There are two schools of thought when it comes to transmission maintenance: A) Change the fluid and filter exactly to the manufacturer’s recommendation, or B) Don’t touch a thing except to add fluid.
With our 1998 Dodge Grand Caravan ES, I fell squarely into the second camp.
I’ve written about our string of Chrysler minivans several times (links at end)… we lost the first ’98 Caravan to an inattentive driver who pulled out in front of my wife and kids on a 55mph State highway (mine were all fine, the other lady spent some time in hospital). The pictured ’98 Grand Caravan ES was its replacement and is the subject of this post. It had about 95,000 miles on it when we purchased it around 2004.
Upon reaching 200,000 miles, the GC was passed down to Son Number One, and was replaced with a year-old ’06 Grand Caravan SXT which survived about 15 months before being totaled by a direct lightning strike. A used ’05 Town & Country Touring was its successor, which recently went to Son Number Two when we purchased our current Chrysler minivan, a year-old ’12 Volkswagen Routan SEL.
Son never hesitated to take the van on long trips – he was back and forth to Charleston, SC from our home in the Middle West numerous times, and made several trips out West as well. When the electronic dash started to fritz out regularly while he was staying in Charleston for several months, he googled a bit and the tore out the whole dash and resoldered the pins on the main circuit board (cracked cold solder joints – a common problem on 10+ year old GC/T&Cs). Problem fixed.
The van started giving numerous signs that the end was near its last year or so. We had to disconnect the rear wiper circuit because it took on a mind of its own, completely disconnected from whatever setting the driver had selected. Door windows would work, or not. When I drove it, I could tell the transmission was shifting hard sometimes. Then the first false alarm came. Son called one evening having started a trip up to our farm, saying the van had died and nothing electrical was working.
A “mechanic” happened by, who took them into town where they bought a new battery. He advised them it would run the car long enough for Son and Wife to make it to our house (five hours distant at that point) – they made it two hours before being sidelined on a below-freezing Sunday night many miles from even a small town, necessitating a six hour round trip Search and Rescue mission.
It wasn’t long after that age simply caught up with the van. I had predicted that the transmission would be what finally killed it, and sure enough, that was the Cause of Death. The 3.3L engine was still running great, if a little smokey, but this fine morning as they pulled out, the transmission simply laid down and gave up. Son called and asked my advice, to which I replied “strip any good parts off it and call the scrap yard.” They kept the rear seats (newlyweds – free furniture!), as well as the nearly-new battery and alternator (both of which he sold quickly). After the tow charge, they cleared about $350.
So if you look at our Total Cost of Ownership, we paid about $6,500 and put around 184,000 miles on the van, and really, had very minor issues (mostly maintenance items) to deal with over the nearly ten years we drove it. And from the day we bought the van to the day it died, we never did anything to the transmission other than occasionally add fluid.
Would the transmission have lasted longer had we followed the manufacturer’s recommendations? Maybe, but I’d say we did pretty good just leaving well enough alone, and on the whole, I’d consider this vehicle to be one of the best we’ve owned to date.
So long, old friend!
You can read more about our experiences with Chrysler minivans at the following links:
Curbside Capsule: The Gen-three Grand Caravan – “Peak Minivan?”
Road Trip Finale: 2005 Chrysler Town & Country – Our Road Tripmobile
Curbside Outtake: Voyager Generations – The Sequel
Curbside Capsule: 2012 VW Routan SEL – The Orphan That Caravaned From Town to Country
This should’ve been called “Neglect: How To Make The Ultradrive Last.” I’m of the change fluid frequently and often frame of mind, but once you miss the couple cycles of that schedule, it’s probably best to jsut leave it alone.
I’m with Perry on this. Secondhand gearbox on my mercedes started slipping out of gear on every trip out. New oil and filter put paid to that little problem instantly.
So…what will its replacement be?
They are still contemplating… I suggested another Dodge GC! It will likely be quite used, given their newlywed budget.
Are they trying for a baby, or trying to avoid at the moment?
‘Cause nothing’ll bring the stork like going from a minivan to something tiny/sporty/2-door.
Baby, actually – they want a large family. Maybe they should get a used school bus!
Good thing you planned ahead for grandparent duty with the Routan! My partner had a 1989 Grand Caravan that he took off his aunt’s hands with 200000 miles on it in 2003. It was on its original Ultradrive transmission. It had the trailer towing package, which included an heavy duty radiator and a transmission fluid cooler. I think that is what kept it going….
Nicely done Ed! Our 07 is at about 100,000 miles and the shift quality is getting ragged. I’m on the Fluid & Filter every 60,000 miles plan so we’ll see how that pans out.
278k miles is the longest I’ve heard a Caravan transmission lasting. I figure every Caravan needed a transmission the day it was built, it’s just a question of when it gets it.
As long as the ATF fluid isn’t a strange color or smelling of toaster burnt bagels, as long as the tranny is up/down shifting ok, I just top off the fluid level (if/when needed) and “Leave It Be.”
Congratulations. Chrysler must have made some improvements since 1992. Our ’92 Grand Caravan got its fourth(!) transmission at 88k miles. That one was finally a keeper; it was still going when we sold it with some 170k on the odometer. I saw it around for a while longer.
Were they new or “refurbished” transmissions? I find that aftermarket parts, especially those made or rebuilt in China tend to be very much inferior to OEM parts.
From the Dodge dealer, under warranty. Which means they were probably re-mans; I’m not sure. The original failed after about 55-60k; #2 failed on the drive home from the dealer(!); #3 never shifted quite right, and crapped out at 88k. #4 was a keeper. The dealer said it was an improved version. I got them to pay for most of that last one too, given the track record. I think I had to chip in $300.
They did improve them greatly but offhand I can’t remember when. by the 2000’s they seemed to be as good as any other vans out there, and of course better than the notorious Hondas. Unfortunately the advent of flush services using the wrong fluid seems to have helped keep that bad reputation going.
A buddy of mine also had a ’92 lemon of a Grand Caravan that went through…six transmissions! I believe they were all warranty covered, which is the only reason I can imagine seeing a car through all that trouble. Transmissions were definitely not a strong point for this generation of Caravan.
My mom had a ’94 that also went through 4 or 5 transmissions in the warranty period.
Transmissions have never been their strong point, I’m not sure what is their strong point?
Ed, you may be a little bias here. Both engines and transmissions have been a Chrysler strongpoint. I admit that the 904 lock-up trans in 1977-78 and the 604 in 1989 to whenever, had their share of problems. I was the tranny guy from 1964 until I left the dealerships in 1988 and I saw very few failures compared to other makes.
What were often their downfall were the bodies!
+1, Hemi A. Chrysler’s QC has been checkered at times when it came to things like trim and wiring but as far as hardware goes….when Ma Mopar gets it right, she absolutely OWNS.
The early minivan trannys were known to be problematic when the switch from vaccum controls to electronic started up.
Ed, youre partially right: the 3.3 family of V6 engines are pretty damn durable….but only in the car/minivan lines. The 3.8 is a real turd in the JK Wranglers. The torque curve is all wrong for an offroad focused full frame 4×4 for one thing. And for another, durability is pretty relative when you consider the intended usage. The Dynasties and New Yorkers were broughammy sedans with a demographic similar to Buick. Shuttling the kiddies to soccer practice or a cross country roadtrip in a fully loaded grand caravan is a bit more of a strain but still nothing on the order of Jeep duty. If Granny blows the motor driving to church, well someones doing something VERY wrong.
Good point!
The 3.3L (and derivative 3.8L) engine ranks right up with the /6 as far as its reputation of longevity and durability.
As mentioned, the 3.3 and revised transmissions are actually strong points, but also at the time the driving dynamics, comfort, features, and overall value couldn’t be beat by anyone.
Even today Stow and Go and low price are major stong points versus the competition. They remain excellent values in their segment while remaining competitive in other aspects. And they continue to outsell all others by a wide margin because of it.
The 604, Ultra-Drive or as it was renamed 41TE, began life in 1989 and had many growing pains along the way. Upgrades were made and as years went by the transmission quality steadily improved.
As for oil change and filter replacements, as a 52+ year Chrysler Mechanic (yes we were mechanics not technicians) my opinion is that changing the oil hardly matters. The transmission is supported only by clutch packs, no bands so unless there is a major internal seal problem, the clutches will last the same amount of time whether you change the oil or not. The filter is adequate for the entire life of the transmission. It is only the feelings of the owners that may be hurt if they do not service the transmission, so do as you feel necessary.
I think the thing that helped add to the “if the trans is working, don’t change the fluid” conventional wisdom was precisely this transaxle. Specifically, people would unwittingly put the wrong fluid in (using Dexron III instead of the proper ATF+4) and start having problems shortly thereafter.
In nearly 50 years of driving I have never once performed any maintenance on any automatic transmission, other than adding fluid if required. In that time I have never once had any kind of transmission failure; I have had to replace seals a few times but I don’t consider that to be a transmission problem. It might just be the luck of the draw but the transmissions involved included GM, Ford, Chrysler and Toyota products. Most of these in the past 20-25 years have been new or lightly used cars but even BITD, when I was the 5th owner of some beater, I never experienced transmission troubles.
I always leave transmissions alone and have never had one fail. when I was at dealerships, a lot would go shortly after a fluid change. my two cents….
I always figure that if the fluid looks discolored/brownish, it should be changed. Our 2005 Odyssey will discolor the fluid in about 40K while it took 100K for this to even begin in my Xb. However I’m not touching the fluid in my 73 Peugeot 504, ZF3HP22, hasn’t been touched in years although with a small leak it gets gradually replenished over long periods of time. It still shifts beautifully.
For at least the first two generations the Trannies on the Grand versions were rubbish and not recommended by Consumer Reports. That is why my folks picked up a 95 Voyager with no power options and a 3 Speed TorqueFlite brand new that had been on the lot for a year. That Tranny died at 100K and the 2nd Tranny was still good at 175K when I totaled the Voyager. My folks are not the most vehicle savvy so the fact both Trannies lasted 70K says something. Most 1st-3rd generation Chrysler Minivans I see around Portland are the non-Grand variety and I tend to see more Grands in the junkyard, but the highest mileage I have seen is 230K miles. While the 3rd generation Chrysler Minivans may have been the best their faulty dashboard wiring, lack of rust proof coating in the rear upper strut towers, and slightly worst crash test than the 2nd gens leaves me pondering.
I currently own a 2003 Caravan SE who’s previous owner(s) were obviously vehicle inept and I sometimes have the urge to slap them. My mechanic had the Tranny rebuilt when it died at 79-80K after he bought it at auction and before he sold it to my folks; lucky for him he got a partial refund from the auction. I plan on replacing the Tranny Fluid and Filter every 20K miles since there is no point in taking chances.
Vehicle seats do make good furniture since my current house has the rear bench from a 2008 F-250 which is quite comfy and the 3 person bench from an 05 Caravan which has two areas sculpted out for butts which makes it not quite as good a sofa as the F-250’s bench.
I have made several bucket seats into chairs by taking an old chair with roller base,removing the seat portion, attaching the base to a piece of MDF and screwing the car seat on. Makes a great desk chair.
I am a tranny fluid changer. I’ve only ever had one tranny die, but I’m pretty sure that was because the car got flooded and there must have been some residual water in there.
Ah, my favorite kind of story – one that begets a new round of car shopping! Nothing makes me happier. Sorry to hear of your loss, but it had a (very) good run, I’d say your family got their money’s worth and more. Very excited to hear what is next, but unwilling to bet against it being a VW or Chrysler…
Why do you like Chryslers?
We took a chance with the first ’98 Caravan (my first Chrysler product ever), and despite having two totaled out from under us, have had such good service out of them, we keep coming back to the well.
If you’ve read my posts and comments for longer than a week or two, you’ll also know I’m a long-time VW owner – and our ’12 Routan is the most reliable VW I’ve ever owned… (ba-dum!)
I hope I am not cursing myself but I bought my PT Cruiser new in 2004. I had the trans fluid changed about 30,000 miles since my belief (and I welcome comments on this) is that the initial break in period will generate a higher level of particulate matter. By this logic I have always changed oil in new cars before 1,000 miles and I can tell you on some vehicles it appears to be thick, metallic paint (I got this from “How to keep your Volkswagen alive: or Poor Richard’s Rabbit book, being a manual of step by step procedures for the complet idiot.”)
I had it changed at around 80, then again at 130,000. I am now north of 150,000 and while I know that the Neons that the Cruiser is based on had auto transmission issues mine has so far been problem free.
Whats under the hood of that PT? Standard 2.4L, Turbo ‘lite’, or turbo High Output?
This has everthing to do with it. I believe that only the HO turbos got the ‘slapstick’ feature but you have either a 40 or 41 TE. On a normally aspirated PT, its likely pretty solid, but on the turbo models…especially the HO, theye aren’t known for durability. When I had mine, I was on the PTCrew forum a lot and got to know some people. Even a beefed up TE would routinely grenade if there were any serious performance mods. And even if you have a turbo in bone stock form, don’t ever, ever EVER boost in o/d!
Luckily, I had the Getrag 288 on mine. Its the manual used over in Europe on the turbodiesel models and can take unreal amounts of punishment.
Just the standard 2.4L. From day one I have always driven this car like it was a rare and fragile classic, mainly to extend its life but also because it simply does not feel good to drive it hard. It’s just not a quickly accelerating car (however once you are at freeway speeds it will cruise all day at 85 to 90 and beyond without complaint).
Irony, or perhaps just a coincidence, that the last three digits on the odometer show ‘727’.
I caught that, too. At first I thought this was about a TorqueFlite…
Im not sure if a shift kit is available for these, but maybe its worth a look.
My ’05 Rumble Bee is the first and only slushbox equipped vehicle Ive ever owned, so auto’s are a bit of a mystery to me. The comfort and economy orientation of the shift programming is the Achilles heel of my rig, so Im looking into the TransGo shift kit and/or flashing the TCM. Ive always known that shift kits firm up the shifts, and make the tranny more responsive at the cost of a little comfort and economy. What i DIDNT know, is that they’ll also extend the life of the trans.
Apparently, in order to get buttery smooth shifts the clutch paks slip a lot more, and the trans will actually hold the lower gear for a bit simultaneously as the next is preparing to engage. Great, if you want posh comfort and you drive like a gramma, but this generates a lot of heat and wear and tear. The firmer, faster shifts may not be to everyones liking if you like pillowy smooth quiet, but its a lot easier on the guts of the trans. Personally, my driving style is more aggressive and performance oriented. I like to feel and hear as much of whats going on when Im driving as possible, so to hell with peace and quiet!
I know that a shift kit in a minivan is a bit weird but if it makes the thing hold together longer and that’s what youre really after, that might be the ticket. Oh and the kit for my 545RFE is ludicrous cheap: Under $100 for the full pack ‘big kit’ and its not that hard to install. The guys running V8 Grand Cherokees swear by it.
Automatic on my 81 Datsun truck was still working great after having the snot slapped out of it for over 325k. Pretty high bar and maybe why I drive a stick now after being massively disappointed in the automatics I have had since. I put some type of transmission medic in a can in it when fairly new and just checked the fluid level. Now I’m driving a Nissan CVT and while I am spooky it runs great (at only 37k).
I intend to continue to look for sticks on any trucks.
It will ease your mind to know that Nissan will warranty a CVT for 120,000 miles, or at least that’s what was in the brochures I looked at back in 2013. I still bought a standard as I prefer them and I’m easy on clutches.
I had heard that myself but they felt as though they proved their point so we bought a 75k mile warranty. We traded in a 2010 cube with a stick on a 2013 with a CVT so my wife could drive. She knows how (as good a driver as me) but knee went bad. Like them both but if it was only me I would still have the six speed stick. Haven’t lost but one clutch since I was a kid.
279K is a really, really good run, for any car. You got your money’s worth and then some out of that vehicle! I’ll also say that I think the Grand version of the 3rd gen Chrysler minivans is the best-styled one they ever did. Looked positively futuristic when it came out and still looks relatively fresh to my eyes.
I’m currently facing a bit of a trans dilemma in my ’97 Crown Vic–I’m seeing symptoms that I believe to be TC lock-up chatter, for which the most simple fix is a fluid drain/refill and filter replacement, but then I hear so many comments like “a lot would go shortly after a fluid change”. Decisions, decisions. I need to check the service records and see if the previous owners (e. g. my parents) ever had the fluid flushed. Tranny and TC were replaced in ’03 at 33K miles and it’s only got 104K now, so the miles aren’t that many but the years are long.
There is a shudder that the Ford AOD and AODE gets from the lockup TC. There is an additive called shudder fix (a liquid in a tube.). The forums say that this stuff Peps up tired fluid and that a fluid change is better. The additive worked on my 93.
Stay tuned next week for another transmission failure story… Ford, this time. (c:
Just about the only automatic transmission failures our family had were Ford products. I say just about because my brother’s Honda Civic GX (CNG) had an early CVT that was trouble, but I dont consider it to be a traditional automatic.
The later iterations of the 604 weren’t bad at all, at least as good as anything coming from the domestic competition. The real killer of the later ones, post 1992, was overloading. This is especially true in a hilly place like British Columbia. If you want to hot rod a packed to the rafters Caravan over the Coquhialla Highway the heat will definitely damage it. It may take a few years to notice, but the clutches on these things can’t take a lot of abuse.
Ed, if you got that mileage out of a Caravan, be happy and move on. It wouldn’t make any difference had you changed the ATF. The car was obviously driven in a safe and responsible manner, so it lasted a long time. That means much more than fluid changes.
The ‘only add’ transmission fluid rule, is silly and expensive. Change the bloody fluid and filter – the tranny will last much longer!
Got told the Transmission fluid in a BMW 3-series (a GM 4 speed Auto) “It’s ‘LIFETIME fluid!”. Such nonsense! GM says 60k miles or 5 years flush tranny & change filter. So I changed my own fluid and against the Dealer Service Manager’s recommendation and brought the used fluid into the dealership after..
“Can you deal with this” I asked, DSM said, “sure we take engine oil”…
“that’s not engine oil, its ‘lifetime transmission’ fluid, looks dead to me… supposed to be pink, izintit??”
The transmission now shifts smoothly and no longer clunks into gears. It’s been 18 months since I did the tranny service and its still working. So no worries there! You do need to torque the tranny bolts on though!
I will only point out that in our case, it was *less* expensive to just top off the fluids when needed. YMMV.
We had the lifetime fluid GM transmission in our 1994 325is. New transmission at 30,000 miles. New transmission at 60,000 miles. Sold at 91,000 miles. I guess we should have checked the glossary in the owner’s manual for the BMW/GM definition of lifetime.
For the life of the transmission, not the car. See you don’t change the fluid, just the trans.
I went 140K on a 4T60-E in my Grand Prix GTP with one fluid and filter change during the time I owned it, not bad considering the 4T60’s had a rep for not lasting with the blown 3800, it still shifted well when I got rid of her.
Perhaps it was my Grandfather who stressed oiling/changing fluids as a way to make anything last longer. He must be to blame for my ‘over’ maintaining my vehicles and other machines.
Engine oil changes, I’m a fanatic. The GC got changed every 2-3000 miles…
You certainty beat my record. I only got a bit over 200 k out of mine. My 99 T&C was shifting like a champ when one of the shafts broke inside. I had the fluid changed when I bought it (at 178k). I think you did it right.
My highest mileage vehicle was a 1993 Legacy GT Wagon that had 300k on it when it was rear ended in a snow storm. I bought it with 20k on it and never changed the trans fluid.
I bought a 1992 S10 (4.3L V6) from a friend( who told me that “the tranny is dead , it just doesn’t know it yet) for a song. I had that truck until 2003 when I sold it to my younger brother. That transmission finally died last year in his ownership at about 260k mileage, Not bad for a 22 year old truck.
However, I have a newer Insight (with a CVT). It is widely recommended from vehicle specific forums, and from an interview from the lead engineer for the car that the CVT fluid should be be changed every 20k. The procedure is dead simple (in fact Honda had an access area in the belly pan to assist the procedure. remove 4 screws, drain fluid about 3 to 4 quarts, clean the magnetic plug, replace with CVT specific fluid..that is it). So, I have been doing this religiously.
How good are the transmissions in a 2003 Chevy Malibu?
If it’s the 4T65E, I’m not a fan. My wife’s 2000 Century would start whining and slamming into gears after about 30 minutes driving (or longer than a test drive). I bought it with 100K, however. We sold it at 145,000 and it hadn’t fallen apart yet. Her current 2004 Impala has the same trans, and it started slamming into gears at 85K. When the internal clearances start getting loose, the transmission electronics basically jack of the oil pressure to compensate, and it hits gears full bore.
I actually installed a shift kit to speed up the shifts and avoid this, and it works, but it still occasionally feels like it’s in neutral at stops and slams back into first once you start going. Obviously, the shift kit wouldn’t fix that. This car’s got 136,000 on it now, and I do know I won’t ever buy anything GM front-drive with a 4-speed automatic again.
I change the oil in it every 30-40,000 miles.
Thank you for the info. My Malibu has the 4T40-E transmission and I haven’t noticed any hard shifts at 140,000 miles. I bought it used and don’t know if the fluid has been changed. It has had the intake manifold gasket and head gasket replaced with the updated parts about 3 months ago. It runs good but needs new struts.
Thanks again!
I was told by a tech that had started working with automatics in the early 1940’s, there is varnish and other crud that is deposited in the trans. Oil changes every 30K miles never lets the crud get really thick, the detergents in the new oil will clean it. But let it go to 60-90K miles, and then change the oil; the crud is acting as part of the sealing between the apply pistons and the bore they ride in. The new oil cleans it out, and now you have a leaky piston, doesn’t get full pressure and you get slipping and the trans fails. Other problem is the plastic lip seals get hard as potato chips and don’t seal, heat is what does that.
They do install better ATF these days, part of why the change requirement has been extended.
Almost 280k out of original engine and trans, can’t complain about that. When you get a good one, it pays to keep it till she’s done. Still original manual trans and engine, changed the gear oil once at 150k. Hope I don’t hex the Jetta. One clutch. (knock on wood).
Herbie (my 2000 New Beetle) was still on the original clutch when I sold him at 218,000 miles.
That’s great. Rear main started to leak around 190k and it was fine, except it would slip in 5th gear only. It was soaked in oil. I replaced it with a GLI clutch figuring since it was designed for more power, it may last longer.
I have never owned a Chrysler minivan, but I will tell you that the F4EAT automatic in the 2002 Ford ZX2 that my kids drive LOVES fluid changes. I have been changing it every 20,000 miles and it shifts like a new car, for awhile. It’s kind of like putting 4 new tires on a tired old car, it just feels good. That little turd has 179,000 on the original transmission and the kids haven’t killed it yet. It is the only car I’ve had that shifted differently with fresh fluid in it…
My brother has a 2000 LHS which I arranged for him to buy in 03 with 20000 miles on it. It now has 218000 on it with nothing other than normal maintenance to the motor. I think it still has the original fluid in the transmission. His wifes brother is a mechanic and when he bought it he told him they are nice cars but don’t plan to keep over 85000 miles. They sent him a picture of it clicking over 200000. Last fall he was going to sell it when he got a new Ram Pickup to replace his old Pickup which had died. When he discovered the LHS would probably only bring about 1500-2000 he decided just to keep it. It gets better MPG’s than the Ram or their Enclave and will help them last a little longer. When something major does finally die I imagine he will just roll the LHS across the scales.
I have always been a fairly evangelical believer of performing drain and fills every 30k for any vehicle I intend to keep.
Why? Because in exchange for about $100 worth of tranny fluid, your vehicle will still shift like new at 240k. I should note that you should either use an excavator on top, or one bolt underneath.
Most drain and fills take out about 3 quarts on average. Yes, we all know there is plenty of variation.
One more thing. If it’s a sealed transmission, don’t buy it.
@ Steve Lang: I notice the word flush is not to be found in your comment. I think that is where I would draw the line. Personally know just enough trannies that cratered after flushing to think it is beyond coincidence.
Exactly. It’s always best to not disturb those metallic particles.
Which tend to sit in the sludge layer at the bottom of the pan and never get back into circulation, unless disturbed. The magnets that I have found inside my GM transmission pans help keep them in one place as well