(first posted 6/27/2011) Bernie Madoff’s first bogus trade. Richard Nixon’s first fib. Charlie Parker’s first hit of heroin. What do they have in common with this perfectly harmless-looking Pontiac Ventura II? That first little giving in to temptation has a nasty way of turning into a big deadly habit, like GM’s badge engineering. All bad habits have a beginning, but the evidence typically is lost in the haze of history. Not GM’s. Before you sits the proof; the badge-engineering progenitor; the automotive equivalent of finding Humphrey Bogart’s first Lucky Strike butt laying at the curb.
I can’t tell you exactly the behind-the-scenes machinations that led to giving Pontiac a “grille engineered” version of Chevy’s popular Nova in the spring of 1971. But it cracked open a door that was eventually ripped off its hinges in the following years. Every GM division then rushed through it and jumped into that bottomless cesspool without a second thought. Desperate for smaller cars, Oldsmobile, Buick and even Cadillac soon joined in with Pontiac. The attack of the Chevrolet body snatchers was on.
Presumably, Pontiac had misgivings at how large its Tempest and LeMans had grown from their 1961 compact origins. And by 1970, the continued growth in the small car sector was undeniable. Chevy was getting ready to launch its sub-compact Vega. Pontiac felt left out, and wanted back in. And they had a solution in hand and ready to roll, north of the border: the Acadian.
GM long had a pattern of doing things a little differently in Canada, especially with Pontiac. Canadian Ponchos were hybrids, of a different type. They used Chevrolet chassis, engines and transmission, but Pontiac exteriors. And bore different names too, like Laurentian and Parisienne. GM Canada was the prelude to the badge-engineering main act to come.
At the beginning of the sixties, Pontiac of Canada expected to either get the new 1961 Tempest or a version of the new Corvair as its compact. Instead, it got a grille-engineered version of the 1962 Chevy II, called Acadian (above). Strictly speaking, it wasn’t a Pontiac, but a separate low-end brand for Canadian Pontiac-Buick dealers to sell.
I remember well first stumbling across one as a kid in Iowa. I had earned an honorary degree in Autology by dint of my car-spotting abilities. But this one threw me; a mildly customized Chevy II? I eventually figured out the limitations of my US-centric viewpoint, and that Canadians must know what they were doing when it came to Chevy IIs and healthcare.
The Acadian was still going in 1971, so all Pontiac had to do was divert a stream of them southwards – or at least a few truckloads of grilles. I don’t know where the Ventura II was actually assembled. But it was all Chevy, all the time, right down to the engines. Which marks this as the beginning of another bad habit: the first GM (NA) car with all of its engines from another division: Chevy’s 250 six and 307/350 V8s were on offer in the abbreviated first year. By 1972, the Pontiac 350 V8 was also in the mix. And a couple of years later, the vaunted letters GTO were gracing this Nova clone.
I can’t but wonder if Pontiac was wishing it still had its OHC six to drop into this Ventura, especially with that Sprint package. With a four speed stick in the lighter Nova X-Body, the 230 hp Sprint six would finally have found the home it never quite had. It was killed off just two years earlier.
Enough of what might have been. But I’m not going talk about this Noventura per se, because I have several genuine Novas in the can for future Curbside Classics. It’s not like there’s any real difference. But I am going to save some equal time for the other Nova-based clones: Apollo, Omega, Phoenix and Skylark; the whole family of dirty little habits.
Whenever I see a Ventura of this vintage, I can’t help but think of my favorite car chase scene from the 70’s (before CGI)…….The Seven-Ups.
I’m not a big Jaws fan, but Roy Scheider was great in this. Just got it from netflix the other day.
finally saw him as Roy Fosse… wow
While the visuals from The Seven-Ups are great, the reused sound effects from Bullitt (the same guy produced both movies) ruins it. I mean, c’mon, both a Pontiac Grand Ville and Ventura being shifted and double-clutched? Give me a break.
It’s a shame because if the producer had stuck with the actual sounds of the cars, being able to hear the automatics kick-down along with the sounds of the air intakes would have been plenty (and a whole lot more authentic).
I don’t know if the latter movie had the same effect on Grand Ville sales as the former did for Dodge Chargers but, if not, it should have. Although the Ventura was cool (even with the fake sound effects), I’d take that big, black, 4-door hardtop Poncho.
I don’t disagree………….
I’d rather have the blue Econoline on the right.
I agree about the sound effects but what a great chase scene anyway. And the same actor driving the big poncho drove the Charger in Bullitt: the great Bill Hickman. He also acted in The French Connection. He was the detective who hated Popeye.
Bill Hickman was in the car following James Dean when Dean was killed.
Missed those kids and almost nicked my 67 Lesabre !
My thoughts exactly! Wonderful film.
And the final scene of that car chase…..
Wasn’t the Mansfield bar supposed to prevent this?
I remember when these came out. I think I built a model kit of one. I had always assumed that these cars at least had Pontiac engines. Boy was I wrong. I also remember that they did not sell very well, at least in 1971-72.
Some did…I recall seeing one in high school (20 years ago) with either a 265 or a 301 Poncho engine.
Having owned a 1972 Nova already discussed previously – and will, undoubtedly again at the approriate time – these were very attractive cars – in coupe versions. In sedan versions, not so much.
My Nova didn’t have the bright window frame coverings and I almost bought them from Chevy, but at the time, I didn’t want to spend the money because I had most of my funds tied up in my 1957 project.
I always thought that the 68-72 Nova sedan was not bad looking. It was starting with the 74 restyle that the sedans became kind of awkward looking.
Does anyone remember how these sold? I seem to remember that the Plymouth Valiant owned this category, but maybe it was the Dart and Valiant combined. I also thought that the Maverick may have outsold the Nova, but it is hard to believe any Chevrolet selling in last place (okay, except for Hornet) in those years. These Novas (and even the Ventura IIs) were particularly attractive as coupes.
I have no idea of sales numbers, but these were all over the place, as were the Dart/Valiant combo. Maverick? Not so much, but quite numerous.
I agree with the 1974 re-do. A buddy had one in that burnt-orange color that was awkward-looking with therailroad track bumpers and squared-off rear quarter window, but I didn’t complain ’cause it still rolled down (but not all the way, as was customary in sedans)!
If I recall correctly, Chrysler had over 30 percent of the total compact market in the early 1970s – or over twice its share of the total market.
The key was that BOTH the Valiant/Duster and Dart were very popular. At GM and Ford the Chevrolet and Ford compacts sold well, but the badge-engineered clones at the other divisions were considerably less popular.
Buick, Oldsmobile, Pontiac and Mercury still relied on their big cars and intermediates for the lion’s share of sales, while the Dart was the best-selling Dodge. Which suggest that Chrysler had its own issues with cross-brand competition and brand dilution, a problem that would become increasingly apparent as the decade progressed.
That was probably because the Dart had some obvious distinctions, like a longer wheelbase, and different roofline, as well as the different nose and tail. It wasn’t just a rebadged Valiant. GM and Ford’s luxed-up compacts were obvious copies of the cheaper models. Where was the value in that?
In ’71, Chevy moved about 195,000 Novas, respectable, but down from ’69 and ’70.
Plymouth moved 276,000 ’71 Valiants and Dusters.
Dodge moved 248,000 ’71 Darts and Demons.
Chevy’s aging sedan only bodies were not what this segment wanted. Mopar’s wiliness to put a halfway sporty hardtop body on their compact platform was like reinventing the ’65 Mustang. The Duster coupe alone almost outsold the entire ’71 Nova line.
For what it is worth, Pontiac moved 48,000 Ventura IIs. Not a bad little number, but it is not impossible that it took more volume from Chevy than anything else.
In 71 Ford moved 251,047 Mavericks and 65,842 Comets.
’71 Nova production was actually down quite a bit from 1970. But it bounced right back up again in ’72, leaving ’71 as an anomaly.
I’m not sure what happened in ’71. The introduction of the Vega would be a logical explanation, but sales bounced back in ’72 even with the Vega on the same showroom floor (and without a corresponding drop in Vega sales), and would then remain at that higher level for the next several years.
The 71 model year was a strike year for GM, and the other companies had plenty of fresh smaller cars.
The coupe reminds me more of a Duster, which sold like hotcakes, of course.
Actually, the redesign was for 1975 where the Nova and its clones got all new bodies, I had both a ’78 and a ’74 and the ’74 was the same as the 73 as it was largely the same as the 68-72 bodies but with different grills, which was very similar to the ’74.
My ’74 was the base 4 door sedan with the 250 inline 6 and 3spd auto that was your basic Gov’t general fleet special that my Dad bought for my sister and her first hubby in ’79 to replaced a rusted out 72 Vega and they sold it to me in 1983 as my second car.
I bought the 78 2 door coupe in 85, which was a bit optioned out based coupe with rally wheels, sport mirrors,AM/8-Track and AC but had the base vinyl upholstery and split back bench and column automatic and the 305 V8.
68-72 was one body, the best looking in my opinion, 73-74 was another, with a hatchback available. then 75-79 was another. the last restyle was done with the intention of making them look more European, aping the Grenada.
Mavericks got a up kick in sales in 74. In fact a few were manufactured in Wayne MI because Kansas City assembly was maxed out.
Yes, the base Nova’s were very plain looking.
I too was surprised but in reverse when I found that Acadians, Laurentians etc were Canada only cars.
There’s that OHC six obsession again, Paul you’d better write up a CC on that motor, unless there was already one and I missed it?
It’s inevitable. I have a copy of the C&D where Brock Yates tests an XK-E that had its engine replaced with one. Can you imagine that?
I’ve got a R&T review of a Firebird Sprint. 1967 I think. In it they mention the XKE w/pontiac motor.
I dunno, I think the Firebird Sprint is kinda weak. 0-60 takes more than 10seconds, top speed only 114MPH. Test weight was 3597lbs. Overall brake rating is “poor” according to R&T and the shifter is criticized also.
Underpowered and overweight with poor fuel economy (15mpg) and poor weight distribution for what it is (57% front 43% rear) This appears to me to be the smallest lightest car you could get the OHC six in, so all the others will have even worse performance.
One of the reasons Pontiac discontinued the OHC 6 was that it was too tall to fit under the hood of the newly designed 1970 1/2 Firebird. It never sold that well anyway as Pontiac was selling its image based on the largest most powerful V8s of the day. It was the brainchild of John DeLorean. DeLorean wanted to introduce it sooner but Bunkie Knudsen while still head of Pontiac would not approve it as he said it wouldn’t sell. Yes I remember hearing too that the Dart/Valiant combo had about 30% of compact market, more than twice Chrysler’s overall market share. They were top rated in the compact field by Consumer Reports. I would see Canadian Pontiacs in the Northeast and on Ohio freeways. My favorites were the 68 and 69 Beaumonts, They were Chevelles with Pontiac style grill and Tempest instrument panel, were actually a nice improvement over Chevelle.
Never heard that one about the ’70 Firebird hood being too low for the OHC 6, but the main reason it was dropped after ’69 was due to poor sales and the high cost of emission certification of a low-volume engine. The decision to drop the engine was likely made in mid-69 by Pontiac’s new general manager, F. James McDonald, who replaced DeLorean. It was also “Mickey Dee” who cancelled the Endura-style front nose planned for the ’70 Bonneville and brought out the low-line Tempest T-37 in mid-1970, followed by the Ventura II in mid-1971. The musclecar era was fading fast by early 1970 due to high insurance premiums and the spector of more stringent emission requirements that led GM to detune all engines to run on regular or unleaded fuels for ’71. And sales of compact cars such as Dart, Duster, Maverick, Hornet and Nova were pretty brisk in ’70 and soon followed by the smaller cars including Gremlin, Vega and Pinto. Pontiac’s most direct competitors outside GM, Dodge and Mercury, were selling lots of Darts and Comets and wanted a piece of the action in order to stay in third place in sales (they barely held on in ’70 – but lost in ’71 due to the 67-day GM strike in the fall of ’70 shortly after ’71 model production started). Since the Vega was obviously going to be a Chevy exclusive, they chose to request their own version of the Chevy Nova (which they already sold in Canada as the Acadian) which was approved and introduced in mid-1971 – would have been better for Pontiac to revive the Tempest name for this number (now that all intermediates were under the LeMans title including GTO and T-37). Soon, Olds and Buick would coming knocking on the door of the 14th Floor to request a version of the Nova – the loss of many sales by B-O-P dealers to Dusters and Darts from Chrysler-Plymouth and Dodge dealers was too much to bear for the loss of their “budget” prospects as even the cheapest Cutlass (F-85), LeMans (T-37), and Skylark (Special Deluxe) were much more expensive than the compacts and subcompacts, both domestic and foreign.
Chrysler’s abortive HyperPak /6 is evidence that in the ’60s, the market for high-performance sixes was simply too limited, a victim of the success of the small-block V8.
Maybe they should’ve sent the Pontiac six tooling to Australia where such were better appreciated.
Ford also thought about offering a RPO triple carb setup for the 144 Falcon ( that in Stroppes shop made 128 hp at 6000 rpm according to one source) but after the Hyper Pak Valiants came in 1-7 at Daytona in a televised race, that idea was dropped.
Coincidentally, I saw this little beast’s stablemate, a Chevy Nova, on I-10 between Mobile and New Orleans this weekend. I hadn’t seen one in a long time. It was a ’73-’74 two-door coupe, primer gray (surprised?) on the tail end of a car carrier hauling a load of late-model used cars (more surprised? I was a little).
I always see interesting stuff on this route. The pick of the litter this time was a ’62 Falcon two-door coupe, base model, no chrome, painted beautiful turquoise metallic. Did I have a camera? Sure, in the trunk!
Does this mean I was right? Or was I just 15% wrong? Even if some of the Canadian Pontiacs were really devent cars, this thing really is just a Nova with an ugly grille on it.
I actually have some Norwegian magazine (for Us car lovers) where there’s an ex-immigrant (originally Norwegian, left for the US before WW2, and returned in the 70’s after working a.o at Pontiac) who owns a 67 Firebird he helped build himself, and brought home to Norway, with the famed OHC 6 cylinder and a manual. Lovely car, and even if they weren’t very popular when new I guess there are quite a few serious sports car enthusiasts that would want one now.
Assembly Codes
L=Van Nuys, CA
W=Willow Run, MI
A few years into the model run, you’ll also find some T’s (North Tarrytown, NY).
Chev parts invaded every thing but GM NA jumped up and down whem GMH told the to shove their engines and built their own V8s using 6 cyl pistons to keep costs down and to stop importing expensive US made engines.The Arcadian has a EJ Holden grille
The grille and taillights on the Ventura II are actually specific to it, not shared with the Acadian. By ’71, the Acadian was using the Nova pieces with only the nameplates to differentiate them. The Acadian was dropped mid-’71 in Canada and replaced with the Ventura II.
is it for sale my phon nember is 6474650337
I appreciate that you wrote about the Canadian prelude to that Ventura. My dad was transferred from Pittsburgh to Niagara Falls, Canada at the end of 1968 and that began my education in Canadian variations of American models. The Old Car Manual Project carries brochures for many old Beaumonts/Acadians among others so you can see just how badge-engineered they were. At least the full-size cars were recognizably Pontiacs, although as you mentioned, they sat on a Chevrolet chassis and as such were shorter than their American counterparts.
In the fall of ’70, we moved back to the “lower 48″…just as many Canadian models of all makes were becoming more standardized with the American models. I believe the first Pontiac Tempest/LeMans appeared in the Great White North in 1970. There may have been GTOs prior, but no lesser models of Tempest. And there was indeed a hi-po Beaumont, dubbed “SD-396”.
Product development: If it’s good and cheap it won’t be fast, if it’s fast and good it won’t be cheap, it it’s fast and cheap it won’t be good. Choose two,you can’t have all three. Starting in the early 70’s with vehicles like the Ventura GM went down the fast and cheap route. The ventura was nothing more than a Nova with a mildly restyled front end and some different rear tail lights. The interiors were virtually identical. GM went on to add the Buick Apollo and the Old Omega to the NOVA line up; all following exactly the same plan. And the bean counters didn’t stop there-eventually the cookie-cutter, clone-car approach spread through GM’s entire line up.
Were there any genuine Pontiac engines ever offered in the Ventura? The Olds 260, Buick 350, and Chevy 305 V8’s were optional at one time or another during the model run and the Buick 231 V6 eventually replaced the Chevy 250 as the base engine.
After ’74, the only actual ‘Pontiac’ engine that was offered came, in the later Venturas – in about 1977, and after they dropped the “II” from the name – and that was the truly awful 301 Pontiac. I remember when they were new, in 1977, trying to lease one from the local Pontiac store. The 301’s had just come out and hadn’t yet gotten their reputation for genuine awfulness and not knowing any better, I wanted to order one with the 301 V8 and the also, at least technically available with it, four-speed stick. Fortunately for me, the dealer refused to order a 4-speed stick on “lease” car, figuring it would be too hard for them to sell it at the end of the lease, thus saving from the 301!
In the mid-’80’s I bought a really clean ’75 Ventura with the factory “Sprint” trim package that I bought for $250, because the the original 2-bbl-350 Buick V8 in it was blown-up. I ended up buying a low-mileage, but completely rotted and rusted-out ’69 Buick Skylark GS350 for 125 dollars, just to get the GS’s 4-bbl 350 engine out of it, to put into the Ventura. I ended up selling the Skylark’s tranny, console and floor shifter, plus the wheels, tires and rad from it for 250 dollars – and then still got 75.00 for the remains of the car ‘over the scales’ at a scrapyard! With the earlier-model 4bbl-GS350 installed, plus a homebuilt, true, dual exhaust and no catalytic converters, that car was a great daily driver and it flat out flew! All for a little wheeling and dealing, a bit of work and a total cash outlay of about about 50 dollars!
Don’t forget the “DUKE” also was available in the Ventura. 77-79 I believe. That’s a Pontiac production.
My mother owned a 74 with a Pontiac 350,auto,ps & pb nothing more,not even carpet. It was passed down to me after forbidding my purchase of a 72 Cutlass Supreme. In Detroit N.O.V.A. were everywhere and they only differed in hoods,header panels,grilles,tail lamps,uphostery, hubcaps,and division wheels & emblems. The main thing they had in common is an allergy to road salt.
I’ve always liked the Ventura variation on the X cars. From certain angles, the Pontiac versions have a resemblance to some Opel models from the same time period.
The version to have would be the 1974 GTO, which would be closer to the original GTO in size and spirit. But it was never very popular, I’m sure due to all of the external issues that were going on at the time.
I agree with you – it kind of resembled a customized Chevy – which it was. The Poncho version looked a bit sleeker, especially with the longer tail lights. I must say I also have an affinity for the Pontiac split grille – mostly done right!
Ha! I snagged one of these from a junkyard late last year. $900. Complete and running with the 250 / Powerglide combo.
Someday a big-block is going in and I’ll be hitting the track.
Good grief – a Powerglide in the 70s. Sigh. I am starting to sound like Zackman with those fixed rear windows.
Why does/did it matter to have 4 separate 350ci when they only needed one good one? I can believe that the others each had their own merits compared to the Chevy, but surely there was the opportunity for the sort of rationalisation we have recently seen with V6 engines across the D3?
“…does/did it matter to have 4 separate 350ci …?”
Before the 70’s, the divisional motors had differing cubic inch sizes. I am sure someone at GM asked that question in 1974, and then they started to kill off divisional engineering differences,
probably had to do with GMs rules about how big an engine a division could put in a platform. each division made their engine the largest that corporate allowed. hence all the different 350s, and the 454 and three 455s.
Yup, this is exactly right.
Add to this that prior to the Roger Smith reorganization in the ’80s, each division was a separate organization that was expected to operate as a “profit center.” That meant that if Oldsmobile wanted to use a Buick engine, for example, Olds had to buy it from Buick and Buick would apply a markup to maintain their P&L. As a result, sourcing an engine from another division was usually more expensive unless it was for such a low-volume product that it wasn’t worth the tooling costs to do it in-house.
I think they had separate engines because it had always been done that way. But in the past the displacements differed across divisions. My theory is that they started to use common displacements on the different engines to blur the distinctions, to make people think they actually were the same engines, to ease the transition to “corporate” engines.
The Pontiac 350 was offered from 72-74, but for 1975, due to emissions the Buick 350 would be the top motor. Pontiac dropped the GTO since they didn’t want a Buick motor in a Goat.
It seemed like a good idea at the time, since the Dodge Dart was selling well, and Ponitac dealers were losing sales as muscle car era was ending. So, they wanted a “Nova”, too, even though Chevy dealers didn’t want to share.
If a Pontiac compact RWD car with 400 ci V8 was offered at the height of ‘muscle mania’, 1968, it would be a ‘classic’ today. Just as the SS396 Novas, and Hi-po Dusters/Darts. So, they were a few years late with a compact GTO.
“after the energy crisis of 1973. Every GM division then rushed through it and jumped into that bottomless cesspool without a second thought. Desperate for smaller cars…”
Yes, BOP versions of the H bodies, subcompacts, were a reaction to Oil Crisis I. But not the RWD X’s. 1973 Olds Omega in fall 1972, and the 1973 Buick Apollo spring 1973. A full year to a few months before OPEC embargo.
Chevy fought to keep Nova, but BOP dealers wanted Chevy customers.
Given how distinct the Sunbird was from the Monza from day one, I suspect the H-body was meant for both Chevy and Pontiac in the design phase even if not from the outset of it. The early H-body Skyhawk and Starfire really look the part of rush jobs to keep the dealers happy, though.
So what is the difference between the 1977 Pontiac Ventura vs. 1977 1/2 Pontiac Phoenix? Other than the former being 3.8″ shorter 199.6″ for the Ventura vs. 203.4″ for the Phoenix, a newly redesigned longer front nose with new square headlights for the latter, the rear taillights different between the two cars and with front and rear bumper cushions on the left and right sides of the bumper and nameplate changes for both cars just like to a lesser extent 1977 Chevrolet Nova with the 1977 Chevrolet Concours and the 1975 Buick Apollo with the 1975 Buick Skylark, Nothing much really, the Phoenix was essentially a Ventura nothing more nothing less. With the exception of the Nova based RWD K-Bodied 1976-79 Cadillac Seville which was a heavily modified Nova, the 1977 1/2-79 Pontiac Phoenix was the largest the RWD X-Bodied Nova’s identical twin cousin had ever become almost pushing the size near the 1973-77 Chevrolet Chevelle Malibu 2 Door Colonnade Hardtop Coupe @ 205.7″ vs. Pontiac Phoenix both 2 & 4 Doors @ 203.4″ territory.
I don’t know, but I owned a copper colored 1977 Ventura 2 door. It had a 305 (I believe) with dual exhausts, or rather dual tailpipes coming out of the same muffler. It was in great cosmetic condition, with about 60,000 miles. It came with full metal wheel covers. I replaced them with the Pontiac 5 spoke ralley wheels of the time, with narrow whitewalls. It was as close as I ever got to owning a Rockford Files car. Right color, right wheels, wrong model. I should have kept it longer, it was a good car and didn’t do anything wrong. I could have put a better stereo in it (this was back in ’83, for some reason I liked car stereos back then)and a louder cat back exhaust. But I found a white ’79 Camaro Z28 that I just had to have, so there went the Ventura.
The Nova, through ’74, is highly collectible, and can go for some ridiculous prices. The same year Venturas are also very collectible, but not worth as much as a Nova. The Nova through ’74, Chevelle and Camaro through ’72 are high dollar cars in really good condition. I’ve even seen restorable junkers go for some pretty high prices. A mint ’72 Nova can sell for more than a mint ’65 Mustang.
For some reason, Chevys and Mopars of that era are more collectible than most Fords.
N.O.V.A.
N OVA
O MEGA
V ENTURA
A POLLO
I don’t know if that was planned.
I doubt it. GM had been doing badge engineering forever. Most chevys, Buicks, Oldsmobiles, and Pontiacs were thinly disguised versions of the same car. In the case of the Ventura, it didn’t bother me a bit. It was basically a Pontiac Nova, and IMO there are far too few Novas of that time period in existence. The Ventura helps increase that number. I wish GM had kept Pontiac and dropped Buick. Not just because I like them better, but I think Pontiac would have been, or at least could have been far more profitable than Buick.
But really there is no need for either a Buick or Pontiac (or Oldsmobile) in the US market. Chevrolet and Cadillac cover the market completely. All of the Buicks are found at Chevrolet, and even the XTS is mostly an Impala with perhaps a bit more trim.
I see Pontiac as having the ability to push the limits and come up with something Buick can’t do. Buick has a reputation as an old persons car. I’m old and have no desire for a new Buick. They are all totally bland to me. If Pontiac were still here, we might still have the Firebird, and the Solstice, and don’t forget the one off Fiero that was only sold as a Pontiac. Pontiac would also be perfectly positioned to offer a 2 door economy car, something like the Sunfire maybe. GM has a hole a mile wide in it’s lineup buy not offering a single 2 door model that anyone can afford. Both Pontiac and Cadillac are also capable of producing larger more conservative cars for those who want them.
When I go to the Buick site, I don’t see anything I want. I can see that being different if it were Pontiac.
As a Buick “enthusiast”, I’d like to take issue with you, but I really can’t.
My father loved the big Pontiacs in the day. There were high trim levels, and he loved the handling to boot.
The Pontiac Bonneville was supposed to compete with BMW (90s and 2000s versions). Yet, I think the Oldsmobile Aurora was a better fit for the idea. I think that a next-gen Aurora could have been a Bonneville easily. Modify the suspension a little, drop the Supercharged Series III 3800 in there, and give it an arrowhead!
I think GM flubbed with Buick over here. The 90s LeSabres felt solid- they were comfortable, safe, reliable, and luxurious. If they would have kept making Buicks that way, I think that they would have sold more.
Pontiac has one thing that Buick likely won’t: a large, loyal fanbase. That’s worth a lot!
It’s a shame that the Aurora dead-ended when Oldsmobile died. It was a great idea!
I always hear Buick got a pardon because of China’s love of them, yet since when does that mean GM couldn’t just put a Buick badge on a Pontiac and sell it there or vice versa? Vauxhall and Opel, even Holden in some cases were the same exact cars only separated in name by the boundaries they were sold in, why saddle America with Buicks we clearly don’t want?
Frankly, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, I think axing those brands was more of a PR move than anything else. The divisions were faintly diversified by the end and they did sell cars and the profits all went to the same place. There were much more serious things to be addressed during the reorganization than dumping a few superfluous brands, but we the public see that as a BIG CHANGE even though at best it means a few less emblems are being cast.
“I always hear Buick got a pardon because of China’s love of them”
I’ve never heard that and doubt it. In the 80s and 90s, Buick was the only American car brand with stellar consumer reports. Seems like Acura and Buick were at the top of the list, followed by all the Japanese brands. If China loved Buick cars, it was for the same reason Americans did and THAT was why Buick never got the axe.
In China, the Buick name always had a halo given that before WWII and Communism those were the prefered cars for the rich and famous, and when GM came back in the 90s it was decided to capitalize on that (a good decision it seems).
GM had been rebodying forever, that’s a big difference. The X cars overwhelmingly shared body stampings, interiors and engines across all the divisions which lead to their 1980s disaster. There still was quite a bit of diversity in the A B and C bodies by the time the Ventura Apollo and Omega showed up with their “distinct” fascias.
True, Ford and Chrysler were doing this all along, before and after, but neither of them were the behemoth GM was at the time, GM seemingly had the resources to do the diversification they were known for, but they didn’t, and that right there marks a major downward turning point for the whole operation.
I once read somewhere that it was planned.
But I feel the clones were enough to get some people who would never consider a Chevrolet to purchase the same thing under a more prestigious GM brand label. My dad, who thought Chevrolets were only for “poor people” (his words, not mine) signed for a Skylark and never gave it a thought as to what was really underneath that Buick nameplate.
Mr. Bill
I’d much prefer GM Canada over GM USA. Because it’s colder the further north you go, you need something that’ll withstand that kind of driving. Unfortunately, most of the cars built in the USA were built for smooth roads (since when are roads ever perfectly smooth?). Some of the worst roads are in Detroit, in Tacoma, Washington, Route 66, and many others.
Right! Given the winters in Detroit, you’d think (or at least I have thought) that American cars would just be better at winter! Frankly, there’s no appreciable difference in latitude between the US HQ of the big three and their Canadian subsidiaries (all just to the east in southern Ontario).
In the humble opinion of this Canadian, only two brands have ever proven themselves capable of a really good winter car: Saab, and Subaru. Maybe Volvo. The rest all manage to let the side down in some way.
Some years ago my parts supplier had this dark blue metallic 1972 Chevy Nova in his showroom. IIRC it had a 396. I liked its stance and “bulldog-attitude”. The car was perfect.
For some reason I see these Novas as an upscaled Opel Ascona A in coupe trim.
N = Nova
O = Omega
V = Ventura
A = Apollo ………Thats how I remember it.
It’s very fitting there is a Chevrolet Corsica in the background of the first pic. As GM did the same thing will the Corsica, creating the Canadian market Pontiac Tempest in 1987.
GM lore in the 30s was a multiplicity of models using a commonality of parts and if you understood their part numbering system its self explanetary.
I must be the only one who likes this car.I don’t remember seeing any Pontiac Venturas in the metal but the Acadian was sold in 60s Britain alongside Chevys,Pontiacs and Cheviacs.Quite a few were built in RHD.
I used to see plenty of Ventura IIs in the wild. I actually preferred their look to the Nova except for no “power bulge” hoods like on the big block Novas. When the GTO version with the Trans Am esque shaker scoop came out, I thought that was an abomination.
So did a lot of others,it was yet another debasement of a once great name.I go to a lot of car shows and I really don’t think I’ve seen a Ventura.In 1971 when these came out the only Pontiacs that interested me a 13 and half year old were the Firebird and GTO.
I have never seen one in a car show either, the Nova has that covered. Even though by the time the Ventura came out, the Nova was pretty much decontented as well. The Nova made it’s bones with the 68-70 performance models. Back in my hot rodder days, I would have liked to build a Ventura with a proper Pontiac Ram Air motor or an Apollo with a Wildcat Nailhead. In other words, the cars that GM should have built.
We in Israel had all of them (even if the Nova always sold better than the rest – I think the Oldsmobile Omega was second).
Hey, I just noticed that in the “7 Ups” car chase, at 1:36, blowing the horn, the car looks to be in park and a little further along, hitting the brake, the petal is trimmed in aluminum, definitely a high end trim, not a Noventura!
I wouldn’t consider the Pontiac Ventura II a deadly sin, if anything I wish the BOP Nova clones have came out sometime around 1968 instead of 1971 for the Pontiac and 1973 for the Oldsmobile and Buick, I agree the 1968-72 version of the Chevy Nova was far superior in both style and performance, I often keep forgetting that they have made the 1968-74 Nova’s and its clones as 4 door models when most of the cars I see are 2 doors.
Following along the corporate “images”, it seemed like the Pontiac Ventura II version had the strongest engine and tightest suspension, the Buick Apollo had the most “upscale” interior and quietest, smoothest ride, the Oldsmobile Omega had…nothing…going for it.
The 1971 Ventura II is mainly interesting in how differently the Y-body GM compacts came out a scant 10 years earlier. The 1961 Tempest, Skylark, and Cutlass were all vastly different from the Corvair upon which they were supposed to be based, and pretty much from each other, as well.
As was pointed out earlier in the Y-body Buick feature, there’s no question that by 1971, GM corporate was putting their foot down and this big, costly difference between models with the same underpinnings was no longer going to be tolerated, and the ’71 Ventura II was the first in a long succession of divisional cars that would steadily become more and more alike.
Was there a point where GM stopped the variation of frames for full-size cars that they were doing around 1960 when different brands had an x-frame or perimeter etc? Could that have been a second step after shared body shells?
This car has about as much differentiation as a British Leyland car.
I don’t think the trend to perimeter frames was a mandate so much as the engineering trend of the time. The GM X-frames had gotten a lot of criticism, and in any case, the U.S. industry got very enamored of perimeter frames in the early ’60s. I think it was to some extent a response to Chrysler going all-unitized (except for the Imperial through ’66); the GM perimeter frame cars were essentially semi-unitized, treating the frame as a deliberately flexible full-length subframe rather than the main structural member. The idea was that the frame would twist at the side rails to soak up NVH, which was not the strongest point of the early Chrysler unibodies.
I’m pretty sure the various perimeter frames used by the different GM divisions were not the same or even interchangeable and having a shared body shell didn’t necessarily mean the same frame type. The obvious example is the 1966–70 E-body; the Cadillac Eldorado and Oldsmobile Toronado were unit bodies and had a sort of Citroen-like “wheelbarrow” subframe, the Riviera had the old X-frame and was not technically unitized!
Under the Donner board the divisions were ordered to collaborate on chassis engineering starting with the A bodies in ’64 and the B and C bodies the following year.
Ok, so it took Pontiac 45 years to embrace “badge engineering” fully. Kudos to Lexus for “badge engineering” right out of the gate 1989 ES250 Camry Brougham. How about some critical negative articles about shameless imported badge engineering (acura,infiniti,audi etc)? Wishful thinking……
Trust me- an A6 is not a Passat. The engines and transmissions are the same, but the Audi is a much more refined package.
Of course, I don’t think that badge-engineering is such a bad thing. The Oldsmobile 88, the Buick LeSabre, and the Chevrolet Lumina were platform mates, but that doesn’t really make a difference to me.
I bought an Audi because of the quattro system. But, the interior is much nicer than a Passat, and the ride is much, much nicer.
GM gets a lot of grief for badge engineering, but at least there was a time when Chevy, Pontiac, etc. had considerable autonomy and there were substantive differences between equivalent models. Ford/Mercury and Plymouth/Dodge, on the other hand, were never anything but different brand names for the same car.
I’m not a GM apologist. My last GM car was a 1982 Oldsmobile Delta 88…..Royale…..Brougham….I think I’m done.
The competition offered some compelling (or less crappy) products, and I moved on. GM does have some stuff today that could cause my wallet to slooooowly creak open. But, I’ve moved from 10 year ownership goals to 20 years, I don’t show up in dealerships very often.
GM’s bankruptcy was primarily the product of an incoherent U.S. energy policy and the economy crapping out in other segments.
So, I’m pretty conservative in my accusations of GM deadly sins.
As noted, compacts became considerably more important after 1970. After 1973, (OPEC I) incredibly so.
Yes, GM hastily reacted and slightly differentiated the X body to give four divisions a compact ASAP.
But, GM’s efforts with ’70s X body differentiation easily exceeded the efforts at Chrysler and Ford. Valiant/Dart, Maverick/Comet, Granada/Monarch…….I rest my case.
And, GM finally gave this segment its due with the extensive differentiation of the 1980 X cars. GM did have a true deadly sin with the 1980 X over quality issues, but that is another story.
I suspect that in those days, it wasn’t easier to be a GM brand product planner for these reasons:
1. Brand Hierarchy:
Cadillac > Buick > Olds > Pontiac > Chev.
You can’t out equip or out trim an upper brand.
2. Performance Hierarchy:
Can’t be faster than Corvette etc.,
3. Cost limitation:
There wasn’t such thing as trying to sell a better product at a higher price, products were design to a cost point.
So if you were a product planner at say Pontiac, it must be a totally uninspiring job. You were not allowed to spec a Ventura with IRS and an alloy DOHC fuel injected job because you would not be allowed to sell a Pontiac at a higher price point than a Caddy nor were your ventura supposed to be faster or out corner a Corvette.
When I was in high school late 70’s X bodys were a cheap first car–mostly 6 cyl Novas. I really can’t remember one that didn’t have the rubber mat interior. The first time I seen a big block Nova was at a car show. I don’t understand the hate on the above poster has for the Pontiac 301–we had a 77 LeMans wagon for 10 years and never had a problem
The 301 is an often hated on motor by many gear heads. It had little aftermarket support and was a light duty smooth running engine with fuel economy and lower emissions as it’s main features. It was also not related to it’s 303-455 bothers save for the valve covers, timing chain and water pump I believe so was always considered an orphan along with it’s little peanut sized 4.3 265 bother. These engines did have rather weak bottom ends with the lightweight crankshaft that was missing counterweights and was externally balanced by the flywheel. If maintained properly I have owned and seen numerous examples live well past 150k miles with little going wrong other than the notorious nylon timing chain gears. If this was caught early on and replaced by an aftermarket steel set, these motors could live up to 200K but that was more an exception and not the rule. I had a 1980 Grand Prix SJ with the W code 301 4BBL V8 which was a W72 motor that had over 200K miles on the original engine. The 1980 301’s used turbo blocks and the W72 motor got the turbo engines roled filet crank so it’s not surprising this setup lasted so long.
Not much love here for these early ’70s X-bodies, I much preferred the ’75-’79 models. I think there was much more differentiation between the later models. I also preferred the squared off Euro styling.
Saw one at a show this past summer, a bit more interesting than the dime a dozen Novas.
I’m a Buick Apologist. The wife and I are looking at the Enclave as a family car. It looks better than the chevy, and GMC. People complain about them having redundant cars, but if all they offered was the Traverse and he Cadillac SRX we wouldn’t buy a GM.
It’s not just trim levels that sell cars it’s looks too. Ateupwithmotor has a great write up about the falcon and the Mustang. Same car, huge sales difference.
Paul, Here’s a Pontiac Ventura II model that you may not have heard of. sold only in California, it was the ’72 Ventura II SD sedan…… They only made about 250 of them…
Write up from Motor Trend at the time…..
http://pontiacventura.com/ventura_images/1972ventura_pics/72vMTrt-may72p1-2.jpg
http://pontiacventura.com/ventura_images/1972ventura_pics/72vMTrtmay72p3-4.jpg
I picked up an all original Canadian 1971 Pontiac Ventura with matching numbers 307 almost finished a complete frame off restoration about 1 year in .
Loving this car and I could be biased but I think there getting rarer and harder to find. My body shop is experienced and been around a long time and this is the first one they have ever worked on. Car will be mulsane blue with Pontiac sprint stripes from phonix graphics.
The real sin was the discontinuation of the remarkable car brands of Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Saturn, etc. Why is it better for GM to create new brands overnight like Alpheon or Ravon!? If not in the North-Americas than in the Russian Federation and/or on the Far-East old American car brands with heritage could possibly became commercial successes. An example: Daewoo doesn’t exists anymore in Korea. But the Daewoo brand still exists in the countries of Far-East/Russian Federation. Why is it better for them to call a Pontiac G3 Wave/Chevy Aveo/Daewoo Gentra as (GM) Ravon Nexia??? On the other hand Ventura is my all time Pontiac favourite!
The discontinuations weren’t sinful; by then, those divisions couldn’t hold themselves together and had to go. What was sinful was the poor decisions, half-baked models, and confused overlapping lineups that led to those 3 divisions (4 if you count Hummer) getting axed.
Since this was first written, I have developed a better understanding of Pontiac. As a relatively small Division, Pontiac was fairly easy for good management to turn into a success. Pontiac had three of them in a row, with Knudsen, Estes and Delorean, each of whom had an instinct for what would sell.
In 1969, Delorean was transferred to take charge of Chevrolet. He was replaced by F. James McDonald. Instead of coming up through Pontiac’s engineering ranks, he came up through GM’s foundries. He was sort of a vanilla manufacturing guy who could be more easily controlled by GM’s infamous 14th floor than were his predecessors.
The transition from Delorean to McDonald is exemplified in this car.
The truck driver in the end of the chase scene in The Seven-Ups looks like H.B. Halicki from Gone in 60 seconds.
I remember a TV ad (or maybe it was radio, it was a long time ago) that included this spiel: “Ventura’s an ECONOMY CAR! It’s a PRESTIGE CAR! Ventura’s an ECONOMY CAR…..with PRESTIGE.” Uh huh. right. As if driving this economobile to the Country Club would put you in the same class as folks who had valets parking Caddys, Lincolns, Imperials, or Mercedes.
To me, a 1949-54 Pontiac is a Chevy with “Silver Streaks”, or a badge/grille/trim job. But, they had their own engines at least. And, GM did a good job of marketing, that some buyers would refuse another GM brand or think “Chevys are beneath me”, etc.
And Pontiac also had the distinction of having the last Straight 8 GM was producing.
These Pontiacs were also on a longer wheelbase (I believe), offered an eight cylinder engine and GM’s top-shelf Hydra Matic transmission instead of Chevy’s Powerglide. There were substantial differences between the two.
The GM Deadly Sin series seems to fall into two categories. There’s the ‘tactical’ Deadly Sins which are isolated into doing damage within a specific division (Vega, Citation, Cimarron, Olds Diesel, Cadillac V8-6-4, Aztek). Then there’s the ‘strategic’ Deadly Sins which are wider in their scope, affecting many, if not all, the GM divisions (’86 Riviera, ’71 Ventura).
It’s these strategic Deadly Sins that I’m wondering if there’s some room for debate. On the surface, yeah, ‘badge engineering’ seemed like a very bad idea for GM in the long term but I’m wondering if it was an inevitability given how the market was changing due to forces beyond GM’s control (like government regulations, fuel supplies, and viable imported competition), sort of like how the death of the independents was a foregone conclusion, even if they’d made all the right moves.
So, too, wouldn’t the personal luxury coupe, along with Oldsmobile and Pontiac, have succumbed eventually, even if GM hadn’t made what, in hindsight, seem like massive marketing errors. I’m just not sure that the autonomous GM divisions, with their own, division-specific drivetrains and sheetmetal, could have actually survived as the world changed around them.
To put it in a different way, consider how Pontiac dealt with the Corvair project. Instead of building the much cheaper Corvair-clone Polaris concept, Delorean and company were, instead, allowed to come up with the half-of-a-389 Trophy four-cylinder engine with its ‘rope-drive’ rear transaxle. It was a much more expensive proposition that didn’t sell well and only lasted three years. All things considered, wouldn’t it have been smarter to have put the Polaris into production, instead? Unlike the division-specific Tempest, an admittedly badge-engineered Polaris would have spread out the Corvair’s development cost and, with the added sales, conceivably kept the Corvair alive for much longer.
Badge engineering was not endemic to Detroit. Back when the u.k had a vibrant, mostly successful motor industry-you’d have to go back to the 60s for that- you could have an Austin,Morris, wolseley,Riley, M.G or Vanden Plas badged version of -save some bits of trim here, an extra carburettor there-the exact same car. Utter madness, all those names were owned by B.M.C. They were furiously competing with themselves.
Rootes had been doing the same for many years, retrimming Hillman as a Sunbeam Singer Commer and in obscure places a small Humber.
It’s ‘grille’. There’s no place to cook a steak on these cars.
Unusual side trim.
Factory option side stripes follow the body’s waistline, and someone added a rubber bump strip up the middle of the stripe.
The front clip on these is a huge improvement in appearance over the Chevy.
Well, if Dodge can rebadge a Valiant to a Dart, why not Pontiac? With small car, no one cared, it was when the bigger cars started looking alike that got brand loyalists more upset.
These were not “lemons” like the Citation, Vega or FWD 80’s cars. So, not really deadly, IMO. Just business and meeting demand for small cars at the time.
In June 1975, Popular Mechanics ran a head-to-head-to-head-to-head PM Owner’s Report comparison of the then new for ’75 Nova, Ventura, Omega and Apollo.
Neighbor bought a “brand new, 1973 Ventura ((orange/black top, inside)) upon his return from “Nam”.
He was among the final group to be drafted.
I’ve forgotten if it was a “HB” or a “coupe”.
It was a “350”.
In 1975, my brother bought a “used, 74 Ventura”.(coupe)
Low miles, medium blue, stripper; did have white vinyl buckets, auto on column, radio, 250 cid “6”. The previous owner had applied some sporty side stripes. They ran between the wheel wells, were black. Really looked good on the car.
Was a good runner, buzzy on the highway . ((that 6 under the hood))
He kept it till 1978 I think.
Obviously GM looked no further than the once great, United Kingdom, and how their badge engineering worked out to foretell the future. Sorry, I’m a GM hater, I just can’t resist.
Anyway, in a historic oddity, for a time I lived in an apartment complex with neighbors who first had a Pontiac Ventura, the Nova one, then moved on to an 80s Nova, which was really a Corolla. So… from a Nova that wasn’t called one, to a Corolla that wasn’t a Nova but was called one. Huh? Apartments. We weren’t on good terms, I never inquired.
The Holden Torana predates this car by several years, and is exactly the same thing Vauxhall Vivas GM UK small car sold in Australia didnt do as well as hoped so when the ioncoming HB model came out none were sent and GMH came out with its new Holden Torana, in reality it was a HB Vauxhall Viva with round headlights and some local trim nailed on but billed as Australia’s own, At the same time in house competition Vauxhall vanished from the Aussie market,
However in neighbouring New Zealand Vauxhalls had a good following and were still selling well Holdens sold on price not quality and were fairly agricultural in comparism so both Versions of the Viva were sold there
Unknown to most of you at CC there was also a Chevrolet version of this built by GM subsidiary Daewoo who mixed and matched Holden and Opel Kadette panels into a small station wagon called a Chevrolet 1700 one or two are still alive in NZ but rarely seen.
When you talk about the Opel T car being the first GM world car or this Pontiac being the first blatant GM rebadge you are wrong it was going on elsewhere before GM NA tried it out on its home market and pre internet nobody really knew unless you visited NZ where lots of versions of the same thing got sold and yes RHD Arcadians and Venturas are still here.
I think there’s a difference between something intended as a world car from the outset, and something taken up by several overseas subsidiaries and modified. The first Torana probably only got the round headlights because Holden couldn’t source the rectangular ones locally and didn’t want to import them. Or maybe Leo Pruneau liked the mini-Camaro vibe the round lights gave it and thought it looked better (I agree), maybe both.
The Chevrolet 1700 you mention – was that the one based on the LC Torana? If so, there wasn’t much Vauxhall left in the body department by then.
It’s funny, isn’t it? Despite all new sheet metal from the cowl forward (and even the actual cowl panel itself, I think?), it still looks like a Nova. I think that’s because the rear fender upsweep and side window shape are so distinctive.
As we know, since the thirties the GM divisions had been body-sharing, just changing front end sheet metal (like this), along with rear fenders and taillights. That’s easy enough to do when each division is only producing one or two different models, but it’d get horrendously expensive to do that for every size car they were producing by now.
A Pontiac Nova-clone wouldn’t be too bad, they already had a Camaro-clone, though that was a bit more individual. But giving the same body substantially unaltered to Oldsmobile and Buick was going a step too far. A different roofline with less of a fastback effect, perhaps?
And – oh no! He’s got a Ventura II! 🙂 A rare kit, only released the once, I sold it to a guy in the States about thirty years back.