There’s been a lot of discussion lately about the demise of the sedan. Here’s a sedan that faded away decades ago in the US, though not because of it’s shape. In fact, I think the Peugeot 505 is a classic of good proportion and detailing, especially coming as it did after the 504. The 504 wasn’t a bad looking sedan, but it’s pre-Bangle squashed trunk lid just ruined the whole car for me.
I captured this 505 Diesel clattering away (but not visibly smoking, even after the light turned green) next to me at a traffic light this week, probably the first one I’ve noticed in many years. When we first moved here, there actually was a local cab driver with a 505 but I haven’t seen it for a long time (we did have a Mercedes W123 taxi in town until quite recently).
Peugeot ad photo from hemmings.com
The Peugeot 505 was introduced in the US in 1980 and lasted here for ten years. It was offered in gasoline and diesel versions, the former either a four cylinder or the PRV V6, and in sedan and wagon styles. An optional 2.2 liter four cylinder turbo gasoline engine was offered for the second half of the 505’s lifetime and was very successful in Showroom Stock racing in the US. The diesel I saw wasn’t as speedy, but it followed me onto the freeway and easily stayed with our sluggish afternoon traffic. A nice car, and a positively sleek profile compared to the Honda Pilot and Kia Soul that surrounded it in my photo.
I kind of liked these. When I was in law school I lived in some student apartments in a sketchy area on the west side of Indianapolis. A family lived next door who were immigrants from one of the African countries, I no longer remember which one. He drove a late model 505 and never missed an opportunity to tell me what a great car it was.
After it got stolen and recovered for the second time he decided the car was ruined for him and he bought another. I never knew how a guy with a family who lived in cheap student housing could afford a new Peugeot.
He could probably afford a new Peugeot because he lived in cheap student housing with his family. 😃 It’s all about priorities…
The 505 looks much better without the American-style rear bumper and tail-lights….
Swapping out the American headlamp assemblies with the European-style makes these cars look fantastic!
A friend’s mom had one in high school. The car was sumptuously smooth and comfortable, lovely seats and the typical long-travel soft suspension that French cars often have that makes the bumps disappear.
I’m not sure how not having a big bulbous trunk can ruin a car for someone. To each his own. The style and proportions are typical of 70’s and 80’s European cars , and very similar to my ’79 BMW 733.
He’s referring to the 504, I can’t say I feel any different, it looks pre-crashed with the kink in the middle of the trunklid.
Yep – to me the 504 sedan looked like a safe landed on the back half of the rear deck. The 504 wagon was much better.
I always found the 504 & 505 wagons quite ungainly – the Citroen DS and CX pulled it off better. I’d prefer a totally boxy rear than whatever’s going on with those Peugeots.
I never noticed an issue with the 504 sedan’s tail until multiple American commenters mentioned it on CC, and I still don’t have a problem with it.
French wagons of that period were all about adding a lot of cubic meters. I particularly like the Renault 21’s.
Maybe it was the same guy who backed the 1980 Cadillac Seville prototype into a wall.
As XR7Matt and Tonyola say, I was referring to the 504. I drove a friend’s parents’ 504 a few times; it was certainly a nice driver, though I wasn’t crazy about the four-on-the-tree, and I’ll admit the trunk styling was a non-issue from behind the wheel.
There’s at least one of these still around here, a wagon that recently got a flat black paint job that I see from time to time.
I just shot a 505 wagon in a parking lot. It belonged to the guy who’s 505 wagon I shot almost ten years ago, for my CC on these wagons. That one finally wore out and he got another.
https://www.curbsideclassic.com/curbside-classics-european/curbside-classic-1989-peugeot-505-wagon-the-last-of-the-worlds-greatest-wagons/
There’s a very fine 505 V6 sedan in town I’ve shot at least twice, but never got around to writing up.
In 1986, after finally finishing college with a “marketable” degree, I was trying to sell new cars for a local Buick dealer (I didn’t want to leave town; this was the best that I could do to make my car payment). Perhaps partially due to the oil & natural gas recession in the New Orleans area (as well as 18 percent GMAC car loans); the dealership was a ghost town.
The owners decided to take on a Peugeot franchise as a way to sell more cars, to get a younger buying crowd into the showroom (and switch them to a Regal, Century or Skyhawk).
As my personal car was a ’85 Honda Civic SI; I was assigned a diesel Peugeot for a company car. (“You already know how to drive a stick; nobody else wants the dayumed thing”.)
Talk about “mixed feelings!”
The front bucket seats were, without a doubt, the most comfortable seats that I had sat in since a pre-war Packard. For a car of that size, it swallowed up the (in)famous potholes in New Orleans without a second glance. Four full sized Americans sat comfortbly in the car, for long time periods. I thought that both the 4 door and the station wagon were lovely, graceful, stylish looking vehicles.
Of course it was Dog-Azzed slow. “Acceleration” was too strong of a term for this diesel engine car; it merely gathered momentum chugging over the Mississippi River bridge that was part of my daily Interstate 10 commute, foot flat to the floor in third gear.
The factory air conditioning sounded like it was “part your hair” powerful; but all that greenhouse window area conspired with the soaking heat & humidity in the area to just feel about as effective as a slightly cool, wet washcloth on my face.
The emissions control system didn’t seem to like the New Orleans climate also; frequently coughing and sputtering when pressed to hard to TRY to move the car in a hurry (Good Luck on THAT happening!) in the 95 degree heat of a New Orleans extended Summer.
I was very disappointed in this car, having been “brought up” worshiping the pages of “Road & Track” magazine, who lauded various Peugeot models lavishly over the years.
I traded the Peugeot for a Buick Century Luxus demonstrator the first chance the sales manager gave me.
HOW can a car that did SO well in Europe do SO badly in the USA? I am as puzzled over this today as I was in 1986.
Euro demands on a car of this size were quite different to the US, as were expectations of performance because of the cost of fuel, but I too wonder a bit at the comparative success.
I’ve owned two in Aus, albeit petrols, and I agree with all you say (save for the A/C, which worked quite splendidly). The pushrod engined models I had were also quite under-powered, and unrefined when pushed past 4500 rpm. It was at it’s best on a country road in top at about 3500rpm (about 80-85 mph), where it could be kept up to a good pace even if twisty, and do so for comfortable hours on not too much petrol. But as a whole piece, the 505 was less than complete, with niggling unreliability, a creaky dash and worst of all, a quite loose body.
Peugeot absolutely peaked with the late-model 404, solid, silken, click-click precise in all the controls and all the French suspension virtues with the quality impression of an old-school Lancia. The 504 was more sophisticated in theory, but less unified in practice, and the 505 with it’s haughtily elegant Pinin styling (especially in original Euro form) was lesser again. It was never the car it so tantalisingly promised to be.
I’ve lived in Europe, Asia, Australia and the USA and I strongly suspect the difference in perception of what constitutes a slow car is largely due to design differences between the road networks, but admittedly Europeans are reluctant to go bigger than a four for mpg reasons.
Indeed. My father’s 1.8L/auto 505 was to me the most dangerous car I ever drove due to its “performance”. Every overhauling maneuver involved faster heart rate and white knuckles. But in 80s Israel people just put up with that sort of thing.
We had a diesel 4 spd 504 wagon in the ’80s but sold it when rust got bad. In a moment of weakness we almost bought a 505 Diesel wagon about 8 yrs ago from a guy in Vermont who is one of the East Coast’s go-to guys for Pug cars and parts, but reason finally prevailed. I love them, their turtle-like acceleration forces one to adopt a smell-the-roses driving style, which is a good thing, and the ride and seats of better French cars has never been equaled! Plus Pug wagons are amazingly capacious… true haulers!
Would the guy in Vermont be Brian Holm? I used to get parts for my 504s from him.
I like this article and the car it covers…..especially the brief taxi reference. A friend of mine who ran a metered cab company in the mid 2000 aughts to early 2000 teens solely used w123 sedans as cabs due to the high price of fuel in those times. We were caught up in the bio diesel veg oil craze and used our manufactured fuel to keep operating costs down. It was a fun part time job for me in my late 20s that led to some great stories… He folded when he took a job out of state and soon after Uber and Lyft arrived making the competition too crowded for the little college town anyway. The white w123 in my avatar was my cab on and off, I bought it initially, sold it to his LLC, then bought it back at the end. It is now my hobby car, with a ton of local history.
His non taxi cab daily driver during these times? A brown 1986 505 diesel sedan.
Thanks for the memeories!
Do you mind saying which town this was?
Certainly, Blacksburg VA home of Virginia Tech and just up the road from another VA state college Radford University in Radford, VA. I failed to mention this in my initial post…..
We had a good run for several years along with a large van based DD service, Hooptie Ride and another local metered cab service as well. Plenty of business at the time for all. The DD van service still exists as does the other meter cab company in one form of its original self after changing hands a few times, along with a ton of Uber/Lyft options. As I mentioned my friend took a job out of state and my business ventures were taking off at the same time. We sold our contract rides to the meter cab, sold the 240d to a college kid, scrapped the non-turbo 300d (trust me it was shot), I kept the white turbo 300d and he kept the silver turbo 300d, of our 4 car service.
Thanks again
I loved the 504 but never took so much for the 505.
While the 504 was better, bigger, faster and therefore a worthy successor of the legendary 404, the 505 simply was n’t.
It was n’t bigger, better, faster, it was simply a 504 with a new Pininfarina bodywork.
The break (estate) did not have that raise in its roof which the 504 break had (as well as the CX break by Citroën)
Curious to see Europe loved and embraced the 504, the 505 did not ring the same bell.
The 505 was to plain it consolidated Peugeot’s market share, or tried to.
There is a difference in taste between the US and Europe.
Ow, by the way, the 2.2 liter engine came from Chrysler/Simca/Talbot Europe, they used it for the now forgotten Talbot Tagora.
It was also used in the CX Citroën, the 505 and, most curious of all in the Citroën BX 4 tc, Citroën’s group B rally car from the eighties.
This morning I stood next to a Maserati 3200 GT coupe from 1998 on an Italian car show.
The car has what we call boomerang taillights, we loved the shape of these different, however Maserati dismissed them and choose to install a more conventional shape of taillight because the American market wanted this and these cars were mainly sold in the USA.
As a side note: After experiencing, enjoying and luxuriating in those superb French seats; I purchased several pairs, from local recycling yards, and installed them in various Japanese pick up trucks that I owned, in the intervening years since 1986.
You would be flat out amazed at HOW much better those cheap Jap trucks rode with the Peugeot bucket seats swapped in, in place of those thinly padded bench seats!
Thanks for the comments and sharing personal experiences. Styling is subjective … obviously I really like this car’s appearance, but I can understand how as a car it might have been a step backward compared to the 504 or 404. Modernized, but not actually improved.
Curbside Classics provides such a great venue to see long lost cars from other eras. Paul’s site has really shown me that cars within a given era often do look remarkably alike. In spite of what many argue on the contrary.
As we adapt to current or trendy styling cues in any given era, we can somewhat readily pickup on styling nuances between cars. When the long term evidence shows many cars from different manufacturers in a given era do look very similar. And once we have the separation of time, we can see the striking similarities between cars we formally never associated that much.
For example, to my eye, the 505 looks very much like the Mazda 626 (Capella) sedan introduced in 1978. I haven’t checked their design histories, if there is a connection in their designers, but the styling similarities are strong.
At the time, I appreciated the differences between the 505 and 626. But today, the number of matching design details seem too notable to ignore. Many cars in any given era do look very similar.
First time I’ve seen this rear end and I’m assuming its US only 5 mph bumper design.
I find quite shocking as its ruined the entire car, the rear panel is supposed slant inwards like a kamm tail.
I did a double take as it looks like someone welded on a 626 rear because they couldn’t find any 505 panels/parts.
The 505 was styled by Paul Bracq, who had recently come from BMW. The 626 was styled in-house by Mazda AFAIK.
No, Paul Bracq produced interiors for Peugeot. The 505 was the work of Pininfarina with input from Peugeot’s in-house exterior styling team led by Gerard Welter.
Can someone in the knows help me to understand the difference and similarities on the chassis of 604 and 505? Are they basically the same but just slightly longer wheelbase? I got these from wiki:
Wheelbase:
604: 110.2″ (280cm), 505: 108″ (275 cm)
Width:
604: 69.7″ (177cm), 505: 68″ (173.7cm)
Suspension:
604: Dunno
505: The suspension system included MacPherson struts and coil springs at front and semi-trailing arms with coil springs at rear, with a body-mounted rear differential and four constant-velocity joints.
Any insights?
They’re basically the same “platform”, except for wheelbase. The 504 spawned the 604 and 505. The 604’s body was a bit wider from the sills up to the roof.
As Paul said, the 505 and 604 are basically 504 underpinnings with different bodies.
One thing the 504 had (but not its younger brethren) was a choice of a live axle or IRS. Lower-spec 504 L / LD saloons had the cheaper live axle, as did the wagon and pickup. The higher-spec saloons and the two-door 504 C had IRS.
504 doors fit ito a 604.
That’s all I can tell you.
That might be true for the fronts, but certainly not the back door, which was clearly longer due to the longer wheelbase. 604 body was wider too.
My bad, apologies !
As once I sold a pair of 504 front doors to a man who had a 604, he paid a very generous price for those front doors
@ Mark, why didn’t the Peugeot do better?
One was that Peugeot, compared with the other imports, never really established a strong brand identity. An ’80’s buyer faced with a series of premium European imports thought of a Volvo as safe and durable, a BMW as sporty, a Mercedes as expensive and well engineered, a Saab as FWD and good in the snow and quirky, but a Peugeot was . . . French, which meant unreliable and expensive parts sourced from faraway lands.
Two was that as you pointed out, most of the Peugeot dealers were minor sidelines added to another dealer and treated as such, unlike BMW/Mercedes/Volvo/Saab dealers which were all stand alone and the dealers had to make their lines succeed. Peugeot’s home office didn’t have strong leadership in the United States like the other marques did and didn’t try very hard.
Three was that the cars just weren’t up to American durability standards. Volvos and Mercedes diesels went on forever, but these cars just didn’t hold up well in America. For whatever reason, they go on forever on the African continent but not here and didn’t develop a good reputation. They were probably also tainted by Renault’s habit of exporting really awful cars. American mechanics were also not used to servicing these cars.
I also believe the French, being French, their language, the way French do things did not correspond with the Anglo Saxon way of life.
President De Gaulle -rightfully in hinsight?- always blocked a British membership of the EEC (the forerunner and better version of the EU we now have), the French grandeur and chauvinism stood in their way.
French did things they did the French way, individualism plays a hughe part in French culture, perhaps this is why they were often avantgarde in the motor industry introducing new technical solutions or niche markets , with the protestant company of Peugeot brothers being the most conservative manufacturer.
I had a 505 turbodiesel for a few years. It was a fantastic driving car. It was quite the engineering conundrum as some things were beautifully designed and executed while some things were absolute crap. It was a reliable driver until a shaved head gangbanger decided that the red light wasn’t for him and took it out. Sticking around to take responsibility didn’t happen. I still have spare parts for it in the shed.
I always liked these, despite the quirks and maintenance concerns. In 1985 child #2 was on the way and a wagon was in order…2 kids and a retriever in an Accord sedan wasn’t going to cut it. I really liked the 505 wagon; unreal space, very comfortable seats and ride, smooth clutch. But, besides the known concerns, it made molasses in January seem like Road Runner of cartoon fame. I think less than 100 bhp. Went with a Volvo 245… less roomy, stiffer ride, also slow… but a veritable rocket by comparison.
I hadn’t noticed/seen the US market rear lights. On one level it is commendable that they tried to integrate the bumpers a bit more, but I wonder if having the lights closer to the point of impact meant the bumper had to be that bit longer?
Bonjour,
Je suis français et trouvé votre discussion très intéressante et documenté.
Ça fait plaisir de voir nos voitures appréciée chez vous.
Et je confirme la 604 a des portes identiques a la 504.
Belle journée a vous
We , in South America , can give different views since both Peugeot 505 and 504 used to be very strong selling cars . Just to make it short : in spite the 505 was theoretically an upgraded and improved evolution of the 504 , facts will make you see down the streets most old 504 are still driven around in incredible good health , both Diesels and regular , but former 505 never reached the reliability of its predecessor . Yet there’s a strong cult for 504s everywhere . The 505 is almost forgotten .
It’s quite the opposite here in Melbourne, Australia. For some reason, I’m seeing quite a few 505 sedans and the odd wagon, whereas the 504 is not so visible. In fact I can recall more 404s of late, but the 505 is still the most numerous.