I’ve had a run of bad luck with my two little cars this year. The Ford Focus has seen my mechanic three times. In February, the power-steering pump failed. In March, a CEL led to replacing the thermostat and its housing. And then in April, the alternator died–in 65 mph Interstate traffic at 9:30 at night. I limped along at 25 mph on the shoulder with pretty much no headlights or tail lights, and managed to get off the highway before the car shut down entirely. On top of that, my high-mileage Toyota Matrix needed a new axle half shaft and brakes all around. I’ve now invested $2,400 into keeping my two cars going this year. A lot of that cost is labor, as both cars cram the engine and all accessories into tiny spaces, necessitating removing lots of stuff to get at the dead part. Replacing the Focus’s alternator involved lifting the engine partway out of the car!
Repairs are part of the territory when you buy cars that are 6 to 8 years old and then drive ‘em into the ground, like I do. But my opinion about a car changes dramatically after it leaves me stranded. The car has breached a basic trust, and I think seriously about replacing it.
I came really close to putting a For Sale sign in the Focus’s window. But given all the other things competing for my dollars this year and my severe car-payment allergy, I’ve decided to stick with my two old cars. For now. If they don’t act up any more.
This leads me to the Question of the Day: how much nonsense do you put up with from your car before you give up and replace it?
They are generally gone at the first sign of rust.
Generally, when the weird stuff starts to happen is when it goes. The ’01 Taurus had brake issues and despite replacing everything, it was still acting up. So it was gone.
My Buick is flirting with that threshold now. Yes, the engine computer just died, but I prompted that when the 02 sensor kissed a plug wire. It’s periodic skipping of first gear is where it’s flirting with a new owner.
You planning any trips to Disney World or Universal Studios this year?
Hadn’t really thought about it.
Send Paul or Perry an email at the contact form and they will forward to me. We can talk.
It depends on the pattern of failure vs value of the car. Usually cars start showing the end is near when issues creep up at higher rates…then the big failure occurs like a tranny, head gasket etc. I donno how many miles are on your focus but if its over 140k and has another issue over the next 3 months I’d say the end is near and sell it while its worth something. Same goes for the matrix.
Ive always driven beater cars and driven them into the ground or they got in accidents and were totaled. By the time the driven into the ground beaters had the big problem (achieva dead tranny, reliants mitsu 2.6 needed new timing chain guides) they were only worth scrap\parts anyway.
Jim: I keep my cars a long time like you. My daily driver is a 2008 Saturn Astra with 95,000 miles and its paid off. Our other car is an Equinox,2011,also paid off. The Astra has been a great car in almost six years. You just ran into bit of bad luck, but on balance you did the right thing not selling. No payments is a beautiful thing. Maybe now you will good to go for a long time. I think you to consider dumping when the repair is not worth the value of the car, like if the Focus needed a $2,000 tranny swap, or a cracked engine block. A nickel and dimer now and again you can accept. Put that car payment money in the bank, college fund, 401k….
Yeah… the Focus is worth way more than the $1400 I put in it. The Matrix is in bad cosmetic shape and has a ton of miles and isn’t worth much more than the $1000 I put in it.
I’d say vice versa on that! I’d think a Matrix is more valuable than a Focus to many drivers. Put ’em both for sale, $2500-3000 each, and fund a slightly newer car.
Time goes fast though; in six months the repairs won’t seem so expensive once they’ve “paid” for themselves and this hiccup is ancient history.
Either way, sorry to hear of the emptying of the wallet!
Well, the Matrix is an 03, is in poor cosmetic condition, and has 165k. The Focus is an 06 and has 90k. I’ve done online valuation of the cars and the Focus is worth three times the Matrix, at least on paper.
I always wondered how the Astras turned out, I almost grabbed a 3 door when they were doing the Saturn Funeral Sales Blowout Extravaganza back in 2009-2010. I liked the looks of it.
I ask myself this very question everytime I get in and start my ’91 Camry…. or should say everytime it wishes to start. lol
Seriously though… i usually run vehicles until the list of needed work is just too great, or they just die. Never cared about they look really, as long as the vehicle drives well I’m happy. Here in NY, rust of course usually takes out a car before it mechanically expires.
I think the CV joint and brakes on the Matrix isn’t anything to be upset about, if the mileage really is high (how high?). It’s reasonable to expect those parts will wear out.
The Focus, OTOH, seems to be giving a bit more trouble than I’d expect. I guess get rid of it; good think to know, though, in case I ever consider owning one.
The Focus is bad timing combined with being bolted to a car that’s hard to work on. The same parts on RWD cars are usually fairly easy. The thermostat on my Crown Vic was less than ten minutes to replace, as a point of comparison.
The Matrix issues are a factor of high mileage.
The Matrix is at 165,000. The Focus is at 90,000. I really, really wavered on keeping the Focus until I looked at what I could afford to pay cash for right now. It would get me about the same thing, only 2 years newer. Pass.
Well Mr. Gray,
I would not give up on the Focus for those small things. The Thermostat housing is common to all of the Foci of that era with the 2.0l. It seems they had a bad batch of housings. You should never have that problem again.
The alternator, well that is also common on the 2005-2007 due to the fact that Ford decided to both stick the exhaust manifold on the side facing the firewall and also decide that would be a great place for an alternator(despite the fact that heat kills them)
The power steering thing is plain and simple pure Ford, it happens to most Fords.
Thanks – this is all helpful to know. Hopefully I won’t go through another alternator before I naturally want to sell the car.
That was a very hard question to answer with Sandy the Voyager since my family owned it from 1995-2013. She had the 3.0 Litre with a 3 Speed and was built in Canada on 8-26-1994 around 2:45 PM. Why spend money on a “new” vehicle when you can keep spending money on a vehicle you have known for nearly two decades
Several components such as the EGR Valve lasted 10-15 years before needing to be replaced and the power steering pump was still the original. The tranny only needed to be replaced once and the engine never gave us problems. So my folks and I just kept spending a few hundred here and there since she just kept going and was so useful. The attachment played a decent part in us spending about $4,000 from 2008-2009 to fix all the rust, but the repairs needed touching up by late 2012. The most quirky repair I had to do was search high and low for some 3 speed tranny dipsticks that were not rusty and then cover one of their midsections with high temperature tape to increase their diameter. You see, by 2012 tranny fluid was escaping past the original dipstick and I could tell when she was getting low on tranny fluid because I would start smelling the fluid. If was planning on staying in New York I would not have fixed the rust since Sandy was one of the oldest vehicles in daily usage and finding parts was getting to be somewhat difficult to very difficult.
I drove Sandy about 5,000 miles across the country in 2012 and my only mechanical issues were an AC Belt wheel that I replaced in TN and an AC Belt that was too long which got replaced in OK. The Oil Pressure light also briefly came on while I was on NM 104. Unfortunately I ran a red light in the LA Metro Area due to a number of factors so I sold her last year. The radiator filler neck had hit the battery and broke so there was no way I could drive her more than a mile or so plus the upper frame rail was bent.
Oregon is full of rust free 2nd gen Voyagers so I will probably buy another one someday. These Minivans seem to have an appetite for AC components so just as well I live in Oregon.
Power steering pumps, alternators and thermostats are not serious problems, although fixing them may require too much labor. My RWD car’s engine compartment does not seem overstuffed. I can see the A/C compressor, the water pump and the alternator. Not sure if they are easy to get to though. No power steering pump to worry about.
Daily driver is now over 12 years old and has 248,000 km (155,000 miles) on the clock.
As long as it’s satisfied with routine maintenance (and usual wear and tear) it stays.
Still has its original discs, shocks and other suspension parts and complete exhaust system.
T-belt replacement once, at 150,000 km (93,750 miles). The starter died a few months ago, but that’s basically it.
It’s a diesel with turbo-intercooling and common rail injection. So apparently a turbo, glow plugs and injectors do last longer than warranty or 100,000 miles….
Yep my daily drive has 250,000 kms on it plus 2 years with the speedo off the turbo is fine as is the exhaust Ive done the brakes it needs lower control arm bushes but thats not a major I have a friend with a press and the heater fan is dead apparently thats typical though but it burns no oil between changes and gets around 45mpg in town and starts every time. The only reason its been off the road lately is the key broke off in the ignition no biggie it still went but Ive been unable to unlock the fuel cap so when it got low I parked it and waited for a new key from France and drove my $200 Nissan for 3 weeks.
I do believe in very accurate maintenance. Which means it goes to the dealership every 15,000 km (9,375 miles) for service, I exactly follow the instructions of the automaker.
And I certainly don’t call them “stealership”. Nonsens ! The guys do a good job at a fair price, never had the feeling I was ripped off. Not even close.
Furthermore a decent warming up and cooling down. And only excellent quality diesel fuel. Which is basically all diesel fuel here, can’t go wrong.
And DON’T drive a diesel like you’re an 85+ year old woman on her way to the local grocery store.
+1 on not driving a diesel like a grandmother. Warm it up gently, and cool it off your last mile or two home, but in between, *work it, baby!”
The opposite of the grandmother is the “white van man”.
Revving a stone cold diesel like there’s no tomorrow. No mercy for powertrain nor suspension. Agressive driving style and doing 100 mph with a diesel van, either with or without load.
So as long as you’re somewhere half way grandmother and the white van man you’re doing just fine.
I had a similar experience lately, with the Volvo needing a new alternator and battery. I can’t complain about the battery though, as it was the factory-installed battery and the car was built in August 2005 (early ’06). It didn’t strand me though, it was making a weird rrrrreeearrrrrr noise that was driving me nuts. It was a bad diode. Then about a week later, the Lincoln got a new battery too!
But both cars are paid for, and that’s the most important thing. 🙂
Ditto. The pickup needed an alternator and battery over the winter. It is good for another 110k.
My first thought was that $2400 would get you a lovely semi-custom bicycle. They are really easy to fix too.
I have a hard time hanging on to cars until they are “high mileage.” I typically don’t put many miles on cars – I think we average only about 5000 miles a year – so I usually get bored with the car and sell it to find something NEW and EXCITING when the car reaches 80,000 miles or so.
Heh, yeah, my city is becoming more bike friendly every year, but it’s still not so bike friendly that I could ditch my car. And then we have real winters here.
If I were rich I’d buy a car every year or two. I’m not, and I have a kid who will be off to college in 2015, so I drive old cheap cars.
Kids can take loans for college, you know. I help friends with finances, and college funding is a big stressor for a mother of a 5-year old. I advise them to have their finances in order (including retirement) before they offer tuition assistance. And anything you cosign for is yours! Haha. Not trying to tell you how to live at all… just a rant, sorry 🙁
I had a 97 Jetta with 185,000 miles on it. The thrust bearings were gone and the oil alarm went off constantly. The foam blew out of the vent from the blend doors so the heat was only so-so. It needed the windshield seal replaced and had probably a dozen zip ties scattered around it holding various parts on it.
It still ran like a champ and I liked the car but my carpet kept getting mysteriously wet so I looked under the car and poked at the “rust proofing” and my finger went clean through.
I pulled out the carpet and found large holes all over the floor where those stupid plastic stoppers had been (what the hell was VW thinking with those things?) and that was a deal breaker. I knew it could be fixed but it just wasnt worth my time. I sold the car for slightly more than scrap value to a kid who fixed it. I saw it on craigslist a few months later for a few hundred more than I sold it to him for.
Nodding in agreement with you there Jason. The ONLY rust on my mercedes W124 is where the factory drilled 30mm holes in the rear inner wheel arches to facilitate inspection and rust treatment. Moisture gets behind the rubber bungs and corrodes the bloody holes out. You only find out about it when the bungs disappear inside the body and you’re staring at a ragged 50mm hole. If Benz had left this area well alone, there would not have been a rusting problem. I’m passing on any welding here; planning on aluminium plates and 5200 adhesive. Job done, what ho and should pass the scrutiny of the MOT engineers in October.
The time to get rid of a 1995MY+ luxury car is RIGHT BEFORE it starts throwing codes for things that are expensive to fix. Most old cars have fan sites where you can read up on the typical expiration dates for components and go by that.
For pre-1995 cars my rule of thumb is to hang on until the transmission starts to go. If you still like the car rebuild or replace the tranny and enjoy several more years. If you don’t dump it before doing the T/M work because otherwise you’ll never get your money out of it.
Places without emissions testing seem to become the Island of Lost Toys for post 1996 cars throwing codes.
I’m in the process of learning that lesson the hard way. Last month I bought a very clean 1996 out of state and have not been able to get it to pass the emission check yet. It is on its 4th CEL code and I’m pretty close to being able to get an exemption (spend $855 or more on the problem) to clear the codes.
I passed on a similar 1994 with a few less miles but in-op A/C and a brake noise but because it was at a dealer in state they were responsible for it passing emissions.
When it comes time to buy my son a car next year I’m going to make sure that it is old enough that it doesn’t have to pass emissions.
Our daughter just got the automatic transmission rebuilt on the 99 Accord we gave her three years ago. She had been putting up with it for close to a year. Car’s still running fine, I’m sure it has 250k miles on it at least, since it had just over 200k when we gave it to her. It’s costing her over a grand, but she wants to keep the car.
Appearance-wise it’s fine. Her first boyfriend was a car detailer and taught her quite a bit, so she knows what to do to keep one up.
Cars usually enter my possession after other people give up on them. 😉
As I type this I gaze lovingly out the window at my main driver, an ’82 Dodge d150. The previous owner (the son of the original owner) gave up after blowing the head gasket between the middle two cylinders. He said it was tired and smoky anyway. I swooped in and scooped it up for $300 and dropped in a good slant six with about 80k on it.
That was twelve years ago (time sure flies don’t it?) For about five of those years I commuted 80 miles a day in it too. I used to love it when people would say things like: “You drive that old truck that far everyday? And you don’t even have a cell phone?!? You can’t do that!!” Well I DO do that. I’ve got a contrarian streak you could land a DC3 on.
My ’65 Valiant has a similar story, and it’s no garage queen either. It gets driven almost as much as the truck.
Now if you’re not mechanically inclined, no biggie, not everybody can be. You do appreciate old cars or you wouldn’t be here! If you are mechanically inclined, though, I’d say sell at least one of those little modern hatch-things and pick up something cool from the sixties, seventies, or eighties. You’ll love it. Somewhere there’s a neglected Dart or Maverick or Nova (or Corona or 244) that needs you!
For me, it’s factoring the known – what I have – against the unknown – what I’m considering buying (used). Have heard many stories over the years of people tired of spending money on repairs on their old car, only to buy a brand new car and then have it in the shop for just one issue after another. Or from having to take it back multiple times for the same issue. Haven’t had car payments (on a pre-owned, not new car) in 25-30 years.
The 15 1/2 y.o. DD Dodge is soon to turn over 222K miles and still going strong. I do check AutoTrader and Craigslist from time to time and always find more than a few (used) cars I’d like to get, but just not ready to spend the money to replace what has been an extremely dependable and reliable car. Seems like I can recall back in the ’60’s Dodge advertised their line of cars as “The Dependables.” So, I wonder, do I keep my car until 250K miles, or maybe 300K miles? I often think of world-famous Irv Gordon and his 3 million mile Volvo P1800. Shouldn’t anybody willing to spend the money keeping their old car on the road be able to do something similar? In the meantime, it probably wouldn’t hurt to have AAA or a towing company phone number in your phone in the event of the unforeseen.
I should have mentioned that I bought my current DD right about 14 years ago with only 7K miles. This is the first car I’ve kept and driven for such a long time. And, the only car which I’ve put over 200K miles on. Part of the reason I bought it (with a stick) is because I knew it was capable of 35-40 mpg highway. My overall average is right at 36 mpg. And the reason for continuing to keep it is that the repairs have been minimal. It’s a Stratus with the same 2.0L and 5-speed as the Neon. Just offers a bit more interior room and trunk space. The other reason I’m happy to keep driving it is because it offers better all around visibility that most newer cars.
Well Jim, my 2001 Focus is still going strong, I don’t plan on giving up on it for another 2-3 years.
In February it got new stainless exhaust, battery and alternator. I did the alternator myself (in sub freezing temperature) and it really was an awful job, it took disconnecting the motor mounts and levering the motor forward with a 2X4 to get it out from behind the motor.
Usually I keep my vehicle far too long, I’m hoping for 300,000 km from the Focus and 200,000 from our 2007 Caravan. I kept our old Windstar too long, one day when I was doing the annual brake job my wife said to me “you know, not everything has to be a project” and I realized it was time.
Sometimes removing one or two subframe bolts is easier than removing the engine mounts, but it depends on the car.
Doug, yup, my mechanic called the alternator job “awful” too. Fortunately, he has the equipment to lift the engine with less fuss.
Jim: you are the type who leaves the wrenching to the pro. With that in mind you should be able to boil it down to numbers. Leases or payments for the kinds of car you are driving run in the $180 to $250 per month. Let’s run this example for 1 car at $200 per month. Ideally you pay this money to yourself into a savings account with the nickname “car” while you are driving an existing car that is already paid for.That puts $12000 over 5 years in this account. With that money earmarked for a car you have options. Let’s say the focus gives you trouble. You can trade it in and use most of the 12 large. That certainly will give you a shot at a near new vehicle. Of course you don’t skip a beat and keep paying yourself on a monthly basis.
Let’s say the Matrix is shedding some CV joints and struts, needs new tires too but holds up quite well otherwise. You could do the same as with the Focus or decide to dip into the account up to (you choose) 1 year worth of savings. If that buys your 3 years of operation you are way ahead.
In today’s society people rather “pay the man” than paying themselves.
I am not as hard nosed as necessary to keep up with the above example. We happened to refinance our mortgage and used some equity to pay for the minivan in 2005. Now I am shopping for a car (Pontiac Vibe is on the short list) because I find myself driving this beast mostly by myself. I am stubborn with the money so it will be a cash deal.
Also I try to project into the future. I think I will be doing well with a car with about 100000 miles on the clock because my yearly miles dropped from 20000 to about 12000. That will eliminate a lot of depreciation compared to a near new car. Also the fuel savings fit quite well into the “car” account.
In your case I would sell the Focus using Craigslist, then I would go shopping. If there is not enough cash handy a loan up to 2 years or so should be acceptable as long as you also feed a “car” account a little bit. When the loan payments are done you increase the savings.
Good luck, Jim. Why not put a Miata next to the Matrix.
I am done buying new cars. I hope to edge that 6-8-year-old thing to 1-3 years old in the coming years. One thing that will complicate matters is that I have two high-school-age sons who will be heading to college starting in 18 months. My sons and my money will be going to university.
That indeed makes it difficult. Your priorities are obviously with your sons’ education.
Cheap motoring may require driving slightly damaged cars…….
My 300k mile 86 Jetta has been testing me lately. I knew the fuel pumps were on their last legs for awhile now, they were getting really loud and it got to the point where the car would not start hot, only after it cooled down. And the fuel mileage was not what it was. I changed them and the fuel filter (black gas drained out of the old one). Started it and after 5 minutes ran like crap. Then it wouldn’t start again. Hit the fuel distributor with a hammer and it started right up. Filled it with Chevron and a bottle of Techron injector cleaner. Gave it an Italian tune up (85-90 in 4th gear for a few miles) and it ran better. Then it wouldn’t start again. Put in my spare fuel pump relay, started right up. Ran great for 2 days. Then wouldn’t start. Fuel pump fuse blown, that 27 year old fuse was crumbled away to nothing, it came out in pieces. Installed new fuse. Runs great. That was 2 days ago, so far, so good. While I was changing pumps, I noticed brake fluid over the tire, so I replaced both rear wheel cylinders. Also noticed a torn outer cv boot, I will get to that soon. I hope it behaves itself now! What was even more fun was the first two fuel pumps I ordered were wrong, and I had to wait 10 days for one, 12 days for the second, and a week for the correct one. You have to have determination to keep an old car running, but aside from time I only invested $150.00 in parts. And you need a spare vehicle. I’m not giving up yet! No rust and it still looks good, and used locally only at this point. I use my newer truck for road trips.
Then wouldn’t start. Fuel pump fuse blown, that 27 year old fuse was crumbled away to nothing, it came out in pieces. Installed new fuse. Runs great.
That fuse was probably 90% of the problem all along. Had the same problem with my Renault years ago. No start. Nudge the 20amp fuse with my finger. Started right up. Pulled out the fuse: one of those ceramic things with with the end caps and link all in one piece. The ends of the fuse were pitted and burned. Put in new fuse. Problem solved.
The pumps were bad for sure, they were original and the one under the car was leaking a little bit. You could hear them growling from 10 feet away. When the pressure gets low the fuel distributor goes in “cold running” mode all the time because that requires, strange as it seems, less fuel pressure. So then it won’t start until it cools down because there is not enough fuel pressure to cycle the fuel distributor. The relay did go, the spare worked and I retried the other one after fuse replacement and it still was dead. I think the reason the fuel distributor got plugged is the higher pressure stirred the gunk up in it, It ran fine until it warmed up and hit “warm running” mode, it’s probably a long time since pressure was high enough for it to cycle, and had to clean/clear out. But your right about the condition of the fuse, today I’m going to pick up a set and just change them all. Cheap insurance.
…about the condition of the fuse, today I’m going to pick up a set and just change them all. Cheap insurance.
I picked up a complete set for the Renault , which was only about a year old, when I saw how fragile the things were. A year or two later, a small one, 5 amp maybe, failed. Looking at it, it didn’t look blown, and the ends weren’t pitted. Seems that the link had just fatigued from vibration and cracked.
Jim, I look to your experience with your Matrix as inspiration for us keeping my girlfriend’s Matrix as long as possible. We just put rear brakes and a front wheel bearing on it, and I hope at 120K it has loads more miles left, though she drives somewhat “jackrabbit” style. The car has delivered almost flawless service since new in late 2002. I hope you squeeze some more life out of yours.
You’re lucky the alternator and battery “let” you travel to a destination of some sort, the alternator in my S10 stopped us almost immediately.
I’ve always felt that unless you do your own repairs and maintenance, keeping a car until it’s reached its last mile isn’t always a winning financial proposition. I physically am no longer able to do the things – like stretching brake return springs – that I used to be able to do. So now I have to rely on someone else. I used to read that the time to replace a car would be when your annual repair expenses exceeded your depreciation expenses. Is this still relevant?
This QOTD is very timely for us, we have some rather large expenses coming up, and a new car isn’t one of them. I hope.
This is my second Toyota Matrix, actually. My first was a 2003 base model with the five speed. The transmission in that one failed at about 75,000 miles. And then about 15,000 miles later, I ran a red light and somebody T-bones me and that was the end of my car. And then I went out and bought another 2003, except this time it was the top-of-the-line XRS. This one has the automatic transmission. I bought that one at about the same miles my other one was that when it was wrecked. I put on 75,000 miles since then. I had to replace the front control arms late last year, but other than that and the recent repairs, it’s just been routine maintenance like brakes. Truth be told, the Focus is a much more fun car to drive in either of the two Matrixes – but the Matrixes are so much better looking, and bigger inside. I would have another Matrix.
Oh I know, Jim, I have read your previous posts with interest. It was sad to see the totaled red car. I appreciate that the Focus is fun to drive, but the Matrix is the one that we have experience with. I’d have another Matrix in a flash, it’s so useful for us, and is the most reliable car I’ve experienced. The components don’t seem to be stuffed in the car without regard to service. But with the Matrix gone from our market, maybe a Mazda 3 next time.
Good luck with your cars!
A well maintained Toyota is practically bulletproof. There are absolute scads of them on the road in Canada. It is so popular that Toyota has kept making the old body style Corolla is Matrix spec especially for Canada. There is an enormous used market for the, too, and loads of them around since they’s always been so popular.
GM stuff has always been popular with my Quebec relatives, and up at the home town there are Pontiac Vibes all over the place. They have always loved Ponchos and most didn’t know the car was a Toyota clone.
Until the wheels fall off. With a damaged title (thanks, MN) from near-invisible hail damage, the resale value is shot anyway.
I just made a similar comment. It may take a little more effort to check one over but there are excellent deals to be found.
Was that reply meant for me? I’m not sure–it seemed kind of relevant, but kind of not.
On topic, though, I bought the ’02 Mazda Tribute on Dec 31 ’10 (Jan 1 ’11 for tax purposes) with 111K miles. I’ve almost rolled over to 139K since then, which puts it at …8400 miles a year. Aside from a few minor electrical gremlins, the rear passenger door upholstery falling off, and the beginnings of rust on the rocker panels, everything has been A-OK.
I’d like to think that 150-175K would not be an unrealistic expectation. Making it to 200K would be awesome, but I won’t be heartbroken if that doesn’t happen. Plus given my current rate of driving, it would take another 7+ years to get there. Keep my first car until I’m almost 30? We’ll have to see…
I wanted to say that I was thinking along the same lines as you. The summary with your Tribute confirms that.
Recently I am obsessing what to do next. My boys have their own vehicles, one of them moved out and left his dog with us. My yearly mileage dropped significantly and I am driving this Minivan with 170K almost always alone.
I would like a nicer car for around 7000, but I don’t want to share a cabin with the dog. A station wagon or hatch would solve the riddle. A slightly damaged one would do….There is an ’03 Focus ZXW, 62000 miles asking $6500 and showing signs of previous bodywork. This is worth looking at.
It’s got to be the ‘perfect storm,’ where a combination of events make retaining the machine no longer viable. My ’97 Camry has 225K on it and has been a faithful performer but I know there’s clouds on the horizon. It has the original muffler, starting motor, alternator, CV joints and transmission; the only components I’ve replaced are the obvious ones: timing belts, tires, batteries, brakes and the like. I’m at a stage of life where I’m not cranking the miles on it [<12k/yr] so I'm inclined to stick it out. Nothing I've seen to replace it has motivated me to do otherwise.
When I was in the garage business, the only cars that routinely came in with astronomical mileage were Toyotas, Volvos and Hondas that hadn’t had the bag run off them. Your Camry will go a lot longer yet.
Toyotas and Hondas are not that surprising. I’m surprised to hear Volvo since Euro cars have a reputation for unreliability and expensive repair parts. Maybe Volvos break that stereotype.
Since I do my own maintenance and repairs I don’t usually think of cost of upkeep versus cost to replace the vehicle, but whether things are breaking faster than I can reasonably keep up with them. That’s what caused me to give up on my van and buy my pickup to replace it.
Another way to look at it is, when the floor rots out it’s probably time. I’ve welded floors in three vehicles: my van, my brother’s Roadmaster and my friend’s Jeep. In each case that only gave them another two years of service before their owners got fed up with them.
I think many people are way too conservative as to when to get rid of a car.
If you like the car and it isn’t rusted out as far as I’m concerned you can justify fixing it until the monthly cost of repairs starts to approximate the monthly payments on a replacement car.
I had a 2001 Pontiac Gran Prix. I traded it in at 180,000 miles, we had replaced the intake gaskets a few months before and it was seeping again. Mechanic said the block was warped. It also needed an oil pan gasket which would have cost me close to $800.00. I traded it in on an Chevy HHR which so far has not given me many problems..
After almost 8+1/2 years, I Wifey and I called it quits on our 1992 LeBaron convertible when the engine went out while I was driving home one beautiful September afternoon in 2007.
That Chrysler was a beautiful car, but was problematic most of the years we owned it, but it was just a toy, so we hung on to it, because it was fun and had a bit of class.
After we sold our 2007 MX5 almost 2 years ago, no more toys for at least til I retire and lose my lousy commute.
I ran an ’05 Focus wagon 155,000 miles from new. Passed it on to my wife’s uncle when I started to see a bit of rust. I had one serious problem with it (it ate an ABS sensor while under warranty) but otherwise it was a tank. Based on Uncle’s recent problems, though, I picked the right time to say goodbye.
Had a Nissan truck with over 300k. Put it in auto class for a head gasket and let them fix a batch of things. The new engine cost to stop their leaks and the engine froze after 1300 miles. I couldn’t do it again. I normally stop if things seem to cascade.
My S10 was sold because it no longer fit my needs. Would not have sold it otherwise. Bought an Olds that was a mistake and am now back with what I think is a strong, slow, dependable truck. A 3.slow 95 4runner. So long as I can keep up with it, it will have a home. I am not a mechanic but have been reading yota tech.
I think you can almost always fix something and be better off than buying another. The 4runner is at 200kmiles and I fully expect to exceed 300. I also expect to be much better at working on it.
What would really be helpful is a listing of the standard car components (alternator, starter, etc) and the relative difficulty in replacing these on all models. I’d be much more inclined to buy a car, new or used, that was generally easier to work on than one whose motor mounts needed to be removed to replace the alternator. A car that’s easy to work on can be kept much longer.
I’m not sure with my Regal. It’s a 95 3.1 with more than 180,000 miles, There are some issues – overdrive kicks out after it’s been driven in warm weather for a while and it does this “stutter” going up gentle grades. I just dropped 400 bucks into it for suspension work, but that’s the most I’ve spent on it in a year or two. It always starts. The engine leaks oil. Stuff’s falling off inside. It’s a lot like my 79 Malibu but also as reliable.
All that being said – if a 3.8 Regal from 2000-2004 shows up in town, it might be go time. Most around here have been beat to crap with higher mileage than I already have.
While the Buick isn’t THAT hard to work on and parts are all over, I do miss the 1992 Taurus’s easy engine access. I could actually see the battery. I sold that at 250,000 on the original transmission (I was meticulous about having it serviced) but it was time to go. The oil pump was going on the fritz, the suspension was a PITA all the time and the tranny was making wailing noises.
I tend to be a bit fussy about cars. I like them to be 100% functional. If they meet my needs, I can tolerate some repairs, but will not tolerate a hanger queen. When rust starts showing up, my tolerance for repairs to keep them 100% functional deteriorates rapidly.
Had a 78 Merc Zephyr bought new. In the shop every month for two years with various malfunctions. Never really paid anything for all the repairs, and resolved not to start paying, so the Zephyr went away after 2 years. Ran into the poor sod who bought it a few months later. First thing out of his mouth was “you have trouble with it?” I went through the list and said “how about you”. So far, he had had the carb rebuilt and the A/C had quit.
Had about 1 repair/yr on the Renault, until the rust really started getting to it after 6 years. byebye. Saw it 2 years later. Not much left of the fenders.
Mazda GLC was excellent until it’s 12th year. Ran like a champ with only 85K miles, but dash lights out, CV joint failing, metal pipe in cooling system leaking. Tinworm said “no money for repairs”.
98 Civic. zero rust after 15 years, thanks to sitting in the garage while a string of beaters took the road salt. Ran like a champ at 110K miles. By the book was due for a timing belt, and the shocks were about done. If I had not retired, it would have gotten the belt and shocks and still be a daily driver. But I did retire. Had a different car for road trips, so was not running the Civic enough to even recover enough in gas money difference vs the SUV to pay for the insurance and license, let alone the belt and shocks. Gone last September.
02 Escort. Rod knock loud enough to raise the dead. CEL from leaking idle air valve. Second set of struts about done. Brake rotors warped. E brake frozen. Occasional ABS fault light. Became expendable due to sharp reduction in miles driven per year. byebye at 85K miles.
08 Taurus X. perfect for road trips, terrible as daily driver after I sold the Civic, which put it on the keep/sell bubble. Faint rod knock. Tach that liked to give crazy readings. Battery due for replacement. Kiss of death was occasional twitch in power steering, a precursor to rack failure and $1000 repair in the T-Rex. byebye at 41K miles.
Whoaaaaaa!! This is an easy question. I’ve owned lots of cars with high miles that were low on maintenance/repairs and NEVER broke down on the highway. I would have a very low tolerance level unless: 1)You really love these cars (doesn’t sound like it) or 2) You are stuck with payments (but you are not) or 3) Car is rare or desireable so has potential to appreciate (these don’t). I’d dump them both NOW (sunk costs mean nothing for necessary future investment—old business school principle—without upside potential—future worries, headaches and repairs). Sell now–no payments–buy WHATEVER you can afford from list of latest quality and repair record report research. Buy simple, easy to maintain cars from original owners with documented repair records from day 1–nothing less–and cars that are fully depreciated that require little or no dealer intervention.
I don’t keep them long enough to have any real issues, at least from a lot of miles. I kept my ’93 Grand Cherokee until 1999, and it didn’t have any real issues, it was just tired after almost 80K miles. My Pit Bull mix bouncing around in the back didn’t help, there was a lot of scratches on the door panels and handles. It’s only real problem ever was the A/C condensor cracked every 18 months, like clockwork. It was always covered under warranty, so it was no big deal. I wish I would have kept it for a couple more years, as the 1999 GC I replaced it with was so annoying (Steering wheel was too far to the right) and uncomfortable (Seat killed my back) (That taught me to take a longer test drive than 15 minutes) I traded it 18 months later. A friend of mine has bought a couple of my old cars and he drives them into the ground. He didn’t buy the old GC. It would have been interesting to see it as it aged and rusted to death.
Very nearly gave up my car, a E220 W124, just a few months ago. You know the drill. Remove personal bits, registration plate and tax disc. Parked in a low roofed concrete carpark. Facing forward, Key would not turn in the ignition, gearbox and wheels lock in forward. No way a tow truck was going to get it out of there. Struggled for an hour to remove the whole ignition lock; luckily I failed. Last chance was the last genuine mercedes key parked at home. Two hours home and back. Quick prayer, key in the ignition, turn, it worked; car started! Drove home with parts of the dismantled dashboard sitting in my lap. The lock had broken in three when I got round to replacing it. A very close call indeed. Ironically, I had just returned from the tax office to shell out U$ 300 on road tax.
Here has always been my advice for anyone wanting to wrench on old cars, and this comes from someone who spent a lot of time in the car repair business. If it is cost you you less than $2000 a year in fixing to keep your car safely on the road, and you like the car, keep spending it. You’ll never get anything else that costs that little. If you have had the car more than five years it owes you nothing anyway, so just maximize.
You are nowhere near these car crapping out. The Matrix is capable of a very long service life as they are really good basic cars. The Focus is the one I would be wary of as that generation tends to start nickle and diming at about this time.
I’m definitely under that threshold on both cars in CY 2014. And I’m all about cheap motoring. Because I don’t fix my own, however, the hassle cost, which is harder to quantify, does sometimes spike.
This QOTD was so timely for me. Canucknucklehead’s opinion right here was influential to my decision.
I happened to not like my minivan anymore for more than a year since my transportation needs have changed. It is still a good vehicle using Canucknucklead’s guideline.
Anyway, my choices boiled down to either a Ford Focus ZXW or a Pontiac Vibe (sister model to the Matrix). A Vibe popped up locally on Craigslist and the ad was taken down 2 hours later because I bought it.
One thing though, Canucknucklehead: $2000 per year for someone who turns his own wrenches is quite generous in my opinion. I did a few things myself on the minivan but my average monthly maintenance and repair expense has been less than $60 or $720 per year over the 9 years of ownership. However, if you include depreciation then I exceeded the $2000 per year slightly. But that is still o.k. because my miles per year were higher than average as well.
With the Vibe I am targeting $1200 per year for depreciation, maintenance and repair for the next 6 to 7 years. This includes an allowance for inflation.
Thank you both, Jim and Canucknuckelhead for this discussion.
I’ll fix mechanical stuff until the rust becomes a serious problem, and then drive it till the next major mechanical issue.
Our last car was a 1990 Dodge Shadow that my wife bought brand new before I met her. When we got our first place together in 1994, I had a 1992 Nissan King Cab. After 6 months we realized that we didn’t really need two vehicles, and since the Dodge was paid for, I sold the Nissan and got enough to pay off what I owed on it. We kept the Dodge until 2003 and in that time it held up pretty well with only regular maintenance items like tires, brakes, and a timing belt. In early 2003 I noticed an occasional twitch in the steering, and then one day the transmission died when I was parking the car at work. After that we scrapped the Dodge. Besides the transmission, it was rusting out and it had over 300 000 km on the clock, so it didn’t owe us anything. Since then we just rent a car when we need one. Our apartment and both of our jobs are close to transit, and I bike when the weather’s fine. Besides, most of the stores and restaurants we frequent are within easy walking or cycling distance, and you can get a cab any time. Maybe one day we’ll buy another car, but at this point we get along fine without one.
Excellent QOTD Jim. I’ve given up on two of my cars:
* 1986 Honda Accord bought in 2001 for NZ$1,200. 6 months, 2 engines (long story) and $3,000 later I gave up on it and sold it for $1,200. I didn’t even care when the new owner destroyed it in an accident (he was ok) a month later. I did care that he hadn’t finished paying me for it, but that’s another story.
* 1994 Nissan Laurel bought in December 2009 for $2,250. By July 2010, I hadn’t had a single day where everything functioned correctly. It had ongoing issues with the injector pump, injectors, glow plugs, radiator fittings, oil leaks, etc etc. In late June the almost-final straw came when I awoke one very frosty morning to find body-filler I didn’t know about in the roof had lifted and cracked, revealing a heavily dented rusting roof underneath… It cost me over $3,000+ in the 6 months, still refused to run well, and I’d run out of funds. Then, in late July, I was on my daily 140km commute to work and about 10km from the office, the head gasket blew. It was at that exact point I gave up on it and decided to drive it until it stopped for good. I made it another 7-8km before I couldn’t see trough the steam and had to fill the radiator. I was so over the whole thing I didn’t wait for it to cool down and pointed it towards my office. 100m from work it stopped outside the diesel specialists who’d worked on it. I coasted into their carpark and said “It’s broken. I hate it.” They confirmed the head was cracked, and offered me $400 scrap value for the whole car. I gladly accepted. I’ve never, ever, been so happy to give up on a car!!
I replaced it with a 1997 Nissan Laurel diesel with 180,000km on it. But this time I paid more and got a one owner one with good service history. Nearly 4 years later, it’s still my ultra-reliable daily driver, now sitting on 326,000km, serviced every 10,000km and still running like new. This past February was the first time it had any issue, when the original 1997 coolant hoses started blowing one by one. By the time the new hose kit had arrived, it had blown 5 hoses and cracked two engine block hose fittings, but was running fine and hadn’t stranded me anywhere. It cost $1,500 for the hoses/fittings/some other minor issues, but after so many kilometres of faultless service, there was no way I was going to give up on it. Looking forward to the next 326,000km!
I dont get involved with late model FWD vehicles so my cars are easier to work on and therefore easier to justify keeping. I love taking rusty old cars and giving them second lives but I would never consider spending countless hours and money keeping a late model economy car on the road.
I drove my 77 Grand Prix the longest (from 30K miles to 202K) and when I took it off the road 2 years ago, the engine was tired but still running (barely), the interior was “well used” and there was some rust in the lower quarters. Now it has a fresh new 400 and I have the parts it needs to freshen up the interior when it comes home from the body shop with new candy apple red paint.
My next longest is my 96 Ram 1500. I bought it new in 1996 and now has 175K on it with no real problems. I rebuilt the transmission at around 120K and like the Pontiac, I will keep it until it falls apart and then it will live on as a hot rod of some form. I repainted it at around 100K and did a traditional flame job.
And finally my DD 69 Charger has 225K on it, where I can only claim the last 25K miles. I want at least 300K on it before I rebuild the engine but it does need some bodywork soon.
Since I live in rust-free SoCal, rust is obviously not something that is an issue with cars–old or otherwise.
I will not sell a car that is about to experience a major failure to a stranger–without full disclosure of known issues. I think it is hugely unfair to lay a “lit fuse” on an unsuspecting car buyer. Sure, some sellers use rationalizations like “Hey, what does he expect with a ten year old car…?” and similar arguments, but the bottom line is, we are screwing our neighbor, and as a Christian, and as a human being, I believe that is simply wrong. You can also think of it as bad “karma:….such silliness will always find its way back to you.
At the end of 2013 I was given a 1990 MB 300E that had accumulated 240k miles. I accepted it without even laying eyes on it….thinking perhaps I could have a LeMons racer, or perhaps just have some fun with it.
When I finally got to see the car, I was told “it leaked”. Indeed it did…oil, coolant, AND ATF. Once I got it home, I found that oil and coolant were leaking from the head gasket, the ATF from the front input shaft seal, and a few other places. In addition, the car had bald tires, heavily worn interior, worn front suspension, and non-op air conditioning. In short, virtually nothing on this car was right…other than the fact that it “ran” as as long as one added fluids every 200 miles or so. I kept the newish battery, and accepted $500 from a scrapper. Everybody won.
If a car can’t go further than say 500 miles at a time…without the need to open the hood and poor in some liquid (s), it is time to scrap it…part it out, or sell to a new owner with full disclosure of known issues.
+1
For me, it’s generally been about the balance between the cost (both $ and time, as I try to do most maintenance and repair work myself) and how much the vehicle holds my interest. I started to write out a list by vehicle in this comment and realized it would A) be way too long, and B) might be better off as a COAL series.
At any rate, the only one we’ve gotten rid of ‘early’ due to mechanical issues was an ’88 Chevy Spectrum (horrid little thing, sold after only a year). Most of the others (other than two that were totaled in accidents) were kept for well over 100K, some pushing well into +200K territory.
I usually keep my cars one expensive repair too long 🙁
That being said, our 2001 Taurus bought new now has approximately 110,000 mile on it.
Somewhat low miles given its age I guess
Repairs the last couple of years have totaled about $2000, so it hasn’t been outrageously expensive to keep on the road.
I planned on driving it into the ground if possible,as it still runs well.
The one thing that has happened to the car,and now has me in the first stages of thinking of a replacement is…RUST.
I wash and wax the car on a regular basis, but this last Minnesota winter has really taken its toll. I have developed an almost morbid fascination with watching how quickly the rear wheel wells , and inner doorskins are rusting away.
I give up when the body falls off the chassis. And with Mopars that’s serious. 🙂
I only own two computer cars. A 2013 300 SRT and a 09 Challenger SRT, so I can pretty much fix anything on the others.
When to give up for me is a tough call as I generally don’t. My 80 Honda, yes, because the cam lobes started to wear and I was PO’d about that. My 86 626 after 20 years and 375,000 miles. Engine rebuild, maybe. Some body damage I couldn’t handle was the reason.
Now here’s one to chew. My wife blew out a hose behind the Vulcan engine in her Sable wagon and took some time to get off the highway. Towed 120 miles home to me to look at. Compression gauge out and sparks plugs out. Right away water shot out of #1 with 2 and 3 OK as it was replaced 5 years ago. Front bank #4 fine with 5 and 6 showing oil and compression near 95. What to do? Throw away? Take to Ford? God no. Repair myself? Body and interior in great shape with new tires and all new suspension/brakes by me 10 months earlier.
I choose repair which took 3 weeks and near the end had my wife breathing down my back about a new car. I didn’t cave. Engine got two rebuilt heads, new timing set, new cam sensor, new crank sensor, water pump only 12 months old, leaky oil pan gasket replaced and every part, bolt, nut cleaned before re-installation. The car runs great and mileage back up to 23-24 mpg versus 20 before. Oh, this 98 Sable has 188,850 miles on it now. The engine work finished 8 weeks ago.
I don’t call it unless I have no choice especially since I don’t deal with labor costs. All the repairs from engine to complete suspension in the last 12 months cost about $1000 in parts for a now refurbished wagon.
I fix all my own cars also. I have the two computer cars that I’m learning how to fix. Them things are nightmares with all the wires and hoses. But I’m learning. I had to replace the engine a couple months ago on the Challenger thanks to some overly ambitious driving by one of my granddaughters. I did it myself with the help of her mechanic daddy.
Tough call here, JG. It seems that I have gone from one extreme to another. When I was young, I would routinely fall out of love with what I was driving and in love with some new find about every six months. Now, I have reached the other extreme, where I tend to keep cars too long. As long as it looks good and drives well, I tend to spend cash for that one next repair. Sometimes this is a good idea, sometimes not . . .
Case in point, my 93 Crown Victoria. It has been a good high school car for my three kids, but the youngest is preparing to graduate. The car has started on a course of minor annoying failures but nothing catastrophic – things like a broken odometer, broken gas cap release button and now something is wrong with the gearshift. I am torn between keeping it as a beater until something expensive fails, or selling it for a pittance. After 8 or 9 years, it certainly doesn’t owe me anything at this point.
My knee jerk reaction is to replace the Focus now but keep the Matrix, which is likely to last longer with less expense. You won’t be in better shape to buy another car when the Focus is worth less and you have a kid in college. My tastes run towards 10-12 year old cars of longtime elderly owners. Buicks and Grand Marquis’ seem to be in the fat part of that zone these days.
It might be fun to drive a Grand Marquis for a year or two. Well, except for the gas mileage.
I’m not in love with the Focus, despite it being a blast to drive. I do have heartstrings for the stupid Matrix with its dings, dents, and paint challenges.
A good friend of mine is suffering from this dilemma right now. His 218k mile ’99 CRV is showing all of the effects of 15 years in N.E. Ohio, the brake lines are crusty and ready to let go, the front struts are shot, the front control arm bushings are all shot, etc. He’s leaning towards replacing it, and seeing as he’s one of those people that has a hard time making decisions I’m going to give him a push 😀
As to the original post, I think it might be time to sell the Focus while it still has some value in it, and either find something comparable for a similar price, or use that as a down payment on something newer. It’s the devil you don’t know as opposed to the devil you do, but it sounds a little worrying. The Matrix sounds like it’s worth keeping, even given the high mileage. Generally I tend to be a member of the “probably keep them too long” camp, as that’s what my parents did when I was a child. I’ve only ever gotten rid of three cars:
-’82 Chevy Malibu. Bought as a $800 beater when I had just graduated college but didn’t yet have a full-time job. V6, air conditioning broken, and genrally ratty, but it was pretty reliable for the price and it looked good once I had a cheap respray done. About 2 years later, it needed a brake overhaul, was dieseling badly on shutdown, and I had a better paying job, so I let it go for $350 to a guy who owned two other A-bodies and wanted a parts car. Never stranded me in two years which isn’t bad for less than a grand.
-’03 Mercury Marauder. I had just chased down a couple of issues and it was running strong, but it had 115K and I was starting to get nervous about other things breaking, plus the gas mileage was killing me with a 20+ mile one-way commute to work at the time. I sold it while it presented well and the value would be maximized. Still kick myself for that, I should have kept it–loved that thing.
-’00 Olds Alero. My wife’s car for nine years, the (somewhat) faithful Alero had a litany of small problems along the way but esacaped any major issues. But, by the end of 2012, with almost 180K miles on the clock, it was showing its age. Clearcoat was shot, body damage to several panels, interior was beat, 3 out of 4 window regulators were gone, and more worryingly, I had to top up the oil and antifreeze every time I went anywhere or I’d risk getting a temperature or low oil warning. After dealing with that for a couple months, it was time to let it go. Donated to a charity who auctioned it, I’m guessing for scrap value. Made me sad but it would have taken way more than it was worth to even get it back to “rough functional driver” status.
The ’97 Crown Vic I’m driving right now may be a test of this in a couple years. Not because anything is wrong–on the contrary, it’s great shape for a ’97 and only has 103K miles–but after only a year I’m kind of tired of it. But it didn’t cost me anything and the expensive stuff (both cats and an A/C issue) were dealt with recently, so it should be good for as long as the transmission holds up. It’s reliable, rugged, and comfortable, but it just doesn’t move me. I suppose there are worse problems to have.
5 years ago my wife and I got on a kick where we were ready to replace our college cars. She bought a black 2008 Saab to replace her 2000 Neon and I bought a silver 2009 Saab to replace my 93 subaru impreza which was headed to my little sister.
Now almost 5 years later, the impreza is back in our driveway and I prefer driving it to the silver saab. I just don’t get all that worried parking it at the store, etc.
We will likely keep the subaru until something costly comes up and then do a cost/benefit analysis. But for the moment, the silver saab only sees sunny warm days and the subaru takes the rain, etc.
Given the choice, and if I could go back in time, I would have not purchased the silver saab as we could have bought my mother in laws 2000 Camry which was dented…but ran well.
Never again will I buy a new car (if I can help it!)
With all the computers in todays cars, that would be a tipping point for me. A friend has a mid 2000’s Infinity. It has been slinging an infinity of computer codes and he insists on trying to keep it on the road. He won’t say what it cost to keep it alive other than to say “a lot”. I have a 99 Cadillac Seville SLS with 160k miles. Runs great, so far. Bit the bullet and fixed the inherent overdrive problem and the infamous head gasket fiasco. But when the computer system starts to go, it’s a throw away. On the other hand, I have a 69 fiat 124 sport coupe that I’ve has since I bought it in 1974. No idea how many miles are on it, I’d guess well over 350000. Yes, it’s all been redone, to one degree or another. Easy to work on, parts are cheap, never fails to start. Best, most fun, car I’ve ever owned. Have I been tempted to get rid of it? Yup. Fortunately, I resisted that thought. Can’t say that about the ex-wife though. Bwa-ha-ha.