks, Gem, but I have reached a point in my life where I would not even go down the Mercedes road again, let alone a diesel or any other exotic European car. The sequel to my ’83 300CD story involves two more M-B’s, a ’91 300CE and a ’99 CLK 320, both gas models (and I was a sucker for the coupes, too). Both stunning looking cars, enjoyable to drive, virtual rocket ships, but that old German maintenance cost thing struck again, not only at regular maintenance intervals, but a failed head gasket in the ’91, and a failed transmission (still under warranty, thank heavens) in the ’99. When both of the trunk-mounted rear seat back release latches in the ’99 broke, not long after the transmission debacle, which involved a bill of about $800 each, and complete disassembly of the rear seat area, twice, I finally threw in the towel. My thirty year love affair with Mercedes, gas or diesel, came to a screeching halt, the quality and reliability were just not there anymore. I am happy as a clam now in my ’03 Ford Thunderbird, think I might just hang on to that for a long while (guess I already have!).
We service a small fleet of 6 Sprinter vans for a close family friend. The learning curve on servicing the vehicles has not been too bad (considering) but the parts prices are high. Fortunately, the owner can spare a van so we can order major replacement parts off the internet and save a lot of money. A new EGR cooler was $600 (wholesale) and a DPF $1,200, please. We cut it with a torch and had it sent off arrived 10 days later cleaned for $400. Granted, the Sprinters are long haul road utility vehicles which is an entirely different ownership formula than a passenger car, but the costs are high. A replacement TDI for a Jetta is $4,000 new $2,800 used with a warranty.
I’ve had a bizarre crush on Sprinters (the cool Euro van look), but Ford may just spoil their party if their domesticated 2014 Transit proves to have lower operating costs. Among the engine options is a turbodiesel:
http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=37486
Though I’ve heard bad things about the Powerstroke around here.
The big advantage of the Sprinter, and maybe the Ford Transit now, is the relative height versus width. Old style vans were basically square inside held a lot of room but you could not work in it. The Sprinter you could stand up inside of it. At a commercial show that I attended last year I stood inside a Sprinter that was converted to a “mobile mechanic’s special” complete with shelving work bench and an auxiliary generator for powering small tools. It was a very very nice set up.
I like Sprinters, they are fairly easy to work on spatially (rarely do you have to lift then since the ground clearance is incredible) but parts costs are just high high high.
A major part of the reason Sprinters got popular is that they were pushed through the Dodge dealer which of course meant instant penetration as opposed to being sold through Daimler commercial units.
I might like the upcoming Mazda Diesels as long as they are smooth, efficient, powerful, & fun to drive.
I’m also interested in what Mazda brings to the US for diesel options. I generally like Mazda as a brand. I’m fairly certain they wouldn’t want to compromise their image as the sporty jap brand.
I generally like Mazda as a brand. I’m fairly certain they wouldn’t want to compromise their image as the sporty jap brand.”
That is why I love Mazdas.
I’d do it. I have access to all the diesel I could ever want (I live in Carlisle, PA, less than 10 minutes from about 6 truck stops) and I can justify in my own mind the price premium. Unfortunately, it’s still too steep for me.
I will be in Carlisle twice this year, for AACA Show end of May and Chrysler Nationals in July. Of course I go to Hershey in October as well. I am just glad I don’t have to go through that goofy Breezewood exit.
You guys echo my point the german stuff aint where its at, huge cost of repairs being the main one and our Kiwi Peso aint worth a damn, my little beastie at roughly half life has been fed a diet of chinese parts, brake rotors and pads and some aftermarket suspension bushes, a new cambelt kit from China is next thankyou Don Feng for your joint venture your are not only cheaper but closer and the parts are cheaper than Toyota, I know coz my last car was a diesel Toyota Corona. Our fuel prices are another reason to go diesel regular gas is $2.16L, Diesel is $1.48 plus RUC @ $55.00 per thousand, speedos are checked @ 6 monthly intervals at Warrant of Fitness inspections and yep my speedo works, Cars are charged at the 3 tonne rate which is unfair and actually penalises the diesel driver here but hey drive my car under our road conditions and you can see why it became the most successful WRC car ever, they started with something no other car can follow on corners and made it faster.
Paul, the other reason BMW has dropped the 335d is because they’re introducing the 328d to the US, with a 2.0L turbodiesel inline-4 with 180 hp and 280 ft-lbs. 0-60 in 7.2s and projected highway fuel economy over 40 mpg. I think BMW’s going this direction is that they realized that the people looking for a diesel want superior fuel economy. The 335d certainly did better than the 335i in that department but it wasn’t eye-popping economy.
http://www.autoblog.com/2013/03/14/bmw-328d-confirmed-for-new-york-debut/
I would conisder a diesel if I weren’t basically limited to German options. My wife drives a Prius, and it was bought primarly for fuel ecoomy. It is used for mostly highway, so realistically a VW TDI would probably get similar hwy mileage. It’d probably be more enjoyable to drive on the highway too, as the Prius labours in the hills. The diesel torque would be nice, as my vehicle is V8 powered so I am used to ample torque. That said, I don’t trust VW’s long term reliability. If the Toyota made a small efficient car with a diesel, I’d be tempted to trade in the Prius on one (as long as I could convince my wife since it’s her car).
I often wonder if they put a high efficiency diesel into a Prius body if it would be get better hwy MPG’s vs the Hybrid drivetrain. I’d also thought it’d be interesting if Toyota made a diesel hybrid, which might assist in making the car feel more peppy. An Atikinson cycle gasser isn’t exactly torquey.
When I used to have my old Oldsmobile fullsize wagon, I often throught about swapping the gutless 307 Olds for a small diesel. Too bad the 350 Olds Diesel didn’t turn out to be a winner, otherwise I would have bought one for sure. If it were stout enough a small turbo would have made it have decent power and still turn in top notch fuel economy all in a big car.
“An Atikinson cycle gasser isn’t exactly torquey.” Nope, it’s just there for power. The electric motor is there for torque, which is what lets the Prius engine run the more efficient Atkinson cycle.
2011 Prius 1.8L Atkinson-cycle engine: 98 hp, 105 lb-ft.
2011 Prius motor/generator: 80 hp, 153 lb-ft., with max torque at zero rpm.
Diesel hybrids have been a tougher problem, so far only the Peugeot 3008 HYbrid4 is in production. It is spec’d at 3.8 L/100km (62 mpg).
I’m not certain why it’s harder to hybridize a diesel. It is critical for a full hybrid to be able to start and stop the engine in a fraction of a second. Does it take more time and/or energy to start up a diesel? Another issue could be the complexity of a clean diesel plus the hybrid system.
The only issue with diesel hybrids is cost. You would have the double whammy of the battery pack, inverter and motor(s) plus the diesel injection, turbo, intercooler and after treatment. Really only makes sense when fuel cost is super high or driving distances very long.
This situation is what’s limiting EV sales. Hard core environmentalists will be happy to learn the “well to wheel” CO2 emissions of a diesel hybrid are lower than an EV, unless you live in Japan or Europe where, in some places, all electricity comes from nuclear.
There is no technical hurdle preventing diesel + hybrid, in fact the electric motor would fill in the hole off the line for diesel very nicely. These would be awesome to drive.
I know the specs on the car, but trust me, we own one. I have driven it for a lot of miles, and it is not a torquey car by any stretch, especially compared to a diesel. The gas engine works in the hills that many other modern cars would barely notice. It has the power to keep up with most small cars, but it can be annoying listening to the engine rev just to climb a small hill on the highway.
Of course, Bill, I’ve been a Prius daily driver since September, 2000. It’s not a torquey car, but I can easily be first out at the green light or pass on the freeway just fine. I was just saying the Atkinson cycle engine isn’t expected to deliver much torque, it’s complimentary with the electric motors which fill in the low-end torque.
I share your concern about Deutsche Auto operating costs. Just the same, the Diesel/gas price spread in AZ is too great to justify a change, though I like Diesels in theory. The Prius, the best hybrid IMHO, makes sense if one drives much more than 15K mi. per annum or gas is much more costly; neither condition as yet applies to me. It was interesting doing the spreadsheet analysis for this.
I am in Canada, and diesel is typically a few cents cheaper than gas, but lately gas has been a bit cheaper. Regardless, they are usually not far apart, and diesel prices are much less volatile. The fuel cost is not really a big issue here, which is why VW diesels have been very common here for many years. I see far more TDI’s than gassers (not sure what the sales stats are though). I just would like something a bit with a bit more pep and fun to drive then the Toyota Prius.
We put a lot of miles on the Prius, that’s why we bought it. It replaced a Civic and there has a been a significant savings in fuel. The Pruis also beats it hands down for room, comfort and so far overall operating costs. My wife loves the car, but I miss the pep and handling of the Honda.
Even the Prius doesn’t really lend itself to a strict dollars-and-cents analysis. What do you compare it to? It can haul much bigger loads than a Corolla and is cheaper than a Camry. Scion xB? The Prius is far from perfect in many ways, but especially the 2nd gen with flat front floor and no center dash pod running down to the console, is one of the best packaged cars available in the US … IMHO. In Europe or Asia where more 5 door hatches are available, this may not be the case, but in the US the car makes a lot of sense, even if it didn’t get 42-50 mpg.
Right now in Fort Mill, SC this morning at the Pilot station 87 was $3.23/gal. diesel was $3.73/gal. Diesel usually runs a 40-45 cent premium at Pilot they are running 45 cetane #2 USLD. We run Opti-Lube in the Sprinters every oil change which is about 12,000 miles.
When in Rome, do as the Romans do and drive a diesel. But in the US?
I seem to remember back in the early 80s when diesels became big the first time. Then, it seemed that diesel had a fair price reduction from gasoline, and diesel vehicles got substantially better mileage. So even though the initial purchase price was higher, you could make up for it with lower fuel costs. Also, those diesels were simpler (and gas engines required more maintenance, what with ignition systems and carbs) so some argued that a diesel was cheaper to maintain.
Today, the economics are wrong in the U.S. Diesel costs more, the mileage benefit isn’t that great, and the greater complexity of modern diesels (and the much lower maintenance of gas cars) has made a diesel something you buy because you love them, not because it makes economic sense.
My sister and brother in law have owned many diesels. The cars were mostly VWs, the trucks a couple of Ford Powerstrokes (older ones that were decent) and a Dodge Cummins. Also an 05 Jeep . I have watched diesels come and go from the U.S. market for years, particularly with VW. They will be offered for 2 or 3 years, then go away for a few, then back with a new one.
I would consider a diesel in, say, a Club Wagon or an Excursion – in fact, diesel Excursions are really, really expensive in the midwest. For most anything else, I don’t think it would be worth it.
Diesel was cheaper than gas in the US until 1999, when gas prices hit an all-time low against inflation. I remember my senior year of high school, when in northeastern PA, on one competitive corner (three gas stations) regular was $0.79/gal. In 1999! Diesel never fell that far, and it seems to me that from then on, diesel was more.
One thing many people don’t consider – an entire barrel of crude oil can’t be made all into just one product. You can do some shifting using cracking, but for the most part, for a given barrel of crude, you’re going to get a certain amount of various petroleum distillates.
My understanding is that the US and Europe are kind of symbiotic this way. If they switched mostly to gas, or we mostly to diesel, they’d have way too much demand for one product and a glut of the other.
You’re right on the economics—I asked about the Mazda6 diesel at the auto show and almost the first thing out of the salesman’s mouth was, “So, you drive over 30,000 miles a year?” I’d been sucked into all the online hype about diesels being great in cities due to low-end torque, but living in a city I also only drive about 1/5 that.
Mazda’s strategy seems to be two-fold: market it as a hybrid alternative for people with long highway commutes (where the diesel premium will pay for itself) or as a performance alternative for those who miss the V6 (what I currently drive—I like having the extra power but don’t really need it, so I’m guessing Mazda’s going to think people like me will make the same choice, but based solely on torque). I haven’t driven one so I can’t say anything about how well I think they meet those criteria, but at this point I’d rather have a higher-horsepower gas engine or move down to next-gen a 3 equipped with the 6’s four-cylinder.
I drove a Peugeot diesel rental 5008 in England recently. Can’t say anything about reliability or servicing, but it was a real pleasure to drive. Solid acceleration, and effortlessly ate up motorway miles at 80+. My dad previously owned a Peugeot 306 XRDt, which was the one with the intercooler. With that big heavy engine planted over the front wheels it was a marvellous handling car, and when the turbo kicked in it had neck-snapping acceleration. Great car.
A lot of new cars in Europe, from Focus/Golf size right up to Mercedes “S” Class, are purchased by company fleets, and they have to be diesels because they are taxed on CO2 and gasoline engines just cannot compete
When I travelled with my son to buy a two year old diesel Accord ( Acura TSX to you ) our 260 mile journey back clocked an average of 77 mph and 44 mpg (imperial gallons) which included 100 mph + where possible. A diesel BMW could do better, but you wouldn’t want to be paying for the replacement parts that BMW diesels usually need.
When my wife decided her next car had to be a diesel ( she tends to drive longer journey than I do these days) it had to be a similar diesel Accord because there wasn’t any other recent diesel car I was willing to have in the yard . As diesels have become faster, more economical, more refined and more tax-friendly, they have increasingly used complex technology which costs money to maintain.When my son’s car needed a new clutch ( at about 90k ) the Honda garage told him that in 2 cases out of 3 they had to fit a new flywheel as well – luckily his was OK. A dual mass Accord flywheel is maybe 1000 sterling – 1300 US $ approx.
It’s true, diesels have come a long way in the last years…I still remember the diesel Opel Astra wagon a family friend bought back in 1996…that thing was like a tractor, noisy&rattly, it sucked balls! On the other hand the Peugeot 207 with the 1,6 liters diesel I use to drive it’s a different story: it’s smooth, silent respectably performing and generally gives you a feeling of refinement…but the real problem with diesel engines it’s that they’ve got an extremely narrow power range, they’re torquey but you always have to change gear, and don’t even think to start from still in 2nd ! In short, a torquey gas engine it’s a very different (much more pleasing) engine…
Diesel engines have the biggest difference between actual and EPA fuel economy. The highway is pretty close but actual city is far better than EPA. So if you’re doing the math between hybrid, gas and diesel factor that in.
In general diesels are better for long distance drivers. They are extremely efficient on the highway and have boat loads of turbo torque to make passing a breeze.
City mileage is good too, on par with hybrids. But if you’re doing mostly city the hybrid might be better what with the lower cost of fuel and better availability.
As an enthusiast I would take a diesel over hybrid because they are more fun to drive. Even if you haven’t driven a clean diesel you know by now they don’t smoke, make noise and are very, very fast. I like the BMW diesels for power, Audi for refinement and Mercedes for overall.
The upcoming diesel Chevy Cruze will be a good test of the market potential at a lower price range. Mazda needs to get one in the CX-5 asap, it will be in a segment of one.
I would love to find an older diesel truck for cheap to convert to veg oil (mainly just for kicks). I would not consider buying a new diesel though simply because of the higher cost of the fuel and maintenance here. I am also not a fan of any Volkswagen built after 1978, so my choice in vehicles with a diesel that I could afford would be very limited. I won’t spend BMW or Mercedes money for a diesel sedan, nor would I spend BMW money required for a new diesel Ford or Dodge pickup.
I have an ’06 Jetta TDI which has 73000 miles on it and is used almost exclusively for long trips. If I hold it at 60 and the road is fairly level and windless, it will get an honest 50 miles to the gallon. Price-wise it was equivalent to a Prius, but it is a more substantial vehicle to travel in. I have had no.t signficant issues with it. Recently I meet a gentleman who also had an ’06 TDI; when I disputed his claim that it had 343,000 miles on it, he let me see the odometer. He said he had had no problems with it.
However, on my annual trips to the western United States, I have experienced about 12% lower fuel mileage from the fuel I buy there. I suspect ethenol has crept into the fuel.
We bought a new Touareg TDI last year. So far we love it. Getting 22.7mpg overall average since day 1 with mostly in-town driving here in Colorado. It easily exceeds 30mpg on the highway. My wife loves going almost 600 miles between visiting the gas station. I like the torque. We both like the way it sounds and it vibrates a bit in a way that is sort of relaxing. Drove the regular one as well and didn’t like it nearly as much, when my wife realized that you could not get the Chocolate Brown interior in the gasser that pretty much sealed the decision as she wanted that. It cost more upfront as with most diesels but most of them hold their value better than the equivalent gassers so I figure that will work itself out. I didn’t realize it at first but VW warranties the entire powertrain for 100k miles on the TDI only (on our ’12 at least). The 0% financing they were offering was the icing on the cake and made the overall cost much less than the Audi, BMW, and MB offerings that we were looking at as well.
“Disiesels” I call em.
My car: 2000 New Beetle GLS TDI, bought new in May 2000.
Real world average mpg since new: 52 mpg (I fill up to the neck, expelling all air at the tank vent to ensure a full tank and accurate mpg readings. A 16 foot sea kayak resides on the roof of my car since 2007. Fuel mileage dropped to about 45-50 mpg on interstate highways, but in town, no appreciable loss. Am I happy with my mpg? Without doubt. I can still remember the early years of ownership and being amazed every time I filled up, resetting the trip odometer and filling my little log book of fill ups to compare mpg on various trips. After a while, I just retired the book. The mileage was always consistently the same…..
Issues: One time early in it’s life, the car was towed to the dealer to replace a faulty EGR valve that prevented the car from starting. I’ve had one glow plug wire harness and relay replaced about 9 years ago. 2 sets of glow plugs over the years. Relay 109 failed in the driveway 2 summers ago. Oil changes are about 5-6 thousand miles using initially Mobil 1 Delvac synthetic. These days I have been running Mobil 1 15w40 diesel synthetic bought at the local Auto Zone. During oil changes I would also change the fuel filter and air filter for good measure. These days at each oil change I add about 16 ounces of MotorKote oil additive. Timing belt changes have been at the standard 60k miles. I did the last belt and water pump replacement myself; a pain in the butt in the New Beetle because everything is so jammed tight in there. I had the intake tract cleaned of carbon build up thanks to the VW Crank Case vent system. I’ve since remedied my engine from every clogging it’s arteries again by diverting the crank case vapors overboard into the atmosphere. Politically incorrect? Sure. But the EPA and VW didn’t pay 600 bucks for a mechanic to clean out my intake. I did. So I’ll take the necessary steps to prevent it from happening again. Knock on wood, but that’s it. Not bad for 145 thousand on the clock.
Aside from my headlight lens’s going yellow and my radio antenna base not sending a clean signal to my radio thanks to a dirty ground under the headliner, that has been my diesel experience. I can’t speak for the larger bore diesel engines, but this 1.9 TDI can’t be beat. She has that wonderful clatter of it’s Direct Injection and a little vibration in the steering wheel. I always got a laugh how the Car and Drivers of the world would always indicate in a diesel test if the wheel transmitted vibrations. As if that’s a deal killer. Maybe it is to a gas-o-holic, but for me, I love it. Also enjoyed is catching the turbo whine, as ever so slight it is. But most of all, I enjoy the fuel mileage in a world gone insane with ever escalating fuel costs. So, please keep hating diesels and keep buying those gas engine vehicles. That allows folks like me an easy-in and easy-out experience at the diesel pump down at the local gas station!!! 🙂
One more thing: this past winter I replaced battery #3, along with an ill designed battery top mounted fuse panel and jumper wire to the battery + that was corroded beyond repair, along with a very expensive + cable from the battery to the starter. Oh, and a 4 inch piece of engine wire harness that some local field mouse found tasty!
Now, if only VW USA would see fit to give us an UP! with a 2 or 3 cylinder TDI. I would seriously look into something like that, which, initially was rumored for Europe but as of this writing I believe never was introduced… Can anyone say 100 mpg????
VW XL1 is going into production. Diesel/electric parallel hybrid, 261 mpg, which is better than 1 liter per 100km. Extremely small, aerodynamic, light, bumpy and expensive. Not for the US market, at least not for awhile says Autoblog.
Autoblog first drive here.
That reminds me of the VW 1 Liter car that Piech had built. An inline, 2 seater car with a bubble top greenhouse and fantastic fuel mileage. VW has done it; the question is why aren’t these cars released?
Could they possibly upset the fuel supply issue? All of these 1 liter TDI motors getting 125 mpg would kill the bottom line for the fuel companies, not to mention less federal highway tax money going into the federal coffers.
I believe in the grand scheme, a 120 mpg diesel car would result in diesel going to 5 dollars a gallon and beyond. Anything to maintain oil profits….
Safety standards forbid them in the States.
Over and above that, people have shown over the years that they want larger cars.
The conspiracy model is hard to accept when the profit on gasoline has been demonstrated, repeatedly, to be about nine cents a gallon.
Perhaps, also, the mileage on that experimental thing wasn’t up to expectations. After all motorcycles and scooters – with weight of less than a fifth of a car’s; with two wheels and points of friction, instead of four – is often below 50 mpg. To get a vehicle over 100 mpg, the engine need be tiny, speed slow, and weight ridiculously light.
http://powersports.honda.com/2012/ruckus.aspx
That’s what gets that kind of mileage.
Just Passin Thru, I beg to differ. How else to explain the highest quarterly profits in the history of mankind reported on the quarterly earnings reports from the big oil companies commencing around the time of 2 dollar plus gasoline? Potato chips and soda sold at their Mini-mart? Here’s an interesting article from the Huffington Post about quarterly profits by big oil. I still stand in my belief if Americans as a whole were to embrace super high efficient diesels, big oil would need to raise prices to maintain the profit margins they have grown accustomed to. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/29/gas-prices-your-pain-their-gain_n_855673.html
The Original Volkswagen 1 liter concept was driven by Ferdinand Piech, who wanted a car capable of super high mileage per gallon of diesel. That EX1 is a spin off of the 1 liter concept and is coming out in limited production this year. With hope, one day, we shall see this car available for sale in our show rooms. The mileage it attains is real. I’ve no doubt that VW, Piech and his engineers will see this through. One of my favorite car guys. Driven. Ambitious. Not afraid to take chances. The auto industry needs more folks like him. Here’s some 1 Liter TDI Concept info off of wiki for you:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_1-litre_car
Ah, another TDIClub member!
Ed, I’m not a TDI Club member, just a lurker since 2000 when I bought the New Beetle TDI. Nowhere else will a VW TDI owner find such a wealth of info on how to repair their TDI. Not to mention all those little quirks like the intake tract coking up from the blow by. Or the infamous Relay 109 (mine failed finally after 10 plus years of ownership.
I remember your Car #53 NB was a TDI in past conversation. I’ve had outstanding performance and great fuel economy with mine; not sure if it’s luck or the nature of the motor. I never drove her hard, just normal, with an eye for fuel economy by shifting around 1900 RPM or so. I hope your TDI experience and economy has been as good as mine!
Stay tuned – I’m eventually going to have time to finish a CC on that very topic…
I own a 2nd gen 2008 Prius and my friend has a current gen Jetta TDI Sportwagon (all US versions). His car with 6 speed is far quicker, better handling, roomier and better equipped for about a $5K purchase price premium. For mixed city/highway usage the Prius gets slightly better fuel economy on low-cost regular gas. However, for many open road trips in the mountainous West, the Diesel gets slightly better mileage. The Prius economy plummets in two scenarios: multiple cold start urban driving, and high speed (70+ mph) highway driving with grades. In my opinion it comes to more than just economics. Lower CO2 emissions and potentially longer highway range add value for me. Being limited to German cars with higher prices and questionable long-term reliability, however, are barriers. A Diesel all-wheel-drive RAV4 or CX5 would be very compelling as a replacement for my just-sold Forester Turbo 5-speed.
About a dozen years ago, I took a TDI Jetta for a drive. I loved it, and really wanted it. At that time, I just couldn’t swing the payment. A few years later, I went back and looked at them again, but the prices were getting crazy. The dealer had a year old Jetta TDI with close to 30k on it, and it was the SAME PRICE as a brand new one sitting on the other side of the building!
Today, for some reason a Jetta TDI wagon really appeals to me, but one, VW reliability, two, the cost, and three, they don’t want to offer them with the option combos I would want. Figures…
The cost of maintaining a modern diesel is not much different from maintaining a similar gasoline-powered vehicle. The glow plugs are ready to go in 2 seconds. Therefore I don’t understand why someone would say diesels are more fuss. Most of your fill ups will be in your own town and it’s not likely you will forget where the diesel stations are. On the road it’s a simple matter of using the GPS or your smart phone to find the stations. Of course with the awesome range you will be making fewer stops.
As for Americans not being ready for diesels that’s a big dose of conventional wisdom. They have been buying hybrids for a while now and the diesel costs/benefits are comparable for the average driver, and in favor of diesel for high mile drivers.
Diesel fuel is easier to refine than gasoline. The reason it costs more than gas in the US (it’s less than gas in Europe due to lower government tax) is supply and demand. Our refineries are set up to crack crude oil into gas and diesel at a fixed ratio. We can’t deviate much from that which means a fixed supply. In Europe the refineries are set up to maximize diesel production.
Mazda and GM have announced their diesel plans for later this year. VAG is expanding, not curtaining, their offerings. Sergio has hinted Chrysler can be ready in two years from the Dart all the way up to the 300.
Again don’t do your calculation based on EPA label fuel economy. Highway and especially city are way understated for diesel as supported by the comments in this thread.
Yeah, you are right about the glow plugs. On our Touareg, you get in, put your foot on the brake, twist the “key”-thingy, release it immediately and while you are fiddling with the seatbelt, it pauses for a beat, then fires right up. Even at 10F after sitting in the ski area all day. Nothing like the old days.
And the range is awesome, 25gallon tank, if all highway, range can easily be over 700 miles. You will be stopping before the car needs to…
Don’t a lot of larger-engined diesels need periodic refills of diesel exhaust fluid for the exhaust-injection system (necessary to meet U.S. NOx standards)? I assume what the dealer charges for that is pretty hefty and while I suppose you might be able to get it more cheaply elsewhere, it seems like an additional hassle.
The urea type fluid is a pretty insignificant cost in the scheme of things now most semi’s use it, and the tank usually lasts longer than the service interval
Well, the cost is one thing, but it’s also just an additional hassle: something else to keep track of, and in ways that don’t necessarily line up with other service intervals. So, you either have to buy some of the fluid yourself and figure out an appropriate place to store it between additions or pay a markup to have someone else do it.
One of the major issues for the old Oldsmobile Jetfire turbocharged V-8 was that it used water-alcohol injection to avoid knock under boost. It worked, but it was another fluid reservoir to keep topped up at irregular intervals, so a lot of people didn’t bother. When the tank was empty, a switch effectively disabled the turbo by locking the wastegate open, so there was no more boost. This strikes me as a comparable situation; the more inconvenient it is to maintain something, the less likely it’ll be done properly.
In the case of the Urea injection vehicles you can’t forget to add the fluid, most will warn you when you are getting low and all will reduce power output significantly, like just enough to get you to the side of the road, and eventually shut down when the DEF is depleted.
DEF is pretty commonly available and not that expensive. Truck stops always have it many in pumps but also in a range of sizes. It is also available at most auto parts stores and even Walmart. Many of the automotive systems use a tank that should provide for refiling at every oil change, even if the service interval is seriously differed, and filling it at oil change intervals is considered a standard part of the oil change procedure. .
I have considered it several times and my answer is always no. The numbers just do not add up. The extra cost of the diesel to begin with, combined with the extra cost of the fuel and maintenance, simply do not add up. That and you’ll be tied a VW dealer, which are the worst pond-scum one can imagine.
We are seeing quite a few diesel SUVs from Germany in these parts, driven by wealthy Chinese housewives. Seems to me that CAFE laws are making more of these cars appear on the lot and the lessees don’t know the difference anyway, since allthey do is pick the kids up and park at the mall with them.
I would absolutely buy a diesel, new or used. I’d also buy a hybrid, or a CNG-powered car, or a pure EV, and even a steam car – all from any continent and manufacturer… but I’m interested in all of these things whether they make good financial sense or not, and most of the time they don’t. Beyond that, however, I have always been intrigued by diesels in particular and thinking about it now it’s kind of surprising that I haven’t owned one.
In fact, I’ve only ever driven one diesel, an early and well-broken-in W126 that I took on a roadtrip through the Hudson Valley and Catskill Mountains. I fell in love with that car the moment I slid behind the driver’s seat and only liked it more as the miles racked up. For a big car with something like 120HP, the acceleration was as lazy as you would expect… but it had no problem coping with the steep grades in the mountains, even with the A/C on, three passengers and a trunk full of luggage. The only time you really knew it was a diesel (and not just a slow car) was standing on the outside, which I know modern diesels have improved upon greatly. I was checking out a co-workers’ 2013 Jetta TDI a few months back and was amazed at how quiet it was.
When I asked him how he liked it and why he bought the diesel he gave me the usual answer of “it gets good mileage”, but he was also very eager to pop the hood and talk about all the cool little bits and pieces that made it work. That’s something people generally don’t do anymore, even with performance cars or hybrids that have fascinating propulsion systems. I think that’s really where the appeal is for them in the US. It’s different, it’s cool and it does work well – despite the fact that it makes zero sense financially with the purchase price and fuel cost being higher. I would say that the hi-po BMW and Audi diesels serve (or served?) a purpose for the same reason, even if they are practicality conundrums. They opened a lot of eyes, mine included, despite not directly translating into big sales figures.
Nice point about fascinating propulsion, it’s true. I still show people through how my hybrid works. Got lots of practice back in 2000, when nobody’d ever seen or heard of one, lots of people wanted to see how it worked. It’s different, it’s cool and it works very well. That’s a big part of the hybrid’s appeal to me, as much as the actual gas mileage and low CO2, maybe even a bit more.
The current Mercedes S-class diesel is astonishingly quiet. I had one drive past me 6 feet away, and did not realise it was a diesel until I saw the rear badge.
Part of the problem is that most diesel equipped passenger vehicles (not trucks) that offer diesels are ugly as hell. The only thing on the market outside of a truck that isn’t is the G series Mercedes.
Another thing is when you get up into M-B and BMW new car money, most of those buyers in the US the cost of ownership of a car is less of a concern. When you are grossing $8,000K a month the extra cost of $200 a month for gas versus diesel is transparent. So for many of those vehicles it may be more of a status symbol or psychological factor than the balance sheet. For trucks, diesel efficiency is only a portion of the equation while the brute strength of the diesel is the primary factor. So that leaves small and midsize cars where diesels can be sold primarily on total cost of ownership savings but the potential profit margins on those cars is small so its a catch-22.
Finally, most of the people that have commented here on ownership of diesels can be considered “learned” individuals when it comes to diesels. The problem is is that most of the driving public is not and the KISS principle applies.
Sadly, I would not touch most of the new diesels out there today because they seem to have a lot of expensive issues related to the injection system or emissions controls. I am hopeful for the VM Motori V6 turbodiesel that is going in the Jeep Grand Cherokee and Dodge RAM1500 pickups. By the time I need to replace my 1994 Cummins there should be enough of those in service to know what kind of problems they have, and some used ones on the market. Failing that I would probably buy another used Dodge pickup with the Cummins, just not another standard cab.
I’d suggest that comparing the E350 with the gas V6 to the E350 Bluetec with the oil burner under the hood is not the right comparison for the E-Class cars. When I bought my 2008 E320 Bluetec, I drove the gas E350 and the E550 in comparison. The diesel drives more like the E550 than the E350, so as far as comparing economy numbers I’d suggest the Bluetec should be compared to the E550, or perhaps adjusted to fall somewhere in the middle.
I’ve also owned a 1987 300D Turbo, a 2003 Jetta Wagon TDI and a 2000 Golf TDI, all of which were relatively trouble-free, certainly on par with the Hondas and Nissans I’ve owned. Parts weren’t substantially more expensive than for any modern, complex car. The TDIs routinely returned better than 45 MPG, and were downright fun to drive after ECU tuning and a few other relatively inexpensive go fast bits.
Would I buy another diesel? Sure. That said, the last TDI was replaced with a Volt, as it is a better fit for my 25 mile commute.
If you go back to circa-2005, the E320 vs. E320 CDi makes a really interesting comparison… the gas engine was rated 20/26 (and required 93-octane) while the diesel yielded 23/33 and you only lost 19HP compared to the V6.
I’d absolutely buy a diesel – and I have put my money where my mouth is for over a decade now! Through the 90s I drove a diesel Ford Trader truck and a diesel Toyota Hiace van for my employers. They were uncivilised but reliable, tough and very economical.
Over the last 10 years I’ve driven JDM Nissan Laurel sedans with the factory RD28 2.8L 6-cylinder diesel. They’re old-technology, so, despite a 5,400rpm redline, lack power (especially for a 2.8L six!). But they make up for that by being very economical for the larger size of the car, and smooth and quiet for a diesel (I’m assuming the smoothness comes from being a straight-6, which as I understand it is inherently a balanced engine layout).
My first Laurel, a C33, was a manual transmission and would do 1,000km per 65L tank. My current Laurel, a C35, is auto. I was initially concerned how it would go with the RD28, but their respective characteristics combine well. With 311,000km on the odometer, it’s still a responsive, smooth and quiet engine – and over the last 3 years has averaged 8 L/100km (and I don’t drive it like a grandma!). I drove a workmate’s BMW 1-Series diesel last year, and was shocked how coarse and noisy it was compared with the RD28. Very poor, but had loads of grunt though…
What to replace it with? Well I want another 6-cylinder RWD diesel, but a more modern engine design. Nissan does a lovely 3.0L V6 diesel in the Euro-market Infiniti M30D, but there’s only one for sale new here, and it’s NZ$95K… And my budget would be about 10% of that, so I’m thinking used and around 7-10 years old. So that leaves Mercedes and BMW. Or ideally an S-Type Jag with the 2.7TD, but they’re still too dear used. But regardless, I’ll buy another diesel because it means I can get a large car without large car running costs.
LPG and it’s clean!
Actually, our family car when I was learning to drive in 1989 was an LPG Ford Sierra, so I can say I’ve experienced LPG too! It was mighty fuel efficient; only problem was restarting it when hot.
Ford and Holden offer factory-LPG Falcons and Commodores here in NZ – Ford has done for a couple decades now and it helped them win the lion’s share of the taxi market for years. Either dual petrol-LPG or dedicated LPG fitments are available aftermarket too. The main problem with LPG now is only one of NZ’s main fuel station chains offers LPG, so range anxiety can be a concern. And it’s NZ 10c/L dearer than diesel (approx. $1.50 per litre vs $1.40). But there are a lot of plush 5-10 year old ex-corporate cab Ford Fairlanes on the used market with LPG, and all very tempting and cheap…!
I’ve only had experience with a few modern diesels but they are great when they are running well, loads of torque if not actual power and excellent fuel economy. I did a trip around the UK 4 years ago, over 3000 miles we averaged 55mpg Imperial or about 45 US, over everything from driving around small villages, a few cities, C-roads where you often have to stop to let an oncoming car pass, and 90mph motorway cruising.
On the other hand modern common-rail injection is a hugely expensive when replacement parts are needed, and given injection pressures of 20,000psi or more I can’t see this improving too much, there is plenty of manufacturing volume already. There is also the issue of particulate emissions that are carcinogenic – hence dingledave’s comment of disiesel.
Back in the 1990s when I was part of a test mule team with LPG cars, we went to Europe for 10 days to drive different dual fuel cars gasoline and LPG. It was an experience, and a pleasant one at that. I drove a duel fuel Volvo for a whole and aside from a momentary hesitation, flipping the switch from gasoline to LPG was pretty seamless. The main difference between LPG and gasoline driving is that gasoline powered cars will drive normal until the fuel runs out and then just quit. When the tank on the LPG starts to get low, the energy efficiency starts to drop dramatically, the car does not simply quit but starts to get slower and slower to the point where you can’t get up to 40MPH. LPG is so cheap and building a duel fuel car is much easier and cheaper than running diesel or hybrids I prefer that over these other methods. You can still run gasoline as you would otherwise at your leisure. It seems to be more like a win win situation. Of course the main problem in the US is the infrastructure for filling up. Diesel, while not as prevalent as gasoline, of course, is distributed widely because of its use in trucks and commercial vehicles.
LPG only has about 75% of the BTU content of gasoline, so a typical engine converter to dual-fuel would have poorer fuel economy when running on LPG. However, LPG has higher octane rating (104+) than gasoline, so it could be run at higher compression ratio to produce more usable work.
With sufficient LPG refueling infrastructure, one could build a dedicated LPG engine at maybe 13:1 CR, but this infrastructure certainly doesn’t exist in North America at least. With the technologies available today however, a purpose-built dual-fuel engine should be feasible, with forced induction (turbo/supercharger) and/or VVT to vary the effective CR based on operating mode. I remember a European manufacturer (SAAB I think) testing a prototype like this about 5 years ago, but I don’t know if anything came of it.
Here’s an idea for natural-gas-powered cars. Let’s use an existing infrastructure, the electric grid.
I used to have a single-fuel LPG car for work, economy was worse than normal as it only had the compression ratio bumped from 9.7 to 10.3:1. Power was down 45hp, but in the real world you only noticed the difference at high rpm (say over 4000rpm) which was not used in normal driving. This was still with an old venturi-mixer style system, the new liquid-phase injection cars have 12.0:1 compression and more power than the normal engine. I haven’t had the chance to drive one of the newer cars yet unfortunately.
The tank held roughly 30 USgal however, so range was still very good, although if stretched as I did once (two service stations I could use the fuel card at had closed) the phrase “range anxiety” comes into play – if you run out, you can’t go get a tin of LPG to pour into the tank!
A Euro-spec diesel-powered Honda Civic wagon recently achieved 84 mpg (US) on an 8400 mile drive through the EU. Pretty amazing….
http://jalopnik.com/this-100-mpg-honda-is-the-worlds-most-efficient-wagon-1716193162