(Niedermeyer the younger has been busy with a number of projects since leaving TTAC almost two years ago. But TTAC alums inevitably can’t stay totally away from writing about the automotive scene one way or another, so he’s now also partnered with that other former TTAC-er Bertel Schmitt on a new site, Daily Kanban. Edward has written a thoughtful commentary on one of the biggest trends and most-written about subjects in recent years, the apparent apathy towards cars in the younger generation):
Of all the megatrends bearing down on the auto industry, the tidal wave of apparent youth apathy towards cars is perhaps the most troubling. In any case, it’s one of the most discussed topics among both mainstream automotive reporters and a younger generation of car bloggers. But, as one might expect in any generational discussion, opinions about the roots and direction of the trend towards youthful carlessness are sharply divided along these lines, with the older reporters insisting that young people are “losing interest” in cars and the younger bloggers insisting the trend is entirely the product of a tough economic environment for young people.
I’ve been following this topic since 2009, I’ve watched these battle lines be drawn, and so far the discussion is stagnating into the kind of blame-game trench warfare that seems to take hold of all contemporary public debates. But while the generations battle over whether the coming carlessness can be blamed on the digitized fecklessness of Millenials or the Boomers’ irresponsible economic management, picking ones way through the debate’s no-mans-land and into the wider world grants a more nuanced view the situation.
What? Do I now have to consult THREE auto websites??? I don’t have time!
But I may have to try…
What I DID find interesting is that under the “About” heading on Kanban, never does Bertel mention TTAC and his time there in his bio!
I suppose I can’t blame him, for TTAC never seemed his cup of tea. Handling an interactive blog like that isn’t for everyone, that’s for sure!
Anyway, good to see you in print again, Ed. Welcome!
Ed makes some good points on this article. As a Twitter neophyte, I follow 3 people, and Ed is one of them. (And 4 people follow me. Don’t ask how many are family.)
The modern car is fantastic compared to what they were in past ages. However, they are also quite expensive to buy and to maintain, especially as they get older. I can see how hipsters in some of the bigger cities have gravitated towards Falcons and the like.
Here in the midwest where we have rural poor people (who are the opposite of hipsters), old pickups are in vogue. Mostly, I think, because they are what American cars (say from the 60s and 70s) were as they aged – cheap to buy, cheap to fix and fairly easy to fix if you were inclined to do it yourself.
One area where motorcycles have the advantage over cars is that bikes do not have to deal with CAFE or with a lot of safety regs. Bikes can slim down and simplify easier than cars can. It would never be legal to make another Dodge Dart (the real one) or Volvo 240.
I am concerned all the former TTAC people will turn this into more of a political website than an automotive one. I don’t really care to hear crazy rants and conspiracy theories about subjects only remotely connected to old cars
Relax; this is a link to the Daily Kanban. There’s no conspiracy to force you to go there.
+1 to Don.
Honestly I had no idea Bdrtel had left TTAC, since I still haven’t been back there since the kerfuffle that sent Steve Lang here briefly. Let’s not go there please!
What ever happened to Mr. Lang and his auction posts? He was here for a while, but then disappeared; I’ve yet to see his series resurface elsewhere.
+1 I thoroughly enjoyed his contributions here & miss them. I hope he didn’t get roughed up by some Copart Auctioneers or something…
He’s back at TTAC.
Nooooooooo!!!
I clicked, checked it out, and won’t be back. It’s the same crap that sent TTAC down the tubes. Best of luck with that Edward.
I didn’t even bother once I saw that petty jerk Schmitt was involved.
FWIW, TTAC is once again a pretty good site since its re-boot. It and “CC” are the only car sites worth my time, and it seems I spend more time on here, lately, whether I comment or not.
Thanks for the post and the kind words! We have decided to not host comments at the Daily Kanban for a wide variety of reasons, so it’s always nice to get some feedback elsewhere… especially when “elsewhere” means “most of the guys who kept me honest when I was getting started in this car writing thing.” Or, in the case of my dad, “the guy without whom I would never have written about cars.”
Without going to the link (I probably will later), could it be that nothing built today has enough soul/character/aesthetics to warrant enthusiasm for? If I was born in 2000 or after, “old cars” to me would be built back in the 1990’s. Cars today look more and more alike, sound alike, are usually gray, black, white, or taupe, and usually work all the time.
How many childhood memories “stick” when today’s cars usually have some sort of crazy entertainment setup that insulate young ones from the real world? I was three or four & didn’t watch mind-numbing cartoons on headrest DVD players. I sat in the back seat & took in my surroundings, inside and outside of the car which of course sparked my curiosity…”how does this work?” “Where are headlights on that car?” etc.
I’m a 1971 model & grew up near Chicago surrounded by 1960s & 1970s model domestic stuff. My fascination with cars started by the age of three — I could not get enough! Every trip in the car introduced me to SOMETHING different.
My father dragged me to a junkyard when I was five which activated my crazy junkyard gene…this was because your everyday Joe could go to the junkyard, buy parts, and do minor repairs himself back then. How many kids have set foot inside a junkyard today? Probably few….when today’s cars break, they get towed to the dealer or get thrown away or traded on a newer shinier model.
I’m not blaming today’s youth by any means…they’re just a product of today’s society. I probably wouldn’t be interested in cars had I been born twenty years later either.
+1 If I had been a kid in the 1990s, I doubt that riding around in a silver Camry would have registered any more than reaching into the brushed stainless fridge in the kitchen. There to do a job and no more, and no reason to want one except at the most functional level.
I grew up in 1990s Chicago suburbia, with about as interesting of cars around me as the contemporary Hertz parking lot would have had. My parents had a few CC worthy cars when I was a kid, like my Mom’s 85 Jetta GL, my Dad’s old Saab and his Audi 100, but those weren’t exactly exciting to me and certainly don’t explain why I love cars that I do. 40s-early 70s American iron is to me far far more appealing than anything that I grew up around. The notion that someone’s interests in cars is rooted solely with nostalgic childhood memories is a bunk generalization. It’s the equivalent of saying nobody under 30 prefers Classic Rock to whatever tripe is popular now(or the tripe I grew up with. I was listening to 70s AC/DC when everyone else was into Insynk).
Maybe It’s that parental rebellion thing. My parents largely gravitated to European and Japanese makes in the 80s afterall, but then again I also had a good relationship with my parents, even as a teenager. Plus the same cars I lusted over at age 5, I lusted over at age 15, and still l still lust over the same stuff at age 25.
You make me wonder if car enthusiasm is somehow rooted in our DNA. I love cars, and always did from a very early age, as did my father, as does my son. So I agree that my interest in cars was just “there” for me, and not contingent on what I rode around in. My point was more around the environment for encouraging that enthusiasm. I grew up in the “malaise era” of the 1970s and 1980s, yet that didn’t dampen my passion. The majority of boys I grew up with knew a good amount about cars, even if we lamented that they weren’t as good “as they used to be.” Most of all, though, there was still a lot of “general market” interest in cars then, whereas today that seems to have shifted away onto other consumer goods, like digital devices to name one example. Announcements by Apple or Samsung get huge coverage and the kids know all about them. Can the same be said for an announcement from Ford or Honda? Contrast that with when GM introduced the X-cars in 1980–it was a huge event (though set false expectations that hastened the downfall of a giant). Fast forward to 2013, when most my 11-year-old son’s friends know absolutely nothing about cars (except for which ones are expensive). They seemingly have no interest in spotting cars, and say things like “oh yeah, cars are all alike.” And in so many way, these kids are right–modern cars are remarkably similar, typically competent and in many ways quite bland. Not really worth discussing or arguing over. This is so different than it was with my friends and I, when there were “good” cars and “terrible” cars and where endlessly debating which cars we loved or hated was just part of our group culture (my son’s buddies now passionately debate iOS versus Android). So today there really isn’t an automotive environment for my son (besides doing “car things” with me) to elevate his interest. Without that level exposure and passion, I think it becomes harder and harder to keep the majority of folks fired up about cars (those of us on this site I think are the permanent exception).
Please do not take my comment as “bunk generalization”. Did you not read that I phrased it as a question? Dude, I can only speak from my personal experiences and get pretty pissed off when what I say is labeled as something other than what it is.
Nostalgia played a big part in my rather obsessive love of old cars.
I didn’t mean to offend, and I wasn’t dismissing your experiences. I was only countering that my own passion for cars managed to blossom from a completely different landscape, being roughly twenty years after your own with many more accessible interests besides cars to choose from. Really, your memories pretty much parallel mine with the exception of timeframe and that’s really what my post was about.
Bunk generalisation was a bit harsh and I must admit I was probably a bit fired up from reading the TTAC links + comments as I posted(I should know better). All I was trying to say is that there’s something deeper than just environment. Afterall, when you’re fascination starts at the age of three there has to be more fueling it than nostalgia at that point.
I’m a 79 model and like you grew up around the same era of cars and some from the 80’s. My grandfather had an old Econoline van and use to drag me too a junkyard (I still frequented until it was closed a few years back) and a huge surplus scrapyard and that along with watching him and helping (as much as a tot could) are what started my obsession.
With fewer actual craftsmen and fewer browsable junkyards its a different time and harder to do hands on learning.
Perhaps I’m too jaded, being in my 40s, but I’d think another major turnoff to vehicle ownership would be the whole buying experience. Other than politicians, I don’t think
I trust any group less than people marketing new and/or pre-owned cars. From the manufacturers to the dealers, the industry draws so many charlatans amongst the decent individuals. I don’t listen to radio anymore. Car ads being a big reason. Offering 96 month financing??? Or loan shark credit to students. That speaks volumes to me. And not in the right way. I see me pursuing private, pre-owned car purchasing well into the future.
The buying experience today is nothing compared to what it was like during the “glory days” of the 1950s and 1960s. Cars didn’t even have factory window stickers (with standard list prices for the car and any options) until the 1958 model year. With the internet and publications such as Consumer Reports, a buyer can at least arm him- or herself with some knowledge.
Most people who get a raw deal today either didn’t do their homework before visiting the dealer, or shouldn’t have bought a brand-new car in the first place.
“The good old days” weren’t really that good when it came to buying a new car.
You’re so very right, it is necessary to use all the tools available today to be informed. That’s why competition has been so healthy for the industry.
Don’t forget the 90 day warranty that was still common in the 1950s.
I am sure the buying experience sucked in the 1950s and 1960s, and I think it still does today. The difference to me is that back then there was so much excitement, interest and energy devoted to new cars, people tolerated a lot of issues in order to get their wheels. A car was truly more of a personal expression and ticket to freedom back then. Without the same level of magic today, the buying experience seems much less tolerable. Plus so many other categories have redefined the buying experience for the better, that the car purchase process seems more of a horrible relic than ever. And easy to see why people would prefer to simply just stay away if possible.
In a word cars have become too perfect, the most mainstream of them *cough* CamCord* have become soul-sucking boredomobiles with the personality of a trash compacter. And don’t get me started on wrenching on them… I don’t know what’s harder, finding Waldo or which mass under a modern car’s hood is the engine. I love driving my less-than-perfect old V8 Fairmont as a daily driver, she’s got some creacks and groans but she’s also got CHARACTER!!!
When the Tata Nano launched, I was very interested to see how it would do, as it was the first time in many, many years any manufacturer tried to do a super low-cost, very basic car. Designed to bring affordable transportation to the masses of India, it has … flopped. The company is in the process of adding features and content to bring it more in line with actual market expectations. Seems that the buyers in India think that if they can get enough money together for a car, then they are going to go all the way and get a “real” car from a “real” brand. Makes me wonder if we are exiting the era of “mass market” privately owned transportation, and returning to the mindset that existed at the dawn of the automotive age, when having your own new car was much more of a luxury item, while basic transportation needs were handled by something much more plebeian: then, your feet, a train or a horse; today public transit, a used vehicle or a Zipcar.
As much as transportation, cars have always been status symbols.
I think if more young people felt they had more opportunity coming out of this bad recession, they might better aspire to the American dream in a 1950s or 1960s context. If a shiny new car was within their reach. I think if there was greater opportunity at this time, you’d see more demand. Cars still offer freedom and mobility. I’m not sure if it’s a long term demographic change.
I was born in 57 the middle child,2 years younger than my brother,2 years older than my sister.My parents had a lot of the big English Fords being tall.Both sets of Grandparents lived near to a large USAF base so I saw a lot of American cars,we also went on holiday to America and Canada as well.I grew up a car mad tomboy,my brothers a car fan but bikes come first with him.Dad bought 2 Falcons,an Australian Valiant and a Dart all plain vanilla misers specials with 6 cylinder enginesCars from the 50s could still be seen in regular use.I like American cars of the golden age 1955 to 1970ish,the big English Fords and Vauxhalls and I like what I’ve seen of Aussie iron.
My nephews and nieces have no interest in even learning to drive,though number 2 niece is a Goth and would like a black 57 Chevy Nomad
Black Nomad for the Goth Niece, eh? That might work. She could dye her hair and paint her nails to match, if she hasn’t done that already…
She’s a red head and staying red being a fan of Epica and Delain but often has black nails,she’s a liking for fins n chrome 50s wagons the Nomad being her current favourite.I think black wagons are a bit to funereal for me
She’d be Ultra-Goth rolling around in one of these:
One thing I never hear brought up in this topic, that in my opinion plays a large roll, is how expensive it is to insure a vehicle for younger drivers. Both my sister and I paid outrageous premiums the first few years we drove, and neither of us had any traffic violations on our records. I’m fortunate enough to come from a family that could afford to buy new vehicles when their kids hit driving age, and we’d share that car with mom until 18. Because of that, insurance was on our parent’s policy. When I paid off my car at 18 and transferred the title, I nearly died when I got quotes for insurance. I hunted like crazy for the best deal I could find, which turned out to be $303 per month, NO collision coverage (this was over 10 years ago)… I remember it wasn’t until I was 22 did my monthly rate go below $200. Looking back, I have no idea how I was able to afford it. Because of this, my parents did things differently for my sister and kept themselves attached to her policy. She’s 21 now and her monthly rate as of this summer was in the $250 range. I can only imagine what it would be if she were on her own policy.
The “no car” schtick may well work for kids (kids!? I was one not so long ago, at least in my own mind…) in big cities but in non-metropolitan areas with their own ‘burbs, you’re toast if you rely on mass transit. Chicago? NYC? DC? Sure, no problem. Davenport, Iowa? Ah ha ha ha ha…
How many young people want to have a car but still don’t want to *need* a car? The kids who grew up in the ‘burbs also grew up hearing their parents complain about car-based commutes…
Great article there Edward, and I like your points, and what Honda is doing with their motorbikes, by building an entry level bike that is fast enough for highway use, but not overkill, and reduced expensive items that drive up costs, and they found a sweet spot in bikes of fun for a very reasonable price. As you point out, the same thing is missing from many cars today.
I would say the Fiat 500 comes close, though it’s marketed (and built) as a premium car, so even the base Pop is quite loaded, thus the base price is now closer 17K, or so, which means even it’s out of reach of most younger buyers, unless they can get a screaming lease deal whereby the car can be had for $99/Mo.
I DO think manufacturers are hurting themselves by pricing their products out of reach for many, then have to put cash on the hood to entice the younger buyers, or those on modest budgets, which is why Mazda brought over the 2, Ford brings in the Fiesta (though to be fair, it’s also a premium vehicle, but it’s base models are more reasonably priced than some), or you go to more boring and buy a Versa, or Yaris, and they go for considerably less, though even they may be more than what many can afford.
All that said, we have a bad job market that does not favor the young graduate, nor does college tuition help matters when they keep out pacing the cost of living index, so all that puts a crimp on any one who’s young, but of car buying age to be able to BUY one. All the newer model cars I see often are those whom are in their thirties, and manage to be in decent paying jobs, and then they buy, and probably about half of them lease if new.
In the end, those who insist on not even GETTING their driver’s licenses may be dealing in denial of how this can affect their chances of getting anywhere in a reasonable time frame, let alone go anywhere, period, or come off as selfish by relying on others to haul them around when they live where public transportation is limited (or if it exists at all), and it can also affect how employers view them when it comes to getting to and from work reliably, public transportation notwithstanding.
But you are right in that many people have their points, but refuse to see anything BUT their point(s), and refuse to acknowledge the other side, and thus the argument is just that, an argument, rather than a discussion towards a common answer.
I should say that I have nieces and nephews that range from their early 30’s, down to 16, and they ALL drive, as far as I know.
My youngest niece got her license recently, or will shortly and will have a car to drive. My late mother’s 2004 Dodge Stratus that my sister and her husband bought from her estate last year. Part of it is they live in a small town and public transit is sparse due to the fact that it shares the transit system with King County (Metro), and it’s a ways to the next nearest town, and they don’t live IN town, but outside it by a few miles in an old farmhouse.
I think it’s more basic. Over tbe last 30 years ago parents have become ever more overprotective. Kids have been taught that driving is something to be afraid of, just like the bogeymen at the park. Back in my day (did I really just say that?) we went miles away on our bikes as soon as we could ride. Now my wife is afraid to let our 5’8″ 8th grader ride half a mile to school, let alone another quarter mile to get a milkshake. WRT driving, I watched it firsthand with my nephew’s even more overprotective mom; he was much happier to have her drive him all through high school, and she didn’t discourage it. (Once be did get his license he totalled two cars in totally stupid ways – not hooning stupid but clueless stupid. Luckily I encouraged my older son to do stuff independently (Scouts is great for that). He wanted his license immediately at 15 1/2 and insisted on a manual transmission for his first car.
Certainly seen this among my own peers. Growing up in the 90s-early 00s in a small town, a car was a total necessity. Still, even then, I noticed that people were speaking less about them and more comparing what by then were simply other appliances–big TVs, new computers (we weren’t really to smart phones or even near universal cell use at the time). Cars by then had already lost much of their distinctive brand-to-brand flavor, what you noticed was who had the really big SUVs.
As the generation just ahead of the Milennials, I can see us going either way. Those who have bought the reliable, predictable, grey cloth interior appliance style cars since Camcords became today’s family Chevrolet rarely talk about cars. Those who themselves elected to branch out into more interesting things, be they sports cars, muscle cars, land yachts; they are more into it. They got into it for whatever reason and so they still find romance and excitement in cars even if they don’t need one. Even if they live in Manhattan.
I’m not really a gear head or a mechanic and can’t do more than simple work on my car–or in many cases work too many hours or just don’t want to do it. I just happened to be enamored from a young age with my grandfather’s style…from his cars to his music, to his cocktails. I was just old enough (I’m just a few years younger than Tom Klockau) to have full memory of most of the 80s which was really a transition era from the old guard to the new in so many ways. The end of (for example) rotary phones, typewriters, wooden racquets, new Sinatra albums, and being unreachable on vacation. The beginning of most of the aspects of today’s world: computers, rap music, business casual, cell phones, gym memberships, free agency, cable and satellite, 24-7. The Panther and B/C Cars that hung around during that time, and which my grandfather drove, were–although downsized and detuned–still big, square, chromey holdovers from that prior age and generation’s reign that had outlasted the other aspects that had been replaced, and I was drawn to them along with that age right away. To me there is a sort of romance in the things that became obsolete and were lost during that time; they were still ‘the way things were’ when I was born but almost immediately after my appearance the world started shifting away from those norms (admittedly a process that had begun two decades before but really picked up speed in the 80s once the older generation finally retired and handed over directorships, presidencies, etc.
Had I not been the only grandchild, had my parents been more conventional and perhaps more successful in my eyes than their parents, had I had less exposure to the older generation, perhaps I too would be a Camcord owner like mom and dad, and be more concerned with comparing iPhones and Androids. Instead, I was drawn to the past and right away to cars that seemed to carry that past forward into a time that was otherwise changing greatly.
I suspect that the earlier generations’ alleged level of devotion to cars is somewhat exaggerated in the minds of car fans. It’s another version of the “good old days” syndrome, in which the old grass was always greener and the best days are behind us.
Part of the observation may be legitimate, though. Cars used to be less reliable and required more routine maintenance. That encouraged a subset of people to learn enough about cars in order to keep them running. That, in turn, should have cultivated a level of commitment among at least some of them, which they may not have had the car required less effort.
In other words, it’s easier to become devoted to something if you invest some personal attention into it. Detachment encourages apathy, and during this era of outsourcing, what little attention is required to keep a car moving or washed is often assigned to someone else.. A tinkerer with a tool box and detailing kit is more likely to form a bond with his or her car than someone who just fills the fuel tank and complains about the price of gas.
Agreed.
No, I agree with Dynamic88 below – everyone had their license by 17, whether or not they were a motorhead or even had frequent access to a car. Among the 6 or so boys in my son’s Scout troop who are old enough to drive, he is the only one with a license. Even those with serious girlfriends are still having dad shuttle them around.(WTF?) That was definitely not the case when I was his age – all of us had our licenses by junior year.
And they weren’t remotely car guys either. None of them knew squat about cars or really bonded with them – I remember way more about their first cars than they do.
Taking off on Pch101s point,
My generation’s devotion to cars may be exaggerated, but not our devotion to driving. Even the girls were down at the DMV the morning of their 16th birthday. I can’t speak to kids growing up in Manhattan, but in the Midwest everyone wanted their license ASAP.
I see in my nieces and nephews an apathy about getting their license. They do get their driver’s license, usually still before they graduate from HS, but they take their sweet time about it. The generational difference is hard to ignore.
I don’t have any strong opinion about the causes, but I will say that technology doesn’t strike me right off as the problem. These kids who wait until they are 17 and 1/2 to get their license can build and program computers. It’s not as if they don’t have technical skills, and they are the kinds of skills applicable to modern cars.
I found it interesting that the analysis seems to ignore the used car market. The analogy being drawn is between the new motorcycle market and the new car market. I can tell you my generation never considered the possibility of a new vehicle either in HS or fresh out of college. We figured our first new car would come along in our 30s, and generally, it did, and not before.
Yet used cars today have more life left in them than in my day. When I was a teen few cars made it to 100K miles. Today few don’t.
So, I don’t know what the causes are, but I do know kids are waiting longer to get their license, and they don’t seem keen on buying an old jalopy so they have something to get around in.
Good point about used cars. The flip side to that is some 20-something folks I know seem to much more easily gravitate toward new cars than would make sense to me given their relatively low incomes. One person noted that it was easier getting financing for a new car than a used one.
I never understood why companies like Scion market new cars to teens and twenty something’s when most of them end up with a used Honda Civic with a burned out taillight and exhaust hanging by a coat hanger.
That being said, many people are scared to buy a used car from places from Craigslist because they are scared of being ripped off. When in reality a dealer is just as likely to rip you off. I’ve known people who where paying around 30% interest on a car loan and thinking they were getting a good deal.
Graduated licensing rules impose a lot of restrictions on driving that take the fun of it (which is a good thing, given the relationship between young drivers and crash rates.) Getting a license as a 16 year old today ain’t what it used to be.
This latest generation has also been raised with far more regimentation than previous generations. Organizing every minute of their kids’ lives seems to have become a suburban obsession. There’s a fair bit of arrested development here — parents don’t allow the kids to grow up, then wonder why they haven’t grown u.
I think a lot of it may simply have to do with our modern culture. Cars used to be our main status symbol growing up. We (or at least I) spent most of our spare money on our cars in some way or another. We didn’t have money to buy great cars then either. But that’s what JC Whitney was for, right?
That doesn’t seem to be the case today. Like somebody else mentioned, cars used to have character. They are appliances today, there’s not much difference from one to the next. Driving in cities has become a chore due to congestion. Kids who want status spend lots of money on cell phones and video games.
But some of it may be foggy memories. When I was in high school me and all my friends drove mostly junk. Nobody had anything real nice except a few rich kids. We took a lot more interest in cars than kids today, but like others have said maybe that’s because we had to just to keep them running!
I don’t know if I can go along with this “appliances” vs “cars with character”.
If one is old enough to remember 4 door Biscaynes with I6 and 3 on the tree, then one has to admit there were plenty of transportation appliances in the “good ‘ol days”.
^This. I well remember the ennui of the I6 3 on the tree Bel Air that my high school chum drove around in. Conversely, my wife’s 2013 Honda Fit Sport 5-speed is a kick in the pants.