(first posted 12/24/2013) How did the Scenicruiser become such an icon, undoubtedly the most-recognized bus ever built in the US? It’s safe to say that after the Scenicruiser made such an indelible impression on Americans in the fifties and sixties, every other bus was just…a bus.
After a protracted wait to see what the industry would come up with as the definitive new bus of the post-war era, the Scenicruiser arrived in 1954 as the herald of a new era, one that would redefine the genre and make riding the bus exciting again. Yes, the bar was set high, but the Scenicruiser failed to clear it, despite the legacy of its instantly recognizable shape.
In 1936, GM’s Yellow Coach Division set the template for the modern American intercity bus with its Model 719 Super Coach: forward control, high floor with ample luggage space below, semi-monocoque construction including the use of aluminum alloys, air conditioning, and a rear-mounted engine (gasoline, at that stage). At the time there were many small independent bus manufacturers, and with the Model 719, GM began its climb to dominance in the field.
By the time its replacement arrived in 1940, the PD-3751 “Silversides” (CC here), GM’s ground-breaking two-stroke Detroit Diesel engine was in full production (Birth of the DD engine here). The DD 6-71 engine was compact, efficient, light and powerful (some 165 hp in its early versions), the perfect engine to propel buses into the diesel age. Its size allowed it to be mounted transversely at the very back of the coach, maximizing space efficiency. Since GM wouldn’t sell its diesels to its bus-making competitors–until forced to as a result of a 1956 anti-trust lawsuit–GM’s buses enjoyed a very distinct competitive advantage. This pre-war Silverside design, built exclusively for Greyhound, and its many other variations became the dominant bus of the immediate post war era.
Greyhound had also become the dominant nationwide interstate bus carrier already well before before the war, and there was considerable anticipation as to what the Greyhound bus of the future would be. In 1945, GM and Consolidated Vultee were each given development contracts for a post-war bus, but by 1946 both cancelled their contracts due to too much other work. They turned over their blueprints to Greyhound, which then went it alone, commissioning Raymond Loewy to do the styling on a 50 passenger bi-level coach dubbed the “Highway Traveler”.
The GX-1 Highway Traveler was built in 1947 at Greyhound’s own repair and maintenance shops. It seated 37 passengers on the upper level and 13 below. The GX-1 was 35 feet long, then the maximum length allowed by virtually all states. That was the particular appeal of the bi-level arrangement, the only way to increase passenger seats within that limit. The GX-1 also featured a primitive version of air suspension.
The biggest challenge was finding a suitable power plant that would both be able to propel the tall and heavy coach at decent speeds up long grades as well as be economical on the flats. Powerful gasoline engines like the Hall-Scott had the first part of the brief covered, but were exceedingly thirsty. The DD 6-71 just wasn’t powerful enough, and there were no larger versions of the DD family back then. That led Greyhound to an unusual solution: twin air-cooled V6 engines from the Aircooled Motors Co., the successor to Franklin Motors and the source of the Tucker’s aircooled six. The original idea was that both engines would run on the hilly sections, and then one engine could be shut down on the flats.
Here’s some unedited footage shot of the GX-1’s presentation. The Greyhound executives are obviously proud of their new bus, but in reality, the GX-1 had a number of issues with that unusual drive train, as well as others. Greyhound was pioneering new ground, and it it wasn’t smooth going.
The GX-1 had a brief career in revenue service, but it was soon sidelined at the Greyhound shops where it had been built.
There it sat under a tarp, until it was finally scrapped in about 1955 or so. Time for Plan B.
The next version, the GX-2 prototype, was named “Scenicruiser”, and was a considerable departure from the GX-1. Although again styled by Loewy and built by Greyhound, this time GM Coach was much more involved in its design, development, and even its styling.
from a children’s book that I used to read to our kids
Although the Scenicruiser would be exclusive to Greyhound, GM was in the early development of its next generation 35′ coach, and wanted to reap efficiencies from both projects.
GM even sent an unfinished 35′ PD-4151 bus shell to Greyhound, a starting point from which they created the 40′ dual rear-axle GX-2 Scenicruiser prototype. The Scenicruiser’s split-level configuration, with ten seats and the lavatory on the lower front compartment, and the additional 33 seats in the higher rear section allowed a very large luggage compartment under the raised section, and was generally a more practical configuration than the bi-level GX-2. But there was one big hurdle; or many actually.
The 1949 GX-2 was 40′ long, and almost all states had still had that 35′ maximum length restriction. Greyhound used the GX-2 to lobby for increasing that limit, a process that took several years. The film in this video was shot by the Oregon State Police, the GX-2 presumably showing off its maneuverability as part of that process that took several years.
Let’s take a brief diversion back, to consider the Scencruiser’s distinctive split-level design. It was hardly new or innovative; the oldest bus I can come up with that used a similar approach is this 1928 Pickwick Cherokee, which also placed the driver up high in his own compartment.
This 1937 Kenworth is even further along in the direction of the Scenicruiser. It used an under-floor lay-down engine, probably a Hall-Scott.
And this Brill built for Continental Trailways shortly after the war makes it clear that Lowey’s claim to have “invented” the Scenicruiser rather without merit. It was a 35 footer, and not successful.
In addition to the length restrictions, there was another hurdle to jump with the GX-2, the same one that the GX-1 had failed to clear: a suitable power plant. The prototype GX-2 used the DD 6-71, now up to some 200 hp, but it just wasn’t going to be up to the task of a fully loaded 40′ bus. GM used the GX-2’s limited revenue service to experiment with various solutions to soup up the 6-71. Different cylinder liners with bigger ports, high lift cams, and a higher operating engine speed were tried, but not considered satisfactory. A two-speed auxiliary transmission helped a bit further. The GX-2 was just underpowered.
GM took on the task of building the final production-version Scenicruiser prototype in 1953, now officially called the PD-4501, as a model for the 500 more that Greyhound initially contracted for. The PD-5401 was strictly reserved for Greyhound and along with a contract extension for 500 more, a total of 1001 Scenicruisers were built, including the prototype.
The production Scenicruiser shared much of its design and technology with GM’s next generation 35′ intercity coach, the legendary PD-4104. That went into production in 1953, one year ahead of the Scenicruiser, and was the first truly modern coach, with air suspension that dramatically improved passenger comfort. Its story should really come first, since it arrived ahead of the Scenicruiser and pioneered most of its styling and many features, but we’ll come back to it. The two were essentially co-developed, and shared much in common, except for their drive train and size.
Whereas the 35′ PD-4104 used the now-classic GM Coach drive train with the transverse 6-71 engine, a Spicer non-synchro four speed transmission and Vee drive to the single rear axle, GM came up with something unique for the Scenicruiser.
Twin DD 4-71 four cylinder engines were mounted longitudinally, side-by-side, connected together with a fluid coupling whose output was fed to a solenoid-operated clutch, a three-speed transmission with synchronized second and third gear, and a two-speed auxiliary transmission to split the gears, for a total of six gears. Drive was to the rear-most axle only.
Only one of the engines had a starter; the other would automatically be engaged via the fluid coupling after the first one started. Both fluid couplings fed into the transmission.
Because the clutch was solenoid-operated, it was essentially on or off, resulting in inevitably jerky starts and shifts, although presumably the fluid coupling would have dampened that somewhat. That was revised in 1955 with a mechanical linkage for the clutch, giving smoother starts. But unlike the legendary reliability of the traditional GMC drive trains in the 35′ buses, the Rube Goldbergian affair in the Scenicruisers quickly proved very troublesome and unreliable.
Greyhound was so deeply frustrated with the availability rate of the Scenicruiser that they actually shipped one to Germany, to have Mercedes install one of their diesel engines and test it on the autobahn. Take that, GM! Other problems were cropping up too, mainly structural ones in the area of the side windows above the rear-most axle. GM’s vaunted reputation with coaches was cracking, literally.
By 1956, Greyhound and GM were in a major tiff, trading barbs in the press, which escalated into a lawsuit. Greyhound never ordered another Scenicruiser after the initial batch of 1000 already contracted, and within a few years bought the Canadian bus manufacturer MCI. Greyhound had little choice but to buy some more conventional GM buses until it could source all of its needs from MCI, and then never looked back. This, along with the federal decree requiring GM to sell its diesel engines to its competitors after 1956 were the key turning points in the eventual decline and demise of GM’s intercity bus business.
A solution to the Scenicruiser’s power train problems, albeit an expensive one, arrived in 1959 when Detroit Diesel finally unveiled an eight-cylinder engine, the 8-71V, rated at 318 hp. Greyhound signed a pricey $10 million dollar contract with Marmon-Harrington to completely rebuild the whole drive train in its whole fleet of Scenicruisers.
The V8 diesel engine, still mounted longitudinally, now drove through a conventional clutch and Spicer non-synchro four speed gear box; essentially the same as the 35′ buses, without the vee drive.
The fleet of Scenicruisers also got a refresh of its interiors, and went back to work. The drive train issues were now resolved, but the structural ones continued to plague the big buses, requiring recurring patches. Greyhound was not pleased.
But the Scenicruiser captured the public’s attention and admiration, generating the kind of interest that a bus could only dream of doing today.
The Scenicruiser also inspired a lot of me-too competitors, the most blatant rip-off being this Beck DH-1040 from 1955. Only twelve were built, so I guess GM and Greyhound weren’t too worried.
Actually, Beck’s DH-1000, which appeared in 1950, was in production several years before the Scenicruiser. But Beck had a tradition of imitating GM coaches, and there’s little doubt that it was “inspired” by the 1949 GX-2 prototype. Beck was very quick about getting new models out the door.
Flxible also joined the party in 1955 with their Vistaliner, powered by a Cummins diesel. Trailways bought some, but eventually found their ultimate Scenicruiser competitor further afield: in Germany.
Trailways went shopping at Kässbohrer, the renowned maker of Setra buses. They specified a similar-sized 40′ luxury bus, the Golden Eagle. One key difference was that it had a continuous high seating area, and as such, the Golden Eagle was the true prototype of all modern tall-boy buses. It even had a rear lounge and a hostess that served refreshments.
In 1958, Kässbohrer also delivered four articulated Golden Eagles to Trailways, but that turned out to be a bit more than Trailways could use economically. Amazingly, one is restored, and another sits nearby Eugene in Dexter behind the former Green Tortoise shops. Here’s the full story on this pioneering bus.
The similar Silver Eagle was a bit more down-scale. The first Golden Eagles were powered by a MAN diesel; a few were even tried with a Rolls Royce engine. Most Silver Eagles had a Cummins diesel. But when DD engines became available, the Eagles also switched to the 8-71V, which soon came to utterly dominate the bus market after GM was forced to sell them to other bus makers.
Eagle production switched to a Trailways-owned dedicated plant in Belgium in 1958, and in 1974 production was switched to Brownsville , Texas. The Eagles went through a number of evolutions and was made until about 1996. The Eagle was generally felt to have a better ride and more practical configuration than the Scenicruiser.
The Scenicruiser fleet went through several livery changes, and in 1970 another refurbishment that also saw a number of them converted to “Combi” configuration. These had a large rear cargo area walled off at the rear of the bus, of varying size, and a large exterior door on the right rear side. Greyhound Package Express was sort of the Fed Ex of its day, especially in more remote areas. I used to see these Combis still roar through downtown Iowa City regularly as late as about 1973 or so. But the rest of the Scenicruiser fleet went into storage and was increasingly sold off to private operators. The last ones operating in the new Greyhound paint scheme were some commuter buses in San Francisco up until 1975. The Scenicruisers were replaced by the MCI-7 and its later iterations.
So now that we’ve done the Scenicruiser history, let’s take a closer look at some. We’ll start with Craig Dickson’s finds in San Diego, where he stumbled into three Scenicruisers in various states. Some of his shots are in the article earlier. These two are huddled together for company; what stories they could tell.
The third one is sitting a ways off by itself. Why these are here and what is planned for them is unknown. The two unrestored ones are in pretty rough shape.
This one is has the worst interior.
Quite the contrast to the black bus, which has been converted into a private coach, and very nicely at that.
Here’s the wheel house of that one; contrast this to the driver’s compartment I showed from the other bus a ways back. This bus, like many older GM Coaches, has been converted to an automatic transmission, as shifting the original non-synchro Spicer required careful double-clutching and patience, given that the linkage was almost 40′ long. Downshifting one of these was a real skill, and not all mastered it fully, although the best drivers could shift them even without the clutch, or just “floating it” a bit.
Someone’s got their work cut out for them with the two rough ones, but maybe they’ll be back on the road again; Scenicruiser heaven instead of hell.
If so, they probably won’t end up in quite in the shape of this one, though. It’s an absolutely perfectly restored 1954 Scenicruiser for rent, via this web site greyhoundcoach.com. It’s in the original 1954 livery, and the inside is equally authentic. Let’s go for a ride.
My only ride in a Scenicruiser was highly memorable, and I’m ready to relive again. We had no occasion to ride Greyhound buses in Iowa City or Baltimore. But in the summer of 1969, we were heading back to Austria for the summer, on a charter flight from NY. So we rode a charter bus with other folks from Hopkins in the group, and our bus was a rather tired Scenicruiser, as they all were after Greyhound was done with them.
I was so stoked about the trip already, going back to Innsbruck for the first time since we left in 1960. And when it turned out that a Scenicruiser, my favorite bus, natch, was to be the first leg of this highly memorable trip, it really got my buzzed. I was sixteen, and in my usual eager (anxious) self made sure to get in the front of the line in order to get what I knew would be my preferred seat on one of these.
Not down here, by the bathroom…
Not back here either.
Right there, the front seat on the left, where I sat with my little brother. I can still feel that tufted vinyl on the bulkhead, where I leaned forward to gaze out over the front of the bus and the road ahead. And I can still feel the jerky, shuddering starts, thanks to a worn or fouled clutch, as well as the distant howl of the engine in the back, rising in each gear, then dropping…..and a long…pause….waiting for the revs to match up to the gears, and then the next slow climb up the scale again. I could look down the stairs, and see the driver working that great big stick shift, pausing in neutral before sliding it home into the next gear.
These old buses were none too quick; today’s 500+hp turbocharged buses with their slick-shifting automatics would leave this old Scenicruiser in the dust. But it got us there, ambling along I-95 at about 65.
The Eagle turned out to be the better new big postwar 40′ bus, but the Scenicruiser became an icon, its distinctive bi-level shape instantly recognizable. It was just the only bus kids and average folks could recognize out of all the rest: Look, look; there’s a Scenicruiser! I doubt we’ll ever hear those excited words about another bus again.
Two excellent sources on Scenicruiser history: 1974 Motor Age at scenicruiser.com bluehoundsandredhounds.info
If you’re a GM bus fan, here’s some other articles at CC: GM Coach “Old Look” Transit Bus GMC Coach “New Look/Fishbowl” Transit Bus
And here’s a close look at the 1958 Kässbohrer Setra Continental Trailways Super Golden Eagle articulated bus.
The Scenicruiser was always my favorite, and always wanted to ride in one. My first bus-riding career lasted about six months, from late November, 1969 to late May, 1970. In other words, until I bought my avatar. I used to ride the “dog” back-and-forth from Marysville, CA to Sacramento. However I was privileged to ride the original, pre-Amtrak, Western Pacific “California Zephyr” passenger train several times until it was discontinued in March, 1970.
Funny – the train station was a block away from the Greyhound depot and the train was cheaper: $1.57 R/T vs. $1.92 R/T! Guess which mode of transportation I preferred?
Several years later, when I met my wife, she worked for Continental Trailways at the maintenance garage in St. Louis as a secretary.
I thought Trailways was a bit classier than Greyhound, especially judging by those magnificent Golden and Silver Eagles! The photo attached is her friction tinplate model which is in like-new shape, save for needing a good cleaning.
We did take a few bus trips – my second bus-riding career – right after we were married – hey, it was free – but I preferred either Amtrak, driving or flying. Seven hours from St. Louis to Kansas City is a bit much, even if it was an overnight trip – still beat the next morning, as I didn’t sleep well on the bus. Coming home on the train was a much more pleasant experience, and was THE way to go whenever we made that trip!
My last bus ride was from Cincinnati to Chicago in 1998. Not a bad ride, even if some of the “passengers” made me keep at least one eye open!
Nice article, as even I appreciate some of those buses referred to. I just don’t care to travel on them, although we are thinking about taking one of those “Mega-Buses” for a Chicago trip someday. Those look interesting!
Zackman,
Definitely care for that model, and clean it very carefully with mild soap (Simple Green should work well) and a soft brush. I have a feeling you’ll be stunned by what a collector would pay for one of those.
Favorite buses hmmmmmm…well I guess my all time favorite is the one that co-starred in the 1930’s hit movie, “It Happened One Night” which featured non-bus stars Claudette Colbare sp? and Clark Gable. It was a Pacific Greyhound Fageol. However the screen story takes place on the Atlantic coast.
I always found it odd that most or all Fageol interstate vehicles came equipped with a railroad type observation platform. I don’t think it was big enough to hold anyone but possibly some of the buses were equipped with reversed chairs in the back so people could see where they were coming from.
When I was a kid I rode a lot of Greyhound buses but never a Scenic Cruiser.
Many of my rides were aboard the first buses to have an engine at the back end. It was a very good looking coach and was the first to have air conditioning. It also gave the passengers a nice smooth ride and was much quieter than earlier vehicles. Other favorites were the ACF Brills, the beautifully designed Flexable, the Gold and Silver Eagles of Continental Trailways (my favorite long distant bus provider) and I’m sure there are others but I don’t recall the manufacturer. I do remember a couple of other lines however and they include American Bus Lines and Santa Fe Trailways. American used the big ACF’s as did Continental in its early days and Santa Fe favored the smaller ACF
inter city coaches…not to be confused with city transit buses.
Doug Vernon
San Diego, California
Doug, I think you’ll find the coach featured in “It Happened One Night” was an Atlantic Greyhound, Yellow Coach Model Z 250, not a Fageol. It was one of 205 of the pre-streamlined (swept windscreen) version built for Greyhound between 1932 and 1934.
Credit to Motor Coach Age, September-October 1990, Yellow Coach and GM Buses: Conventional Buses, 1923-1937.
Hello: I just found an original 40 inch plaster display bus of what I believe to be
a 54 Scenicruiser. My email is below…is there anyone out there that can date my
Plaster original Scenicruiser ?…you can email me and I can send pics of it.
mylesandmaisie@yahoo.com
WANTED:
SEEKING TO BUY: VINTAGE 1940s-50s-60s LARGE 15 to 40 INCH LONG TRANSIT BUS…TIN…PLASTER… or METAL. ESPECIALLY SEEKING VINTAGE BUS TERMINAL PROMOTIONAL 35-40 INCH LONG ORIGINAL 3751 SILVERSIDES AND OTHER MODELS, ALONG WITH OTHER ORIGINAL TIN JAPANESE LARGE BUSES 15 TO 40 INCHES LONG LIKE THE ATC-ASAHI 60s FISHBOWL, YONESAWA SCENIC CRUISER etc etc..Especially the 40 inch plaster cast model buses displays used in bus depots/stations…Even professionally crafted LARGE SCALE REPLICA’s 35-40 INCHES IN LENGTH.
208 446 9881 in IDAHO USA..PAUL ANTHONY.
mylesandmaisie@yahoo.com
Thanks, Paul, for another set of answers to some childhood questions. I can see how you picked your seat, great view from up there. One more question: how would the XM-1 have dealt with our legendary midwestern crosswinds? Looks like a pretty big barn door from down here at ground level-with the center of gravity toward the rear?
The GX-1 wasn’t any taller than the Scenicruiser or the Eagle buses; eight was limited by the clearance on the many bridges, underpasses and tunnels on the routes. The GX-1 probably looks a bit taller than it really is because its only a 35 footer.
The Scenicruiser (PD 4501) was 11 feet 3 inches high. Greyhound had a booklet for drivers listing the clearance of bridges, underpasses and tunnels. The twin 4 cylinder engines were just underpowered and the transmission was awful. To get into first gear at standstill there was a loud clunk and bump that shook the whole bus. The bus became a fine machine after the rebuild in 1960. The 8V-71 was enough to really move this bus and the 4-speed Spicer transmission was a smooth item even though it required the double clutch method to shift. Then the Scenicruiser was a pleasure to drive: it was long enough that it tracked straight. I know because I drove them.
Scenicruiser
Hello: I just found an original 40 inch plaster of what I believe to be
a 54 Scenicrusier. My email is below…is there anyone out there that can date my Plaster original Scenicruiser ?…you can email me and I can send pics of it. mylesandmaisie@yahoo.com
WANTED:
SEEKING TO BUY: VINTAGE 1940s-50s-60s LARGE 15 to 40 INCH LONG TRANSIT BUS…TIN…PLASTER… or METAL. ESPECIALLY SEEKING VINTAGE BUS TERMINAL PROMOTIONAL 35-40 INCH LONG ORIGINAL 3751 SILVERSIDES AND OTHER MODELS, ALONG WITH OTHER ORIGINAL TIN JAPANESE LARGE BUSES 15 TO 40 INCHES LONG LIKE THE ATC-ASAHI 60s FISHBOWL, YONESAWA SCENIC CRUISER etc etc..Especially the 40 inch plaster cast model buses displays used in bus depots/stations…Even professionally crafted LARGE SCALE REPLICA’s 35-40 INCHES IN LENGTH.
208 446 9881 in IDAHO USA..PAUL ANTHONY.
mylesandmaisie@yahoo.com
More Greyhound driver say Mike that the PD 4104 was the best coach to driver on the highway. It was called the highway traveler. Is this true?
The 4601 Scenicruiser was said to be a REAL bus. Why is that said?
The PD 4106 was said to have a powerful engine than the 4104, and the 4106’s was the same. Did you drive any Buffalo Buses and what’s your view of them.
The 3751’s Silverside I would have hated because the gear swift was under the steering wheel, and had no power steering would you agree Mike Rigsby?
If you’re a bus nut, I highly recommend a visit to the Greyhound Bus Museum in Hibbing Minnesota!
I second, they let you crawl around the buses and sit in the driver seats, etc. And you can see the open pit mines and see where Bob Zimmerman (Dylan) grew up. Not much has changed.
And yet another great write up Paul. Love these GM busses, And I am old enough to remember when Tri-Met, (Portland, Oregon’s metro bus system), had GM busses.
Great read. Brought back memories of my first Scenic Cruiser ride in around 1961 between Savannah, GA and Jacksonville, Fl. to see the Grandparents with my Mom, when I was around 6. Usually we would take the train but I am sure me and my brother wanted to ride that bus. I remember it taking forever and the Bus going about 5 miles per hour up a tall bridge in Brunswick. My mom told my Grandparents she thought we would have to get out and push. Did not get the seat of choice as you did. I think from then on we stuck with the train, if Dad could not drive us. Thanks for the memories.
Great article – very well researched. I’m a big bus fan – and while these Scenicruisers are indeed iconic, my tastes run to Flxbles – they’re just beautifully styled……
Ooooh yes….the sweet sound of a screaming two-stroke Detroit Devil !
Local truckmaker FTF used the 6, 8 and 12 cylinder Detroits in their heavy trucks and tractors. Here’s a wild bunch of them, and a Kenworth with a V12 DD.
Sitting at my mates place yesterday and a International Loadstar went past with a Screamin Detroit, love it.
That’s funny, at 0:22 you can see an International Loadstar, parked on the semi-trailer. It’s actually this tractor, with a Detroit Diesel under the hood.
The Legendary “Driptroit Buzzin-Dozen” Nice!
As far as I know FTF Trucks (the Netherlands), Bedford (UK) and Astra (Italy) used the two-stroke Detroit Diesels in Europe.
Years ago a former FTF driver told me that he was stopped a lot by the local police, almost every day. He drove a 6×4 tractor with a V8 DD, it pulled a dump semi-trailer, GVW about 110,000 lbs. He drove through a village on his daily route and a lot of people called the police and told them there was some big truck speeding all the time.
Of course he wasn’t speeding, it was just his high revving and screaming Detroit that made people think he drove 50 mph or so through their village.
An FTF was basically an American truck (complete US powertrain) with an English cab (Motor Panels) built in the Netherlands. They have a cult-status now, the production of FTFs stopped in the mid-nineties.
it was just his high revving and screaming Detroit
A minor nit of mine, but folks tend to perpetually think the DD engines revved high because of the sound. All two stroke engine always sound like they’re running twice as fast as a comparable four stoke engine, given that they have twice as many power stokes per revolution(s).
Ironically, two stroke gasoline engine intrinsically don’t like to rev very high at all. The legendary Saab 850 Monte Carlo engine peaked at 5000 rpm, much lower than comparable high-performance four stroke engines of that size (or bigger) at the time. But yes, by its exhaust, it sounded like it was doing 10,000 rpm.
Thanks for that, by its exhaust sound you would definitely think it was doing a drag race.
I never saw it, but years ago there was a local truck driver who would race his highway truck against all the dedicated race trucks. He had a V12 DD – 750 hp? – and after the races would hook the trailer back on and continue with his delivery!
Thanks for the story. Very good! Makes me want to go and find my Tootsietoy model of a scenicruiser bus.
I believe that I still have one of those Tootsietoy Scenicruisers too!
Matchbox offered one, too, in the late 1960s.
Me too!
Thanks for taking the time to post when so many other activities will be demanding your attention.
If people really want a nice model of the PD4501 Scenicruiser, there is a 1/43rd scale model available from IXO models, and sold under various other retail names like Maquette (See pictures of the model below). Only problem with it is the interior which has more passenger seats than the real thing, and doesn’t have the restroom. The model is quite large, being roughly 12″ long so it isn’t necessarily inexpensive but can be had for as little as about $35.00 via Ebay.
Howdy there, peeps.
Holy cow Le Baron! You mean you DO own one of those? I ask you because I stumbled upon a site a while ago where the story of the Greyhound Bus Lines is covered and there was this segment (or maybe an ad, I can’t recall now) where this li’l 7-8 (happy as the Dickens, you could tell) kiddo plays with his big Scenicruiser toy bus. Must’ve been at least 20 inchee long, maybe even more and complete with details, like rotating wheels and rearview mirrors. Never have I ever seen such a beautiful toy again and I was wondering whether you (or some folks here familiar with this) could guide me to a distibutor that might have a die-cast model of similar size in stock. I wouldn’t actually mind whether it turns out to be a model kit made of plastic (as long as it is of about the same size) since I’m a model kit builder myself.
Thank you in advance anyway and great guns, I was SO happy to come here and relive that magnificent era in highway transportation. Congrats ev’rybody!
Very truly yours,
I.
Fantastic piece, Paul!
I like the looks of these buses, with those raised roofs. Sort of a classic ocean liner. This 1954 GMC Scenicruiser actually crossed the pond. It’s a promotional vehicle, obviously…
And it’s for sale, a lot of pictures here:
http://auto.autoscout24.nl/GMC-Overig-Scenicruiser-pd-4501-%22Greyhound%22-Diesel-Blauw-237455725
Great story. And you even included a George Zaffo painting from “The Big Book of Real Trucks.” I pictured that exact image as soon as I saw the title.
I have never been inside of one of these, but remember seeing them on the highways (and playing with my toy version). I am one of the many who think buses are cool, but who cannot ID any of them – except this one. Thanks for the great treatment on this fascinating vehicle.
Great article and research Paul. Unfortunately, I was a bit too young to experience the Scenicruisers. A beautiful and unique design that still looks advanced today. I’m not even sure if there was an operator in Canada, that employed them. As I never saw them in service here. Or in use as private coaches. As a teen in the 1970s, I occasionally rode on a descendant of the Scenicruiser, the GMC Buffalo bus. It too had the split-level seating originated by the Scenicruiser. Plus similar exterior styling. MCI buses seemed to be the most common intercity buses. Occasionally recall riding a Prevost bus (below) at the time.
There was indeed Greyhound in Canada . I don’t really know anything about it but I do remember a driver from Canada swapped seniority with one of our drivers to move to Texas . I do believe it was actually ran as a separate company though . The MCI busses were manufactured in Canada but the company was owned by Greyhound.
This was another very entertaining read. Always thought they were cool looking buses and it’s neat to get the background story on them. I don’t believe I’ve ever seen one in person though.
> Greyhound Package Express was sort of the Fed Ex of its day
Greyhound Package Express is still operating, and can be a cost-effective way to ship large items across the country. (I had a pair of car doors shipped from Arizona to Buffalo that way.) It’s haphazardly run compared to a “real” shipper though. Package tracking is a bit of a joke. You call a phone number with your tracking number, then they put you on hold to call the last known location of your package and ask if it’s still there or was put on another bus. Your package will get to its destination Greyhound station on some combination of buses going in the right direction, with enough free space in their cargo holds to take it.
When I worked briefly for a construction equipment dealer in Seattle in 1958, we used Greyhound for shipping quite a bit, usually for parts too large or heavy to go via the postal service.
Yup, Greyhound still ships packages, I learned this a couple of years ago when a car part I bought was sent Greyhound, I had to go down to the depot to pick it up.
Among the Scenicruiser’s ancestor there’s this 1932 triple-decker bus based on a Lancia Omicron chassis.
more pictures and information (in italian) here : http://www.tramroma.com/autobusroma/rete_urb/autobus/rotabili/autrot_15.htm (scroll down a bit)
I’ve read about that amazing Lancia bus. I wouldn’t really call it an “ancestor” of the Scenicruiser, and it would never have been able to clear the many bridges and tunnels on the American highway network. IIRC, the Lancia had to be used only on limited routes without tunnels and such.
There were some pretty remarkable double-decker buses being used on the US West coast too back then, the Pickwick Night coaches.
The Matchbox model of the Scenicruiser was my first ever car purchase, when I was 3 years old and my father walked me to the news stand/cigar store near the train station in Hartsdale NY in 1968. I still have the Matchbox.
The twin 4-71 setup sounds a bit like the twin 6-71 setup used in M10 tank destroyers and some Sherman tanks, which was pretty reliable, so I’m surprised GM couldn’t have found a better way to do it.
I wonder if they were more robust without the concessions to comfort needed on a passenger bus?
Can someone explain why they went with the split-level design in the first place? Why not just raise the whole thing up (like a modern tall bus) and get the benefit of extra cargo space?
Paul, I know exactly what you’re talking about when you picked your favorite seat. My family would occasionally take intercity buses in Israel, and they used lovely double-deckers (Neoplan, I think). I would make sure we got on first so that we could sit in front of those glorious picture windows.
I had a less-pleasant experience recently on a double-decker from Boston to NYC. Traffic was awful and the driver was unskilled, so the constant stop-start jerking made me motion sick. Even worse, the view was terrible: it was a cold day and the windows fogged up.
The Scenicruiser had plenty of luggage space as it was, so having more wasn’t really an issue. No one had thought of doing the Eagle type bus before; somebody had to be the first, and in this case it wasn’t Greyhound/GM.
I seem to recall that part of the reason for the split-level Scenicruiser design was to compete with the railroads’ Vist-Dome passenger cars.
That sounds reasonable, as I really was not getting the necessity of the design, either. One was or the other, it seemed a questionable use of available space.
The reason for the split level design of these buses was to increase cargo capacity. In those yrs Greyhound did a tremendous package express business and had very reliable one day delivery. Sometimes people would send legal documents on the bus also . If it were only a few hundred miles they could get same day delivery. As a former driver who logged thousands of miles with Greyhound I find most of these technical discussions comical . The drivers could have cared less about most things discussed here.
When did you drive, and what terminal did you drive out of? My dad started with Greyhound in ’55 or ’56 out of Norfolk, VA. He was in the Raleigh, NC and Charleston, SC divisions. He retired from Charlotte, NC. His name was C. W. “Bill” Black.
I remember the Senicruiser. I used to ride with my dad on many of his trips.
Paul don’t know what website I’m on but u seem to know buses. I own a 4104 been setting a long time time bought in 1975 live in ok got toove it about sixty miles but my question is it has a four cyl
Diesel drivers side drivers side that power my bus air someone told me it was a continental four cyl.i blew s freon hose and can’t find much info anywhere but I’m as low tech as u can get any gen.infowould be appreciated .can it be used as power in a rat rod givin to me
John, You want to use the air conditioning engine in a rat road? I don’t see why not in principle, but I don’t know anything about these engines. You should post your question at an old bus forum; you’d have a better shot at getting someone who does know these. Most of them have long been tossed in favor of rooftop a/c.
Greyhound set up in Aussie Ive ridden Dogs occasionally usually Volvo powered though. Just one thing Ive never driven one of these buses but did drive a twin turbo V8 Fuso tanker with Spicer range shift box You DONT use the clutch its only for moving off and stopping.
Maybe you don’t, but the many of the drivers of these buses did. The linkage is so long, and the engine so far a way, it’s much more difficult to pull off no-clutch shifts with these buses than the typical truck, which I have driven and shifted without clutch quite a bit. Have you ever driven one of these?
One of the articles I linked to at the end was written by a former driver, and he makes it clear that only the better-skilled drivers could do it consistently and reliably. Having ridden in some of these old stick-shift buses and watched the drivers, I can attest to that.
Never a single range Spicer, 3 range 15 speed in a Mitsu/Fuso yes and it will not shift into gear using the clutch I guess these busses had a different type.
Great article. Reminded me of Jackson Browne’s album Running on Empty (one of the best live albums ever, IMO, and definitely one of the most representative of the late 70’s rock scene) since, according to the liner notes, the song “Nothing But Time” was “recorded on a bus (a Continental Silver Eagle) somewhere in New Jersey–9/8/77”:
“There ain’t nothing but time between this / Siiiil-ver Eagle and the / N-eeeew Jersey line”
Drummer Russ Kunkel uses a cardboard box as a bass drum, and you can hear the bus accelerating and shifting during the song! Very neat the first time I heard that.
I’ve often thought it would be cool to find Senicruiser convert it to a motorhome, but still keeping the 50’s-60’s theme, with wood paneling, Eames chairs, a bar, like something Our Man Flint would have used. Like something John Madden would have used if he was a 60’s era Bond villan.
In the pic, shouldn’t Madden’s hostess have served Bond a Miller Lite?
“mmmm….1964 wash a good yearh for Dr. Pepparh……..”
Great article, excellent piece on one of my childhood favorites. These are iconic, and despite the troubles the design had, there is nothing on the road that looks like it now.
I only rode on one once, and by that time it was a tired old bus (around ’71-’72 or so). I’d love to have one of these for my own for busing around the country on to see all the Americana tourist traps this country has to offer.
I had been told that before, and not sure if its true, that the Olds Vista Cruiser Station Wagons unique rooftop design was inspired by these Scenicrusers, true?
My older sister was a stewardess for Trailways in the early ’60s. I’m wondering if there is a market today for a semi luxury bus travel in America? My daughter travels Greyhound fairly frequently and almost always gets accosted by someone with mental health issues.
Hello Paul
Nice job on the article. I must confess, I have somewhat of a Scenic obsession! Currently own 2. One restored PD4501-771, the other PD4501-1001 ( referenced in your article) the production prototype hand-built after the GX-2. Was offically called EXP-331. Needs total resto. Love them so much, wrote a book about them last year with my good friend Fred Rayman. “Greyhound Scenicruiser – Flagship of the fleet” (available on Amazon.com) I have a PD4104 (Trailways) & PD3751 Silversides. The buses in San Diego….belong to a friend. Nice black conversion is PD4501-082, Brown church bus is PD4501-468, and the blue and white one is PD4501-470. I have driven the church bus (runs very well) and the black conversion. The restored example in your article is PD4501-083, now resides outside of London, England. I keep close tabs on all surviving Scenics by serial number: about 230 survivie today (in various condition) with less than 20 seated examples remaining. The rest are conversions or rough unfinished conversion projects. We have a loosely organized group of owners that occasionally get together. We had a small rally at the Big Texan in Amarillo, TX in 2010 (10 Scenics) and at the Grand Canyon in 2011(5 Scenics). Last year, I organized a national antique bus show in Blytheville, AR. at their circa 1939 restored Greyhound depot. Very cool event! (63 antique coaches, including 8 Scenics) I totally disagree about the Eagle being a better bus in the end! I have friends that own Eagles. We always kid them about the Eagle RUST issues. They had a steel tube frame that liked to rust. Their cool, but not in the same league as a Scenic. (But I may be just a tad bias !) I have lots of Scenic & bus related videos on Youtube (search used name: PD4501771) Take care
Tom McNally
Peoria, IL
Tom, Thanks for checking in; nice to hear about all of the Scenicruiser love and activity, and that so many are in good hands.
I will admit that my comment about the Eagle may have fallen short in some ways, inasmuch as I have no knowledge about their long-term issues. I was only referring tho the fact that their basic format/design was the more enduring, as it became the model of all subsequent coaches. I didn’t know about the rust issues.
I’ll look for your book; and happy Scenicruising.
Merry Christmas Paul. Just kid’n about the Eagles. They are great old buses too. It’s like the Ford VS. Chevy thing. My problem is I like em all. That’s what gets me in trouble. Stop by anytime you want a ride or drive an old bus. Take care
Tom
Just ordered your book; a late Xmas present to myself 🙂
hello paul. just found this scenic discussion page. my name is ron isenhath im in eaton rapids michigan. i have 2 scenicruisers alive and well. tom mcnally is a good friend also. do you have a scenicruiser? send back a message sometime. thanks. this message was sent 1-2-2018
I just sold #661. It’s a dated conversion-I drove it up to Fairbanks (Alaska) in 1994 from Houston. A nice trip with a few ( as usual ) exciting events. It has been sitting for about 10 years and an acquaintance offered to buy it. Better to let go of it and have it back on the road again than just letting it sit. He plans to drive it out to Iowa this fall. I just ordered your book from Amazon. What are your thoughts on new tires for the front? will 11-22.5’s work ok, with new wheels?
The buyer backed out. I still own #661, and it’s still in Alaska. Glad he changed his mind!
I would rather ride a train any day
Whoa! Take a look at the picture of a red and white Trailways bus. The bus has both the Trailways name and the Greyhound logo on the side. Was this the result of Greyhound’s acquisition of the old Continental Trailways company?
The Greyhound Corporation of old, which also owned MCI bus mfg, Dobbs House restaurants and (airline) catering, Armour-Star foods, and Dial soaps (later merged as Armour-Dial), sold it’s bus line (Greyhound Lines, Inc) to a couple (former) Trailways execs. (I think 1 may have been a former Greyhound exec) They also bought Continental Trailways and Eagle Bus Mfg. Briefly they did have both logos on the busses. I also saw Silver Eagles w/ a pink dog outlined in dark blue on the sides. THAT was TOTALY strange (since I grew up in Greyhound). They went bankrupt and sold to Laidlaw, who run it dry and soon went bankrupt themselves. Firstgroup, a Scottish company, bought Laidlaw (including the school bus and intra city bus lines). They have been restoring Greyhound to it’s former glory, and quite successful. The new paint job is sort of a retro look from the early years. As a footnote- The Greyhound Corporation changed it’s name to Dial Corporation a few years after the sale of GLI.
Thanks Paul. I hope you enjoy the book. Take care
Tom McNally
Got your book; lots of nice pictures. But there are quite a few historical mistakes too. “Two speed clutch”? No such thing. You mixed up aspects of the GX-1 and GX-2. The GX-2 never started out as a 35′ bus;it was always a 40 footer. The GX-1 was a 35′.
I don’t buy that the PD-4501 was “the work of….Raymond Loewy”. He styled the GX-1 and GX-2, but the 4501 is clearly the work of GM’s in-house Design Center. Design-wise, the 4501 is nothing more than a 4104 with a raised rear section, and both buses have GM Design written all over them.
Loewy, like all designers, had a huge ego and tried to take credit for the 4501, but in reality it’s not a supportable claim.
Sorry to be a bit critical, but it’s a shame to see misinformation being perpetuated in book form. I was hoping to learn something new, but unfortunately that wasn’t the case. If you had found the two web articles I linked to at the end of my post, you would have avoided these mistakes. Plus, they’re full of fascinating historical info.
But you have a lot of nice pictures; really a lot….I may not need to see another 4501 for a while 🙂
Hi Paul,
Just came across your post here. Have you seen my book on the Scenicruiser? (www.scenicruising.com) You will find some definite differences in it versus what you wrote Feb 2014.
As it turns out, it was indeed a “two speed clutch” and my research on that has even convinced Doc Rushing of that fact. He, too, insisted, that there never was such a thing, but no longer. And the GX-2 did indeed start out as a 35-footer, as was GX-1.
I do share your assessment that Loewy gets too much credit for designing the 4501. He (and Orville Caesar) certainly designed GX-1, but even with GX-2, I’ve found more evidence that GM designers did more on the exterior than did Loewy.
If you have read my book, I look forward to any input you have since we both share the desire to see no misinformation perpetuated.
Paul von Fange
P.S. – of course, I referenced your article in my book!
Hi Paul,
Nope; I wasn’t even aware of its existence. I have a broad range of interests. I suppose I should shell out some bucks and buy it. 🙂
But: Please do explain the “two speed clutch”. I’m having a hard time understanding how that might work. Is there an overdrive/underdrive mechanism incorporated into it? Or?
I understand (and said) that it had a two-speed auxiliary transmission. But a two-speed clutch? I’m all ears (and eyes)!
I’ll post part of page 222 from the book. Also of interest, this device was first put into GX-2 where it was tested before becoming part of the 4501! I have a picture in the book of that contraption attached to the GM 6-71 diesel used in GX-2!
Aha! I see, mostly. The drawing doesn’t quite show the clutch discs/cones itself very well, but I’m getting the idea. Clever.
I’m assuming it was designed by GM, as their experience with automatic transmissions seems to come into play here somewhat, given that a planetary gearset is part of it.
I’m guessing the two-speed clutch was designed by GM, but it wouldn’t surprise me to learn that Milo Dean, Greyhound’s chief engineer, worked with them. He designed the GX-1 dual-engine linkage as well as its air suspension which he helped GM enhance and design for the 4104 and the 4501.
Hi Paul, enjoyed your book. I have PD-4501/371, it’s been sitting for 25 years or so, I have a 8V92 with Allison transmission but I want to try this 8V71, I had it running but the shifter linkage is froze up. I’m looking for a service manual for it, any ideas?
Hi David,
Glad to hear it! I’ve bought my manuals on eBay so I’d recommend setting up a search there to be notified when another comes along. I’d also consider joining my Scenicruising Facebook group where you can get answers to your questions: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1633953953506216.
Also, where are you located and do you have any photos of #371 you can send me for the Scenicruiser map?
https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1TCB45N1Mkso53D0sIutPm16GQbc&ll=43.99761762673744%2C-111.54830937500003&z=5
You can also reach me at paul@scenicrusing.com
Paul
to Paul Van Page, since no REPLY button seems to exist:
WHEW! 🙂
(from a BIG ScenicCruiser fan)
SJC
Paul Van Fange:
On Scenic two-sp.clutches:
Thanks for explaining all THAT! “=_
There was a local historic commercial vehicle show last month hat featured a collection of buses from one of the big operators, I will have to go through my photos armed with this knowledge! There were buses from about 1920 through to current day. Did they use a configuration of a rear-mounted lower deck over there?
Ok no Scenicruisers, but there was a PD4107, MC-7, and a couple of early Dennings (Australian 40′ coach) from the early 80’s.
Also a Flxible Clipper, 1936 Federal 23′, jail bar Ford plus Bedford/Comair, AEC and other newer & route buses. Will upload photos when I can.
Great article1 It’s strange to see whitewall tires on a bus as a few of the artist renditions and photos show. I have never seen a whitewall tire that large. Did they exist?
Their are whitewalls like that on the GX-1 in the video, if that is any indication.
Love the article Paul 🙂
Tom up there is one of the most knowledgeable scenicruiser guys I know, and his book is a must have for anyone with an interest in the scenicruiser.
I am currently rebuilding one of them myself (pd-4501-864), and am putting together a giant historical archive of all things scenicruiser (including an ownership registry) at http://www.scenicruisers.com/ as a side effect of all of my project research.
Thank you, 🙂
-stone
Great article! Thanks for posting it! I’ve always loved the styling of the
GM “Sceinicruder” coaches. I think they are gorgeous! I never knew
about all the problems and particularly, the lawsuit associated with them.
One of my two dozen or so ‘must-have’ “dream vehicles”, if I ever had
the financial wherewithal, would be a luxury “Scenicruser” RV conversion
….with a 13-speed Road Ranger ‘AutoShift” and a cranked-up 12V71TTA
set at about 750 hp stuffed into the back end!! Yee Haw!! (Hey, as long
as I’m still breathing air and keep on buying lottery tickets, I can always
dream, can’t I??!!)
As a first grader in San Francisco in 1972, I remember taking a field trip to Golden Gate Park in one of these. At that time, a school could contract with a local bus company for such moves.
I distinctly remember entering the bus. I was greeted by the semi-foul odor of the toilet. I skipped up the stairs to get my preferred seat in the rear. I was on the driver’s side, window seat about three rows from the rear. What do I remember? I can still hear those poor gears grinding….and the clearly outmatched driver attempting to short shift to make the cogs blend more gently. The poor 318 bogged….and thick waves of black smoke were left behind.
I have often told myself that if I ever became wealthy enough, I would forgo a ritzy jet, and instead find a Scenicruiser to restore and cherish. I keep a manual trans though…given my memory, and auto just wouldn’t seem right….
My grandfather had a bus company in New Jersey back in the 1960’s. I don’t remember this particular bus , but he bought the ACF Brill deck and a half from Trailway’s. Around 1969 I remember going to Dallas with my father to check out a couple of model 01 Silver Eagles which they bought too. I’m pretty sure the Brill deck and a half was a one of one built. I am far removed from the industry, however I have a strong interest in coaches from the 50’s and 60’s. (I guess it’s in my blood) Maybe someday I can find one for myself.
To: Richard Powelson
You might like to see this.
http://www.sc4geography.net/flxliner/ohio.rapid.transit.html
Contact info at bottom of the page.
Rode in one of these on a charter bus day-trip to Chicago in high school. Six-hundred mile round trip with a driver who knew how to drive it. Remember the noisy air brakes letting off the pressure. Also remember the seeming lack of any air movement inside the coach. And lots of suspension noise over the bumps. But it was what it was, and I can say that I did get catch a ride on a classic.
also would love to get off the bus. However, to bring to Turkey.
These are my designs.
https://www.facebook.com/PoetLight/media_set?set=a.1016971963657.2605.1805870182&type=3
Does anyone have any images of the original dual 4/71 engine and transmission design and application. I have a rough idea of how it might have been designed but I am still interested in how a fluid drive coupling would have worked when connected to two separate engines mounted side by side. I guess two 4/71s connected in line would have been too long for the engine compartment but may have worked better.
I tried hard to find one on the web, but no luck. I suspect there must be some out there somewhere…I’d like to see how it was done too.
I just found some thanks to a comment left at another post, and have added them to this article.
I have a PD 4501 that had the twin engines
The parts book has the torque converter in it
I have fond memories of my grandmother coming to spend Christmas with us after meeting her at the Greyhound station. She had just gotten off a Scenicruiser. There was always that special connection between Grandma and Greyhound. Later my brother and I got to spend a summer with her, and we rode to Oregon in a scenicruiser . It was a special treat sitting behind our own windshield in the upper level. What a great memory !! I think Greyhound should team up with a bus maker that could produce buses like that again , exact same style. The Greyhound buses of today just look like boring shoe boxes. If they can make a retro Ford Mustang, they could do a retro Greyhound bus .
Remember the hit by Roy Clark, “Thank God and Greyhound (She’s gone)”
Nice article ! .
I rode the Hound all over new England in the 1960’s and still ride a bus occasionally , usually when I’m out of country , it’s always an interesting way to go , lots to look at and plenty to listen to if you’re a die hard GearHead like most here .
-Nate
Lots of good stuff about the Scenicruiser. My father drove for Greyhound in the Mid-50’s in the Detroit Area and took a transfer to Los Angeles in 1959. The family, mom, and the three boys, boarded a Scenicruiser, in Detroit and went out to meet up with him in L.A.. I was 10 at the time and since we were part of the “Hound” family, the drivers always allowed us to board first and we’d get those front upper seats. The overhead windows were still operational and hadn’t been painted over yet, so it was great to look not only forward but up. It was a great trip. Fourteen years later in 1972, after returning from Viet Nam, I joined Greyhound as driver, out of the Los Angeles Terminal, I was part of the first class of drivers who were allowed to be 24 years old, previously you had to be 26 to join. I worked in what was then District 9, San Diego to San Luis Obispo to Albuquerque to El Paso. I did drive the Scenicruiser, it was still used in a limited capacity for passengers, usually as back ups for the express bus on the 10 hour routes, but mostly it was used for cargo. For a 24 year old kid, driving for the “Hound” was a pretty good gig, lots of good memories. Would so love to drive one again.
I drove the old scenicruiser thousands of miles. I hired out to Greyhound in 1962 when I was 24 yr old . I had a yrs previous experience driving 4104,s and 4106,s for TNM&O lines who had the franchise from what is now I20 North to Amarillo which at that time was on RT 66and east and west from Wichita Falls Tex to Clovis and Roswell N.M. TNMO had a pool with Greyhound and Kerrville bus lines so we could run through schedules from San Antonio toDenver. So I begin driving the Scenicruiser even before I went to work for Greyhound.I much preferred the 4106 bus to the cruiser . It was only 36 passengers and had the same 8-71 diesel engine that the scenicruiser had. They were much newer buses so the linkage to the transmission was not worn out and they were much easier to shift. The 4106 was much more responsive because it was lighter . The scenicruiser pulled down badly in the mountains and I was often in first gear especially when climbing the Sandia mountains just E of Albuquerque N.M. on old RT66 The scenicruiser was the hardest bus to drive I ever sat behind the wheel on. Besides being grossly underpowered even with the V 8 diesel . You were shifting all the time.The linkage to the trans mission was always worn out on them u had to hold up on the shifting lever when shifting to keep everything inline so u could shift. You have to remember all the buses were manufactured in the early 50s. the Transmission was a 4 speed spicer which was not synchronized so you had to dbl clutch all the time. I soon learned it was just as easy not to use the clutch. When shifting in this manner you put pressure on the stick and let up on the fuel as the engine ran down the transmission slipped out of gear then u carefully felt for the next gear when the engine reached the proper rpm . This was a trick in itself as u did it by ear as we had no tach’s . The difference of driving the 4106 and the cruiser was about the same as the difference of driving a Corvette and a Model A truck. In 1964 Greyhound put the MCI bus in service it was also a 36 passenger bus and was even lighter then the 4106. I soon developed a love affair with this little bus.
The thing I remember most about driving for Greyhound though was the airline strike of 1966 .The pilots went on strike and the strike lasted the entire summer of 66. Greyhound had so much business that it was hard to run any sort of schedule. Some times there would be 6 or 7 buses assigned to a schedule and the last bus might not leave the station until the next schedule was due to leave. To complicate things They were almost always out of drivers .Drivers were only allowed 10 hr driving time or a total of 15 hr on duty time and 70 hr total time a week . I was driving out of Houston at the time and Houston had a lot of bus business anyway without having a strike to complicate matters. I remember arriving at the station one day and as soon as I walked into the drivers room the dispatcher handed me a ticket envelope and pointed to a loaded bus in the drive . He said ” San Antonio” and walked out of the room. I checked the tires and got behind the wheel 3 hr later I arrived in San Antonio . While unloading the passengers the San Antonio dispatcher walked up to me and handed me a ticket envelope . He said ” You can get a cup of coffee if u want but I have already loaded a bus for you” . Before I could ask for where He said “Houston’ and walked away. I went in the drivers office and signed in and out and went to the cafeteria got me a large cup to go and left .
Drivers often wound up several division points beyond their home terminal. I once drove from Houston to Dallas and was sent to Oklahoma City. I had never traveled that route before but we ran closed doors and drove directly to OK City. I got my rest in OK City and was sent to Amarillo over what had been old 66 but was then brand new I 40 I was ok with this . I had started driving for Greyhound in Amarillo and had covered this road many times. The stations were the same I just had to look for the exits off the interstate.Upon arriving in Amarillo and signing in I Immediately boarded a TNM&O bus and deadheaded to Abilene via Lubbock. I got my rest in Abilene and next morning drove to Dallas then to Houston . You could not believe how exhausted I became during the airline strike I actually lost over 20 lbs. All in all though I totally enjoyed the job and later regretted quitting to become a railroad engineer even though it was a substantially better paying job.
Your “driver post” sure brought some familiar memories flooding back! I hired with Greyhound in 1962 in Pittsburgh PA. They hired school teachers for part time employment, ( summer, Thanksgiving, and Christmas). Note: The fulltime drivers did not take well to “part timers” but the union agreed, I believe because they received their dues. We trained on the weekends, for what seemed like an eternity! I remember, asking a question during the initial interview. If I successfully complete the training and am hired “will their be sufficient work to make the long training worthwhile? When I read your description of the 1966 airline strike —– in hindsight, was that a foolish question! The NY/ LA transcontinental schedules all came thru PGH. I was on the PGH–Columbus extra board and some of the schedules had as many as six sections. At my home in PGH we would get a call as soon as our 8 hrs rest was up, 2 hr call, the dispatcher would hand you the tickets( all beyond ST.Louis). Find the bus, do walkaround and run closed door to Columbus. Get a cup of coffee in Columbus, new tickets for already loaded bus and back to PGH. We could just “Spin” PGH/COL if we ran closed door. All of these schedules had a “scenic” assigned because the were the only busses that were “plated’ coast to coast. We could only get a couple of days off when “you ran out of hrs”.
At that time, their was very little interstate completed, so most of the 184miles of PGH-COL was on old Rt 40. I was a lot of “work” in stop and go traffic and hills to give passengers a good ride. As you point out, bad clutches,and worn linkage made for a real challenge on hills. BUTTT When you got a “good car” and some breaks on the road, they were really enjoyable to drive!
H.J. Crocker, very interesting to hear about your “routing”, myself being a life long resident of Wichita Falls. Thanks for the story.
Nice shot of one in the Hitchcock classic “North By Northwest”. Roger Thornhill as played by Cary Grant gets off one in the middle of nowhere to meet George Kaplan. He doesn`t show up,but soon Thornhill gets chased by a crop dusting plane in one of the classic sequences in this great movie.You can see many 50s classics in this film,too many to mention here.
Great scene in a great movie. That location was supposed to be US41 between Chicago and Indianapolis, but for those of us who live in that area, the topography is all wrong. The complete lack of trees gives away that the scene was filmed somewhere else.
Joy of riding Greyhound was severely sabotaged by laws in the south that forced black passengers to sit in the back of the bus…and give up seats to white passengers when busses became overcrowded.
I wanted to sit up front across from the driver for the best “scenic” view but that didn’t happen until after the Civil Rights Act was passed in 1964.
I was 11 years old in 1956 when I boarded a bus in Titusville, Florida and sat about 4 rows from the rear. Before I got a chance to settle in the bus driver screamed, “Nigger GIT in der back!”. I could see his sweaty red face exploding with anger in the rear view mirror so I turned to stone face blacks in the back. I was scared and angry at driver and black passengers who did not come to my rescue…but no one heard my silent screams!
I had to give up my seat for a white woman and wedge myself between other black passengers on the crowded back bench. I secretly vowed to never let this happen again.
In 1957 I refused to give up my seat and move to the back of the bus while travelling from Florida to Detroit…and survived to talk about it today! I was only 12 but I knew my rights…and recited them to young driver who actually “asked” me to move. ICC had ruled that states could not segreagte interstate passengers by race.
The ScenicCruiser was stylish but cramped especially on the back bench over the hot vibrating diesel engine.
PS: I have always loved the smell of bus diesel fumes!
:)!!
My brother I applaud you. I too am a child of that era. I too loved the old “Deck & A Half”. I remember departing from the Greyhound Terminal in Washington,D.C. as a child with my mother to visit my cousins in S.C. many times. I always wanted to sit up front, but my mom would always say “no baby we must sit back here”. So off to the back of the bus we’d go. We rode the Birmingham schedule which left about 11:30 pm & we’d arrive in Greenville, S.C. around 9:30 am the next day. Later in 1966 we traveled from D.C. to visit my Uncle Leonard who lived in Charlotte, N.C. & I sat in the 1st seat across from the driver & my mother sat behind me. Our operator was Al Joyner who was white. He was very friendly & answered any of my questions. Operator Joyner drove us as far as Greensboro, N.C. . That was a great trip & Greyhound was a great company back then. Now it is a shell of it’s former self. I did get to drive the “Mighty Super Scenicruiser”. After returning home from a 6 yr. tour of duty in the Army I got a job @ a small charter company in D.C. called Silver Star Bus Company. It was the fulfillment of all my boyish hopes & dreams.I drove a “Cruiser” for 2 yrs. until the last one was sold. There is nothing like it. Those buses had true character. Yes sir Brother Jennings those were the days & I too love the smell of bus diesel !
This is a great read! Really enjoyed it. If Craig Dickson reads these posts…I’d just like to say “great photos”
I played bass with the gospel group The Imperials off & on in the early 70s. They bought a Super Scenicruiser…I think it was 1972. I rode that thing a lot in the fall of 72, summer of 73, and fall of 1974. The bus came from Greyhound thru a reseller (I think). When we first got it, it had the original seats in the lower part and was just a stripped shell in the back. We got it roughed in with 8 bunks in the upper part and had a little area you could stand and look out the upper windows….it was great! I believe JD Sumner & The Stamps owned it at some point in time (probably before they had Eagle &/or Flex).
Great memories and I especially enjoyed the photo with the hardwood stairs to the upper section…great customization!
Great reading and viewing. I rode a Super Scenicruiser from Springfield, MO to Los Angeles (on my way to San Jose) in 1968. I was 18, traveling by myself, having a great time, moving away to a distant place….I remember the one way ticket (to San Jose) was $48.00. I loved that bus…I like buses in general, but nothing is like the Scenicruiser. Modern buses rattle, shake, are noisy and in general, are not much fun. Thanks for this.
My last ride in a Scenicruiser was in the summer of 1977. It was a Greyhound painted with the big red stripe over the top of the bus and was a freighter. We broke down around Okla mile 100 on I-40, heading eastbound. The driver said the engine had seized up. We were crowded onto an MC-7 and continued on to Okla City. I do not believe I ever saw another Greyhound Scenicruiser. Scenicruisers, yes, but not for Greyhound. Greyhound’s number was 0612.
These Scenicruisers are beautiful buses, today’s highway cruisers may be better in most every way but they don’t have the same style.
As for me, that seat right next to the bathroom would be ideal as long-distance travel is a bit challenging for me due to some “issues” that I won’t go into here!
For reasons that aren’t explained, Ignatius Reilly, the protagonist of A Confederacy of Dunces, my all-time favorite book, has a horror of Greyhound Scenicruisers.
Ignatius had a horror of the modern age in general, but he was doubly afraid of Scenicruisers because “some rural rednecks might toss bombs at the bus. They love to attack vehicles, which are a symbol of progress, I guess.” I think this was Ignatius’ idea of what was happening to the Freedom Riders.
Interesting !
Note to self: Must re-read book …… on a long bus ride ……
One of the few books that actually made do a genuine “L.O.L”
The one book written by John Kennedy Toole, and then he bought the farm. I’ve never had a chance to look into his life story. Terrific cover art.
But, about these buses–
In the ’60’s, each summer, we took a charter bus from suburban NY to the Berkshire Mts. in Mass., to attend summer camp. We knew that we were just about there, when the driver would shut down the AC.
He needed to mobilize all power to make it up the steep, winding, gravel road that took us the last mile to the camp. I dont recall what type of buses we used, but it struck me as a very heroic bus driver deed !
At age 16 he wrote another book, The Neon Bible, which was published posthumously. It isn’t at all like A Confederacy of Dunces.
Must check it out. Thx !
There’s a very good biography of John Kennedy Toole, Butterfly in the Typewriter by Cory MacLauchlin.
If you ever find yourself in Hibbing Minnesota, check out the Greyhound Bus Museum.
Great article – I never knew the GX-1 used Aircooled Motors V6s. Jim.
As always a great read. Thanks Paul.
How about something on fire trucks.
This is quite an article and follow-up thread, Paul.
About all I can add is this silly little thing from the 1954 roll-out:
Love the SceniCrusiers! Used to hang out at the GH Depot in Seattle just to hear those dual 471s start up! The 8v71s sounded more powerful, but didn’t “harmonize” like the two 471s did.
Mid 1959, heading from SLC to Seattle. We were moving pretty good and the driver grabbed another gear. I looked over his shoulder and I’m sure we were doing almost 75mph!
I worked as a mechanic for Greyhound from 1974 thru 1977. Still had a few SenicCruisers running out of our shop. If I remember correctly one had over 6 million miles on it. Best coach at that time was the MC7, we were also geeting new MC8’s at that time but they were just passing thru. New units built in Pembina North Dakota were brought to our shop to be checked over and put in service. I remember one unit in particular that I had checked in when it was brand new. It came thru the shop for service about three months later and had 88,000 miles on it already. New buses in our area were running the hotshot routes, New York to Seattle and Chicago to Seattle. Favorite bus was an MC7 that had a 350hp Turbo 8V71 paired with a 5 speed Allison. That coach could move. Also had a few looks at the turbine powered coaches, didn’t get to drive one, if I remember correctly one was a 300hp unit and the other was 500hp. I was under the 500hp coach on the inspection rack and got a good look at its power when in was put in gear, the driveshaft loaded up and the tires lurched into shape, a little squeak from the brakes as they tried to hold that turbine back. MC5’s were a rattle trap, partly because of the bizarre drive train layout. The MC5 coach was too short for the conventional drivetrain layout. There was not enough room for a driveshaft between the out put of the transmission and the input for the diff. So instead the diff faced forward, pinion drive at the front of the ring gear rather than the rear side .They used a gear box mated to the diff carrier that put the input off to the side of the banjo housing with its drive flange pointed to the rear of the coach. So the drive shaft comes off of the trans heads to the diff angling of to the side and up to the drive flange of the drop box. Bolts and nuts that held this mess together were constantly vibrating loose. GMC coaches we had, 4107’s, road nicer than the MCI’s, MCI’s were a little rougher riding. The MCI’s especially the MC7’s were a very robust coach. A MC7 that had a million miles on it was just getting broke in. MC8’s with the Allison automatics were a REAL improvement. When the Turbos diesels and 5-6 speed Allisons came now we finally have a drivetrain to move these coaches. That was one of the failures of the coaches in the seventies were the under powered coaches, the 8V71 was a good engine in its day but Greyhound used derated units! Also limited engine RPM. Coaches would have run much better with the 318hp version running full RPM range that engine was capable of.
Love the pictures of the restored coaches. It’s also rather irritating to see the older city buses, with the windshield cut out that allows the door to open with the windshield slanted in order to cut back on reflected glare—something originating on the later PCC streetcars. I say irritating because the otherwise attractive and fun to drive New Flyers (that so many California agencies are buying) don’t come with this simple feature, often leaving the driver blind in darker areas of the city, especially when the transition is sudden. One can understand when a cash strapped agency doesn’t install something seemingly as essential as air conditioning, but really, a 75 year old fix to a safety problem like this seems absurd, and it appears to be left out for looks, the big square windshields.
A few of you drivers mentioned driving during the airline strike in 1966 and doing a lot of going over your hours of duty. Well I was in the United States Army and driving a truck at Fort Bragg 12 hours a day and catching the weekend guard duty of 24 hour guard. Making it a 36 hour shift where I had to drive around the clock posting guards and relieving guards with a loaded M-14 rifle at my side. This is the model truck that I was driving a Duece and half
So Beck was a loser in the commercial coach market? 🙂
I can remember driving Scenicruisers that hadn’t been refurbished and you could see the upper rear section go up and down after the front section had already done so. In the late sixties a whole bunch of the “Scenics” were stripped down and given an airframe type renovation at the Chicago Greyhound garage. The 4104 was a great bus to drive but the 4106 seemed to have a light front end. The 4107 ( we called them buffalos} had a transmission that could make an old timer cry and didn’t do too swell in crosswinds unless the baggage bins were fully loaded. All of the MCI equipment was pretty good. My favorite was the MC 9. I drove the MC 6 (Superdog) a few times and it was gimmicky but OK. After all how often do you get to drive a V12 Diesel? Greyhound replaced those with 318 V8s when the time came.
i have 2 real cruisers.
Gersh, I worked for the dog back in the mid 70’s out of the Minneapolis shop. At the time I was there we had a MC7 that was supposed running the prototype drive train to replace the V12 used in the MC6. It was a turbocharger 8V-71, 350 hp with a 5 speed Allison. That coach was a hot rod. We had a MC6 that ran between Minneapolis and Winnipeg, Canada.
We had still had a few of the old Scenicruisers running in our area, all were the combo freighter/passenger type.
We also had some of the Buffalo’s. Lots of MC5’s, real rattle traps, MC7’s and a few MC8’s. We were the check in stop for all new MC8’s out of the Pembina, North Dakota plant. Those MC8’s were flashy, aluminum wheels and automatic transmissions.
I left after almost 3 years, lay offs after the Christmas holidays, pay wasn’t real good and the shifts were just crazy.
Great article on the Scenicruiser. In the late 70’s I was working for a towing company in New Orleans. Greyhound had a maintenance depot there and we towed for them. I towed many 4501 freight conversions. Those buses were wore out by then. Someone at Greyhound decided to convert MC-7s to freighters. The factory suspension, 4 drive and 2 tag tires, of the MC-7 wasn’t rated for the weight of the freight. Greyhound had the complete driveline and suspension from the 4501 installed in the MC-7, giving it a true tandem suspension with 8 tires. They were unique looking with long rear overhang of the 4501. I’m not sure how much longer Greyhound ran those freighters. Probably mid 80’s.
That would have been some job to convert those MC-7’s. The MC-7 was a tough coach. The 4501’s were pretty rough when I left in 1977. Millions of miles. To bad one didn’t think about that stuff. Nice Photo of one. We would swap out the power trains when oil consumption got to high or the rare time there was an engine failure. Those 8V-71’s just ran an ran an ran. It was nothing to see an engine with 500,000 miles on it. At that time must trucks were running more like 200-250,000 miles between overhauls. The trucks may have worked harder but I would say at that time Greyhounds maintenance practices were second to none.
I’m sure I must have read this before but somehow did not mention that I too did a long trip on a Scenicruiser – on my way to college from southern Arizona to the Bay Area. And I got that same first row upper level seat on the left and also remember the mustard color tufted vinyl in front of it. The trip was overnight, over 900 miles going through Los Angeles. I discovered that if I took my shoes off (I think I put my feet up on the bulkhead at times) and slept in a bus chair overnight it was hard to get them back on my swollen feet the next morning. I still think about that when I do the same thing on Amtrak.
After that I either drove with someone or flew.
Quad headlights would have been a nice look for the production version. Though, that space between the dual headlights, was often occupied by multiple licence plates.
> It was just the only bus kids and average folks could recognize out of all the rest: Look, look; there’s a Scenicruiser! I doubt we’ll ever hear those excited words about another bus again.
Yep. I had a friend when I was about 8 who excitedly pointed out “hey, there’s a Scenicruiser!” when we were being driven somewhere. It’s the only time anyone has ever sporadically pointed out a specific model of bus my entire life. It’s also maybe the last time I ever saw a Greyhound Scenicruiser; this would have been around 1973. The only place I usually saw them was in old magazine ads. I wondered why they were so rare.
Greyhound later took advantage of their widely known bus and applied the Scenicruiser name to their ordinary buses. Kind of like how the last Oldsmobile Vista Cruisers didn’t have the skylights, wheelbase stretch, or forward-facing third row seat – i.e. everything that made it special.
“The Scenicruiser also inspired a lot of me-too competitors, …”
It even inspired coach builders to create similiar body shapes for city commuting. Here a 1965 Büssing Senator based bus by coach builder Ludewig (Essen, Germany).
Image by Jens Ehlers