For the second time in my life, a car I had become quite fond of was taken out by the combination of a careless driver and an insurance company. My faithful little Honda Odyssey had been totaled and, after a sustained application of the skills I had picked up in 20+ years in insurance law, I (finally) had a check that was in an amount at the low end of reasonable (instead of at the middle of ridiculous). You know by now what that meant. Yes, I needed another car.
I had become quite used to the utility of the Odyssey and decided that maybe another minivan might be the play. I had a new Town & Country rental, but its time was coming to an end and I had to get a move on. After failing to find another Odyssey like mine, I widened my search criteria. I remembered the words of my friend Ed, who had groused about how buying a car when you really needed to buy a car was a terrible experience – you either settle for something you don’t want or you pay too much. Or both. I wished someone like me would come along with a car like my old Scamp to provide a buffer and the luxury of some time for deliberate car shopping. But I had no such luck. I needed a vehicle and needed one pretty quickly.
What I expected the silver T&C would look like in another two years, with rust eruptions under paint bubbles on every single panel below the roof.
The first decent candidate was a 2001 Chrysler Town & Country I found on the List of Craig. Marianne and I made arrangements to meet the owner and we did, at around 4:30 pm on the Thursday before Easter of 2010. This car wasn’t really up to my standards. It needed a good cleaning inside, but the owner claimed that he had a friend who was a Chrysler dealer mechanic who had maintained it well. This was the first year of the 4th generation van, and I quickly discovered a problem – these things liked to rust. As I walked around the van after a brief test drive, it was apparent that every single panel was showing the little paint bubbles that marked the beginnings of some nasty rust – something not easy to disguise or remedy on a silver vehicle. I ran a CarFax report and I could see that the thing had spent its early life in Wisconsin and Michigan, which explained why it was rustier than I was used to seeing. I hit him with a lowball offer and kind of hoped he wouldn’t take it. He didn’t. So Marianne and I got back in the car and drove – not home. While test-driving the silver Rust & Country, we had passed a house where another Chrysler minivan was sitting in the front yard with a “For Sale” sign in the windshield. So we went there.
Van #2 was everything Van #1 was not. It was not rusty, but was clean and straight both inside and out. I recognized that this was a later Gen 3 van and was especially delighted at the price in the window – which I think was just a bit over $2k. The van was like my Odyssey in that it had really high miles but didn’t look like it. The owner walked out and told me that he had owned it since it was 2 or 3 years old and had put most of the miles on. The van had made a long daily loop running kids from their rural home to one of the Catholic high schools in Indianapolis, and regular trips two-plus hours north to a lake house. The car had clearly been well maintained, but the owner had bought a newer vehicle so this one had to go.
The moment I drove it I realized that it was just right. Like the Honda, it would have passed for a vehicle with half the miles it showed (which was, I think, about 187k). The 3.3 V6 was smooth and the 4 speed automatic (with the bad reputation) shifted beautifully. I had cash in my pocket and when the guy got down to $1800 I bought a car. And guess what happened on the drive home. Yes, the owner of the rusty silver minivan called to tell me that he had thought it over and maybe he would accept my offer. “Oh, I’m sorry to hear that, because I just bought another Chrysler minivan.” Yes, that kind of conversation on the telephone was still a great feeling.
There were some things to do to the T&C, and I had the budget for it because it had cost well under what I got for the Oddy. My mechanic told me it was ready for brakes, so we did that. He did a headlight rejuvenation treatment because those on the car were really cloudy. And the passenger window regulator was shot so we did that too. I went to a junkyard to replace a a broken outside mirror and to a Chrysler dealer to buy a vacuum actuator for one of the HVAC controls, which I installed myself. Those things plus a new set of Michelins and I was in business, with under $3,500 all in.
From the moment I first drove it, I suddenly understood why Chrysler’s minivans had ruled the U.S. market. Its structure was taut. This made it squeak and rattle free, like the Mopars of my younger days. A co-worker had a 2004 Odyssey (the last year of the 2nd generation van) that twisted and creaked worse than my ’59 Plymouth, and made me feel all the better about mine. The 3.3 was not overly strong, but it was OK – and far better than the overmatched 4 in my prior van. The driving position fit me perfectly, just as all of my favorite Chrysler-built cars had done.
It had been a long time since the 70’s and I was quite happy with the not-common light green paint, which looked really good with the monochrome treatment on the Chryslers – far nicer than it did on the low level Plymouths or Dodges with the gray plastic bumpers. This one even had the up-level wheels that dressed it up nicely. But for all that, the interior was where the good stuff really was. Mine was the low-level LX trim, but I was soon spoiled by the dozens of thoughtful little touches that Chrysler had put into these. The little cargo net bag between the front seats, the dual-zone HVAC system, the built-in garage door button and so much else. The car had the top-level (Infinity, I think) stereo, which sounded really great, and best of all, it had the light grayish green interior and not one that was plain gray or tan.
This was actually one of the most satisfying vehicles I could recall driving. The outside door handle was an ergonomic gem, and the door both opened and closed with the most reassuring sounds and sensations. Chrysler had really sweat the details on these because all of the controls and switchgear felt positively luxurious. There had been much to love about my prior vans, which had been kind of opposites on the van spectrum. The oversized Club Wagon was roomy, luxurious and powerful, if a little crude in some ways. The undersized Odyssey was a touch cramped and was both plain and slow, but it did its job with unusual finesse. This Chrysler reminded me of Baby Bear’s porridge from the children’s story – it was juuuust right. It was roomy enough, powerful enough, attractive enough and luxurious enough. It was kind of like an automotive Swiss Army Knife that did almost everything well.
But. Not everything was rainbows and lollipops. I learned that a high-mile Chrysler was not the same as a high-mile Honda. Yes, I had known this on some level, but the point was driven home in many small ways. Bit by bit little things needed attention. I had to recharge the a/c each spring. The inner CV joints started to cause vibrations and had to get replaced. It started running terribly and needed plugs, which I discovered is a horrible job on these, something I decided to let my mechanic do. He suspected that the back 3 plugs had never been changed. I didn’t like spending more money on it, but liked the car so much that I did. It tricked me, really, into treating it like a good car instead of like the cheap utility beater I had bought when I had a tight deadline for finding a car. My investment crept up and up, but I was rewarded by a really pleasing minivan.
Dad and Kid No. 3 on some random occasion at grandma’s house. And whose idea had it been to remove the winged emblem from the grilles of later models. That emblem allowed anyone to spot a Town & Country from a block away.
It came in quite handy when our eldest headed off to college in the fall of 2010. The light green Chrysler was bigger than the Odyssey and swallowed all of the supplies and equipment required for dorm living, and easily hauled it the hour and a half drive that separated that dorm room from our home. And it converted back to passenger duty for our now-smaller family.
This was another vehicle that I drove all over the place. I also noticed something interesting: There have been two kinds of cars that I have used as daily drivers. Some of them were cars that, when given the opportunity, I left parked as I drove the car that was Marianne’s usual ride. The Oldsmobile and the Cadillac were nice, but I still liked the Club Wagon and looked forward to driving it. This Town & Country was the opposite. I enjoyed driving our Honda Fit but I enjoyed this T&C so much that I seldom made the switch purely out of my own preference. Also, this was the car that photobombed some of my earliest CC photos
A few weeks after our second annual Move Your Kid To College Day, we were preparing to make a Sunday visit to see the lad when tragedy struck. By this time my office location was a mere mile from my home. Marianne had been working there part-time in an admin capacity and she had run there and back to do something. Because the van was out, she took it. When she came home, she said something wasn’t right with it. “Nonsense”, I thought, “the van is fine”. Backing out of the driveway and progressing about ten feet towards Bloomington, Indiana was long enough to tell me that she was right. It was a sensation I had never experienced, it was like something was alternatively locking up and letting go in the drive train. We parked the van and took another car. I resisted the urge to ask “Just WHAT did YOU do to my car!?!?”
I had to get it to my mechanic, and it would have to be towed. Which seemed like a good time to join AAA. The fine print said that the free towing benefit would not kick in for 5 days. On day 6 my van was towed to my mechanic for a diagnosis. “It’s your transmission. Something inside it broke.” He told me that it appeared to be original and un-messed-with. Which, if true, would make it perhaps the longest one of those units had ever lasted in a Chrysler minivan. I had been paying attention to the transmissions shifts since I first bought the van, knowing that when it started acting funny it would be time to sell. I did not, however, expect a catastrophic failure with no warning. The verdict was that they could rebuild it there for about $2500. I was still occasionally reminded at home about the transmission rebuild I had paid for on the Oldsmobile a little more than a decade earlier. But that had been a really sweet car with under 55k miles. This was an aging Chrysler minivan with maybe 225k on it. One look at Marianne’s face told me that the finance committee would turn down any request for a repair.
After thinking on it for a few days, it was clear that the van was going to have to go and would have to do so without a new transmission from me. The sad part was that everything else about that van was really right, right down to the 3.3 V6 that had not used a drop of oil since I had owned it. Somehow a conversation got started with a staffer at the office, and a deal was struck. I would give her the van, and she would pay to have the transmission done. Thus, the investment-meter would reset for her and she would have a really nice old minivan with a freshly rebuilt transmission, all for $2,500. Me? After a happy year-and-a-half, I was again in need of another car.
That minivan had a whole lot of good in it. It was the first product of Chrysler built after Lee Iacocca was handed the keys to the company that I had really come to love. And I did love it. I loved how solid it was, how beautifully it drove, and how quiet and comfortable it was. It dawned on me that the thing weighed at least as much as my long-gone ’68 Chrysler Newport, and I came to appreciate the minivan as the new American big car. And in case you are wondering, its next owner got several more good years out of it, eventually getting close to (or exceeding) the 300k miles I had been quietly gunning for.
I also realized around this time that I had made a tremendous turnaround in the way I approached cars. Where I had once bought for love in a series of quickly-fading infatuations, I had gone to the other extreme – finding a vehicle I really liked and sticking with it, probably longer than made good sense. But to this day I still light up a little on the increasingly rare occasions when I see one of these Gen 3 vans on the road. It was good to be able to look back on the realization that I had experienced “Peak Chrysler Minivan”. We don’t learn things like this until much time has passed into the rear view. But when we find that we lucked into a particular vehicle when its manufacturer had things humming just right, we can smile with a warm feeling inside as we realize just how lucky we were.
But I certainly did not feel lucky in early September of 2011 because I had to find some new wheels, and fast. Only this time, Marianne was determined to play more of a role in our choice.
These were great vans.
I owned a ’98 Caravan and an ’03 T&C (with the 3.3L) and both were excellent.
I had them back-to-back so comparing them was easy. The newer van had a few improvements such as bigger and better headlights (and to me better seats but that could be trim level) but lost none of the tautness and longevity of the ’98.
Now I have somehow found myself daily-driving a time-capsule 2000 Concorde (60,000 miles!) which has the same wheels as your van.
I think my only dissatisfaction was how I wished mine had the 3.8 engine instead of the 3.3. That family of engines does not get the respect they deserve. Everyone goes on about the Buick 3.8, but these are every bit that engine’s equal, if not even better. I was sorry to see that family of engines go away.
The 3.3-3.8 engines were another of Bill Weertman’s babies; he of Slant-6; 2.2-2.5; 273-318-340-360, and 426 Hemi fame (etc).
What a great way to start a Sunday morning with another excerpt from JP’s Chronicle of Cars. One of my favorite features at CC is reading the very entertaining car ownership histories. I had the privilege of owning a 1993 Chrysler LeBaron Coupe which came with one of these transmissions. It died on my way to work while in traffic. I coasted into a nearby parking lot and left it there and proceeded to the office on foot. It was snowing, it was a half mile walk, and I was wearing a suit, loafers, and carrying the office morning coffee order. The car had 23k miles on it and was three years old. It was soon traded for a Honda Civic. Keep the stories coming and I look forward to the next installment.
My biggest fear in buying that minivan was the transmission. Everyone I knew with a Chrysler minivan had eventually needed a rebuild if they owned it long enough. I had expected the prior owner to tell me of at least one rebuild in the vans 187k miles, but he said no – he had owned it since it was only a couple of years old and had never had trouble.
Even when mine failed, it was not the typical way those failed, but because of a broken shaft internally. Right up until that moment it had still been shifting beautifully.
The 3.8L engine was often what you found in these vans, and it provided better performance as opposed to the 3.3L although at a fuel economy penalty. Unfortunately, as you pointed out early in the story, the tin worm loved these vans. The ones that are still running have major rust on all door bottoms, the sills, the tailgate, and the hood. But they’re still running in daily use! A testament to the utility and practicality of design. My 95 short wheelbase Voyager with 3.3L is still going strong after 28 years.
In my area the 3rd gen (1996-2000) were far less rust-prone than the 4th gen (2001-07) versions. But you are right that the earlier ones would rust too. That was another reason I bought mine, because the body was so nice. Even after my staffer had owned it for awhile, it still looked pretty good.
I saw a really high trim T&C like mine on the road awhile back – it looked like it had been owned by some elderly owner and was simply gorgeous. For just a moment I really had an urge to follow the guy and ask if he wanted to sell it.
Chrysler FWD transmissions … our 1995 Eagle Vision TSi transmission went into limp home mode twice, and we paid to fix it, twice. Same with the A/C and some other systems.
Let’s not dwell on the fact that the T&C van eventually ran to 300K under new ownership; that is an unproductive form of thinking.
You clearly are a wiser car owner than I. Cut ties; stop losses; try something new(er).
But even after the debacle of the Eagle Vision, we bought a PT Cruiser from the same Chrysler/Jeep dealer and it was a long term winner.
Sometimes I think the whole mystery of car purchasing and ownership is a guessing game, with some rewards available if one applies logic, a careful inspection, what day of the week the vehicle was built, and a bit of luck.
But even then, no guarantees.
That is my challenge – “the next repair”. I have become quite good at justifying “the next repair” because I understand the economists view of “sunk costs” – what you have put into a vehicle up to now is irrelevant. The question is what will the next repair get you. Market value of the vehicle is irrelevant, because if $500 will get you back into a good, functional car, then it’s a win because you can’t buy anything new/as good for anywhere close.
Marianne looks at “the next repair” and compares it with the car’s market value. “The car isn’t worth it” has come from her mouth fairly often. I think most of the world thinks like she does.
I’ve lived both of those mindsets. And there’s externalities. For example “what do you mean you’re not giving rides in the tow trucks anymore?”
JP, I agree, the typical “it’s not worth it ” analysis makes little sense in older cars. Often it’s worth it to repair older the car you have, as it’s a known quantity, taxes paid and in your name. Replacing it means one is in another old car, with its own risks and expenses.
My cheap 93 Marquis needed a new transmission a few years ago. I didn’t view the $2000 repair as adding value to the car, (it didn’t) I viewed it as buying additional mileage. As the car has accumulated another 50k km (and still going), it was a good investment in transportation utility.
Same here. Our 1990 Sable needed a transmission major rebuild in the 1995-96 time frame, and we seriously thought of replacing it with a used car. But “the devil you know” means something, and we went ahead with the repair, which seemed quite high at the time at $1600.
Having driven at least two Dodge versions of this generation, I fully agree with how nice these were. Plus, with yours being a Chrysler, I can only imagine how the niceness quotient increased.
Everything felt just right, the seating position seemed tailer made, and the 3.3 was an ideal engine.
While your time with it was short, it was a good short time. Many of us have had the bad short time which always seems to stretch the ownership experience exponentially.
Yes, it was a good experience – right up to when it wasn’t. You are right that this is far better than something like my old 77 New Yorker that never had a catastrophic failure, but was also never really right the whole time I had it.
I will confess that I enjoyed the little added touch of prestige that came from it being a Chrysler instead of a Plymouth or a Dodge. I used to love that big chromed winged emblem on the grille. Whoever decided to eliminate that was an idiot, because everyone could tell the guy who spent the extra money on the Chrysler from a block away.
Whoever deleted it was a beancounter, most likely, who got an atta for reducing cost by 7¢ per car.
Or perhaps not a beancounter, but a designer who felt the purity of their grille design had been violated and besmirched by a vulgar chrome excrescence.
Probably a beancounter, though; the other is in mind because of an editorial quarrel I won the other day at work after a self-important designer’s wig caught on fire in re an edit I made in trying to turn his word salad into an article. He had a public tantrum and demanded his name be taken off the article. I politely reminded him his pieces don’t get a byline; the only name they’re published under is that of the publication.
I wasn’t there, but I seriously doubt that a tantrum, private or public, was warranted.
It very much wasn’t.
The often (very) high depreciation rate of Chrysler products, can make them a decent secondhand car choice, if you don’t plan to hold it too long. Or factor in, replacing the transmission, and other replacement parts. Given you paid, $1,800, you got a lot for the money.
I bought a 2005 Jeep Liberty Renegade in 2009 for a fraction of the original $39,000 cost, and I enjoyed it for five years, with reasonable maintenance and repairs.
The trick is finding used cars with low resale because they are not popular rather than used cars with low resale because they have reputations as annuities for mechanics. I think that the first kind has been getting harder to find in recent years.
I’ve recommended this concept to many people looking for cheap wheels. I advise to buy the best possible example of an unpopular (and thus cheap) car. Look to Buick, Lincoln, Mercury, owned by an older person. Nobody wants them (thus cheap!) but likely they will be pristine low mileage creampuffs (good!).
Nobody listens, because they rely on the trope that the only good cars are Toyota and Honda. Inevitably they over-pay for those in-demand brands or end up with high mileage junk.
“low resale because they are not popular”
I’ve found any sedan qualifies today. Bought two during the pandemic after both sat for sale for more than a month and asking prices dropped and dropped and dropped.
And $39K for Liberty!!
Precisely, the hit ’em where they ain’t strategy.
The simple fact that a Liberty – ANY Liberty – ever approached a 40 Grand sticker is astonishing.
In the late 1990’s, my mother wanted a purple Grand Caravan with four doors, bucket seats, a CD player, and keyless entry. We ended up with a white 1994 Nissan Quest with three doors, rear bench seats, a cassette player, and no keyless entry. In the early 2000s, the Chrysler minivan fix was still there, and a base 2001 T&C was purchased. This sat in the garage and served as “weekend” status only, as my mother was a traveling nurse and had something that got way better gas mileage. Turns out she loved driving the T&C so much, that in 2005, my parents purchased a brand new T&C with the lauded Stow&Go seating. I remember my first ride in the 2005 and realizing some of the nice small features of the 2001 were missing, as well as the fit and finish of the new van being less than the 2001.
The 1990’s Chrysler minivans were like nothing else at the time. They really were in a class of their own. They used to be everywhere, and now, they seem to be disappearing.
I will be the first to confess that I had never really understood why people kept buying these after the transmission woes became known. I knew more than one person who would shrug and acknowledge that they knew an eventual transmission rebuild would be an expected item, but they were ok with that. But even during my first test-drive, I finally understood.
Yes, the 1996 Chrysler vans completely blew the 1995 Windstar out of the water, and that was before the terrible reliability of the latter’s 3.8 V6 and auto tranny became well known.
We purchased a Dodge Caravan in 2013 after renting one for a driving vacation. I would agree that the Chrysler vans were all and more quoted in this article. Our 2013 made nearly 200,000 miles in 7 years – and served flawlessly. Brakes, oil changes, tires. Near the end the ac needed recharged in the spring…and finally it needed a front end (Toronto streets being much like Berlin after the bombing)…so we traded it in on a 2020 Chrysler Pacifica Limited. Everything the Dodge was an more! The mini-van segment is dying (sadly) – but it makes sense why Chrysler still owns it – they still make the best mini-van going!
I am happy to hear about your good experiences. I had understood that the minivans of the 2010s were good, long-lived units. Unfortunately, my resistance to them were based on two things – the slightly flexible structure and the transmission shifting logic that I have found irritating. Both of those things were absent from my 99, and from the vehicle that replaced it.
I have not yet driven a Pacifica, but find them very attractive.
With some qualms about quality and of the 2008-2010 models, even this Chrysler critic has to praise their minivans.
I came to appreciate that every US manufacturer had its crown jewel, the one that they really put effort into designing and building to make them best in class. With Ford it was the F series truck. With GM it had been the large sedans and also the Suburban. With Chrysler it was the minivan, especially that 3rd generation.
Knowing what two of the last chapters are – unless they’re the cars of your offspring, the other two last chapters look to be a total surprise.
What is life without a little mystery? 🙂
A couple of thoughts, instead of the annual a/c recharge, why not find the leak and fix it? Second, you had gotten some basic maintenance (of a high mileage vehicle) out of the way in terms of the tires, brakes, plugs, and halfshafts, and the engine itself is pretty reliable. An argument could be made that a $2500 investment was not a bad idea as you’d likely get significant years out of it, in addition to the vehicle being the devil you know, as opposed to the new used car that you don’t. I will admit though, that as a former tech, I tend to lean heavily to the fix what you’ve got camp, as I can do it myself, and the labor is not looked at as a cost, but rather something I enjoy.
I tend to follow your way of thinking. However, on these vans, I understood that the evaporators behind/under the dash would commonly corrode (I think it was due to being set in a bed of foam, which kept the bottom moist all the time), leading to teeny little refrigerant leaks. The cab-forward design made replacement a major surgery, and with the van’s age and miles a can of R-134 in the spring was a good substitute solution.
I would have been very open to spending the $2500 on a transmission. Unfortunately (for this purpose, anyway), I do not live alone. 🙂
My friend gifted me his 1996 with the 3.8 and 16 inch wheels, after his missus declared it to be rubbish due to the A/C failing. I haven’t put the mileage on that you did, but really enjoy the driving characteristics. The low end torque resembles the old V8 rear wheel drive cars (waftability!), and it gets about the same mileage as those ’80’s cruisers. I’ve had some issues related to age, such as brake lines, and the speedo winked out, which seems to be a common Chrysler issue. I had everything serviced, including the tranny, but did notice that it was used to tow something in a previous life, so maybe it is a question of time and luck.
It is good to see one still on the road and appreciated.
Ah, Minivan Love, the love that dareth not speaketh its name; welcome Brother, you are one of the enlightened, come here and let me anoint you with dust of Goldfish cracker and Juice of box. Please enjoy the following sermon from the third row of pews, er, seats…
Actually, as you realized the trick (and it IS a trick, or learned skill, or perhaps just rare talent) is to find a minivan that has either been owned by someone without little kids or someone with the time, patience and/or deep pockets to fastidiously keep it clean, de-crumbed and de- juice-splattered. If they do that the mechanicals will be taken care of too. I’ll never understand why any minivan was ever sold without black carpeting or better yet, just vinyl sheet. Newer vans seem to get the light, the one I reviewed last had dark carpet and was 100% covered with “winter mats” from front to back – a 1/4″ layer of rubber stops much of the damage. Normal minivans from seemingly normal people with regular kids tend to become more disgusting that whatever might lurk at the bottom of the ball pit at a Chuck E.Cheese by the 100k mile mark, never mind 200k.
Those wheels are excellent, one of the better wheel designs ever on a van, and one of my favorite MoPar designs of the modern era on the cars they graced as well.
It IS surprising to see the amount of forgiveness bestowed on Chrysler for the minivan transmission, yours lasted for far longer than could be expected but that doesn’t seem to be the norm at all, and you still bought it after being well informed. I’m with you in that the 5th generation vans (the boxy ones) may have worked just fine but the shift logic or gearing was completely wrong and validates that there are no elevation differences greater than 1000 vertical feet within hundreds of miles of Auburn Hills. And somehow they, unlike every other manufacturer from around the world, never thought to test their products on I-70 from Denver and Eisenhower tunnel. Simply miserable.
The newer Pacificas and I suppose now Voyagers as well are very nice, I thoroughly enjoyed the albeit loaded one I reviewed, I subsequently was able to rent one (actually two, we swapped steeds midtrip due to a minor personal issue) and both of those with some miles on them exhibited a transmission characteristic wherein at speed you (as the driver) could feel the transmission “locking up”, or more likely disengaging something once a certain highway speed and throttle position was achieved. Nothing severe, but over the 2000 mile roundtrip it was there on both of them and not something I’ve felt in other vehicles. Passengers could not feel it, so perhaps my butt is more finely calibrated, who knows.
Anyway, nice van, and while I was well aware you dabbled in used machinery I didn’t realize it was SO used from a mileage perspective on multiple occasions. Who got the better end of the deal, you at about $3500 (or $4k with the AC issues, spark plugs, and other small stuff?) for 18 months or the original owner over 11 years, sale price $1800 versus purchase price of what, $29k sticker minus discounts) plus maintenance/tires/etc for 11 years and 178k miles…hard to tell. In hindsight maybe the $2500 tranny and assorted other stuff to get another 75k out of it may have made a very good deal a great one? – without of course knowing that going in!
both of those with some miles on them exhibited a transmission characteristic wherein at speed you (as the driver) could feel the transmission “locking up”, or more likely disengaging something once a certain highway speed and throttle position was achieved
Yes, the torque converter locks up, based on throttle position. One can see that with a little drop of rpm on the tach. As to “feeling it”, perhaps the lock-up clutch was getting a bit rough or bad, or maybe you’re more sensitive than average. Are you saying it felt as if something was wrong when it did that?
I could feel it and both rental vehicles were in the 20-30k mileage range as I recall. I know that I can usually see it in the RPM gauge if watching it on other cars, this was the first where it was actually “feel”-able in a modern car, it was a mechanical impact that was noticeable through I think my foot on the pedal (but not to anyone else in the van). This would have been the 9-speed in the case of these Pacificas. I think if I had been test-driving it for purchase it would have given me pause though. Both did it, so either “they all do it” or it maybe it’s something that gets worse over time. The new Pacifica I had reviewed was a plug-in hybrid which had a CVT instead so nothing new to compare it to for me.
Oh right; the 9 speed. It’s top gear (9) is extremely high (low numerical). I wonder if you were feeling it shift from 9 to 8? I have no experience with them. But given the vans greater aerodynamic drag, I wouldn’t be surprised it’s a bit challenged by maintaining 9th gear. As you know, 8th and 9th are not even attainable in the bigger Promaster; maybe 8th on a downgrade.
No, it wasn’t a downshift. It is likely what you said. It would slot into the top gear at highway speed with consistent throttle (so after accelerating and steadying or after an uphill event was completed), stabilize for a few seconds and then the lockup or non-lockup, whichever it was. Extremely consistent. It wasn’t bad at all otherwise, quite smooth, and as I recall the fuel economy was decent for a fully loaded V6 van with five passengers and all their stuff for a long winter weekend with 2000 miles of driving towards the SouthWest from here and back.
I agree on those wheels – one of the most attractive modern wheel designs ever.
I agree that used minivans owned by typical carpool mommies are usually like automotive superfund sites, and to be avoided. I think that after big vans went into their fatal swoon, a decent number of midwestern retirees bought minivans. The good ones (like these) were great for travel, reasonably economical, and had room for grandkids and friends. Nice ones are out there for someone with patience.
As to the more modern transmissions, one of my unpleasant experiences was a rental during our trip to Colorado. At least on the way back down Mt. Evans there was not a lot of shifting. 🙂
On those high mile vehicles, I did not set out looking for one, but when I found a couple that had been so well cared for and drove so well, I couldn’t resist them. This one had 4 owners I know of. Someone bought it new and traded it after 2 or 3 years, then the guy who ran it from late model to old age, then me who gave it a new lease on life and finally my staffer who took it the rest of the distance. Who got the best deal is hard to say.
This is almost exactly how it went with my ’91 Spirit, down to the amount quoted. Grumble. I kinda wish I’d spent it.
Those headlamps must’ve been completely opaque if they cleaned up to this what we see in the pics. At least they were the marginally adequate quads rather than the abjectly hazardous, utterly useless single-bulb items on the Plymouth-Dodge vans.
Yes those headlights were bad when I bought it. I tried a rag with some polishing compound but that did nothing to them. I decided that those lights (in that condition) were not so much for seeing the road ahead of you as allowing others to see that you were there.
I’ve had essentially zero experience with this generation, even as a passenger. But I’ve certainly heard a lot of praise for them, you included.
Some Promasters used in expediting service have run up to 500k miles on the 62TE automatic, the 6-speed evolution of the 42TE. But the more typical life expectancy is 200-400k miles,so it’s come a ways in its durability.
I have understood that these transmissions’ reliability woes have been pretty well licked. The old ones were smooth but problematic, and the new ones are long lived but with a shift quality I have described as crunchy. Life is a tradeoff.
You should drive one of these if you ever get the chance, though I am sure that opportunities are dwindling even with your healing rains.
My wife and I had an 03 Town and Country until 2 years ago. It was a very versatile vehicle, able to move sofas and a ton of stuff on college move in day. It survived a transmission electronic part failure that left it in “limp” mode starting in 2nd gear and staying there, that fix cost $900 . Then one day the mechanic showed me how the rear axle was rusted through, the sides were like tissue paper. Repair cost 2,000 if they could find one. That was the parting of the ways. I really liked it, it could haul a ton of stuff and it was very comfortable, the car was just the right height, not too high like an suv, not too low like a car. It was replaced by a Honda Pilot, a little too high, and not as roomy, but it’s in much better shape and that’s a good thing.
I was amazed that mine was as minimally rusted as it was.
Amazing how quickly that happens once one own a minivan. Same thing happened with us after we bought our Odyssey in 2010. Hard to imagine living without one after a while.
But during our minivan searches, we’ve never seriously considered Chrysler products because my wife’s family had a bad experience with a Dodge pickup in about 1970, and they still hold a grudge against the Chrysler Corp. Midwestern families’ grudges die hard.
And I certainly know the feeling of having an older (i.e., monetarily valueless) car with a transmission problem. Our Thunderbird has survived two such episodes in recent years. A few years ago we experienced a transmission failure, and after getting a diagnosis of “completely shot transmission” from one shop, we took it to another that replaced an accumulator spring for $300 and that fixed the problem. More recently, we experienced yet another problem, and the shop diagnosed it as a faulty PCM – the replacement of which was much cheaper than I would have expected. But if either of these problems had needed a new ($3,000+) transmission, I think the T-bird would have migrated out of our lives.
That seems to be a far more common issue than generally acknowledged that likely relegates far more cars with low market value to the junkyard than anything else – a problem that is misdiagnosed at best or fraudulently diagnosed at worst where someone doesn’t take or have the time to get more than one opinion from a source they might consider trustworthy. Very few “normal” people have the knowledge to be able to refute a diagnosis or fix a transmission themselves and often don’t have the time and werewithal to deal with it themselves, gotta get to work tomorrow, and there’s only money for one car in the driveway. So the T-bird goes to the junkyard and a Kia Forte or whatever gets leased, probably for the better in that scenario.
Transmission failure has become a real barrier to the kind of used car bottom fishing I was traditionally pretty good at. I got the Torqueflite in my Scamp rebuilt in 1981 for about $350. I just got out the inflation calculator. What I paid for the 4 speed THM-4R on the Oldsmobile in 1997 was double the adjusted cost of the older unit. What I was quoted on the 4 speed minivan transmission was triple that adjusted cost. I don’t even want to think about what a transmission built in the last decade would cost to rebuild. The adjusted cost of that Torqueflite rebuild in 2023 would be $1146. I could justify that kind of expense to keep an old car on the road. The $4k from a failed modern transmission is a lot harder to justify.
Great COAL, thank you. I drove a 99 Plymouth Voyager of this generation, it seemed identical to the T&C LX, except for a shorter wheel base.
I agree, it was an excellent vehicle and so versatile. Sometimes I’m at a loss when so many suburban families reject a minivan and choose a CUV or SUV which are inferior for family duties in almost every way. More, expensive, less roomy, and less efficient.
By comparison the Mopar minivans are almost perfection, if one cares more for utility over fashion.
I was born in 1984, so I was a learning to drive when these were everywhere. One friend’s mom had an Island Teal Grand Caravan we used regularly for road trips in high school and college. I’d assume it had either the 3.3 or 3.8, because it was well equipped with alloys and painted bumpers. We got it up to 100 mph in deserted western Kansas, and got two speeding tickets on that trip – one coming and one going – but the tickets were at non-felony speeds.
I had a 2001 version of this, although mine was an AWD version with a slightly higher trim level interior.
As far as I remember it was a pretty solid vehicle that served us through peak kid years. Which meant that it got thoroughly beat upon and pretty much every little bit of the interior’s life was used up and sucked out of it by the time we traded it in 2006 for the vehicle that replaced it…and which I still own. I don’t recall having any concerns with the transmission (which admittedly may have been an entirely different beast given the awd drive train on the one I had). But ironically, the reason why I wound up with a Chrysler minivan was that it was an emergency purchase to get us out of a 1998 Volvo V70 AWD which was asking for its second transmission replacement. As you say about the “finance committee” over there, the one over here nixed any further interaction with that Volvo and the switch was made to the Chrysler over a long weekend. I’d say that the reason why we wound up with the Chrysler was that these were the most common vehicles in our cohort (2001 being just before everyone else switched to Honda vans). Having ridden in a gazillion of them by 2001, the decision to buy one was kind of like buying bread. “OK, just get it”. It was about that informed.
And during the ensuing 5 years, no one over here really had time to think at all about the finer points of a car. As long as car seats fit into it, it ran reliably, and got one to and from the dozens of places a day that suburban toddlers/elementary school children needed to go, it was golden. That’s what the Chrysler did…and it did it well.
I’m sure that ours had over 100K on it when we got rid of it…all I know is that the folks at the Toyota dealer at trade in time looked like they wanted to don hazmat suits before getting in to inspect it. I always considered this kind of a shame as I felt that the van still had plenty of mechanical life in it…it was just too foul to take anywhere beyond pick up line.
I once talked to a car detailer who charged a premium for minivans. At the time I thought that it was just because they were so much bigger inside and out than most cars. Now I think it is for just the kind of things you mentioned about yours.
I think yours would have been the first year of the Gen4 vans. If you had it in the northeast, you probably got out at about the right time before the rust became an issue. But there was a lot to like in the early vans of that generation too.
I think it is fair to call this peak minivan. Chrysler had done a great deal with its K platform derived minivans, but when the 1996-2000 version was introduced on the new NS platform, there was almost an audible murmur among the demographic buying these. An attorney in my office called it the first minivan he could see himself driving and felt that it met the standards needed to call it a luxury vehicle.
They were everywhere in their Plymouth, Dodge and Chrysler variations. My sister had a Plymouth, I bought a ’99 T&C LX. Very similar to yours, but mine was a dark Forest Green Pearl Coat with the tan Camel interior. I thought it all quite handsome. British racing green with tan on a minivan? Yeah!
Mine came from the factory with plastic wheel covers, which I found unsuitable (and unusual at this time on a well equipped Chrysler), so I had the dealer swap on the same wheels yours had – they were good looking.
I had the 3.8, it was neither a dog, nor a thoroughbred, but I found it just right. The 200 watt 10 speaker Infinity system was standard on the LX with an AM/FM head unit. I had the upgraded head with the cassette, CD and equalizer.
My children were very small in this era, and the utility of the van was astounding, not the least because it replaced a 1989 Thunderbird coupe! It did yeoman’s work moving us across town to a new home.
I’m glad you got to drive this generation, the following generation brought Stow & Go seating, alleviating the need to move the HEAVY seats for cargo van duty, and the deep well in the back that the rear bench folded into brought added utility. But, the bloom was sort of off the minivan as a category and innovation was beginning to cause compromise – the Stow & Go seats weren’t as comfortable as the seats that had to be lifted out.
While I bought mine new, and it had replaced a vehicle we’d had for eight years, our relationship was also short. 9/11 happened, we are a flying family and were caught up in it. And, I worked in a prominent downtown building, a few doors away from a building that Timothy McVeigh had cased out looking for a target.
It as a stressful period, and we flew to see my in-laws at Christmas, passing guards with machine guns at the airport garage, getting hollered at by TSA as an errant lunch fork was in my carry on. We landed to discover Richard Reid was trying to blow up another flight. Did I mention it was a stressful period?
Our rental was a 2001 Dodge Durango, and I was in love. Having deep big car roots, here was a stylish, popular V-8 powered rear drive vehicle that had the large-and-in-charge feel that I still love in a vehicle. Just had a ball spending time in it with my family.
Perhaps it was a YOLO or FOMO moment, but I set out to trade the van on a new Durango when we returned.
Interesting that you mention this as one of my strongest memories of my T&C is that I was driving it to work for some reason (it wasn’t my usual vehicle) on 9/11/01 and I can remember 100% vividly how beautiful the weather was that day, with a remarkably clear and blue sky at about 9am that morning here in MA. I was thinking that precisely when I heard the first news story from NYC that morning. I remember exactly the intersection I was in, and how I was stopped at the light. And then went on into the office, turned on the TV, started making phone calls to relatives and friends, and how pretty much everything was different from that moment.
But every day that I go through that intersection to this day (I’ve moved my office, but I still drive through that particular spot regularly), I recall sitting there at the red light, in the T&C, and hearing the news.
I was driving the white Oldsmobile 98 on 9/11. I too remember the beautiful weather. My most vivid car-memory of the day was that I was getting low on gas and figured I had better fill up on my way home at the end of the work day. The gas station was mobbed because everyone was panicked (OK, I was a little panicked too).
I completely understand the love for this generation of the Chrysler minivan. As mentioned above, it was a beautifully slick design that truly led the market, especially being the first to have sliding doors on both sides. It was efficient, comfortable and competent, a combination of qualities lacking in many cars both then and today.
It was 1998 and my wife had just stopped working full-time to stay home with our kids, who were starting pre-school. Our 1991 Explorer could only accommodate three children in booster seats and we thought we would need more space for carpool duty. We wanted one of these Chrysler products, badly, but while shopping for a replacement for the Explorer, we looked at a new Windstar, which rode somewhat more smoothly and was better finished inside than the competing Dodge and Plymouth models. Deals were to be had on Windstars, which only had a sliding door on the passenger side, so that’s the route we went.
As it turns out, my wife grew to hate the Ford, which she felt was clumsy and dumpy, and and we ended up not needing the extra seating. I was given the ultimatum to get rid of it less than three years later (before any of the fabled Windstar reliability issues surfaced). I still can’t help but wonder whether a Chrysler minivan would have changed the outcome of that story…
I had a Windstar near-miss too. When I was looking for a late model Club Wagon, I saw one of the first Windstars at a dealer, still with a bunch of plastic inside. I remember thinking that Ford had finally designed a winner, and wondering if maybe I should think about a new Windstar instead of a late model Club Wagon. Bullet dodged. I borrowed a friend’s Windstar once (it may have been when my Chrysler was indisposed) and had the same reaction as your wife.
I also remember the 4th door coming out. I remember that it was an option at first so there were still some 3 door Mopar vans early in that series, but that 4th door turned out to be one of those forehead-slap moments and nobody was ever satisfied with a 3 door minivan again.
We had a 1998 Grand Caravan Sport that i need to write a COAL on. It really was an exceptional vehicle. I expected the space and utility, but the driving dynamics, build quality and longevity were surprises. That one went away in a divorce, but I still remember that it gave good service regardless of what we threw at it.
I’m glad that yours was also a pleasant surprise (until it wasn’t). It replaced a Mercury Villager minivan and, like you, I understood why the Mopar minivans were such strong sellers. It just worked right.
I think my van may have been the biggest ah-ha! moment I ever had when first driving a vehicle I had never spent any time around. Most of the time I had a good idea how something would drive just knowing who made it, but this one was not at all what I had been expecting.
I bought two Mopar minivans, a new base model Caravan in 1990, which was replaced by a used ’97 Chrysler Town and Country LXI with 70,000 miles in 2001 or ’02. The first van had the Mitsubishi V6 and three speed transmission, which lasted until 150K. It was replaced and continued on past 180K when I sold it to my BIL. The paint had exploded off the top and the valve guides let out a puff of smoke on take off, but it was still running fine at sale. The cloth interior was immaculate when I sold it. I still see old Caravans with impossibly nice interiors in the wrecking yards. I had felt somewhat forced to buy the ’90 due to family needs, but when I located my ’97 it was perfect in my eyes. It was a light purple with gray leather seats, Captain’s chairs in the second row, rear a/c, and the high zoot Infiniti sound system with the joy stick fader control. it had the 3.8 with the four speed trans. I knew that it would be trouble eventually, and it was. My brother had one upped me by buying a Grand Caravan with the four speed shortly after I showed him my ’90. He had to replace his tranny a year or so after it was out of warranty.
I will admit that I loved this van, loved the way it looked, loved driving and using it, and like the previous Dodge we took a lot of family roadtrips with it. We referred to the LXI as the “Luxury LIner.”
Unfortunately after having the trans rebuilt, it had to go back to the shop for numerous problems. The shop stood behind it, but the continuing problems sucked all the fun out of the ownership. After the trans failed for the second time, I parked it and sold it for 900 bucks to a younger guy with kids, that was willing to replace it with a wrecking yard trans. After all, his labor was free and he still had lots of energy and motivation at his age!
Whether to fix or sell is a tough choice. The Mustang that I bought new in ’07 hit 165k when it’s transmission died. We had given it to our Daughter, she still liked the car, so 3,500 dollars later, (ours) it was back on the road. The car was probably worth less than five grand, but what else are you going to buy with that 3,500 bucks? My old ’96 Mustang is at 218K, and currently is running great. It hasn’t needed any major work to the engine and trans, but other things have totaled over 4,000 dollars over the thirteen years of ownership. I didn’t want to have to rebuild the motor and trans so I went and bought a low mileage 2006 model to supplement it. I had considered selling the ’96, but I will be putting so few miles on it as a hobby car, that it probably won’t hit 250K in this decade, or maybe even in my lifetime! I just might pop to have it painted this year, that will be at least a grand.
My truck, also bought new in ’07, currently has 166K and is still running great, (furiously knocking on wood !!!). If the tranny has problems, I plan to fix it, but it now only gets driven around 250 miles a month. I agree with the idea of evaluating the value of a repair cost against the potential for future vehicle use.
Maybe it’s smarter to lease? You’ll always have a car payment, but at least you won’t have an old car in the driveway.
The word in my area was that just about any shop could rebuild a transmission out of one of these, whereas bad Honda van transmissions required a factory reman unit unless someone wanted to recreate your experience. It is too bad that the rebuild didn’t work for you.
I am starting to wonder if you are not right when it comes to starting to do the perpetual lease. I must be getting old.
I agree with the majority here that these were good vans. They drove well and were head and shoulders above the Ford and GM offerings. I had lots of wheel time behind these, as I was in the car business at when these were new on the ground. It seems that this van served you well for the short period you owned it. I think you probably made the right call to cut your losses. Sure it may have made it to about 300K but what did it cost to get there? In my experience, most people gloss over or forget vehicle repairs, especially if they like a car.
A ’99 Voyager was my grandfather’s last car. He and my grandmother had a ’94 Pontiac Grand Prix. In the late 90s my Grandfather health was failing and he needed a wheelchair. So a van was in order. They had been loyal customers of one of the most senior salesman at the Chev-Olds-Cadillac dealer I was working at (they had bought the aforementioned GP through him), so naturally they went back to him to find their next car.
The salesman tried to sell my Grandfather a one year old Chev Venture van, and he arrogantly assumed that my grandparents were loyal customers and wouldn’t price shop. So he priced it quite high. My Grandfather was shrewed and knew that his “friend” the salesman was taking advantage of him. So, he priced out a brand new short wheelbase Plymouth for less money than the used Venture. He came to me and asked my opinion since I worked there and I told him to go for the Mopar – which he did. The new van served my Grandparents well until he passed a few years later. Unfortunately shortly after he died, the van was destroyed. One of my Grandmother’s elderly neighbors in her senior’s complex had a Ford Bronco II which caught on fire as she was driving and she didn’t notice! One of the building maintenance people got her attention before she went up in smoke with the Bronco. She hurriedly parked it next to my Grandmother’s van. Once it became fully engulfed, the Plymouth was also destroyed, as was the car on the other side. My Grandmother was devastated to lose the van, as she loved driving it, and it was the last vehicle she bought with my Grandfather. In the time she owned it, it served her and the family well. I assisted her with her vehicle maintenance, and I don’t recall it having any mechanical issues.
That was a shame about your grandmother’s van. It is also a shame that there was never really another really good minivan built by a US manufacturer (with the possible exception of the Astro, though it was a different kind of animal). After I bought this Chrysler, I used to feel a kind of pity for the people I saw driving around in Ventures and Windstars.
Interesting comparison with “our” Voyagers which in Austria were mostly ordered with the MB CRD diesel and a 5 speed manual box and – absent rust – managed to get to ripe old ages, mileage-wise. The auto box was I believe a standard fitment on our gasoline-engined models; typically however those were bought by people who used them less and hence some survived.
My saying about Chrysler minivans is that you should never be surprised when they need a new transmission, because they will all need a new transmission the moment they leave the factory, it’s just a question of when.
Your solution to the busted transmission problem was the best I’ve ever seen, usually this would result in a junked minivan but you managed to keep the vehicle on the road and provide someone else with reasonably priced transportation. Well done!
Thank you sir (bows, doffs hat).
My parents never owned a minivan, but being a child in the 90’s I had plenty of chums in school whos parents owned these – and they really were great people movers…I liked the styling, interior layout, and the cool Infinity sound system. I’m sure the parents were sold on them for the same reasons you were.
Having just plunked down 3k on a transmission rebuild, I know the thought process – my wife and I debated what to do, but ultimately we decided “better devil you know” and pulled the trigger. Of course, it stung a bit more since this is the same car that required 5k for a rebuilt engine….and given the mileage and condition (a bit rusty around the edges)…it’s only worth 5k (1994 Cadillac Brougham).
If it were purely logical decisions, I don’t think we would have any of our classic cars…but our bank account would be in much better health! Thanks for the great story JP!
These might be peak Magic Wagon. These were handsome, had high-quality and luxurious interiors; much nicer than the Gen 4 minivans. Our friends had both, and were suprised at the difference in quality; they preferred their ’97.
The Gen 5 minivans went further into cheapness with the Lego-brick interiors.
In relative terms, these were the nicest minivans Chrysler ever made IMO.
Back in 2007, I spent summer in lake Tahoe area as foreign student participating at work and travel program. Soon got wheels, 92 Plymouth Grand caravan with +180k miles, purchase from original owner. The gentleman was Japan origin and were making a very good maintenance for the vehicle, selling it only because he got new generation. Its 3,3V6 runs strong, taking me all over the west cost. I ended up selling it with close to 200k miles in San Francisco, for 1400 USD just few days before going back to Europe. I made extra 200 USD over what I paid for it, minus the minimal service costs 🙂 during summer I travelled with my girlfriend and 4 other girls to Yosemite and coast area. For the big road trip, my sister with her now husband, joined us travelling all over between Yellowstone, San Diego and San Francisco. What a good times. Few years later we made a similar trip, starting at Seattle. Using rented Chrysler Town and Country, going to Yosemite again and returning it back in San Francisco, for rental fee just 500 USD what a deal. I have minivans in blood now, using Toyota Sienna and my BIL Honda Odyssey, even back in Europe. Its practical part can not be beaten.
In 2021 my Olds Silhouette developed terminal transmission issues, so I set out to find a 5th gen Chrysler (or Dodge) minivan. I did find one that there were no tell-tale signs of heavy duty family use. Just some “old-driver” scratches on the passenger side.
It’s a 2010 Town & Country LX, but the LX was the stripper, so no power sliding doors, no power hatch, cloth interior, etc. But it does have rear a/c and alloy wheels, which is a treat. It also has the 3.8L pushrod V6 (I actively searched for that motor) and the 62TE transmission. The one downside to all of that size and weight is worse fuel mileage than I expected.
My T&C drives well, even for a 13 year old vehicle. Like you mentioned about your T&C, everything feels right and drives really well for a vehicle with 170K miles on Michigan roads. It’s a great big comfy vehicular Swiss Army Knife on wheels. Sorry yours came to such an ignominious end, but most often the finance committee wins…