We tend to be contrarians. While seemingly everyone else is buying Subarus or other AWD crossovers, we sold our 2000 Forester and bought a FWD Acura TSX Sportwagon. Given that we regularly drive on back-country gravel US Forest roads to go hiking, and like to go skiing, this might seem rather counter-intuitive. Or counter-logical. But I’ve never yet managed to not get through the steepest and least-maintained forest roads in the Xb, which I prefer to take for those kinds of outings. And the last two winters were a total bust in terms of snow. But not this winter, so far.
It’s been one of the wettest Decembers to date here, and cold enough to generate lots of snow, right down to a couple hundred feet above the valley floor. Up on the pass, there’s a 60-70″ base. So I did what I have never done before: bought a set of snow tires. The Forested did fine with its all-season tires and AWD. But I did not want to take too much of a risk with just fwd, so I shelled out $365 for a full set of Blizzaks at Costco for the Xb. And two days later, we headed up to McKenzie Pass, to go cross country skiing.
Hwy 126 was hard packed snow/ice with some cinders scattered over it from about 2000′ elevation up. it took a bit longer than usual, as traffic was slow; 30-40 mph, once it started going uphill seriously. But it was nice to roll by the chain-up pull-outs, as we were legal with our traction tires. And the traction was great; I never felt the slightest bit of slippage. It was fully comparable to the Forester with all-seasons.
The one mile road into the Hodoo Ski Area (top picture) was pretty rough; crudely plowed with a thick base of packed snow, but some serious “pot/snow holes” and and soft drifts. Again, not a hint of loss of traction. I should have taken a picture in the parking lot, as we were just about the only non-AWD vehicle to be seen.
This was hardly a real test of the traction limits, but it was an encouraging start. And it felt good to get back on the boards after two years. Next time, I’ll turn off an unplowed forest road to ski in total solitude, and see how that goes.
Wishing You a Happier New Year in 2016!
Paul, I don’t know what the law was when you left Austria, but nowadays – between 1 November and 15 April – if road conditions are “wintry” (“bei winterlichen Verhältnissen”) you must have snow tires, so in practice this means every car has two sets of wheels/tires (summer/winter). I assumed Oregon was similar…
Same here in Germany as well. It’s called Winterreifenpflicht, which is recommended from early October to late April.
Same in Serbia. Snow tyres com usually on steel wheels and summer one on alloys.
Personally, I also prefer to have one size narrower winter tyres and an inch smaller wheels, for added directional ability and better traction.
And poor Dresden last year got only one snowfall of any consequence, and it was gone within a day. The Crocuses were blooming on the first of February.
Not that I’ve been to Oregon, but from what I’ve read if you stay off and to the west of the mountains you won’t see much snow. Even here in Maine where we average seven feet per winter snow tires aren’t required. Next door in Quebec they are required.
As Scott said, Oregon is a pretty large state with highly varying climate ans altitude. In Western Oregon,snow is quite rare, and is usually gone within 24-36 hours. There’s really no need for snow tires. And this is where the overwhelming majority of the population lives.
But if one wants to cross the mountains to get to Eastern Oregon, than during a snowy period there are signs put up on the highway to enforce either traction tires or chains. It’s the same as in California too.
It is not the same in California. With 2wd you need to mount chains, not just snow tires. Even with AWD/4wd you are required to carry chains for at least one axle. I have been asked by the CHP to show them.
No, in the US every regulation is state-based and in general the US is far less regulation oriented than Austria or Germany.
I’m not aware of any kind of snow tire regs in the NE US where I now live, where winters are variously snowy. In California they enforce chain control in mountain passes, obviously so some stuck cars won’t block all the traffic. Maybe four snow tires or snow tires + AWD or just AWD/4WD qualify.
I lived through a winter in SW Colorado at 7000 feet. I decided to forgoe snow tires and rims so I wouldn’t end up with them in case it was a temporary situation. I was driving a FWD minivan with no traction control. I packed chains and kitty litter and a down sleeping bag.
I came back home a time or two hours after snow plowing ended at 7 pm where you couldn’t tell where the road was other than by the sign posts at the side of the road. And the bumpy feeling when going off the pavement.
Not recommending it, but I got through fine.
In normal circumstances, get a full set of snows with steel rims (maybe from the local car recycler) so you can just switch them yourself without remounting. In the warmer moths stick them in your garage or storeroom, which I didn’t have (and I did move away after that year).
The media always tells people to have kitty litter on board. It might help if you’re stuck but kitty litter turns to grease when it gets wet because it’s made of clay. The media quotes wives tales, when you need traction, you need sand.
Anyone how claims they “need” AWD simply means, “I don’t know how to drive.”
That AWD with cheap-o all season tires may seem to go pretty well in snow, but it sure won’t stop any better.
A small FWD car with four quality, studded snow tires will go anywhere that is safe.
Amen!
Though I’d pass on studded, as they’re restricted seasonally in most provinces, and winter snow can linger.
Amen +1!
Best car for snowy road is NOT heavy SUV on all-season/no-reason tyres, but a light FWD car with decent winter rubber (like xB or Honda Jazz). Especially on sheet ice, or even worse, thawing ice, covered with icy water….
4WD gives you better traction, but rarely a better grip (which depende more on quality of tyres…) and makes no difference on braking ability…
Most popular cars in European Alps were Fiat Panda 4×4, Citroen AX 4×4, Subary Justy…not by chance!
I bought my first ever set of snows last year for my ’15 Honda Fit (Jazz), and was pleasantly surprised at how well they did. It plowed through 6-8″ snow with no problem at all.
I’ve always heard it joked that “4WD just means you need a longer tow strap.” (c:
But the absolute best car for snow or ice (in my experience) is the good old air-cooled Beetle. My ’64 got me around in every Atlanta, GA ice storm with no fuss. I always got a laugh at the Jeeps and 4WD pickups off in the ditches…
These things make a vehicle go well in the snow(on a paved road)
1. high percentage of vehicle weight over the drive wheels
2. low vehicle weight
3. tall skinny tires
4. good ground clearance
a VW Beetle seems to have it all
My father had similar experience with his ’70 Beetle 🙂
Brilliant car!
All my VW bus lacked was a good heater. Otherwise it was a great snow vehicle.
Once I owned a 1980 (Swiss Made) RWD Pontiac Grand Le Mans Safari. 4.9 Litre V8 with 3 speed automatic transmission and 14″ factory wheels and factory size winter tyres. I used to live then in an environment where the land is plain, no hills, no mountains. During snowy/icy winters this car of mine was totally annoying. So many times I couldn’t move with it even an inch further if I parked on a patch of frozen water for example. The rear wheels were just rotating on and on and on in one place and sometimes. Then I had wondered about how these mid-sized automatic rwd cars had been worked for example in the Swiss or Austrian Alps during the winter seasons!?
AWD/FWD/RWD doesn’t matter when gas pedal isn’t pushed ( especially after leaving off for a little while )
While that is true of most people who buy AWD, it is certainly not true in many cases. I can assure you I have taken my last 3 trucks places where no 2WD could go, and did it safely. To make blanket statements insisting otherwise defies the laws of physics.
If you are going to stay on paved plowed roads, sure, you probably don’t need AWD. But there is no argument that even when it is not necessary, it is still quite nice to have because it does indeed give better traction, all else being equal of course.
Ironic that you drive an Acura, a nameplate that is certainly not “necessary” for anything over what a Honda can do.
The Acura TSX is the European Accord, & •is• necessary if one wants a Honda wagon Stateside & the Crosstour isn’t your thing.
A good old fashion RWD is no problem either with good winter tires. I’ve driven both a 89 Caprice Brougham, 77 Cadillac Coupe DeVille and a 76 Lincoln Mark IV in the winter here in Norway. Never had any problems with it, but tires are extremely improtant. Compared to light European RWD cars those american cars are way more stable and god better traction due to the relatively large overhang in the rear.
Agreed my 88 Caprice Estate was one of the best cars I’ve driven in snow.
I run studded snow tires and swear by them. When the 4 wheel drives with all season tires have slid into the ditch I’m still chugging along with just FWD. I used to have a 2 wheel drive Ford Ranger that was just awful in snow, but with studded snows and 500 lbs over the back axle it was transformed into a credible winter vehicle. I live in Maine and it seems like ice is much more of an issue as winters are warmer than they used to be. We get a lot more freezing rain than years ago, as well as black ice. In these conditions studs are awesome. You wouldn’t go mountain climbing in sneakers. OK, you could, but why would you want to.
My brother’s 1993 Toyota Corolla had studded tyres during the winter. I drove his car in Denver area once in a while and swore them as very extremely useful.
The only downside is higher grating noise when driving on clear roads.
Just in case anyone is considering studded tires on a front-wheel drive car, Maine law requires that all 4 tires be studded on front wheel drives. The issue is that if they are only on the front, the back tires become skis if the brakes lock up causing a very dangerous situation.
Don’t take this the wrong way, but I’m virulently anti-studs. The damage they cause to the highways is huge, which is why they are outlawed in Europe and most states. Once they’re banned, folks who used to use studs realize they can get along just fine with good snow tires.
Our freeways have horrible ruts in them, all because of studded tires. And the state budget for highway renovation is consistently underfunded.
Having driven your freeways I agree, the ruts and condition of the roadways (thinking I-5) are horrendous. Here in CO plenty of people run studs as well and we don’t have anywhere near the ruts. I wonder if a large part of it is really due to the triple trailers? Do they chain those up in the winter? Or probably just has more to do with whatever mix of concrete they use. What reminds me most of your roads is the I-80 near Truckee and Donner Lake and no studs there either but plenty of chained trucks.
Jim, concrete doesn’t rut quite like asphalt. In turn, rutting can be caused by either the pavement material or the base material (or a combination of both). How the ruts look will tell the story.
That said, trucks are wonderful in promoting ruts, especially in areas where conditions warrant slowing down or stopping. With all the flooding here in the past week, with hundreds of roads being closed around the state, truckers were allowed to have up to 88,000 pounds (10% over the limit) if hauling rock or other material for flood repair. With the road base being saturated, I’m sure we’ll see some new rutting from that.
Hmm, interesting. On I80 around Tahoe, the concrete wears away so that what seems to remain is the larger aggregate, creating sort of a rut and a LOT of noise. That’s what I was thinking of in relation or OR as well but Paul may have meant the asphalt sections instead. Here in CO the mountain passes are mainly asphalt from what I recall but large parts of I-25 along the front range are concrete without the same issue/problem even though studs are allowed. We do not often have “chain” conditions along I25. Of course large parts of more temperate CA areas have concrete as well without the wear which is why I was thinking that chains cause a lot of the damage.
Now you have me intrigued. From what you describe, it sounds like the concrete is spalling or being abraded. I have also seen concrete become polished to the point of the paste having worn away, exposing the larger aggregate beneath, but that doesn’t sound like what you describe.
I wrote a post about this situation back at the other site: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/02/what-grinds-my-gears-studded-snow-tires/
The image below is from I-90 in Idaho, but looks just like what I see lots of here. And it’s not from the trucks, as the left lanes have it too. The ruts in some places are so bad, you can almost take your hands off the wheel!
My biggest gripe is the noise created by the rough pavement in the ruts. I have pretty badly damaged ears (tinnitus), and the drone from rough pavement is for some reason exceptional painful to me. I have taken to hugging the right or left side of the lane to avoid the worst of it. Whenever I hit fairly new pavement, the difference is astonishing.
Yes, asphalt gets damaged more than concrete, although I’ve seen some pretty badly rutted old concrete too.
The state of Oregon Transportation Dept. has tried for decades now to get the law changed, with lots of brutal statistics on the $ value of the damage done per year. But there are just enough legislators that live in the Eastern part of the state to hold it up. But the balance of political power is shifting ever more toward the Western part of the state, and I assume within a few years it will likely pass (a ban on studs).
Here’s another image I found of rutted concrete. I don’t know the source, but it looks just like what I’ve seen here. It’s really quite dreadful; terrible to drive on.
And these are from cars only. Truck ruts are clearly wider due to the dual wheels.
Here’s an interesting study from the Washington DOT on wear of concrete from studs: http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/4C5A75E3-A7A1-4294-9FED-6D36EC6BD246/0/StuddedTireStudyFolio.pdf
From an Oregon DOT study:
A wear rate for PCC (concrete) of about 0.0091 inches per 100,000 studded tire passes, while the wear rate of asphalt pavement is about 0.0295 inches per
100,0
00 studded tire passes
This is fascinating. While I need to look at these reports (update – I have and they are very interesting), it is sounding like the studs are simply grinding the pavement away, just at a slower rate than a milling head on a motor grader or bobcat would achieve. It’s pretty much the same principle.
Recently I saw a presentation about snow removal. The speaker stated Oregon is the only state that doesn’t rely strictly on some form of salt and/or beet juice. It seems there is a mild acid that is used by some jurisdictions in Oregon. With concrete being a base, I can’t imagine the two always playing well together. Any idea on how widespread its use may be?
EDIT: Not being familiar with studded tires, I didn’t realize they were using carbide steel (according to the Washington study) – that’s the same steel used in snow plow blades in many states. I fully comprehend and agree with your disdain for studs.
Jason, here’s a very comprehensive recent study (Dec 2014) done for Oregon’s DOT, from which that quote was lifted.
http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/COMM/Documents/StuddedTireReport2014.pdf
The good news is that studded tire use is dropping, and the newer studded tires are relatively less damaging. But the annual damage to Oregon’s state highways is still close to $10 million per year, from studs alone.
Let’s sum it up this way: studs are harder than concrete.
The dollar amounts for damage in the Oregon report are sobering. To think of the number of miles that could be repaired for the same amount of money. Plus, the beauty of concrete is that it requires more extensive repairs for this type of damage. Unreal.
I do remember when in Germany studded tires were THE thing in the late 60’s or so. Studs were flying off the tires and bombed the windshields of cars that followed. Reaction: If you had studs you were limited to 100 km/h and you had to display an oval “100” sticker on the rear window.
After a few seasons the roads were damaged so severely that rain water had trouble to run off which of course increased aquaplaning. Reaction: studs were outlawed and only allowed for emergency vehicles and such.
Modern studded tires have shorter, aluminum studs. They are much less likely to cause windshield damage. Steel studs in Oregon and Washington were banned around the late ’90’s. I only run the winter tires with studs if going through the mountains during winter conditions, or if we have a rare winter storm down in the valley. Often they stay in the garage all winter if the weather is mild, or will only be used for a few weeks at most. Running them for long periods of time on dry roads quickly damages and wears out the tires (and the roads). I do think road damage is minimal if the tires are used when conditions require them, and they are a lot easier on the road then chains. I have a floor jack, electric impact wrench and garage so swapping over is easy and quick.
Studded tires do have their place and have saved lives. They need to be used with consideration of conditions.
It’s the people that run them every season for the full legal time period no matter what the conditions are that really cause the most damage. And the lives saved on icy roads with the studs are worth the extra road damage. Washington now has one of the highest gas taxes in the country. So the money required to maintain the roads is available, but the question is does the money go to the needed road upkeep? It’s a domino effect when road repairs are not done on a regular basis.
“Steel” studs are legal in WA. Studs are not shorter than they used to be there is a specific length for a give tire, ie the tire sticker will say use #xx studs so that they bottom out in the hole and still protrude.
What has happened is that modern studs only use carbide steel for the center pin in the stud and the jacket is made of a softer metal, sometimes aluminum.
My studded tires were purchased in Oregon so they don’t have the steel stud jacket, they are aluminum. The center pin seems to be aluminum as well, they are stored in the garage (haven’t used them this year yet) and there is no rust on the center pins as well as the jacket. Actually never used them last year either due to mild weather.
No that center pin is not aluminum it is tungsten carbide which is a type of steel.
Well “Spikereifen” use is now severely limited in Austria (not allowed in the sommer months, speed is limited to 80 Km/H on Federal roads and 100 Km/H on Autobahnen, studs must be shorter than 2 mm, GVW no more than 3500 kg, you must have them on all four wheels (or also your trailer, if one is used) and a sticker evidencing their use has to be present); like you said, with the wide use of modern snow tires hardly anyone uses them anymore. In fact, here in Vienna a car with studded tires marks the user immediately as “vom Land” (country yokel) which can be derogatory of sorts… They do have their uses (on emergency vehicles) but not really needed for normal driving.
I’m a “true believer” in snow tires, I drove a Miata year-round in Minnesota for years. I had a set of Nokian snow tires, and never had a problem getting anywhere. Granted, I wasn’t trying to get up mountains or go down jeep trails, but under normal winter conditions I got around just fine.
I’m from Minnesota myself. Without any hesitation, I can easily say I’d much rather be driving the Econoline conversion van my parents owned while growing up during the winter because it was always on dedicated snow tires by December. My own cars at that time, both FWD (Celica GT and Focus ZX3), were deathtraps by comparison. Despite rear wheel only ABS and running boards that did their best to mimic a bed skirt, the Econoline never could really get stuck. My own cars? Well, as long as the driveway didn’t look at them funny…
Nokia snow tires are probably the best. The Nokian wrg3 all weather (not all season) may be very good on an awd car.
Just returned from Mayo, and near home (200 miles to go) blowing snow was making the interstate ice. Saw three in the ditch, first a Suburban who had just spun out I think. Then a 4 wheel drive pickup was in a snowbank. The snowplow was there too, plowing. Then, nearly home, a 4 wheel drive pickup must have spun out in the other lanes and went in back wards on its side. Sheriff and highway patrol were nearly there as I got there. Note that everyone sliding off the road was in a 4 wheel drive truck.
> Nokia snow tires are probably the best. The Nokian wrg3 all weather (not all season) may be very good on an awd car.
That or the Michelin X-Ice Xi3. Both Car and Driver and Consumer Reports just did winter-tire tests and both put the Xi3 and the Nokian Hakkapeliitta R2 in a near-tie for first and second place (C/D gave the edge to the Nokian for sportier steering response; CR found the Michelin to be a tad quieter, although both were good).
Have you actually been in a car with the Nokian WR G3 tires? I love the idea of them – about halfway between winter and all-season tires – but nobody in my area sells them and neither does Tire Rack. One question I have concerns quietness – CR found them to be extremely quiet, yet many reviews on Nokian’s own website complain about noise. I go for lots of long drives and want a quiet car.
No I have not had experience with Nokians. My sister had them (but which ones?) on a chrysler convertible. I did ride in it for a short distance. My CTS has Pirelli run flats. Nokians are not run flats, although that would only mean getting an inflator kit. My Pirelli’s are not bad though with 20,000 miles on them.
My ATS had run flat Michelins which local dealers did not stock. I needed two replaced, but they were not flat, so I could keep driving till a new replacement came (about two days or so). A couple of tire dealers appear to handle Nokians here.
Certain models and sizes of Nokian run-flats are available:
http://www.nokiantires.com/innovation/innovations/run-flat-flat-run-property/
My car has 255/35-19 tires.
Count me in to the studded winter camp. Our f350 4×4 goes well for sure, but the 2001 Prius we had was damn near as good. In fact it was the best two wheel drive car in the snow we have ever owned. It had studs, and dammit, this year we don’t have it, or studs on our Lexus CT200h and will be for sure trying to find a set for next year. It’s not unsafe, but on ice, which is what is the norm here, studs are the only way to go! Not sure why, but the hybrid drive in our old Prius, with narrow studded winters would go places I was floored it could go. What a billygoat!
Happy new year to you all!
Good to hear some real world “testing” from someone who has had both AWD and FWD with snow tires. I’ve got AWD but then my contract is structured in such a way that if I’m required to be somewhere, I’m required to be there come hell or high water (unless local law enforcement are willing to certify that conditions are too poor to drive.)
The best FWD car I ever owned for snow travel was actually my 1982 Chevrolet Celebrity with the Iron Duke but that was largely because it was so front heavy. Ground clearance was the only limiting factor.
I had to put winter tires on my ’02 Focus, as it was treacherous in the snow. I never had traction issues with RWD and decent all seasons prior to this car. As someone once said, upon looking at the car with the winter tires installed; “Nothing runs like a Deere”
Happy New Year everyone!
But…but…John Deeres have always had yellow wheels!
If your car runs properly, it’s not a John Deere 😉
Those rims look more like faded Deutz green to me
Paul which Blizzaks did you get, the WS80 or the LM-32? Did you go down a wheel size?
WS80. My Xb’s factory tires are 185-60×15. But I put on 185-65x15s a couple of years ago, in an effort to get a slightly better ride, which it did do. So I had that size snow tire put on too. The installer (Costco) was a bit hesitant in both cases, as the diameter increased a bit more than the 2% they allow, but I talked them into it.
My snows are on 15″ rims, as opposed to my summers being on 16″ (same tire outside diameter, though). I wanted more rubber between me and the horrible potholes we get here in the Middle West. They come from the double whammy of a lot of heavy ag equipment (roading tractors and combines followed by usually over-the-limit grain trucks) then snowplows. The road I take to work is borderline unsafe right now, and won’t get fixed until next Spring at the very earliest (no budget, hey – we’re Illinois!).
I believe a low profile tire changes the shape of the tire contact patch which reduces traction on snow/ice and other less than ideal situation. Taller softer sidewalls enhance traction in less than perfect conditions even when overall wheel width and diameter are the same.
Being a low profile tire in and of itself has minimal effect on contact patch. However the norm when going to a lower profile tire is to go to a wider tire at the same time which does change the shape of the contact patch. The taller softer sidewalls won’t really help you if you keep at the stock pressures. Lower the pressure and the footprint can spread out which will help if you want to float over the soft stuff and will improve traction on dry ice.
not true
A low profile tire with a stiff sidewall tends towards an hourglass shaped contact patch with the fat ends of the hourglass under the sidewalls. A high profile tire with soft sidewalls tends towards an elliptical shaped contact patch oriented so that long way of the ellipse is in the direction of the wheel travel.
see my very crude greatly exaggerated picture
What you have illustrated is what happens to the shape of the contact patch when you increase the width of the tire.
Over the years I’ve ran several different sizes of tires on my different Panthers. I started out with 255/60-15 then moved to 255/50-17 and finally to the 255/45-18 that I run today. The footprint is essentially the same for all of those tires even though the profile is different because the width, height and load on the tire is the same. I’ve seen the prints that each of the tire makes over the years.
no
What I have illustrated is the effect of a low profile tire.
That Acura wagon is one of the cars on my “when the price drops low enough….” list.
Read a tire “test” recently (I believe in Car&Driver) that said if you buy winter tires, and only get 1 pair, whether FWD or RWD put the winter tires on the….BACK axle. But of course, a set of 4 winter tires is the best.
My “limited” experience is that folks who buy a car with AWD think it will make them impervious to getting stuck in “bad” weather and/or allows them to ignore the weather/road conditions when they are in a hurry.
Drove into a sudden snowstorm while driving my G20 on All-season tires, and discovered they were useless in snow as the tread quickly filled with packed snow.
As a Colorado skiier, I’ve been following the twice-annual ritual for decades. Around every solstice, my tire rotation involves swapping the winter tires and wheels for summer, and vice versa. There are few downsides to this strategy, aside from the initial cost. In summer and winter, I’m not driving a compromise.
The worst of all worlds, IMHO, would be an AWD car with summer tires in winter. Traction at all four corners has a way of hiding the slickness of the road. In a FWD car, the steering wheel wobbles like a crosscut saw, indicating the front wheels are dueling for traction. At least that tells you of the danger. Many mishaps with AWD vehicles in winter probably begin with the false confidence that they provide.
With the best option, winter tires on four wheels, you get another benefit that not even chains will provide– four wheel braking.
While I generally agree that a FWD with snows is enough, I can’t say it works 100% of the time. I live in a small rural town outside a city and out roads are not salted, and not well plowed. There have been several occasions where our FWD car which has Michelin X Ice3 tires just doesn’t have the ground clearance and gets hung up. Big snow days means it just can’t go until the plows come. Whereas my 4×4 truck with four winters is pretty much can make it through anything, even when the snow drags on the undercarriage. I usually leave for work before the plow comes by and have never not been able to make it due to the roads. That said if we lived in the city, I’d be fine with a FWD car exclusively. Last time I lived there, I got by fine with a RWD car and All Seasons (and a shovel in the trunk).
I don’t understand why people think AWD or 4×4 don’t need winter tires. AWD and 4×4 only really help with forward traction in snow, maybe a bit with turning, but certainly not at all with braking. Winter tires will help with all of the above. I have driven my truck on high end all seasons that are “supposed” to be good in the snow in 4×4 when we’ve had early snow falls. Its terrible for braking and turning traction compared to when it’s running 4×4 and winter tires.
We are looking at replacing our car in the next year and I am looking at Subaru AWD cars, not really because we need the AWD. Rather I want a more “station wagon” than SUV/crossover car and the Outback seems to be a top contender so far. If they made a Camry/Accord wagon I’d probably buy one of them over the Outback. That said, the extra ground clearance and AWD will help on the really bad days.
Understood. Everyone has different situations to deal with. We rarely have snow in the valley, so it’s quite a bit different for us.
Even in our situation where we had hellishly long, snowy and cold winters, we still try to use the FWD car as our primary car. The truck costs a lot more to operate so we try to only use it when we need to use it. When I was at the Subaru dealer they were trying to sell me on the AWD and how much better it is than the competition. I told the salesman I was aware of the AWD on Subaru’s was excellent compared to the competition, but quite frankly we’ve gotten by fine with a FWD car for many years. He didn’t really know what to say at that point.
I wholeheartedly recommend the Outback from my position as a wagon fan, really liked my ’14 before its unfortunate demise a year ago. That being said, the ’15 and newer is hugely better as far as interior materials quality is concerned. And the resale value makes it as close to free motoring as possible. The slightly higher height makes getting into and out of the thing easier than lower cars as well.
Thanks for the recommendation. I do really like the 2015+ models, and with the low depreciation I will probably just buy new. I miss having a wagon, and as long as my wife likes the car (I haven’t got her to the dealership yet), this will probably be the route we go.
+1 Bill. I live in a rural area too and find the wife’s ’07 Matrix with winter tires to be sufficient in town and on the highways unless we’re in a storm and ahead of the plows. Which happens pretty often. If that’s the case I use my Tacoma with studded winter tires, as well as for regular back country duty.
The main difference I find between regular winter tires and studs is adherence in really icy conditions. The worst is rain on top of compact snow; studs and 4×4 are really the only solution then.
Sounds like our situation Nelson. When it comes to driving ahead of the plows and on back roads, the truck is far better than the car. I had studded tires on my last truck and they were excellent in the conditions you describe. This truck though I went with a premium truck winter tire on dedicated wheels. They probably aren’t quite as good on glare ice or ice under snow as the studded tires, but are better in every other winter condition.
When my brother had his Tacoma 4×4, he had four studded tires and also drove an F250 diesel work truck with Goodyear Duratracs. The Ford couldn’t make it up his inclined driveway without 4WD and even then just barely on some days.. His Taco could do it in 2WD. It’s amazing how many people with trucks think that 4×4 is enough for the winter time and winter tires are a waste of money.
This is my first winter with the K2500 Chevy and Goodyear Duratracks. Previously it was a Tundra with General Grabber A/T’s. There are several variables, but, I can enter my driveway in 2wd now and needed to engage 4wd before. Two of the variables are tire profile and pressure. The Tundra had 70 series P-metric with 41 psi max (35 recommended). The Chevy, load range E 75 series LT. With the recommended 60 psi front and 80 psi rear, I can hear the icy snow “crunch” away.
Most but not all of the sizes of the DuraTrac are a true all season tire both earning the snow flake on the mountain and having a tread compound hard enough to be suitable for use in the summer too.
I grew up on the Southern shore of Lake Erie complete with ‘Lake Effect Snow’, and FWD with studded snows was the answer, until the State banned studs because of their impact on the roads. This was years ago, so I was surprised to see that apparently they’re legal in other places now.
For the past several years I’ve lived in Dallas where we see perhaps two snow storms a year (this year we haven’t even had frost yet) and when snow storms do appear, they are mostly freezing rain which simply cover everything with ice. Dallas is Pick-up truck country, and any
dudecowboy with pretensions of being cool must have AWD. As Bill Mitchell says above, it generally seems that AWD gives guys who grow up never seeing snow grand delusions. The roads here are generally flat and straight and it’s easy to build up speed with the AWD traction. Thus all is well and the flying is fine until they have touch the brakes because they’ve encountered a car going slow on a “bride-freezes-before-road-surface”. Although my “have to go to the office no matter what” days are over, back when I did have to drive to the other side of Dallas it wasn’t unusual to see a half-million or a million dollars worth of the finest pick-up trucks in the ditch. It all goes back to the old cliche that it doesn’t matter how good the equipment is if the nut that holds the wheel is defective.I find it necessary to point out that there’s a difference between 4WD and AWD. Very few pickups have AWD.
I didn’t find it worthwhile to make the distinction for my post, but I’m sure that every engineer here thanks you for pointing out the difference. Now, how was my grammar?
The only vehicle we saw in the ditch on this trip was a Ford F-150 4WD.
Logical. Intertia is important enemy of SUVs during winter time…
None of the winter driving I do in just FWD in my Mazda is improved much by turning on the AWD–if anything, it increases the risk of fishtailing. It’s mostly good for hooning. I got a CUV for the ground clearance.
For over 10 years, we owned a house located at nearly 7000 feet above sea level, in the Sierra Nevada mountains in California. After the first winter I had to give up on FWD with chains due to constantly getting high centered in deep snow and now traction to extract myself. I assume snow tires wouldn’t have helped. Got an AWD high clearance SUV, then a Forester. Both with all-season non-Snowflake tires, and never got stuck again. I could always reverse and power through or over any obstacle. But, I was very aware of traction limitations and cornered and braked accordingly. If I had lived there full time, I would certainly have gotten snow tires. All the locals used them, some with studs, a few (very few) with only 2wd. But I also noticed they drove faster to carry momentum which perhaps is OK if you know you can also stop and steer better. CHP, local sheriff, and all local contractors and service folks drove 4wd.
I paid $871 for new tires on my Ranger back in April, and have yet to try them out.
I have a set of studded snow tires on 15 inch Saturn rims, and the slightly larger diameter give my ’86 Jetta the added advantage of a little more ground clearance as well. I checked for speedo error and it’s only about 2 mph. Have never had problems getting where I need to go. They work great on a well balanced light front wheel drive car. I never have felt the need for AWD running a good set of winter tires.
a link to a winter tire test click here
Until last year we had one vehicle that had snow tires (RWD 911 with Blizzaks). At the time the other two cars/SUV’s were AWD with all-seasons. Last winter the best car in the snowy season was the 911 by a noticeable margin as long as the snow depth wasn’t too deep. The AWD’s (both full time, not slip and grip) were not nearly as good at accelerating, turning or braking when the roads were anything but dry. They were fine, but not great.
This year we got Blizzaks (one set DM-V1 and one set DM-V2, both the “light truck variant”) on both the AWD’s (having replaced the Chrysler 300AWD with a CUV) and I can confidently say that an AWD car/SUV/CUV with real snow tires absolutely is the shit. Even on cold/dry roads it grips better. Just got back from a ski trip to Wyoming, saw temps as low as -24F this morning but generally clear roads, the Blizzaks were fantastic both on the road as well as on the snow-covered trails. They easily pay for themselves both if you ever have even a small collision that could have been avoided and also partially in that you end up not using the regular tires as much so those last longer.
The biggest worry now is keeping an eye out behind us when stopping at light to see if others are able to stop as well. Like every other driver in the USA I believe my driving skills to be far above average 🙂 but I will happily use every advantage that is offered.
AWD + winter tires FTW.
Yes, the improvement in traction on cold (but dry) pavement is quite noticeable. It’s an important additional benefit in addition to the traction in snow.
My understanding is that the rubber staying soft in cold temps is the most important aspect that makes snow tires work better in snow, more than the different tread pattern. Or at least equally so.
Which is also what makes them less effective and wear faster in summer.
Exactly. You will notice over the next few years that traction will diminish a bit both as the tires wear (obvious) but also as they age. Lots of people here replace snow tires that seem to have plenty of tread but “age out” with the rubber getting harder and less grippy over the years. Or actually when they realize that winter traction isn’t what it once was, they leave them on all through the summer and wear them away and then in the fall get another set of winters.
Having driven whole summer on winter tyres (not by choice…) I used following winter, I would wholeheartedly recommend to everybody to avoid doing that.
Winter tyres don’t like temperatures over 15-20 C…
The superior performance in cold but not necessarily snowy weather is why “winter tire” is a better name than snow tire.
I agree. Because there are real snow tires, for regions where packed snow on roads remains there several months in a year.
It is on ice and firmly packed snow where the softer tread compound really shines. On loose and deeper snow it is not as big of an advantage. Loose, deep or wet snow is where the tread pattern is the most important thing.
As far as when to replace winter tires most companies say 6/32″ is the minimum depth recommended for use in all but the lightest snow. Many mfgs have a second tread depth indicator to show when the tires have reached their minimum snow depth. Some even use a different, harder, tread compound so that the tires can be “run out” in the summer.
Note I should clarify that unless the ice is totally dry no matter how soft and sticky the tread is it won’t stick and that tread pattern out of soft rubber that essentially squeegees away the water film is what allows the tire to grip the ice underneath. So tread design is still very important on ice.
5/32 is the legal minimum for a “snow” tire in California.
If you look at the tread of a winter tire carefully, you will see a much denser pattern of sipes than an all-season. That is what helps on ice.
I have studded General Altimax Arctics on my Civic. They did a great job on ice the other day, but even a couple of inches of snow on the road makes the car sway. My 2WD truck with the same tires would track straight in the same snow.
Those pictures remind me of Erie, PA back in the 70’s when I lived there, cross country skied all winter (cycling when it didn’t snow), and drove a Vega GT and a Monza 2+2. Did just fine in the lake effect snow areas with winter tyres.
Haven’t been X-C skiing in about ten years now, finally gave the skiis away this past summer when I realized that, if anything, winters in central VA were getting warmer with less chance of snow.
$365 for mounted, balanced Blizzaks seems like a really nice price.
Costco had a $70 off sale. And these are fairly small (185-65×15).
I thought that was a crazy deal too. For comparison, I paid $1800 Cdn for studded 16 inchers on my Tacoma, but tire prices are stupid here. That was “on sale” too. Six months later I bought slightly bigger summer tires for $900 Cdn in Montana on tirerack.com. Canadian pesos are down near $0.70 US now but it’s still a better deal down south.
And how much do you pay for healthcare? 🙂
But, it’s free, isn’t it?? 🙂
IMO, the key hazard of AWD in winter is that it masks the real nature of the road conditions, lulling the driver into over-confidence and over-driving the conditions. In 4WD, by the time you feel the vehicle slipping, you’re already in deep trouble.
Though I prefer my Sequoia to my Mazda in winter, I generally keep it in 2WD only until I know how the roads are, and then put it in 4WD only when needed.
And yes, I run dedicated winters on both. Have for 15 years, and they’ve proven their worth so often I’ll never go back.
I was so happy after moving from MN that studded tires are legal in VT. Always have had small FWD, preferably manual transmission, cars and have driven by many SUVs (and Subarus) in varying depths of ditches, proving the old adage “4WD just means you’ll be deeper in when you do get stuck”. One thing I learned early on from motorcycles is NEVER go cheap on tires. And yet snow tires are free as they save wear on your summer tires. Besides avoiding one tow, or worse, an accident, can pay for a set of tires.
This year for several reasons I left the studded snow tires on my landscaping company Taurus SW. I pulled several trailer loads of mulch across a clients lawn and learned they also do less damage to the grass due to spinning tires (none) then the 4×4 trucks and mowers the lawn service use.
Maybe less damage to the lawn, but studded tires destroy road pavement. Sorry, but I’m very anti-studs. Our freeways have horrible ruts in them from the studs. As soon as one crosses over into California, the ruts are gone.
Don’t be sorry. I do remember the ruts in the interstate before studs were banned in MN. In MN the temp got cold and stayed there. Here in New England the temps and precipitation types cycle so much you can count on pretty icy roads several times a month. Storms that start as a 1/4″ of rain and end with 6″+ of snow are not uncommon so studs are a really good idea. Add in that population densities are so much lower, and percentage of unpaved roads so much higher in VT that on the whole road damage seems a non issue here compared to just the general wear and tear of large trucks at high speeds on the Montreal/Boston/New York run. In any case some time soon after April 15 they are banned in our surrounding states (not sure on PQ) so the studs come off the cars that go over 4K a year pretty quickly.
Really, you only need studs on sheet ice. Proper snow tire, like Dunlop Wintersport 3D or 4D, or Goodyear Ultra Grip 7 is enough for 99,99% of driving conditions during wintertime.
And even then the studs only really excel on that sheet ice if it is soft, if the ice is really hard the studs don’t bite as well and a proper winter tire can do almost as well.
So yeah I’ll take modern studless winter tires over the old school studded tires. Of course in the US if you want a studable tire your options are mainly limited to the old school “mud and snow tires” though I do understand that in Europe you can get proper winter tires that are studable. Old school mud and snow tires when studded have pretty poor traction when the roads are dry or wet so you are trading for worse traction most of the time for what can be very limited situations where they do better than a good modern winter tire.
My vehicles all have either studs or snows and there are just some, admittedly infrequent conditions where the studded stop better.. And though I understand the physics of why all vehicles have similar traction while stopping I have experimented with my Truck which can run 2wd, AWD or locked 4wd and it will stop better in 4 lock simply because the rear wheels force the fronts to keep rolling since the driveshafts are locked together. Turns worse though. A skidoo in the back helps as well. As do v-bar chains. My daily driver with FWD is usually good enough for most conditions.
may I throw my 2 cents(5 cents American!) in on this. I have lived both backwoods country and city and have had rwd,fwd and now my first 4wd.
growing up in the Ontario countryside snow tires were always a given. most vehicles I drove were big,rwd cars and good snows and some weight in the back got me thru places where a modern awd would have feared to tread. since moving into the city I mostly had fwd and a mix of all season and snows if the car came with them. my jeep has all seasons.
the two biggest observations I found were no matter what you have on your vehicle, similar to what we are all taught about lighting at night..DON’T OVERDRIVE YOUR TIRES! I think you have to recognize not only your driving limitations but the limitations of the particular car/tire setup you are driving. I don’t feel I am a above average driver but when I have remembered this rule I have always got thru in whatever vehicle combo I have been driving. when I haven’t is when I usually end up becoming a four wheel hockey puck on the road….the car’s off the boards, its in play, he shoots, he scores!
the other thing is if you are using winter tires, spend the money for good ones! it drives me nuts when somebody lectures about the safety of winter tires and then you see the snows on their vehicle are no-name cheapy specials or on their sixth winter and worn right down. I have been notoriously cheap on my summer tires at times, but if I buy winter tires I always try and go for the best winter tires I can afford.
lol…and yes…before the lectures start, I have learned the hard way decent tires any time of the year are smarter. 😉
I started out driving in 2wd Rangers and Mustangs that were terrible in winter. My subsequent 4×4 and FWD vehicles have been so much better overall there’s really no comparison. And they do stop better too, thanks to modern ABS. And now with stability and traction control standard on most new vehicles they should be better than ever.
But they aren’t, because manufacturers insist on putting huge wide tires on anything and everything these days. More contact area = less traction on icy surfaces.
I grew up in the lake effect belt in west Michigan.
First: echo what Bill said about ground clearance. If the snow is deep enough that it packs up under the floor or gas tank, you’re stopped. The 2-3″ extra ground clearance an SUV has could mean the difference between going and not going.
Traction control has received a lot of development in the last few years. In my Ford Taurus-X, the trac control seemed to work by cutting off gas to the engine as I would hear and feel a series of loud bangs in sync with the trac control light’s flashing and it didn’t take much to provoke it with my Michelin Primacy all seasons.
My Jetta wagon is much more subtle in it’s operation. VW uses the brakes to mimic a limited slip diff, and I suspect to also perform the trac control function, rather than cutting fuel like the Ford. The Jetta is still wearing the OEM Bridgestone Turanzas that have horrible reviews on Tirerack, particularly for snow/ice traction. I had the Jetta through the two previous winters which set records for low temps and snow fall here in metro Detroit, including driving the car home from the dealer in a near blizzard the day I bought it. Not only has the car behaved very well in snow, I started wondering if the trac control worked at all because I never saw the light flash or heard/felt it operating, but I never heard any wheelspin either. Finally managed to provoke the trac control with an injudicious throttle application in about 4″ of loose snow that was so cold it would not stick together. Still no sound or feel of the system working, just a few flashes from the light. I have a hard time provoking the ABS as well, as I rarely hear it cycling, but hardly ever notice the tires slipping.
So it could be that your Scion’s trac control and ABS are as subtle as the VW’s and the excellent mobility you experience is a combination of good tires and subtle driver’s aids that don’t attract attention by making a ton of noise and vibration when they operate
Studded tires were banned in Michigan around 1971.
I think Ford’s system of cutting off the fuel is an improvement over the brake controlled traction control. In the early ’90s, Ford Crown Victoria, Lincoln Mark VIII were equipped with city speed traction control available at speed lower than 45mph, and it doesn’t cut off the fuel line. In the user manual, it says when TC warning light is illuminated in the central dashboard, it indicates the rear brake is overheating and TC no longer works for protection.
In the case of Mark VIII, it’s very reasonable how TC only works below 45mph, as the handing of the particular car is very unpredictable and a sudden application of rear brake can be dangerous at higher speed.
The Taurus X has all speed traction control that uses both the ABS and reduced power output to control traction. The first defense is applying the brake on the offending wheel but if that does not do the job then they will cut engine power. So you have to be significantly exceeding the available traction to have the engine power cut.
The first defense is applying the brake on the offending wheel but if that does not do the job then they will cut engine power.
That makes me question those pricey Michelin tires with show/ice ratings on Tirerack of “exellent” to “good”, I had on it then. Not only would it break loose easily pulling away from a stop sign, I remember the trac control kicking in when I was cruising at steady speed down a clear dry road and hit a patch of ice that had formed from a partially melted pile of snow. Meanwhile the cheap Bridgestones, with their snow/ice ratings on Tirerack ranging from “fair” to “unacceptable”, on the VW seem to perform better.
Upstate NY resident and winter sport enthusiast. Absolutely true. FWD and 4 good snow tires trumps 4wd/AWD and allseasons. Mini cooper clubman is a great snowmobile on Pirelli snowcontrol model snowtires. will get me to any NY Alpine or XC area. Until there are several inches of unplowed snow that i catch with the front air dam. then it is best to leave that car home. On packed snow, I can easily pass the subarus on their all seasons holding up traffic in front of me. these pirellis dont sacrifice the dry pavement control and feel the way earlier gen Blizzaks did. Our other car is an old FWD 96 Buick regal shod in Michelin xice i3s. amazing good choice if you are looking and probably the quietest riding snow tires I have ever had. if is not passable around here in either of our 2 cars, the county has closed the roadways for blizzard conditions.
There seems to be increasing consensus that despite the big AWD push by automakers, you’re better off spending your money on winter tires for your 2WD car than the extra purchase cost and lower fuel economy of an AWD car, given a choice between the two. I’m set on a FWD car, but am in a quandry about two things:
– Should I buy a set of winter tires pre-mounted on new wheels, or save the cost of new wheels and pay a tire shop to swap tires on my existing wheels twice a year?
– If I go the first route, should I “minus-size” the winter tires, that is replace the 18″ tires on a Golf GTI with 17″ or 16″ rims (perhaps steelies) and taller tires yielding the same overall diameter but with more tire and less wheel? (I first need to check whether smaller wheels will fit on the GTI, and if whether they do depends on the presence of the Performance Package with its larger brakes. The standard Golf starts with 15-inchers). Anyway, I often read that low-profile tires don’t work as well in snow and ice as taller tires.
– Should I buy a set of winter tires pre-mounted on new wheels, or save the cost of new wheels and pay a tire shop to swap tires on my existing wheels twice a year?
I would definitely go the extra set of wheels. Mounting and dismounting repeatedly risks damaging the bead of the tire.
As to your second question, generally snows would go on cheap steel wheels, which would usually be the smallest wheel, as you say 15″ on a base Golf. What fits with the extra large brakes on your GTI, I don’t know.
Personally I’m a second set of wheels person but I drive vehicles that I can seem to find used factory aluminum wheels for cheap on craigslist. I payed $50 for the set for both my wife’s car and my daily driver.
For the wife’s car I went the -1″, the primary reason is that the factory 17″ wheels with their wider tires can not use chains while the base 16″ size can. In WA you must have chains in the vehicle in the winter if you are in the passes so I needed a size that could take chains.
On my car I actually went +1″ for my winter tires. That was mainly a function of the fact that I found a set of 4 brand new winter tires in that size at the wrecking yard for $200 while the going price for that particular tire is $125-$150 each. I also had a set of $50 craiglist wheels in that size waiting for them. I should note that the +1″ for my 05 is the base size for 06 and up and I normally run +2″ in the summer so technically you could say I -1″ for my winters.
As far as width/aspect ratio and height goes, on Ice a wider tire is better but in deep snow the thinner tire is better all other things equal.
Personally I’d go -1″ or even -2″ if they will clear the brakes if for no other reason that the tires will be cheaper and you’ll be more likely to find smaller wheels that someone has taken off, and are selling cheap on craiglist, because they put on something bigger. I bet you can probably get a set of used 16″/17″ wheels and appropriate smaller tires than a set of 18″ winter tires by themselves.
Thanks, and looking on craigslist for used alloys from people upsizing their wheels is a great idea – especially for a Golf since VW supplies 15″, 16″, 17″, 18″, and 19″ alloys as standard equipment depending on model and options. I imagine the first three must be quite commonly sold. Nicer than buying new steelies (and probably Pep Boys hubcaps to cover them).
The big plus with wheels someone has taken off of their car to upgrade is that you know they are the exact right wheel for the car. With the aftermarket wheels whether they are steel or aluminum you may find that they vary a bit in the offset and/or lack a center bore that fits the hub correctly. The aftermarket tries to make a wheel that will fit as many cars as possible so for example they may say their wheel with a 40mm offset is correct for cars that came with anywhere between 35mm and 45mm. No 5mm is not that significant but why spend as much or more on a steelie that “works” vs a used aluminum wheel that is right.
Of course a lot of that depends on the market in your area. I’m blessed that 05-14 Mustang wheels fit properly on my 03-up Panthers and Mustangs are one of those cars that people love to “upgrade” the wheels on. That means that there are lots of them on craiglist that people just want gone and are willing to sell cheap. My most recent acqusition was a set of 17s that I paid $100 for all 4 with tires, 2 of which have 90% of their tread.
Confirming what others have said already, FWD is nice to have but not strictly necessary if you have proper snow tires. As a student (and long thereafter) I drove a 1992 Ford Escort CLX diesel; the combination of snow tires, heavy diesel engine over the driven wheels and low down torque made it unstoppable. Never got stuck or chain up (and even with climate change, we DO get heavy snow every now and then in Austria).
I traveled 126 over to Madras and back on Thanksgiving day, and again the day after, and it was no problem at all with the AWD Ford Edge (stock tires only). (No way I was going to drive the ’81 Safari) Of course, there was no where near as much packed snow on the road then as there is now. I’m thinking the Edge would have done OK, though. I have chains, just in case.
As testament to the fact that winter traction really is all about tires and weight distribution, I offer this: Over nearly 30 years of northeastern US winters the absolute most foolproof snow car I ever drove was a ’75 MG Midget back in the late ’80’s. As a poor student I could only afford one car, and as an eternal optimist and a rather frivolous youth the MG was the one. I did invest in snow tires, but the near 50/50 weight distribution of that car with body weight over the drive wheels counterbalancing the weight of the engine over the steering wheels combined with the relatively high profile skinny little 13″ tires made the thing unstoppable. In hindsight I’ve often shuddered at the near insanity of driving that thing through the mountains of northwestern NJ in the snow, but it NEVER even hinted at getting stuck, and it tracked flawlessly the through up to 6″ unplowed on my family’s 1/4 mile long rutted hilly driveway. Reliability, on the other hand…well, one can just imagine.
Ironically it had an amazing heater and defroster “system” too. You’d turn the heat on under the bonnet in the fall, direct air to footwells or windscreen by flipping open or closing metal duct flaps under the dash, and you were good to go. It was a better winter car than it was in the summer, as old British roadsters are hot and cranky in warmer weather, but with manual choke and simple fuel systems they were fantastic in the cold. God do I miss that little car sometimes.
I will be curious to see how my new-to-me car does this winter…97 Volvo V90 wagon, last of the rear wheel drive Volvos, with the cold weather package, which includes a limited slip rear end…we get so little snow in SW Ohio that I have never bothered with winter tires, but I truly don’t know what to expect from this old tank. It has Goodrich Touring T/A tires with 5,000 miles on them…we shall see.
My best VW Beetle snowy-driving story is from the early 80s…had a 69 Beetle, and due to driving like an idiot, got it in a ditch. I was all alone, so I put it in gear, and let the back wheels spin, hopped out and pushed it out of the ditch, while it was trying to drag itself out…jumped in, and off I went. That thing had NO heat, but it was impossible to get stuck.
Winter tires are the way to go if you live in an area that will see snow or regularly sees cold temps I don’t care which of or how many wheels are driven. Note I said winter tires and not snow or mud and snow tires. You want that snowflake on the mountain symbol not just M+S. The M+S just means that the tread looks like it will work in mud and snow while the snowflake symbol has to be earned by showing traction in ice and snow.
Personally my current favorite winter tire is the Continental ExtremeWinterContact. The thing that sold me on them is that their traction on wet roads is not compromised nearly as much as most winter tires. The tirerack test showed all about the same in the snow but the ExtremeWinterContact was far better on wet roads. It was the winner on the snow road course too. The other plus is they are pretty quiet.
That said I’ve only got those on my wife’s car and I have no complaints about the performance in snow of Goodyear Ultra Grip Ice and Ultra Grip Ice WRT that are on my and my daughter’s cars. I can’t say I would have picked those, if buying new, but they were both found barely used for a fraction of the new price.
I live on a fairly steep county road that connects to the state highway. So, I often see cars struggling to make it up the hill in winter. AWD and “summer” tires made for entertainment a couple of winters ago. A Subaru WRX had made a run for it and ran out of momentum, and traction right in front of my house. It was spinning in place, multiple 360’s at the same spot. A couple of us got out and gave it a push and he did eventually make it to highway 18, which is so well traveled that it was wet, not icy.
Back in the early 70’s in Buffalo, NY I Had a ’69 VW bug. Picked up a used pair of studded snow tires………….needless to say nothing stopped that Bug!