(first posted 4/3/2012; updated 6/28/2020)
The GMC “Old Look” bus was first made in 1940, and was phased out when the “New Look” buses arrived in 1959. They utterly dominated the bus market with their advanced features and superb ruggedness, and rightly earned them a Greatest Hits designation. Unfortunately, part of their dominance was the result of GM’s concerted efforts to wipe out hundreds of electric street cars and light rail systems throughout the country and replace them with buses, as well as to monopolize existing bus systems. A Deadly Sin, one for which GM was convicted in 1949. By that time it was too late anyway; the damage was done, and the ultimate outcome may well have played out the same without GM’s meddling. But even without that blemish, these buses were by far the best of their kind. And having had the pleasure to drive them allows me to give a comparison with the newer ones.
Yellow Coach, a subsidiary of GM before it was fully absorbed into the GM Truck and Coach Division, was a pioneer in modern bus design. Their Model 719 highway bus of 1936 set the template for all buses since, being the first to have aluminum monocoque (unibody) construction and a transverse diesel in the rear. (See CC here).
Yellow/GM adapted these significant design principles to their transit buses, the result being the 1940 transit bus series that came to be known as “old look” buses. There were a bewildering array of sizes and variations in this range of these buses, and the last was not built until 1968. In the very first two years, they had flat front windshields, like this 1940 TH 4502.
But the reflections at night on the windshields were bothersome to the drivers, resulting in the familiar slanted windshields of all the subsequent versions.
They ranged from 25′ (this is a 28′ TG-3205) to a few rare 41.5′ long models, but the two most popular sizes were the 35 and 40 footers, in either 96″ or 102″ width. Our featured bus is a 40′, 102″ wide TDH-5105. Their naming system starts with T for transit, then either D for diesel, or G for gas, and after the automatic transmission came along, an H for hydraulic, or M for manual. The first two numbers stand for the nominal seating capacity. Now you’re an expert.
Since buses are just buses for most folks, let’s take a look at some of the distinctive features that made these so successful and legendary. The first stop is in the engine compartment.
Since this bus has a split rear door, we can’t see the Detroit Diesel 6-71 engine in its entirety. For a more detailed description of its history and operation, I refer you back to the GM Coach Silverside” CC. Suffice it to say, this family of engines, which first appeared in 1938, operates on the two-stroke cycle, but with exhaust valves in the head, in what is called the “Uniflow” system. That requires a blower to fill the cylinders with fresh air and exhaust the old. These engines have the reputation of being “screamers” because they sound like they’re revving so high. That’s just because like all two-strokes, they have twice as many power strokes per revolution. These engines develop maximum power at between 1900 and 2300 rpm. But the sound is unmistakable.
The shorter diesel transit buses used the four-cylinder 4-71 engine. And there was a related family of GM buses that were designed for lighter use, and had GMC six-cylinder gas engines and Hydramatic transmissions.
Here’s the right side, or output end of the engine, and a limited view of the Allison V-Drive automatic transmission, which is angled in relation to the engine and bus.
Its configuration was based on the Austin angle-drive patent of 1932.
Here’s another view of the V-Drive, but still partly hidden. The actuator that engages Forward and Reverse is prominent here. Anyway, the Allison V-Drive was a huge step forward for transit buses. Most transit buses before its arrival in 1949 still used a manual four-speed transmission, which highway coaches kept for several more decades, due to its much greater efficiency. But the shifting of the non-synchronized transmission was grueling, especially given the 40′ linkage that it entailed. It’s hard to imagine now, the endless double-clutching and shifting, given the stop-and-go cycles of inner-city transit bus operation.
The Allison V-Drive has a wide-range torque convertor, which allowed the engine to spool up to almost maximum rpm on full-throttle take off (almost the only kind). Depending on gearing (and to some degree on the whims of the particular transmission), at somewhere between 25 and 35 mph came a powerful clunk/lurch into direct drive. The reason it was so noticeable, is because top gear was a direct mechanical connection; the torque converter was locked-up or bypassed, for efficiency. That meant that the engine dropped quite a bit in the rpm band, and any further acceleration was leisurely, to say the least. Top speed on transit buses was roughly 45 – 50 mph.
Like the later “new look” buses, these also came in “Suburban” versions, used for longer routes and highway use. They lacked a rear door, had larger windows, and coach-type seating throughout. They had a higher highway top speed (60-65 mph), as they used the VS2 version of the Allison, which had a planetary overdrive on the input shaft that engaged automatically above a certain speed. A manual transmission was also still offered on these.
The other huge step forward was GM’s air suspension, which arrived on these buses in 1953 or so. The transformation was quite startling, in terms of ride quality. In order to carry such heavy loads, the leaf springs on the previous buses had to be very stiff, and unless well loaded, the ride was quite harsh.
Here’s a look at the rear suspension (looking forward); the air bags are very visible, as is the drive shaft.
And here’s the front end. The trailing control arms (two sets) are visible. Like most air suspensions, they leak. When I used to start my bus up in the morning, it would magically rise from its low-rider position, like an inflatable toy.
During my short bus-driving career at Iowa City Transit (1975-1976), the system had all new look buses except for one ancient 1948 40′ bus like this one, as an emergency backup if one of the newer ones broke down. As such, it had the leaf springs and a bone-jarring ride when empty. And during the winter months, the system rented a handful of 40′ air-ride “old-look” buses to handle the crush of passengers on the busiest routes by switching to higher-frequency service.
I’ll never forget my first drive: it was downtown, and I was relieving a driver for the afternoon shift. Compared to the picture-window “fish-bowl” buses, this thing was like climbing into a submarine. The visibility was drastically reduced, especially if one was tall. I’d have to hunch way over and peer up to see traffic lights.
And although they were supposedly made of alloy like the newer buses, the old ones felt much heavier, more ponderous, and sluggish. Well, the 35 foot New Look buses were smaller, lighter and more powerful, so it’s not surprising that they felt almost “sporty” in comparison. But I got used to the old tanks, and before long, was whipping them around, although that expression seems a bit of a stretch. More like it was whipping me around; these U boats were a handful.
This bus has been converted into a mobile restaurant of some sort, but wasn’t open. Let’s see, what would be the appropriate food to serve in a bus? Seems like a french fryer would have to be on board.
Here’s how it would have looked back in its day hauling passengers.
And haul they did. I used to ride these quite a lot in Baltimore when I’d hook school. The #8, went right from the courthouse in Towson down York Road into downtown. I have some colorful and zesty memories of those rides.
I was a bit surprised to see them still serving the main lines in Los Angeles, probably right into the early eighties. Must have been the climate. Most of these buses served at least twenty years in front line duty, up to thirty or more, testament to their structural integrity, which was probably never surpassed.
the past and the future; or vice versa?
Speaking of Southern California, it was one of the more contentious areas where GM (and some other “partners”) played a role in the downfall of the high-speed regional Red and Yellow Line light rail systems that were once the envy of the world, as well as the transit planners of today (part of the Red Line has been rebuilt at great expense).
I’m not going to go into the whole story here, as it’s complex and can’t be done justice in this space. And there’s no question that GM doesn’t deserve full credit for the whole huge transition away from the electric trams that once served almost every city and even smaller towns. But there is no question that GM deliberately undertook and participated in a number of schemes to convert rail systems, and monopolize existing bus systems, with the goal of selling more buses.
The more nefarious theory is that GM really wanted to sell more cars, as the buses increasingly were swallowed up in the rapidly congesting surface streets, instead of the dedicated rights-of-way most regional rail systems enjoyed. This was particularly so the case in Southern California. Obviously, it wasn’t as simple as that, as folks were spreading out rapidly after WWII, and the still-private and declining rails systems lacked the required capital to expand, since no public funds were then involved, for the most part. Bus service, even a mediocre one, was relatively cheap to implement, wherever the new roads were built. Wiki has a story on it here.
Agent of change or faithful servant, the old look GM buses did what was asked of them, and then some.
Related reading:
GMC Coach “New Look” transit bus
Great article, and I think this is one of GM’s greatest hits. One minor nitpick, lots of 4 and 6-71 engines had 2 valve heads. This was particularly true of transit engines. They also had very small injectors, “figure 8” ports and mild cam/injector timing. Thats why they lasted so long. At the other end of the scale were fire truck engines, which were cranked up as far as you could go without raw water cooling( ie: marine applications).
Setting these engines up to run well and provide maximum power and economy was an art, and I used to really enjoy it. Can’t say I enjoyed working on buses though.
Good point on the two valve heads; changed that.
I rode these buses occasionally in the 1960’s in NJ. The last one I saw in operation was in Juárez Mexico in 1986.
We had these running in Salem Oregon. All the way up to the early 90’s along a fleet of fish bowl new look buses. We didn’t rid of them until we got the RTS 1994 version. Made by Greyhound with a straight front axle instead of A-arm independent front suspension. Old look had diesel toroflow motor and the new look had 6v-71 Detroit and a few 8v-71 in the 40ft suburban 4speed manual transmission type fish bowls with high back reclining passenger seats mostly used for park and ride buses. 1981 RTS bus was powered by a Detroit 92 twin turbo and the RTS Greyhound had Silver 92
I am looking for a mechanic’s help with my ’57 TDH 4512. It is in a field, 20 miles south of Gainesville, Florida. The Bendix tu flo 500 is not developing air pressure to the bags or brakes. The brake lights and generator are inoperable due to disconnected wiring in the rear engine bay.
Cannot leave the property (as of May 2021). Any advisement is welcome. Thank you.
If the Bus is still stuck email
We used to have a company that ran between the Air Force Base & town that mostly used old & pretty worn-out busses. One driver had a story of finding a gate closed & frustration put the GM bus in reverse & backed up pretty quickly. He said that he was surprised that the transmission shifted into lockup when backing pretty fast.
The transmission that you describe in these buses is much like the old Packard Ultramatic. As I understand it, it was pure torque converter (like the Dynaflow) with a lockup feature for “high” gear. The later Twin Ultramatic added an intermediate gear, so it was more like a Powerglide (for first and second gears) with the lockup torque converter (for third). Because Packard did not use the torque tube as did Buick and Chevy, the lockup converter was a simple but effective solution that neither Buick nor Chevy could take advantage of. But these buses plainly could!
I never rode one of the old-look buses, but would certainly like to. But from the sound of things, there would not be much difference between the two (at least if the old-look had air suspension).
These were still running in daily service in the early 1980s in Muncie, Indiana when I was in college. These would roar past our apartment multiple times a day. Every time I look at one of these I think of Rosa Parks. I believe that she had her picture taken several times in and around these buses.
JP, why couldn’t Buick or Chevrolet use the lockup with a torque tube? I know the general structure, but I’m really far of the mechanical details to understand.
I used to ride those every day. In Salem they kept them around up into the 80’s. When living in Minneapolis we rode on fishbowl metro buses, but on returning to Salem, still the old look buses. They only had a few fishbowls here until they transition straight into the RTS buses.
Phoenix Transit System used these buses, painted dull green, into the 1980s and used them for school runs. I’d often tell kids they were converted WW2 submarines and they’d believe it. PTS also had a 4 banger bus for PR displays, done up with a faux brick paint job and wooden shingle “roof”. We were told never to take it on the freeway. I found out why one day – it would hardly make it up the on ramp and the shingles would fly off at speed.
Great post on some under appreciated machinery and engineering. It is amazing how General Motors could design the best road and rail transportation in the world in the 1930’s thru 1950’s, then produce the Vega and the Citation a generation later.
Paul, your commercial vehicle posts are some of your best work. Thanks for the effort and keep them coming!
So, in other words, keep on truckin?
Does anyone think of this when looking at one of these rolling sculptures?
Man, I love Katherine Ross! Thanks for the great post, Paul. I could look at pictures of these beauties all day long! (No, not KR, but the buses!)
I drove that bus!
Not in the movie…obviously. The bus. It was sold by Santa Monica’s transit agency and wound up owned by Kent State University’s Campus Bus Service, which had become the transit agency for the cities of Kent and Ravenna, Ohio. The bus line was 100-percent student run; and I had a student-job as a driver.
“The Graduate” as that bus was called, was the one Old Look they were hanging onto. They’d just recently cleansed their pool of Old Looks; but they still used The Graduate to protect service, in addition to parade duties.
(I missed this thread when it came out…)
Elaine !
I remember these things – we had blue-and-yellow ones in New Albany, Indiana, when I was a kid. They had mostly disappeared by the late seventies, when I was in high school. Here’s another thing that goes along with what Paul was saying about how GM displaced trams, etc. with these. The bus barn over on Vincennes St. had, at one time, been the city’s trolley barn, and one could still see the tracks leading into the building where they were embedded in the sidewalks.
“So that’s why you killed Acme and Maroon? For this Freeway? You’re kidding.”
“Of course not. You lack vision. I see a place where people get off and on the Freeway. On and off. Off and on. All day, all night. Soon where Toontown once stood will be a string of gas stations. Inexpensive motels. Restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food. Tyre salons. Automobile dealerships. And wonderful, wonderful bill boards reaching as far as the eye can see… My god, It’ll be beautiful.”
+1!
Hmm. A Diner Bus is an intriguing idea! Find an old Scenicruiser and do dinner tours of Chicago. Or maybe Midnight Martini tours! Yeah, that’s the ticket…
Maybe I’ll just stick to RV dreaming..
Anybody else notice the Duster with some sort of Government seal in the MTA pic with the Old and New Look busses?
That looks like the seal for the City of Baltimore.
“Hmm. A Diner Bus is an intriguing idea…”
That reminds me of a standard school bus-type Bluebird coach when I was in the air force. Beale AFB had a diner bus used to feed the Security Police while on duty on the flight line. Standard air force blue. In the name/destination area window above the windshield, they gave it a name: “Buckley’s Greasy Spoon”.
I used to laugh whenever I saw it and still smile when I think of it today. Long, long time ago…
…and speaking of signs on destination boards, one of the commuter buses at the place I used to work was an old LA area bus, and had its old board which would show different LA destinations from time to time. Another one simply stated WRONG BUS.
On the Kenton Band bus the destination was “NOWHERE.”
I drove a school bus for job security but would have hesitated to start on one of these. My hat is off.
I think the interstate highway system bears much of the blame for the death of the transit systems and the birth of the suburbs. So Eisehower was as much to blame as GM.
The damage was already done by then; this happened in the thirties and forties mostly.
I can’t think of the exact year, but peak passenger rail travel (WWll was an anomaly) was 1927.
Thank the U.S. highway system then being built and completed in some areas, opening the door to practical long-distance automobile travel.
The Interurban systems died by 1940. Mainline railroad passenger branch lines died by the early 1950’s, sealing the eventual doom of the long-distance passenger train and the loss of U.S. postal contracts finally did it in. Amtrak saved what was left, and are trying to expand if and where it makes sense.
As I get older, I want to drive long distances less and less, and more passenger rail that is practical to use would be more than welcome, as I am a rail enthusiast even more than an auto enthusiast.
Fascinating!
I may have ridden one or two of the older fishbowl buses a time or two back when in Jr High and taking the bus to and fro in the late 70’s via Pierce Transit but really can’t remember as it’s so long ago now.
Pierce Transit in Tacoma and Seattle’s Metro still used many of those buses until the early to mid 80’s when the oldest of the bunch, the old look buses from the 1940’s were finally retired – at least with Metro at any rate. I know Tacoma had them in their fleet until well into the 70’s at the very least.
Seattle’s Metro has had an interesting history, beginning as various trolley lines, each owned by a different company and finally consolidated into a new bus transit system then called Seattle Transit (just within the city) and still several transit systems out in the county itself. They purchased new buses, beginning in 1939 and found one of them in a field in Tacoma in recent years and is now part of the historic fleet though a video shows it nowhere near ready for prime time.
Then in 1973 the county lines and Seattle Transit merged and became one large transit system, Metro as we know it today.
When Metro was formed, new buses were purchased that year to begin upgrading the fleet that was beginning to wear out and the newest models at that time were the GMC fishbowl buses bought as early as 1963 through the late 1960’s, the last perhaps purchased around 1968 or so. The first new buses to come online with Metro were made by AM General and came online in 1976 and was a company that briefly made buses in the US between the early 70’s and about 1980 before getting out of the bus business.
Today, Metro has a bunch of New Flyer buses, most purchased since about 1998 with articulated diesel buses, most have since been purchased as hybrid buses, beginning in 2002.
Metro has also purchased buses from M.A.N, a German company but parts availability issues caused them to be retired a few years ago and they were purchased in 1986-87 and retired by 2004 or so, they also bought a bunch of Breda buses, which are now the oldest buses in the fleet still, but were dual propulsion buses when purchased to run in the then new transit tunnel under downtown. They have since been retired, though a few are still in use on surface streets as I type for a while longer as strictly electric trolley buses. And they’ve have Gullig buses, most of those are still on the road and were purchased between 1996-2002.
Today, Metro is setting up several rapid ride lines with 2 more coming online this fall and are noted by being red instead of being green, teal and blue like the regular buses and with Sound Transit, has light rail and commuter rail to help serve the entire I-5 corridor from Everett south to Tacoma.
and one last tidbit, Metro was the first to use wheelchair lifts and wheel chair stations where the front seats fold up some 11 years before the ADA mandate for transit systems to be more disabled friendly but were slow to implement the newer low floor buses but has the largest fleet of articulated buses anywhere and the highest concentration there of as well within the fleet itself,going back decades.
All this according to their website.
Second and third photos from the top: It’s interesting that the buses were slab-sided long before that became fashionable for passenger cars, but still had painted-on “fender” silhouettes, to blend in with the traffic, I guess.
“In case of emergency, kick out rear window.” – Safety sticker in rear of these buses in the St. Louis area.
I couldn’t tell you how many times I wanted to do that just to see how easy or hard it was.
You’re correct about how smooth these things rode. I got to ride on them quite often, especially in the middle-to-late 1970’s when I worked in downtown STL – Bi-State still used these at that time! Sometimes the AC worked, sometimes not.
I liked the odd-chamfered windshield half, probably that was for the door mechanism. Steering wheel larger than a trash can lid. Standee-windows, which I utilized more than once on my commutes back then.
It speaks volumes that these were kept in service long after the newer models came out.
Bring on the Flxibles…
Now I have to watch “Who Framed Roger Rabbit?” again…
Nothing inspired sheer terror in my mind quite like a screaming jimmy at WOT when I was the tender age of 4.
I have no experience with these but St. John’s transit was still running a few new looks when I lived there 15 years ago. Their fleet consisted mostly of MCI Classics but I was always happier to see/hear a new look come around the corner as I waited at the bus stop, I had gotten over my fear of them by that point.
“Nothing inspired sheer terror in my mind quite like a screaming jimmy at WOT when I was the tender age of 4.”
Or when you were behind one at a stoplight and the thing left you in a cloud of filthy exhaust that filled your lungs!
I’m currently running a 2 stroke powered snowmobile so I’m used to a bit of smoke. It’s a Rotax 597 cc twin cylinder carbureted unit that cranks out around 105 hp and I run a fully synthetic injection oil so it doesn’t smoke too bad. Snowmobiles are one area where it does not seem that 4 strokes will ever fully replace 2 strokes due to the fact that weight and power output are such important factors. With the advent of DI, the latest 2 strokes are cleaner and more efficient that many of the 4 strokes currently on the market while making more power per cc to boot. 3=6 indeed!
Why is the rear of the bus so nice & curvy vintage Airstream-ish, but the front so vertical? Makes for a jarring side profile. Couldn’t the slanted windscreen have been left without the ugly front overhang?
If the front end wasn’t square like that, the front door would have to be placed behind the front wheels which would result in a huge waste of space. The rear end can be rounded off because that’s were the engine sits with nothing above it.
On GM and streetcars, does anybody else think these look suspiciously like a PCC streetcar? Certainly the slanted windshield under the overhang is a straight copy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCC_streetcar
The PCC was a very influential design. And it was the head of St. Louis Transit dept. that first requested that GM put a slant on their windshields to eliminate glare, and he specifically pointed to the PCC car as how to do it.
Ugh, that stack of trolley skeletons is depressing!
Here in Ye Olde Towne there are still some PCCs on the Mattapan High-Speed Line. They were rebuilt and repainted into original colors around 10 years ago. Very comfortable and quiet. A limousine compared to a contemporary bus, from the sound of it!
The roof and recessed windshield on the rebuilds look a little different than stock.
http://railroad.net/articles/railfanning/mbtatrolley/media/mbta-mp3.jpg
Just been watching one of these buses being put thru its cornering paces on mythbusters turning hard right at 50mph these things just slide very stable. They did manage to roll it onto its side by destablising it and blowing the air bags but at least that gave a good view of the angle drive setup Very cool.
I can only imagine how a car would perform with the angle-drive! What would torque-steer be like? Could one do it in a FWD Impala?
Fantasies…
I am not a huge bus fan but I grew up in Dayton, OH where we still to this day have electric trolley buses and there is a website that has hundreds of photos of the Dayton buses at work. What I really love though are all the classic cars in the pictures with the buses. Anyway just thought I would share the link.
http://www.trolleybuses.net/day/day.htm
Paul, I just missed you! I was finishing up my undergrad degree work in River City from fall of 1972 to summer of 1974. I don’t recall many rides on City busses, but we made good use of the free Cambus system (your major competitor) to get around campus-and home weekend evenings after pinball and consumption of “our favorite beverage.” I have very distinct and fond memories of the “bam!” of the transmissions on those Old Look black-and-gold beasts as they upshifted to high gear, and the “rattle-rattle” of the windows as we flew (well, it felt like flying-I think our buses all had the steel springs) over the bumps. Our drivers were all work-study students, with varying levels of driving skill, so the bamming and rattle-rattling varied tremendously from trip to trip. The U was still small enough in those days (around 20,000) that your driver was likely to be someone you knew, or at least recognized from your classes-adding to the sense of small, self-sufficient (or, so we thought) community. Thank you so much for the mechanical tour-I have long wondered how those things could have ridden so crudely, yet given such long service, given the varying degrees of care and driving skill they experienced in their operational lives.
Well, I was there, on and off from 71 to 76. But my bus driving was at the end.
Yes, the Cambus had a bunch of old-look 35 footers, and I’m quite sure they were early steel-spring ones at that. Only rode it a couple of times. It must have started right about the time you got there; in fact, I thought it started in around 1973 or so.
And Coralville had its own little bus service, a couple of decrepit old-look little 29 footers, with 4-71s, and their own home-brew exhaust pipe that sent the black plume skyward. Three bus systems, all converging on the Pentacrest.
Paul,
I have an interesting story to share regarding a 1948 tdh 4507. Only a true old look nut would appreciate it. Contact me if you’d be interested in hearing it. Since it’s a rather long story I want to be sure of your interest.
jyounker@ktvs.net
Great article! I was thrown for a loop when I saw the picture of the white and gray old look suburban (ex-Public Service TDM 5108). I owned that bus at one time, having saved it from a trip to the scrap yard. You are right about the overdrive transmissions, but they were not used on old looks. They were an option on GM new looks and were ordered for buses that were assigned routes or charters with high-speed operation.
Great article. I owned that white and gray suburban at one time and it ws great seeing it included.
When I lived in Baltimore I used to ride these to school in the ’66-’67 school year (3rd grade). Walk across Argonne Dr. with my Dad to Greenmount Ave. (York Rd.). He’d continue to walk to his job at Johns Hopkins, I’d ride the bus to the Govans Elementary School.
On occasion, I’d loose my quarter for the ride home and either throw myself on the credit of the driver (they always took care of me) or I’d walk if the weather was nice. My Mom hated it when I walked.
I too, drove some of these old look buses in the late 70s and early 80s in Phoenix. The transit system was managed by ATE or ATC and the new buses belonged to the city but the older ones were owned by the management company. They were mainly used on school runs and some of the kids, especially the Paradise Valley variety had never seen something like that. I told one kid that they were converted WW2 submarines and he believed me. We has one older, 4 cylinder bus that was used for special events at schools and whatnot. It was painted bright red and had wooden shingles to make it look like a “Little Red School House”. Even had a bell tower on top. One rule was never take it on the freeway. One day I was running late and found out why that rule existed. It barely made it up the on ramp. I was standing up on the accelerator and the dang thing was barely moving. Traffic was backing up behind me so I could only stand and pray. Eventually I got going on the freeway and found out the other reason. The shingles started blowing off. Good times…
Great article, but unfortunately it repeats the myth of the GM ‘conspiracy’ to put trolley lines out of business. This urban legend has been debunked many times but apparently is so embedded in popular culture that it endures. GM did seek to sell GM buses to lines that already were suffering economically because of declining ridership, and did buy up interests in transit lines in order to sell them GM buses. That is what it was convicted of, not conspiring to put them out of business. The key point is these lines were marginal by then anyway and were converting to buses for economic reasons — buses lost less money than streetcars/transit. Basically, they were already going out of business. There was no ‘conspiracy’ needed to help that along.
Once the auto took root, transit lines suffered. This was happening before GM got involved.
As for SoCal’s Red Cars, they were anything but high-speed or superb, especially by the time they were being replaced. They were obsolete and quite slow, as period timetables indicate.
It is a complex story, as the article noted. Martha Bianco has done great work on this subject, which can be found via Google (was unable to post the link to the pdf). Worth reading to get the actual story.
The funny thing about the GM streetcar conspiracy is the Red Cars are the ones that are often brought up and fondly remembered, I mean that pic with the stacked redcars is literally the poster for the conspiracy in every wiki, blog, or documentary on it, but National City Lines (the holding company for the conspirators) owned the LARY yellow cars, which primarily used surface streets shared with motor vehicles just like the buses that replaced them. The Pacific Electric Red Cars were a separate entity, owned by Southern Pacific up to it’s demise, which also owned the extensive network of right of ways mentioned. IOW PE died from natural market forces, not the conspiracy. This doesn’t vindicate GM or it’s conspirators of course, but the fact that the iconic Red Cars weren’t their actual victim, the story kind of loses it’s impact.
And yes I just now realized I’m responding to a two year old post 😛
i’m looking on selling my 1945-51 short gmc bus, in the starting price of 40,000 dollars, would you be interested on buying and if not then maybe we could work it out on finding a buyer asap. this is my cell number 518-390-3510 you can call me to work out on details. Thank you , Donnnie M
Great story Paul!! I’m a bus freak too from Uruguay, South America…we used to have a fleet of GMC TDH-3610 (and also Mack C-41’s) back in the late forties and early fifties here in Montevideo, the capital city of our small country. The city government transit authority operated 50 TDH’s and C-41’s and there were also 25 GMC’s owned by the other transportation company in the city, which was of private property. The fact is that all American made buses from both companies were a failure in daily operation, due to engine overheating or so they say (that was 25 years or so before I was born). The TDH-3610’s came with the 4-71 engine and it seems that they often operated at full load of passengers and very frequent stops, hence the overheating problem. But they had a solid and durable bodywork, and after a few years they came through all sorts of weird conversions to reuse those bodies. A number of them were mounted on British made Leyland chassis with underfloor engines, some others were even more weirdly recycled with things such as front-engined chassis, rear-engined Brazilian-made Mercedes-Benz chassis with longitudinal powerplant (and a rear section lenghtened in whichever way you would imagine)….Meanwhile, intercity coaches such as PD-4103, 4104, 4106, 4905 went on for decades and millions of miles/kilometres cutting through Uruguay roads (which were not precisely in good condition)….
Thats right Alvaro!. Macks started a new life at Cutcsa lines till 1992. And GMs ran in some small places (Melo, Treinta y tres, etc) till close to the year 2000. One Leyland Olympic , ex Cutcsa 803 will reborn in the next months. Look at Grupo Aclo news.
When I got out of the service in 1973, I returned to my hometown of Appleton Wisconsin, and within a week was a bus driver for Fox River Bus Lines, a private entity providing public service to Appleton. The buses were the “Old Look” Buses, cold in the winter, no power steering, no A/C, and were slow as a turtle. Within about a year, the company purcahsed used “New Look” buses from a suburb of Chicago. What a difference they were. Easy to drive, good acceleration, good interior heating, excellent visibility for the driver. They didn’t have A/C and the buses shook and rattled on Appletons pot holed strrets. Never the less, they were really an upgrade to the older busues. As a sidenote, my granfather was a bus driver for nearly 50 years, having started with electric streetcars in the early 1930s and retired in 1980, driving a shiny New Look on his last day !!!! And who did I learn to drive from? My grandfather of course.
Got out of the service in 1970 and got a job with so cal rapid transit district. I drove these old girls in L.A. in 1971-1972. They were old pasadena city line coaches. They were peppy and smelly but had lots of air vents. They had no power steering so you had to hold the wheel tight. If you didn’t, and you hit a pothole with a relaxed grip, the snap of the wheel could break your wrist.
Maybe you won’t believe it but as a Peruvian I may say that these beautiful buses have been running on the streets of Lima, Peru from the 50s to the mid-90s. I rode them since my childhood. Many of my country fellows agree that the GM Old Look buses have been the most memorable and the best along with the German Büssing Senator buses for Metro transportation in Lima. Unfortunately due to high maintenance and skyrocketing fuel costs, they have been junked/destroyed since.
Mr. Niedermeyer, your post has been the best-explaining one about this bus. Here’s a little something for you and all ‘Old Look’ fans 🙂
Through the 1980’s, Stockton , CA. ran the old look, “Salad Bowl” buses. I rode them many hundreds of times. When I was a kid, the driver would let me operate the doors. When the city sold them, they offered them to me for $500 each. Not having the money and the real estate to store them, I saw them go away. Like all the old look buses, where did they go? Please don’t tell me the scrap yard. I never see one for sale these days, or even see one in a field. I would love to have one just to play with.
On a final note, I notice two differences with the buses we had and others. Our side windows were square and the upper row of windows were colored, not clear; blue, green and some sort of brownish tint.
I am one of those who can attest to the ruggedness of the GMC 5105. But unlike most people on this thread, I actually had the luxury of having driven the customized bus in the title photo. I immediately recognized it as a Seattle Transit/Metro bus that I drove almost everyday on some routes. I saw them come to the city in 1955, numbered 200-304 and they lasted at least 25 years if not longer. Nice to see an old friend that’s been recaptured and saved from the scrapper’s torch.
Larry, I too drove for Metro but being that I was hired in 1975, only got to drive the 200’s for a few years. The old timers I broke in with always called them “tanks.” I remember vividly driving them on the Latona line not only because receiving it frequently working the Board during my first few years picking North Seattle Station but also because I grew up on the Latona route and rode them as a kid.
That was definitely the bus to have in a snow storm. The “tank-like” qualities really were highlighted when driving them in the snow.
Unlike you, I didn’t notice as quickly the TDH-5105 featured in this article was a Seattle hold-over until I started scrutinizing it further and noticed the front destination sign. Those signs were retrofitted in 1976 when the AMG ‘s started arriving and Metro decided to use “To and Via” roller signage with a mechanical readout for the route number on all the buses.
I’ve always felt those older buses had so much more character than the modern coaches of today. I miss the 200 ‘s, 500 ‘s (new-look Flxibles) and 700 ‘s (GMC fishbowls) so much!
Hello Roamer,
First off, great to hear from a fellow ex-Metro operator. When you came to work for Metro in 1975, I was working out of Jefferson Garage on trackless trolleys where I usually worked the #10 Capitol Hill/Mt. Baker line. Yes, I indeed remember operators calling the 200’s “tanks”! Those front windows…! They were reliable but visibility left something to be desired. I am 6 ft. 4 in. tall it and it was a labor to drive 200’s and later, the 800 series Jersey Junkers on the #48 Line. I remember those new head signs that they retrofitted everything with. I thought that was a waste of money and effort. Later, the illuminator signs replaced all of that foolishness.
You drove the #26 Latona – #42 Line, a place I never ever saw. As a child, we lived on the Empire end and got off at Empire and Lucille. In those days, the line used old stick shift Whites which the 200’s replaced in 1955. I went out Empire once as far as Othello and was driving a 700, a rarity.
The 100’s were fun to drive but truth was, they were just worn out. They lasted 29 years which is pretty much a record for a gasoline powered bus. But the trolleys were setting records too. The oldest of them lasted 38 years.
After working as a manufacturing planner and industrial engineer for eight years, I ended up in Southern California and when that business began to fade, I went to work for LA MTA. I drove for buses for about three years and then went into management, retiring in May of 2013.
Larry, thanks for the comments! It’s great to reminisce as my health is now failing so I’m making a point of trying to remember as much as I can from the past. My 30-years with Metro had ups and downs but the memories I most want to remember are driving the actual buses themselves.
Yes, I too felt that retrofitting all those destination signs which were ultimately used only a few short years was a real waste of money.
I remember at the time, the Latona (26/42/142) had two loops out there in the Renton Highlands that wound around in residential areas. One was called “President Park” and I recall missing a turn one morning in the fog and had quite a time trying to figure out how to get back on route.
Ah, the Jersey Junkers! Yeah, I also had to work the 48 a lot being on the Board. I despised having to make road reliefs at Ravenna and Woodlawn …especially not getting paid for the time it took for getting back to the barn after being relieved.
Thanks for mentioning the 100s! I never really liked driving them as they bounced around so much in their old age. I actually hit my head on the driver’s compartment ceiling after going across a pothole too fast and bouncing out of the seat (no seat belts at that time, of course). Hah, must have been hilarious for the passengers to witness.
Only was at Jefferson one shake-up so didn’t really get accustomed to the wire. I definitely found it a challenge to get used to the power-on/power-off switches compared to when they went with Fashlabend after the rebuild. I always wanted to be a trolley operator as, again, when growing up was fascinated with riding the trolley buses as a kid on the Mt Baker route (the 14 …to and from Grandma’s house) and the GreenLake route (6 & 16 at that time were on the wire) but never did follow through other than spending just those few months.
I also spent one shake-up at Dearborn and absolutely loved driving the old Travelers (PD-4104) and other odds-and-end stick shift coaches (both GM old and new -look) left over from Metropolitan Transit. Do you remember the Decker (PD-4107 –GM Buffalo)? …I think there were two but only one was in service at the time I was at Dearborn. I only was able to drive that once but would not have minded being able to drive that bus everyday. My belief is the only way to drive any vehicle is with a manual transmission and all the vehicles I’ve owned to this day have been manuals.
I missed out being able to drive the Silversides (PD-4151) which I heard were actually used in first few months of Metro’s existence in 1973 (again, Metropolitan hold-overs). That would have been an experience indeed and a blast to drive with that column-shifter.
Thanks for letting me reminisce a bit. When I get going, I could probably write a book. I was fortunate to have been able to drive a quite a range of buses during my time there …from the 100 which I drove the first day on the job to the DE60LF (New Flyer hybrid artic) that I drove the last day on the job. I didn’t plan on a career there (was a laid off teacher) but am glad that I was able to stick it out in order to collect a full retirement. What year did you leave Metro?
Sorry to have taken so long to answer. Good to hear from you! I left Metro Transit in May of 1978 and chose another field. I became a planner at Boeing Renton and later, was recruited by Northrop in California. But, as you know with Boeing, aircraft plants often hinge on getting government contracts that can affect the workforce. Even though I’d eventually become an industrial engineer, I left manufacturing and returned to transit, being hired by Southern California Rapid Transit District in OCT 1986. I drove for a few years and was then promoted to supervisor, retiring in May 2013. LA once had trackless trolleys but retired them along with streetcars in March 1963. One official tried to bring them back and when he learned that I’d driven them in Seattle, I was picked up as a consultant. They had the theory; I had the experience. But the move went down to defeat and RTD ordered 315 methanol powered RTS buses, an experiment that failed. The buses were eventually converted to diesels, defeating the purpose of alternate fuels and costing millions to retrofit.
I started life in Columbia City and rode the 7 Rainier bus as well as the 42 Empire buses… That was before the 200’s came along. The 42 buses were old stick-shift Whites. Later we moved to the Central Area and I graduated from Garfield High School. After 4 years in the Navy, I returned to school at the University of Washington.
I miss the old trolleys, especially the old Twins, which were my favorites. One, 643, is a part of the historic fleet that includes a Brill and a Pullman. I wish they would renumber the Twin back to its originally number, which I think was 874.
I never had a problem with powering switches and took to the trolleys like a duck in water. I much preferred them to motor coaches, especially in winter, when I didn’t have to shut them down at the end of the line.
I have a couple of photos taken on trolleys. One taken downtown while the 2 West Queen Anne and another at Jefferson, standing in front of no 633. That trolley is now in Chicago at a huge museum there and they’re running it.
Again, a pleasure. I do get to Seattle occasionally. I hope to come home for my 50th reunion. Perhaps we can chat…
Best…
Larry Haynes
interesting about the old buses, but, from ’55 to 58′ I tuned those 71 series for both the truck and the buses in a test room that had about 30 to forty engines going at once. If they were slightly deficient on horsepower we would unhook from the muffler and run straight off the exhaust manifold so they would pass specs and were they noisy. Yeah—I can’t hear good today.
Im working on a 1951 with the V drive automatic. Anybody know what kind of fluid goes in this thing? It says GM v drive. coupled to a 6-71. has sat for 15 years and after replacing a couple injectors that were stuck full fuel! it started right up and moves around the lot.
Will, just use dexron atf. Actually any atf will work just fine.
I worked for Denver Tramway in the late 60’s-early 70’s before I went in the Coast Guard. The old look buses were sold off en masse starting in 1963 when the fishbowls and Macks started to arrive. There was a small group of 5105’s that stayed on the property, though for about another 10 years and were used on lighter lines. I always had the feeling from the old buses that it was like driving a tank. The Macks were the same way. In fact, one night we had a guy come into the barn too fast and hit some frozen water inside the building, sliding into a Mack already in there. The force sent that Mack through the front door of the building! Hardly a scratch on the bus as I recall.
Thank you for this well written article. My father and I are about to go buy one of these in a couple of hours. Using your information I’m pretty sure she’s a ’53, considering the current owner mentioned the Detroit Diesel and air ride suspension. I didn’t get a chance to get the model number or length though but I will verify shortly. She’s in need of work but we just can’t pass up the opportunity!
Congratulations on your new purchase. One thing is certain. You won’t lack for parts. So many were built that there is always an abundance of spares and ample know-how if you need advice. I am a veteran operator of that type of bus the system I came from had no fewer than five different models in three different lengths and widths, both manual and automatic shifters. My one and only complaint was the driver’s area, which was not designed for a 250 lb, 6 ft 4 in guy which I am. And the low level of the windshield meant that I was constantly ducking down to see traffic signals.
I spent many hours on the post WWII relics that Community Traction, later Tarta used until they were so used up and expensive to fix in the mid ’70’s that they had to be rplaced. The screaming blower noise, the rattling they had whenever a bump was hit, they were horrible. A couple of times, the belt was tossed off and we sat there, waiting for the mechanic to come and fix it. Usually, except when it was raining or really cold out, we just got out and walked to school or home. As they approached the end, just after I started driving, I would see many of them broken down with steam pouring out of the back end. I purposely rode one of the new ones, just to see what it was like. The ride improvement was amazing, and they were so quiet, but you could still hear that blower screaming in the background.
How did I miss this post when you first posted it, Paul?!? Thanx for the link from the fishbowl article. I spent many hours riding these in the NYC area when I was growing up. A childhood friend became an avid bus spotter back then with all that implies.
My “shrine” to them to commemorate their place in transit history and my past….
P.S. A great history of these iconic coaches, Paul.
I have 1967 TDH which I run down south or anywhere I feel like it actually. Better gas than Gramps has. It’s a beaut!
Well it’s nice to see that blue painted bus at the top. A little history is in order.
In 1955, it was one of five 5105’s sent out to Seattle, WA as a demonstrator, numbered 1100-1104. It competed against five Flxibles and five Macks. GM won the order for 100 5105’s, numbered 200-299. Meanwhile the five demos were renumbered 300-304. The five Macks were sold to Euclid, OH. The five Flxibles were retained and numbered 400-404 and lasted until 1969. I spent many hours in those 5105’s, first as a psssenger (I was 8 when they were putchased) and 18 years later, as an operator…
As an owner of a 1955 TDH4512 old look, I’ll say they are fun to drive but hard to drive too. Gives a whole new respect for the drivers back then. Zero power assist steering. It’s a handful but drives and rides like a dream.
As a college student in Oshkosh, Wisconsin, I has a part time job driving an old look until I graduated in 1976. The company hired college kids to run the extra busses during the AM & PM rush periods. The service was aimed at students and would stop directly at various schools throughout the city. We got paid for 2 hours just for coming in even if the extra run was only an hour. Seniority determined who go the shorter runs. 20 hours/week, a free bus pass and a work hours that were easy to schedule classes around made this a great part time job for college kids. We had to collect fares in one of the old style fare boxes with the manual inspection plate. The heaters in the busses weren’t very good in a Wisconsin winter. Speedometers never worked and we judged speed by when the transmission would shift. Most of our busses were larger ones that had the 6 cylinder engine. By today’s standards they were probably slow, but the rear engines gave good traction on snow and we could often out accelerate cars that may have had more power, but less traction. Steering was good exercise and always required two hands. Luckily, GM had the foresight to use floor mounted buttons for the directional signals. Our busses had no fuel gauges and we relied on the garage to keep them full. We did have heat gauges, but I don’t ever recall having one of these busses overheat – of course driving in Wisconsin from September to May could have had a lot to do with this. The main gauge we had to monitor was the air pressure gauge. Most of the busses we used were older than I was at the time. The regular city runs got the newer and smaller busses. Recently I needed a photo of an old bus for a work project I was working on and came across this site. Interestingly, I also found a photo of one of the old busses I used to drive. Not a bus like the one I drove, but the actual bus. I don’t know when the photo was taken, but I’m guessing it was after I quit since I don’t remember the bus having the dent in the drivers front that shows in the photo. We had to inspect the busses before every run, so we drivers got quite used to looking at these busses. We were given some sort of old bus tie rod end to use as tire billy to check the inside dual for air. You could tell by the thump whether it had air. The bus company was still private when I worked for them. I understand the city stopped subsidies and just took over the company about 2 years after I graduated. I’m sure these old busses were quickly replaced as passengers were always complaining about how cold the old busses were in winter. Lot of good memories with these old busses. I wouldn’t have made it through college without the income I got from driving. Summer jobs just weren’t enough. Interestingly, I was in New York City for a business meeting about 2 years ago. I had to take a bus from my hotel to go uptown. As fate would have it, New York City has saved and restored several of these old busses. One was actually running on the route I needed. I couldn’t believe it when it pulled up to the bus stop. I had to ask the driver if it was a real MTA bus. He told me the city brought them out for certain special occasions. My uptown trip was only about 15 minutes, but I realized as I was riding the bus that it was the first time since 1976 that I had been a passenger in one of these. The driver also told me that New York had a statue of Jackie Gleason in his Ralph Kramden bus driver uniform by one of the bus terminals. I vaguely remember the show and I guess some of the publicity photos showed him behind the wheel of one of these busses. Anyway, here in all its glory is City Transit Lines bus 550 from Oshkosh, Wisconsin. I drew her from the fleet many times and was a proud (OK conscientious anyway) driver for 4 years.
Here is a nice photo of one of the Old Look and New Look busses in San Francisco as run by the Muni. This was taken by Ocean Beach. The new look buses carried the new livery. I recall riding in the new look busses and perhaps the old look ones once or twice. The transmission clunk was unmistakable. SF kept their new looks buses until the 1980s when they brought in the awful AM General units in a horrible orange color scheme.
Any info on a tdh 3610 ?? I have one and can’t find much info.
36 pax, probably a short one with a 4-71. Know the year? Should be on the ID plate on the front heater housing.
Here is how they looked in Toronto TTC livery. I loved these buses, they would ride up and down the street where I lived and I could see them from overhead from my second floor bedroom window.
In 1947 two TDH-4507’s were shipped to Europ. GM’s efford to enter the market overthere. One bus went to Begium and is scrapped years ago and the other one came to Holland and is preserved since the early seventies. Currently the bus is being restored. The engine is in good condition however the automatic transmission is beyond repair :-(. Pictures can be found at: http://www.langsdebellolijn.nl/fotos-de-stofzuiger/
I remember these back in DC from the 60s to the early 70s (DC Transit) before becoming Metrobus (73).
Does anyone know why so many of these old look buses did NOT have a rear view outside mirror? How did the driver make lane changes in those days? This has puzzled me for years. If you look at the vintage photos of these Old Look buses when they were in active service (e.g, before the 1970s), most of them did NOT have a right sided rear view mirror.
Good question about the mirrors. Maybe because it was the old days, everyone would just help out the driver by keeping track of the surrounding area and advising him in real time. Like analog driver aides, with suits and ties, women in dresses and gloves, fancy hats, all that old-timey stuff. I’m pretty sure men showered in a suit and tie and a fedora in those days…
Interesting to see that Tomytec have chosen the GMC Old-Look transit bus to launch their ‘World Bus Collection’ models in 1:160 scale. Should be nice models, if very small!
https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10591386
Hey there! I have a 55 TDH4512 and in reading your article, you mention the forward and reverse actuator. My question if you will ever get this is:
Do the double rear entry door switches break the shifter actuator circuit and require closed for the actuator to allow forward or reverse engagement from the lever operation in the drivers area?
I don’t know. I never thought about that. As a former driver of GM transit buses, including this kind, all I know is that the lever that allowed the rear doors to be opened also locked the air brakes, making bus movement impossible.
Reverse gear was hardly ever used. I’m hard pressed to think of when I ever did! While I suppose it’s possible that the rear door switches to affect that, I can’t imagine what the point would be, since the bus can’t move in any case, due to the locked brakes.
That’s all I can add.
Jamaica Bus Terminal in Queens, NYC. The buses have to back out of the parking spaces to begin their journeys.
As for the door control lever, at least on the New Looks, one notch forward opened the front door, the second notch enabled the back door. One notch backward was back door only. Correct?
Yes, that’s how it went. And IIRC two notches back then opened the front too. In case someone suddenly showed up to enter. Old looks were the same, I’m quite sure.
You are correct about the Allison transmission having a two-speed variant, the VS2, and this manual (PDF) confirms it: https://brandon314.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/08122011123538.pdf
See Para 1-8, page 14 in the PDF.
Thanks for your interesting and balanced posts.
Thank you for that! I’ve searched a few times to come up with some detailed info on the Allison V Drive, but failed to find anything as detailed as this. I’m going to update the article.
There is a good book that covers exactly what happened in regards to the transition from street cars to buses in Los Angeles. Railways To Freeways by Eli Bail. It’s not in print but isn’t too hard to find. It’s really a stretch to say GM (and Firestone Tire and Standard Oil) conspired to replace streetcar service in Los Angeles, that trend had started as far back as the late 1930’s. Both Pacific Electric and Los Angeles Transit Lines were losing money before WWII, and after a brief resurgence caused by wartime rationing things got worse in the 1950’s. Streetcar lines were burdened with high labor costs (maintaining old streetcars, track and right-of-way, operating their own substations), tremendous property taxes, and poor revenue. At the time, buses were just a lot cheaper to operate, an important factor for privately owned transit agencies. GM clearly had the best public transit products in the industry and unlike White, Flxible/Twin Coach, and Mack offered financing through GMAC to transit agencies that didn’t have the best balance sheets! No question GM was actively investing in public transit at the time and was conspiring to benefit from the streetcar to bus transition, but I don’t think they caused it.
Having read more on the subject since I wrote this, I quite agree. GM just took maximum advantage of the circumstances, and facilitated the inevitable.
It would have taken a far-sighted approach to save the trains, and a lot of public money, which just wasn’t in the cards then.
The hero of fellow Old Look drivers throughout the world.
The reruns of The Honeymooners just show the fireworks, and not the bus going down a New York Street or Avenue. The tv clip shows 2739, a 1949 TDH4509, while the well-known publicity photo with Jackie Gleason and his fellow Honeymooners cast members was on the REAL 2969, also a TDH4509, which started running in Manhattan around Christmas of 1950, the borough where they spent most of their service lives, until ca. 1966, when the ones still left were exiled to Da Bronx to finish out their service days. None were saved by MaBSTOA…in fact, only two Old Looks were saved…one, 4789, a 1948 TDH5101, was more saved by luck…it became an FDNY command vehicle, also ca. 1966, while the other, 3100, was the first transit bus with factory air conditioning, and was a demonstrator before Fifth Avenue Coach picked it up in 1956…there is a story as to how it was saved, but I don’t know it well enough to relate it. As it turned out, had Gleason based his show in Brooklyn, his bus could have been a TDH4510, one of three special orders that started the paired window era at GM…the 4510 was similar to an early 4509, except the 4510 was 102″ wide. Most of the 4510s were sent to MaBSTOA starting in May of 1962, to replace ex-Surface Transit TD4506s, TDH4567s, and Mack C-45-DT’s, which had, due to Surface Transit’s sloppy maintenance, had become basket cases
Did this generation ever get factory power steering, or was it always pure muscle?
As a child, I grew up with trams, and later buses, passing my front door. But Australian city buses are so different from these American ones. Certainly they were in 1950s Melbourne. When the VR St KIlda to Brighton Beach tramline (or ‘electric street railway’ as it was originally called) was replaced by MMTB buses around 1958, rather than getting new buses, or even some of the newer ones, we got these old wartime (or maybe even prewar) leftover AECs where the driver sat alongside the engine in a little half-width cab.
I have to say riding in these was a lovely experience, if you could afford the fare; I usually couldn’t, so riding one was a treat. Yes they were slow, but you kind of expected that of a bus. All buses were slow back then, or at least all the ones I’d seen. And who had ever been overseas? Nobody we knew. The ride seemed smooth, with jolting only from occasional potholes. The seats were khaki leather worn smooth by the rubbing of a thousand backsides. The engines were very slow-revving, and now that I replay the sound in my head, I realise they must’ve had a narrow rev range but massive torque. The driver had the convenience of a preselector gearbox. It was a treat to sit near the front and watch him flick the little lever in a pod alongside the column, then stamp the change pedal when he wanted the next gear to come in. Ah, retrotechnology…
About the time I moved away they were replaced with Leyland Nationals, horrible noisy things that always seemed to be growling angrily, rattled and shook even over cobblestoned gutters, and leaned horribly in corners. Oh, they were new, true, and much faster, with the rear engine and automatic you Americans had had for decades -, but in the Leyland you were aware of riding cattle-class, or steerage. Not a pleasant riding experience.
Always thought the laid back windshield made the thing look like it had a big “forehead” like a Neanderthal or old black & white horror show monster, Frankenstein. Regardless of conspiracy or not at least back then the GM engineers were building a better product with some innovation, the up and coming business versus later when they were the behemoth that couldn’t get out of its own way.
I rode these downtown with my mother in the 60’s hundreds of times, and later by myself when I got my first job downtown. They looked old, in the same sense that a 1950’s auto looked old in those days. But other than that, the adjective that always came to my mind was “solid”. They seemed strong enough to drive though a brick wall if need be.
They were “solid” to me in another sense, too. When I was a child in the early 60’s, the world seemed to work – the big trash trucks came for the garbage every week, the faucets brought hot and cold water, and the oil trucks brought warmth in the winter. Every need seemed to have been addressed, and met, in an orderly manner; often by large vehicles and other machines. These buses were just another part of that. I realize that for many folks who didn’t live in neat suburbs, the reality even then was much different, but when you’re a kid that is easy to miss. The early 60’s were the only time of my life when the world seemed stable and secure.
Rode the ‘old look’ buses a lot, back in the 1960’s. LAMTA in Burbank and Glendale, Ca.
Seemed like those tanks could run forever, just as a 1960’s Chevy, GMC or Ford Truck
I can still hear the transmission shifting ……
I’ve always wondered about the oblong vent and cover above the rearmost windows on both sides of some models. What was the purpose? Some have grillwork below the solid vent cover, while others just have the solid vent cover with nothing below. Any ideas?
I rode these old look models growing up in NYC in the ’50s and ’60s. In addition to the Transit Authority, I rode lines from Queens Transit, Triborough, and the Bee Line.