(first posted 2/9/2017) One of my many interests is in physics, especially in the outer edges like quantum mechanics and special relativity where odd things start to happen. For example, the Twin Paradox states that if you were to take two identical twins, send one into space and back at relativistic speeds, the one who stayed behind would be much older than the one who went on the trip. Our separated-at-birth feature cars both appear to be the astronauts left behind, as neither one has aged gracefully.
Another quantum mechanics chestnut is Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle, which roughly states that we cannot know the exact position and momentum of any particle, and therefore can never be certain where a particle is at any given time. This perfect pairing 1990’s luxury coupes I found parked next to each other each demonstrates their own uncertainty principle, unsure of whether they are a sports coupe or a boulevard cruiser. (OK, the Eldo is a 2001, but it is very much a product of the ’90s, so roll with me on this one).
The 1990s were a difficult time for Cadillac and Lincoln. On the one hand, you had a steady stream of sales from WWII-era retirees, whose definition of luxury was formed in the Brougham epoch (roughly the mid-60s to the mid-80s). To these buyers, luxury meant button-tufted upholstery (to complement the pillow-like ride), upright chrome grilles, and vinyl roofs (of either the landau or full variety). But most of all, to them luxury meant BIG – Big overhangs, big wheelbase, and a big engine.
On the other hand, you had their baby-boomer children, eschewing the traditional definitions of luxury for tiny BMWs, Mercedes, and Audis with tiny engines and almost no chrome. These buyers, who came of age in the rebellious 60s, were not about to settle down and buy their parent’s Oldsmobiles.
This put Lincoln and Cadillac in a precarious situation. While they were selling Town Cars and deVilles as quickly as they could make them, the buyers for these cars were rapidly aging and moving past their peak earning years. So they needed to make a play for the import-leaning Boomers to safeguard their future, but without alienating their current buyers.
Both of these coupes represent Detroit’s own solution to the uncertainty principle, by attempting to be in two places at once (or at least two cars at once)
The featured 2001 Eldorado ESC represents a mildly facelifted version of the 10th generation Eldorado that had been on sale since 1992. With the last Eldorado rolling off the line in 2002, this example represents the penultimate model year. Since it was already well past its sell-by date in 2001, it is fair to compare it to the 1990 Lincoln parked next to it.
The 2001 Eldo was available in two trims, ESC (Eldorado Sports Coupe), and ETC (Eldorado Touring Coupe), which surely must be among the worst automotive abbreviations ever (really, Escape and et. cetera? Did no one at Cadillac see this?). The ETC was nominally targeted at performance buyers, but with little to differentiate it from the ESC than a body-colored grille, we can start to feel Heisenberg levels of uncertainty as to who exactly the target buyer was.
2001 Eldorado ETC. Can you spot the differences?
In either ESC or ETC guise, the sole engine was the failure-prone 4.6L DOHC Northstar V8, with a slight bump in power for the ETC. It also put down its power through the wrong wheels (front), which unfortunately for Cadillac was one of the few things both groups of buyers could agree on.
Clearly, the ESC feature car here was not traditional enough for its original owner, having been “upgraded” with a fake convertible top, chrome wheels, and whitewall tires.
On to the evil twin, the 1990 Mark VII LSC, another victim of mission uncertainty if ever there was one.
When it came out in 1984, the Mark VII was a radical departure from the Mark VI that preceded it (much like the 1983 Thunderbird on which the Mark was based was from its predecessor). However, rather than going all in on aero styling like the ‘Bird, Lincoln hedged their bets with a have-it-both-ways strategy. The middle of the VII looks very similar to the Thunderbird on which it is based, sporting such 80’s Ford aero touches like “aircraft” style doors with hidden rain gutters, flush window glass and vinyl-less roofs. Indeed, if you squint really hard, you can see a hint of E24 6-series in the greenhouse.
Any illusions of BMW-ness are quickly shattered once you get to the front and back ends, which are pure traditional, with their chrome bumpers, upright chrome grille, and obligatory fake spare tire hump in the trunk lid. The composite headlights (The Mark VII was actually the very first car to have them) and factory fog lights are the only concessions to contemporary style on the front end.
The overall impression is one of trying not to offend either group of buyers, while ultimately appealing to neither. What is interesting is that it didn’t have to be this way. Early concepts for the Mark VII went all in with the aero look, with an angled grille, body-color bumpers, Mercedes-inspired wheels, and apparently AMC-style door handles (as seen in the picture below). The grille, in particular, hints at what was to come on the Mark VIII. Apparently, someone at Ford blinked and decided that this might have been a bridge too far for traditional Lincoln buyers, leaving us to wonder what might have been.
Lincoln Mark VII Concept.
Much like Cadillac with the Eldorado, Lincoln tried a two-pronged strategy with the Mark VII in an attempt to appeal to both traditional buyers and their time dilated younger twins with the same car. The Base Mark VII (pictured below) featured such traditional styling cues as wire wheel covers, whitewall tires, and fake wood interior. The LSC (Luxury Sport Coupe – what’s with all the three letter acronyms, anyways?), meanwhile was ostensibly targeted at import buyers with faux BBS alloy wheels and blackwall performance tires. And like the Eldo, the differences were little more than skin deep, as all Mark VIIs came with a 302 cu in Windsor V8 (save for the rarer-than-rare 1984 and 1985 models available with a BMW diesel engine).
Mark VII in more traditional garb.
So you were to find yourself time dilated to 1992, which of these two rides would make your particles accelerate? Given the choice between the two, I would probably take the Mark. Even though it is down on power to the Eldo, it at least puts its power out through the rear wheels. And since the Mark (loosely) shares a platform with the contemporary Mustang, there is at least a promise of a hotrod Lincoln here.
The Lincoln. Power is no problem – even back then you could hot rod it for 300 hp which would have been more than enough, and the chassis could take it.
I test drove an ’88 LSC when new. For it’s day, it was quite a performer with the Mustang 5.0L engine and the firm air suspension. I seriously considered buying one but couldn’t part with my existing car.
As a matter of correction, these cars never came from the factory with wire wheel covers — those are actually aluminum wheels with spokes to simulate wire wheels. Lincoln used a couple versions of them over the years. They were just as difficult to clean as the real thing, I think.
mercury6788
I have an old car C&D magazine that wrote up an article regarding a very limited edition Mark VII back in 1987. Lincoln offered would I thought was one of the best PLC of 1987, only topped by a few cars like the BMW 635csi Sport & M-Benz 300CE Coupe (for their refinement not HP advantage). Other than these two not much could match the special edition Mark VII.
The limited edition Mark consisted of complete blackout trim interior & exterior. Not one drop of chrome was used anywhere on this particular Mark VII. It was called Lincoln Mark VII HSE super sport. The 5.0 was enlarged (& turbocharged) to crank out something like 240 or 245 bhp (that’s impressive for 1987). Had stunning “blackout” BBS crosshatch alloy wheels (deep dish) with the aluminum “lip”, a small decklid spoiler that made the rear look beautiful even with the tire mount hump. additional body cladding, aggressive front aero kit front air dam and front fascia. This car looked so bad ass it was not funny. It looked just as intimidating as the 1987 Buick Gran National GNX Turbo of that same year. The cost was almost $38K to purchase the Mark VII HSE.
Hard to believe that Lincoln at one time made a true “Boss” PLC based off the humble Mark VII!
Was this an actual production car or one of CD’s project cars? I have never heard of this special edition. I know there a special edition at the end of the production run, It was a black out version of the LSC. BTW what is “PLC’
“PLC” is “Personal Luxury Coupe” it’s generic, like “SUV”.
You’re thinking of the LSC SE, produced for ’91 and ’92 (I think there were a few 90’s). Available in black, electric currant red, or dark gray (’90 and ’91). Body color wheel centers, body color grille insert, SE badging, less chrome, and I think some interior upgrades. An appearance package, but an effective one.
The HSE was not a production affair–it may have been built for the mag, or by an aftermarket supplier. I think Roush built a limited series of modified Mark VIIs with custom body kit and engine/suspension mods, but I’m trying to remember what it was called. I don’t think the HSE was theirs.
Mr Hartfield I think you are thinking of this, from wikipedia:
Of notable mention is the Mark VII GTC, a Lincoln-Mercury dealer-sold car built by Cars & Concepts with monorchromatic paint, a body kit, and available performance upgrades. A select few were sent to Jack Roush Performance for suspension enhancements and optional 5.8L and T5 manual transmission conversions.
fortee9er
Thanks appreciate it. You are correct, why this car is not mentioned in the pantheon of greats from the 80’s-is beyond me. Which lets be honest was not many models (domestic). However, this VII GTC was a real crown jewel of a creation. I loved that the GTC looked like a gentleman’s “Bad ass” ride.
It had a very mature, yet bad boy in it. That’s not a common mix at all, very rare in fact. Some how out of all the models the lincoln PLC was blessed to have this special ride. The Mark GTC is an interesting blend of rowdy arrogant irresponsible teenager, meets baby boomer. The two get along and work to make a true sports coupe American Style.
That kind of car personality if you will (appeal), does not come along that often. Two demographics that are as far apart as you can get!
Indeed, these are some damn nice not-wire ‘wire’ wheels. Maybe not as nice as the Iconic Lincoln forged-aluminum classic dish wheels…
but, you’ve really gotta hand it to them for putting these out there in an era of the rubber-mallet smacked wire-wheel covers of varying quality/look grades that were just everywhere.
Side story on this car since i’m here… ATT, my Mom was a Wall Street Firm-Partner, Series7 Institutional Broker, working NYC & CHI but running the Chicago office. anyhow, she executed a really big Tute trade having both the front and back end of that trade, her commission was very large, so she wanted to rid herself of her current vehicle unhappiness with part of the $$.
She was a very loyal Cadillac & GM person, currently had an ’83 Eldo Biarritz, fully loaded triple white beauty. but there’s a whole story on that awful HT4100 nightmare (her final Cadillac because of that motor). Mom loved the looks of that car, as did everyone… but she just hated driving the Biarritz, and/or taking it in to the Dealer so often. So sold at a loss it was and we went to local Lincoln Dealer where she paid cash for a decked out, loaded 1989 Mark VII LSC. code-11 Silver Frost Clearcoat Met. I think it was around $39K and i was just ecstatic. So many times I asked that whenever she would get rid of the car that i wanted it. When she moved to HHI (Hilton Head Island) I road-trip drove it down for her on a vaca visit. Once she was thru with it in 2004, a 1-owner, 27,000 mile ’89 fully-loaded LSC, moonroof too. (I couldn’t find pics RN of the Eldo or Mark)
But instead of asking me again ‘do you want it now?’ she sold it to a local trim shop kid for $3K! She still says, oh you wouldnt have wanted it, it had an issue with the airbag in back and needed the driver’s seat bolster redone.
I love my Mother but to this day it’s still Grrrrr
Cadillac if pressed. Such a great shape up to the b-pillar, then it sort of just drops away. Apropos of recent conversation, I would have called the performance version ESC. Go figure.
Don, the Northstar Cadillac V8 was notorious for being a fragile engine design with myriad problems including infamous cylinder head gasket leaks due to inadequate, flawed design, too small cylinder head bolts, cylinder head bolt corrosion resulting in head loosening from the aluminum block, and oil sump/pan leaks. Characterized as a real money pit. Cadillac engine design jumped the tracks starting in the early 1980’s and remained off track with the Northstar design. Beware of Northstar powered cars.
It was revised significantly in 2000, although that was far, far too late. It was revised again in 2004 and by most reports, was quite reliable when modified for RWD platform duty.
Such a shame. It was a smooth, powerful engine plagued by reliability issues.
Bill, this has been a chronic GM failing. Introduce an inadequately designed engine, have customers experience failures, then after the damage in reputation has been done, do the revision to settle earlier design issues, and then produce an adequate engine which will soon be discontinued. This dysfunctional pattern has been typical of GM. Think about the later improved decent HT engines like the HT4900 and the last Northstar engines, even the last of series Vega engines. Even the Fiero was best in it’s last year of production, then discontinued. A bizarre way to have run a company, for unfortunately decades, ultimately making the customer the final in service tester uncovering preproduction flaws that should have been discovered and fixed prior to release in order to ensure happy end product users/customers.
Geelongvic
You are 100% accurate with you’re right up. Same thing with the Pontiac 6000 (especially in STE-AWD trim). At one time car magazine editors said the Pontiac 6000 had the potential to beat out several imports if it was just a little more refined. so much potential for that car that was lost. GM spent too much time dropping that crappy weak, sickly 2.5 (Iron Duke) Tech 4 engine into almost every model.
By placing this, I think then 92 bhp to haul and pull these heavy cars. Making them drastically under powered for the weight of mid sized cars & vans Pathetic-shame on you GM!
Geelongvic – all good mate, I’ll just swap in a V8-6-4. hehehe
I have to ask; your comments colour you as an American, but your CC name…?
Proudly born in Geelong, have many relations in Vic and SA, emigrated to the States, still a loyal “Cats” fan. Will be back in Oz with wife and a daughter during Sept. and Oct. to see family and lifelong friends, and also plan a side excursion holiday to Tas while there. While in Vic will do a short side trip to Sunbury’s Jackson Creek to fulfill a request of my father. My wife loves Lorne and Dalesford, so those are necessary side trips. Cheers
My mother grew up in Geelong, and I spent many a great weekend there playing with my cousins. These days, we at CC have Young Pete as Geelong correspondent. cheers
Not far away from there myself, though born on the other side of the state.
Thats why they fail to attract £1000 for any of the handfull of RHD models imported to the UK thru 98-01.Junk cars!.
I really like the Mark VII design except for two things. One is the tire hump, of course. I get that it’s a heritage styling cue but, come on, some things need to just die. The second thing is the front bumper. It looks like it’s tacked on, like this is a ’74 Pinto and not a loaded Lincoln. Otherwise, the design is gorgeous and has aged well. The fact that this rides on the Fox platform and is thus easily modified is just the icing on the cake.
When I was a kid, I got my hands on a PC game called Midtown Madness 2 and it was my first real exposure to Cadillacs because one of the cars I could race was a 2001 Eldorado. I always picked it. It was what made me a fan of the brand but today, with the benefit of hindsight, I must say that I’m not as much of a fan. Do I love the styling? Yes, inside and out. Do I love the Northstar V8? You bet, if it’s actually running. But do I love front-wheel-drive in a car of this size and with this much power? No thanks.
You know what I’d take over either of these? A Mark VIII. More arresting and cohesive styling, an alluring interior, a punchy 4.6 V8 and rear-wheel-drive. A Mark VIII would be at the top of my list if I was buying an older car. If I had to take a FWD Northstar Caddy, I’d take a Seville (although I’m surprised how poor the space utilization is in those).
Why Ford never made a sedan off of the MN-12 platform is beyond me, but it was one of their most bone-headed decisions.
Oof. Now I really want a Mark VIII. Keep me away from Craigslist.
I had Midtown Madness 1 and 2 for PC! Loved that game! And I frequently used the Eldorado too. Always loved the way the cracked taillights looked when it was crashed for some reason lol.
As for the tire hump, this is probably one of the few interpretations where it actually looked kind of good, even more so than on the classic Lincolns it paid homage to. The Mark VIII, on the other hand, it looked much more out of place on.
An MN-12 sedan would seem to be a no-brainer. Instant sports sedan, with the specifications (home-grown!) and the handling ability to really give Lincoln some serious credibility as a luxury marque.
My first thought when yesterday’s feature on the Seville/Versailles/M-body’s expansion into their ’80s successors was that instead of copying Cadillac’s humpback bad idea but a bit less worse with the Fox Continental, they should’ve just shoehorned a couple extra doors into the Mark VII.
Perhaps DeLorean was the faux-convertible-top installer? Otherwise there’s a flux capacitor or bunch of drugs hidden in the Eldorado somewhere.
There actually was a DeLorean Cadillac dealership in Cleveland for many, many years (it closed in 2005). It was founded by Chuck DeLorean, brother of famed John Z. DeLorean.
I remember some period reviews gave Cadillac a little grief for the “ETC” name back in the day; wonder what underwhelming badges a company could come up with now. “The new Chevrolet Malibu Enhanced Habitat!” or “Bentley Advanced Roving Four-Door!”
That really was a mind-blowingly stupid acronym to use. It positively invited people to poke fun at a Cadillac.
But, hey, that was GM back then, I guess…
Always Lincoln for this comparison. With the exception of the rear end, I can’t find anything I like about the Eldorado.
Note that the LSC was FAR more than a cosmetic change: in addition to retuned suspension and 16″ performance tires, for several years the LSC got the Mustang’s 200hp 5.0 HO, while the base MkVII got the regular 150hp 5.0 (basically, the Crown Vic engine).
For 1991-2, all Mk VIIs got the LSC chassis parts and wheels.
Thanks for that–I was going to mention that very important point! I think the LSC first got the HO motor in ’87? The suspension tuning was also very different, set up for comfort above all else in the base/Bill Blass versions, with much firmer sport-oriented calibration in the LSC. It’s air suspension at all four corners, by the way.
It got what was basically the 1986 Mustang engine (200HP) in 1986-87. 1988-92, it got the 225HP 5.0 HO…though I recall that, unlike the 1988+ Mustang, the Linc used the older speed-density EFI system until 1992.
LSCs got much more supportive seats too, very similar to the Recaros of the day. I agree, if you consider these a mere cosmetic package then you have to consider a M6 as a cosmetic package to the 635 CSI.
I think the L6 would be more appropriate since it was a trim package. The M6 had a different engine which set it apart.
So did the LSC.
I remember 1985 Indianapolis 500 winner Danny Sullivan extolling the virtues of the Lincoln, and that sold me then, circa 1986 (I was about 28 years old). Sullivan’s endorsement sort of gave it a halo, and I loved the looks, as a huge fan of the Mark II, and seeing something of it in the Mark VII, especially the tail. So I’d been hankering for one for years, but with the passage of time, it sort of receded into the dust bin. The Cadillac, on the other hand, I’ve been lusting after since its introduction to just recently, coming close to getting one, but finally throwing in the towel over the head gasket issue–I don’t want to do something and then be kicking myself and yelling to myself “What were you thinking?” and being haunted by the admonition, “Don’t ever buy a car just for the looks!” Interestingly, when the Eldorados and Sevilles came out around ’92, they were very popular for a bit with the movers and shakers of Hollywood–a brief moment in the sun where American became cool again in the hot sun. (I guess it’s that way with Tesla now.) I’d take the Eldorado, if I could be assured that the Northstar was good.
+1 here on the Lincoln too.
The odd thing is that since the Lincoln Mark did not change over to their new model until 1993. The Cadillac Eldorado was new in 1992. So even though you’re side by side is of a 1990 & a 2001. In 1992 the picture above would have been spot on.
Which made the Lincoln look extra extra old fashion and dated. Sure the Eldorado was new for 1992, and beautiful might I add compared to the outgoing model. Where as the Lincoln was introduced in like 1983-1984. That’s the down side to when you have to face you’re direct competition in between model changes. The brand new model instantly leaps forward and wins the competition (briefly)-until the new model is released. Lincoln was lucky that it had to have it’s old Mark coupe was just a year away.
However, in some cases delay is too long. Take the all new Lexus (1989) LS-400, it faced the Jaguar XJ saloon (along with others). The Lexus was so ahead of it’s time in 1989, yet the new Jaguar that better matched the Lexus in size, abilities, features etc. Would not come about until 5 years later (1995). That had to hurt, seeing the 1989 Jag Sorveign XJ40 (spelling is wrong..lol) Vanden Plas parked next to the all new 1989 Lexus.
I realse this article was based on the serendipity of a photo arrangement, but its not a fair comparison. The Lincoln is a much older design, intended for a different time.
A more appropriate comparison would be one of contemporaries, the Eldo and the Mark VIII, which were built concurrently for years as directly competitive models, and had very similar engine design and specifications. In that case the Mark VIII would wipe the floor with the Eldo, due to a more sophisticated chassis and a better interior layout.
But, given a choice between the cars shown here, I’m undecided. I’ve driven examples of both over the years. The Eldo was very fast. Even today it will give anything a good run for the money. The rear suspension is more sophisticated and simply better.
But the Lincoln is stone axe-reliable with a driveline and suspension easily tuned for power and stance.
Very true. The VII was in production from 1984 to 1992, so it does only overlap this generation of the Eldorado by one slim year. The VIII ran from 1993 to 1998 and is the true competitor to these Eldorados, and is better is just about every quantifiable measure except for maybe rear seat space. Styling is more subjective as they’re from very different idioms, but I’ve always found the VIII stunning while these Eldorados *can* look good (like the red ETC pictured in the article) but most of them leave me a little cold.
OntarioMike
I’m not sure the Mark VIII of 1993 would wipe the floor on the 1993 Eldorado. They ran neck and neck in reality. The Eldorado in ETC form had the better, richer, more internationally laid out interior-the Northstar when new was a beast.
Lincoln edged out the Caddy in Exterior design though…
The Modular DOHC is a far FAR better engine than the Northstar.
+1000
I’d take the Lincoln. Easy choice. I think that they should have incorporated the government required third brakelight into the tire hump on the trunk. Maybe combine it with a four pointed Lincoln star emblem. With today’s LED lights the possibilities would be endless. I think that the Mark VIII was on the right track toning it down a little, but I wish they had kept it.
Hardboiled Eggs and Nuts
Yeah Cadillac must have been insane to challenge the 1986 Lincoln Mark VII LSC. With their then new & downsized 1986 Eldorado. That competition was won by Lincoln by a landslide. Heck the 1985 Mark VII, easily beats the 1985 Caddy Eldo.
The Lincoln won in every single category (literally). In fact the 1986 Cadillac Eldorado was executed so poorly (with only 125 bhp) this year, it should have been seen more as competition for say the 1986 Mercury Capri, not the grand polished Lincoln Mark VII.
It’ interesting and noteworthy how fast the Eldorado went from a 130 HP HT 4100 weakling 1n 1986 to a better 155 HP 4.5 in 1988 to the better still 200 HP 4.9 for 1990 and then a short time later was offering 295 HP Northstar V8’s for 1993. The 4.5 should have been ready by 1986 with more power and better reliability and the Northstar better developed.
Joe Yoman
I noticed that as well, just more proof that GM was all over the place panicking because the Oil/fuel crises was over by 1986.
Despite the sloppy roll out of the 1986 Eldorado. Ironically by the end of the model range say 1990-1991 (in ETC trim). I liked it, the constant annual revisions make it a true player in the PLC segment by 1990!
295 HP for a 1986 Eldorado, would have been to much for the small Eldorado to handle. That much HP would have never cleared government regulations. 295 HP in 1986 was Ferrari territory….
I don’t think government regulations had anything to do with the horsepower made by an engine–if it could make that power while still complying with emissions regs, then you’re good. I think the limitation was more along the lines of trying to make that power with 1986 technology. It just wasn’t happening without spending lots of money and/or going with forced induction. Power went up by leaps and bounds in the late 80’s through the 90’s across the board, a trend that continues today with 300 HP base Mustangs and 250 HP 4-cylinder family cars.
The 4.9 (or 4900) engine had 275 lb-ft of torque, not quite as much as the Northstar, which peaked at just under 300 (for the higher performance engine). The difference in horsepower is due to the Northstar having the torque high at 6000 RPM’s where the pushrod 4900 horsepower peaks at 4400 or so.
I think sorting out the problems with the 4100 took until 1986 or so. The 4.5 is the same engine as the 4100, just bigger. When the 4100 went into production in 1982, the problems did not show up till about the 1983 model year. Then exactly what was wrong was not clear for another year or two.
“In fact the 1986 Cadillac Eldorado was executed so poorly (with only 125 bhp) this year, it should have been seen more as competition for say the 1986 Mercury Capri, not the grand polished Lincoln Mark VII.”
And to think the Eldo was the ultimate GM prestige car! It must have seen like Cadillac was abdicating the ultra-prestige segment and moving downmarket.
I was a teenager in the mid 90’s and remember thinking that both of these were pretty cool. And for what it’s worth, I had friends my own age who had one of each. In high school, a buddy of mine had a Mark VII (I forget the year) but I loved the cozy digitized interior and the “Mustang engine” under the hood. Same with the Eldorado. When I worked at a Cadillac dealer in the early 2000’s, I really wanted an early 90’s version with the 4.5 liter, and a college buddy had a mid-90’s Eldo that made us all jealous.
Tough choice, since I love both the Lincoln and the Eldorado. On an exterior design basis, I like both equally, however I’d give the Cadillac an edge on the interior design, which I consider to be one of the era’s best for a car of its class.
On a mechanical side, I’d prefer the RWD 302V-8 over the FWD Northstar.
So I guess combined those aspects, I’d give a slight edge to the Lincoln. But I’d probably still long for the Eldorado every time I’d see one.
I remember when the Mark VII LSC came out, and considered it the closest thing to a real Lincoln I had seen since the 70s. Finally, a Lincoln that would put some power to the ground.
The 1980s really was Lincoln’s decade, and I think it’s fair to say that the version of the Eldo we see here was Cadillac finally trying to punch back in what had been a hopelessly one-sided fight.
I think the Cadillac is the more attractive car of the two, this style of Eldo is one of the few Cadillacs of the era that really rings my bell. But the Lincoln would be my pick. I wish the tire hump had been retired with the rest of the Mark VI, but in all other things, gimmie that 5.0 H.O.
No defense, but if the Northstar is properly maintained or FIXED after it fails, it is a great engine. I had an Aurora with the V6 “shortstar” that had 124K on it when I bought it and 210K when I traded it last month. NEVER had an engine problem. Had to replace both diverter valves and had some weird grounding issues that were repaired. Also had a trans that would occasionally shift rough (known issue – can’t remember the code or name of issue). But car never left me stranded. My mechanic is a very good Northstar guy and says if the head bolts are replaced with Studs and work done properly, these are really great reliable cars. Of course, that goes back the previous post about GM having the customer have to deal with the problems that should have been found before releasing to public.
This is correct. Our shop tech replaced many NS headbolts and gaskets and the motors lived on for many years with no further issues. It just would have been nice if GM got it right out of the gate for once at the time.
Yeah…I guess the Northstar is great, after you yank the motor and re-engineer half of it. (Don’t forget the infamous “Northstar drip”, the $2000+ oil leak!) The Northstar engine is just one in a long list of reasons that GM deserved to go under.
Agree on the 6 series BMW exterior styling influence on the Lincoln!
And all this time I thought I was the only one who noticed this!!
Kudos to Tom for noticing this and agreeing with me. 🙂
The Ford design teams must have held the E24 6-series as a muse for quite some time. If you look at the profile of the ’89 MN12 Thunderbird, there’s a *lot* of the 6er in there also.
+1.
I second the opinion that this isn’t really a fair comparison; the Cadillac is a generation ahead of the Mark VII. This Eldo competed with the Mark VIII.
If the question were Eldo vs. Mark VIII, I would take the Mark VIII. They’re both fragile cars, but the Mark VIII’s style is stunning, and it’s a proper rwd GT.
I currently own a 1990 Mark VII LSC with about 40k miles. The transmission is a little dimwitted, but other than that it’s a thoroughly enjoyable car. It has good Pirelli tires on the OEM 16″ wheels, so it can handle the curves.
Given that Ford was aiming at the BMW 6-series (at a much lower price), they came surprisingly close to their target. You can argue about the cost/benefit analysis on an independent rear suspension, but the Mark VII’s air suspension is great system on its own. Two low-cost (zero cost?) changes would’ve made it a real threat to the 6-series: a more-aggressive transmission and sharper steering.
It would be interesting to think about a world where the Mark VII came with an IRS, stick-shift, and sport steering. I’m not sure Lincoln buyers would’ve paid for it (extra $$$ for IRS), and I’m not sure that BMW buyers would accept the Lincoln badge (especially with that tire hump–the only real styling error). But would’ve been a helluva car.
I wouldn’t call the VIII fragile, at least hardly any more so than the VII. The DOHC 4.6 is just as reliable as the SOHC versions as long as you don’t try to put a lot of boost to it (which is why the “Terminator” Cobra used a one-off iron block DOHC motor). The 4R70W is a little suspect, but it was used in just about every RWD V8 Ford product of the 90’s, so it’s a known quantity. About the only thing that is at all failure-prone is the air suspension, same as the VII, and these days that’s an easy fix since Arnott makes reasonably-priced OEM replacement parts.
HID headlamps are an issue on the MK VIII, I don’t think they are available anymore, and I’m not aware of any aftermarket solutions.
True, those are a rather major issue on the ’97-’98 models. I think there are unsanctioned ways of dealing with them, but I’m not sure. (IIRC the bulbs are still available but the ballasts are NLA). The ’93-’96 non-LSC version uses standard halogens which, while lackluster in terms of light output, are common.
The ’95-’96 LSC used another unusual HID design. No idea if you can get replacements for those or not.
The Aluminum blocks used in the Mark are actually considered to be the strongest blocks of all the 4.6s, cast in Teksid Italy. Later aluminum WAP(Windsor Aluminum Plant) blocks made in the 2000s aren’t as strong.
I wonder whether they should have tooled up a humpless decklid for the LSC, to really get the point across? Give traditional buyers the hump, but tell them it’ll be gone on the next model – and make the VIII humpfree acrioss the range.
I’m going with the Mark due to RWD and reputedly more reliable innards, Ironically I’ll defend the Eldorado for being FWD, Even if the rest of Cadillac’s lineup remained RWD, Most buyers expected the Eldo to be FWD.
I am a sucker for the Lincoln Mark VII. I thought the design was very bold when it was introduced, even the way it blended traditional and contemporary elements. Maybe I’m an oddball, but I actually like how the faux spare tire hump was handled–it gave the rear an unmistakable signature style element (something that Cadillac was a master at for years, with the thin bladed tail lights–which was my favorite element of the Eldo).
The Mark VII design lingered a few years too long (the Mark VIII should have appeared in ’89 or ’90 at the latest), but for the 1980s I thought it was a good look. I think the relatively slow sales for the Mark VII were probably due to the overall dramatic decline in coupe popularity during those years. The target for the Mark VII (and other high-end large coupes) was affluent 40-something to 60-something buyers, who would NOT have been Baby Boomers for the most part in the 1980s, so the contemporary twist on established Lincoln styling cues was arguably strategically correct.
The Eldorado, coming later, really did need to reach out more to a new generation of buyers–that 40-something to 60-something sweet spot for high-end luxury coupes being more solidly populated with Baby Boomers by the 1990s. I always felt the ’92 Seville was a more cohesive design than the Eldorado, though the coupe had the better butt (real Cadillacs should have thin vertical tail lights!). The interior was lovely, but I think many prospects would have thought that the exterior design was trapped between eras–not modern enough for Boomers, not “classic” enough for the older cohort.
I’d take the Lincoln. It has the best styling and I happen to like the upright grill and faux spare tire hump, signature Lincoln design elements.
Without question, the Lincoln Mark VII. I had its sister cars, ’88 5.0L T-Bird with all the trimmings, as well as an ’88 Turbo Coupe back in the day. These just seemed like broughamed up versions of my cars, so I’d’ve been satisfied.
I was not a fan of the Caddy in the early Northstar days (nor the engines that immediately preceded it). Besides the styling of that era not doing it for me, there was no way those Cadillac engines were any match for the venerable 302 from Ford. Sure, I’ll bet the performance (initially) was better from the Northstar, but the 5.0L would outlast that engine every time, longevity-wise.
There was an abandoned 2001 DTS (this Eldo’s 4 door sister) at the end of my street for 3 months before anyone noticed that it had not moved. I should’ve shot it for the Cohort, as it was parked Curbside. It had out of state plates that expired in October, which was the month it showed up. It was finally towed away by the county police in January. The car was in great shape appearance wise. On the passenger seat, two new radiator hoses and a new oil filter on the driver’s seat. Maybe someone realized that Northstar was going to take WAY more than that to get it going again and cut their losses. We may never know that car’s story. My wife thinks the owner was probably upside down in his loan and reported it stolen to get out from under it, and then hid the car. If that’s the case, dude’s probably in real trouble now.
If the guy reported it stolen, and it got paid off before recovery, then he is pretty much off the hook, unless the insurance company really paid off a huge amount. IIRC, when somebody really did steal my Cutlass Ciera (teens joyriding in it, assumed), the insurance company told me that if it went 7 days without recovery, they would pay off on comprehensive coverage. Damned if the cops didn’t find it on day 5! They had abandoned it in an apartment complex lot and left it open to rain (window smashed out) during the Florida summer. As such, the insurance paid for repairs to the steering column and window and I had to drive it for another long time. If this guy went 3 months without recovery, any insurance claim would have been paid, and the impounded car the property of the insurance company once the check was written. In other words, he got away with it…..
If the owner was planning to hid it somewhere and abandon it, why spend good money on radiator hoses and an oil filter?
The whole thing was kinda weird. My neighbor was home the day the car showed up and said that two cars came down the street (I live on a dead end cul-de-sac) and one parked curbside (the DTS), and the driver got out, got into the other car, and they drove away. That was it. He never came back for it. I asked him about it because I thought it may’ve been a project car he was working on, but he said no, and that he was thinking about calling the county to report it abandoned. Maybe it just wasn’t worth what it was going to take to fix its issues. The car looked pretty good externally, but was missing 3 of its four chrome caps for its chrome (OEM) rims. When the only wheel with a cap’s tire went flat, we all knew it was time for it to go away. Hopefully someone will save it from the smasher.
VII all day for me as well. I, too, am one of the few who likes the “hump”, but I’m a sucker for a well-executed heritage cue and I think they did a pretty good job blending it with the rest of the styling. Same with the stand-up grille treatment–to me it works with the rest of the cues.
The N* Eldorado is higher tech, sure, and does have a better interior. But the VII wins in every other category. I’d take the one in the photo, but for peak VII goodness, make mine a 1991 LSC SE in gray.
Give me the Mark VII. But I want the Turbo Diesel.
I saw an etcetera a couple of days ago I wasnt sure what it was at the time, There didnt seem to be anything wrong with it as it was being driven when I saw it maybe local ingenuity has cured its mechanical ills you people seem so paranoid about, anyway that makes two Caddy two door immigrants locally one blue one white this model there could be more, I havent spotted the Lincoln yet but theres bound to be one somewhere.
Regarding the twin paradox, why don’t satellites moving in orbit around the earth at high speed, so their clocks run slow, disappear into the past? Or perhaps time travel really does not work.
Note that to make the GPS system work, relativistic effects need to be taken into account.
17,500 miles per hour is a far cry from 186,282 miles per second! ;o)
But you’re right… I do recall reading that the GPS system needs to take relativistic effects into account.
Just thinking about that kinda stuff reminds me of the kind of stuff we’d discuss after smoking the leaves of a popular psychoactive plant while listening to “The Moody Blues” 😉
Lucky side-by-side find and a thorough comparison. As a fan of coupes, I can appreciate each automaker’s efforts both the Mark VII and the Eldorado much more than I can with the sedans each division was rolling out at the time (excluding the 1992 Seville).
While hardly appealing to the younger European import buyer demographic, each car at least attempted to be non-broughamy enough without trying too hard to be “Euro”, therefore each was a successful and tasteful contemporary take on American personal luxury.
Each had their deficiencies, and Tom, I agree with you that the Eldorado tended to have more faults. Though I like each one’s styling, I’ve always been drawn to the Mark VII’s inside and out. There’s just something very bad ass about its looks. It’s sinister and European-esque, yet makes no apologies for its American styling elements.
Brendan Saur
I will never understand why the 1992 Cadillac Seville, especially in STS trim is not recognized as one of the best executed designs in modern car history (both interior & exterior).
Having been an owner of my ETC for over two years, I would have to say, I would rather have the Mark VII.
Why? Because I know the engine will work.
Last month, my engine finally overheated again, and sure enough, it turned out to be a busted headgasket. Rather than rebuild the engine, My dad and I made the decision to swap in a new engine. 7600 bucks. The engine works wonderfully now, but its causing my engine temperature to read hot because its not synched properly, and to replace it would mean ripping out the instrument cluster, and for some reason, now my AC won’t work. The fan will turn on, but I think there’s something up with the blower motor, as it won’t come out of the vents.
Between the engine swap, the fixing of the HVAC, the suspension replacement, the radiator replacement, and having to figure out what might be wrong with the AC this time, all of this has cost us nearly 15 large in repairs. For a car that will only be worth three grand when I make the decision to sell it.
I know this opinion is a complete 180 from my COAL, but its hard to keep positive when you’re in a relationship with a car that is quite frankly, abusive. In fact, I had planned to just ship it off to the scrapyard when the engine went boom. But my dad convinced (Read: Subtly guilt trip) me into saving it because of the repairs done and the fact that the rest of it was in good condition. I think he’s developed Stockholm syndrome toward the car.
Yes, the Northstar is great when it runs, but after the mess of replacing the engine, and the fact that a powerful V8 like that is directed toward the front wheels, making for a sometimes scary and very compromised experience, the luster is gone.
With the Mark VII, the only trouble spot is the air suspension, and considering all the forums out there devoted to repairing it, not to mention the replacement parts being easier, I just think it would’ve been a better choice. Maybe if I had driven it, I could find flaws more clearly, but just on paper, and from experience with the Eldorado, I would’ve not been contemplating the regret I am now.
Oh jeez! What a heart-breaker! I don’t know what to say, except that it does rather reinforce my feelings about these cars. And I wish you all the best in making it work. Most sincerely so!
I really enjoyed the time I had with the ’04 Deville I had at work. Never had a serious problem with it. What made it all the more enjoyable was the fact that even if the head gasket blew or any other catastrophic thing went wrong my employer would have just sent it on its way and I’d be out $0.
Also, having spent a good deal of windshield time in it and having its lesser Chevy Impala stablemate as my personally owned car at the same time, I also got to take a good look at it pretty unbiased, as in not trying to justify it to myself or the wife or anyone else. Aside from some neat features like the heated and cooled seats, heated steering wheel, various feedbacks from various sensors in the EVIC, the hood ornament, etc. it was a pretty “meh” car. The leather was at best ok, the switch gear was cheap, lots of other parts looked or felt like they belonged on a Chevy rather than a GM flagship. I still enjoyed it, no doubt, but it was no “Standard of the World”. I looked at a little bit better equipped one for myself but other than the fact that the leather actually smelled like leather it really wasn’t much better. Plus, it flashed a check engine light on my extended test drive and included a little journal from the previous owner in which near to the last entry discussed having it towed to the dealer for having had coolant in the oil.
It went back to the dealer the next day and I’ve never looked back.
I admire your perseverance… but I’m sure glad not to be in your shoes. I hope you somehow manage to make it work for you…. maybe once you get it straightened out, it will stay with you for the next 30 years and age into a true classic.
I like them both. The ETC or any Eldo without a vinyl top is a good looking car. The LSC Mark is also a cleaner design. Yes the Mark VIII was competitive with the 295 hp Northstar. These cars could really run, FWD or not. Like the post about the 7 series BMW, these cars are hitting the bottom of the resale value barrel with obvious results.
What would I do, what would I do… what I DID! The Mark VII LSC (that I still have). I liked it so much, I bought another, then another, then some Mark VIIIs. I liked the Eldo styling when it first came out since it was like an updated copy of the VII’s style, but it seemed so much cheaper inside and less well made.
There was also the stereotype of Lincoln for the working man, Cadillac for the retiree… I was in college. Being in college, I threw every go fast bit at it that I could until it was almost impossible to drive in rain or snow without going sideways 🙂
I still like the styling of the Mark and think that it has aged well and is still elegant, powerful and stately looking going down the road. The last time that I drove her to get gas, there was a car full of “kids” taking pictures with their phones and arguing over whether it was an old Rolls or Bentley. Not sure that would happen with the Eldorado, still too many of them on CL being sold for cheap that “just need a tuneup”.
(Luxury Sport Coupe – what’s with all the three letter acronyms, anyways?)
BMW. CSI. That’s what.
At least in Lincoln’s defense they actually were original, Cadillac basically just replaced Luxury with Eldorado for their _SC. Most of Cadillac’s lineup since Art and Science is still using that formula too.
And yes, I’ll pick the Lincoln, as I truly find the design attractive. It may not have aged well as a product of the 90s, but as a product of the 80s, which it truly is? It’s aged as well as any Mercedes and BMW of that period, and that’s strong company. It’s really apples and oranges to compare the two since the Mark VIII is the true contemporary to this generation Eldorado, wile the Mark VII’s was the 86-91, and I think for most the choice between the stubby Eldorado and Lincoln would be a massive wash(even though the choice is pretty well in favor for the Lincoln in this contest anyway judging by the comments).
Also, the Mark VII is one of those cars that looked better than the concept IMO. Regardless if the nose was more upright or if it retained the distinguishing tire hump, it was still a huge departure from the Mark IV and Lincoln’s styling staples used since 1970 or so as a whole. No bladed fenders, no sharp edges, and it had fast roofline, smooth transitions from roof to body, and angled rear end. It was a truly American design through and through, only cave to European influence was the bucking of American design trends popular in the sheer look period. The mid section doesn’t look BMW like to me, it’s not near as blatant as the MN12 Thunderbird, or analogous to the the 1979 Mustang coupe’s roofline being a tracing paper copy of the r108 Mercedes Benz SLC (another answer to the three letter acronym), when Ford copies something it’s blatant damnit! Personally I see more first gen Olds Toronado in the Mark VII, so there’s no disconnect for my American biased senses, this is how American style looked before the 1970s turned PLCs into kitsch straight edged boxes on wheels.
Cadillac if pressed, but not THIS one. It’s trying to be THREE cars at once with the hideous fake convertible roof.
I’d take the Mark VII, but a Bill Blass. I gotta have my hood ornament and don’t care for Sport Super Sporty S models.
Lincoln for me too.
The only thing worse than an unreliable car with a bad reputation is an unreliable prestige car with a bad reputation. Unreliability is not prestigious. Nor is a bad reputation, arguably.
Doesn’t this Caddy look awful with that vinyl toupee? Wrinkled like an ill-fitting suit a Cadillac drive of yore wouldn’t be seen dead in. And yet the rest of the car looks perfect. The chrome wheels aren’t to my taste, but they don’t offend. I’d strip off the top, but what horrors of metallic permeability might that uncover? Assuming the best (not a good idea with a used car), that would still leave that dissonant quarter-window shape nobody has mentioned today, and the Northstar everybody seems to have mentioned.
Reputation. Hmm…
Nope, definitely Lincoln.
My brother had a ’91 Eldorado with the 4.9. Torquey and nicely built. n real experience with the MKVII, although I thought it was remarkable and distinctive for a car built on a Fox body.
I did pull a 5.0 HO out of an LSC in the early 2000’s for a project Farimont. Re-ringed it, honed the cylinders, new timing chain, oil pump. Ported and polished the E7 heads and added a B303 roller cam. Great little engine, and still lives today within a friends ’82 Mustang GT. Not sure a Northstar from that era could say the same.
Much more a Ford fan than GM, I none the less see the Lincoln as nothing more than a T-bird with a faux tire hump in the trunk lid. The Eldorado and it’s 4 door sibling I liked, pretty much the first Caddy ever whose styling appealed to me. Mix in a 300 HP engine and supposedly a real handling package (according at least initially from the magazines) it sounded good!
Now in real life the ~300HP may have been true, but for how long. And handling wise, they may not have been full boat, but close.
Wasn’t in my price range at the time anyway…
MotorWeek tested an ’84 and ’88 Continental. They were pleased with both, but the ’88 benefit from fuel injection and a few more refinements that demonstrated Ford was serious about improving the vehicle.
1984 link:
1988 Link:
These Lincolns were very sharp in my book….and much more appealing than any other domestic. At the time I was shopping for my first premium car and two things turned me off. One was the Mustang 5.0 V8…in those days I just couldn’t get my head around why you would put a pedestrian Ford engine in a Lincoln. Then I sat in one; a fetching grey-blue version…man was it cramped and dark inside given the exterior mass. I ended up finding an Acura Legend more to my liking.