Have you ever noticed how history sometimes has a way of repeating itself?
The last time I rented a minivan it was due to needing to haul a harp for a 200 plus mile roundtrip and our Ford E-150 having a dead fuel pump. My rental? A 2017 Toyota Sienna.
This time when renting a minivan it was due to needing to haul a harp for a 200 plus mile roundtrip and our Ford E-150 having a brake issue. My rental? A 2022 Toyota Sienna.
2019 Chrysler Pacifica
The automotive landscape has changed considerably in the five years between 2018 (when I rented the first van) and now, viral pestilence or not. Of the minivan players around in 2017, the Dodge Grand Caravan and the nearly identical Chrysler Town & Country have gone away in favor of the Chrysler Pacifica. Further, the decontented Pacifica Chrysler called the Voyager debuted and died within that timeframe. The Kia Sedona exited stage left to be replaced by the unfortunately named Kia Carnaval.
Most relevant to today’s review is the Toyota Sienna having a new generation debut for the 2021 model year.
Renting a car can sometimes be like a Christmas or birthday present from an eccentric aunt – you just don’t know what you are going to get. This time the surprise quotient was greatly minimized. Entering the modest sized rental chain lot, where the various steeds were parked out front in the open, there were three minivans present: two Chrysler Pacificas and a Toyota Sienna.
There was absolutely no preference on my part. Being curious about both, due to having zero experience with either, I simply let the clerk hand me the keys so the anticipation could continue unabated.
Obviously, I beat the odds and got the red Toyota.
This particular rental Sienna had 20,600 miles on it upon pickup. Before I arrived back home with it (naturally taking the longer route to get a better mix of street and highway driving, making it about five miles total) I was really appreciating the work that went into creating this Sienna.
It wasn’t that long ago a 4,600 pound van and 35 miles per gallon on the highway were mutually exclusive concepts. How these two distinctly divergent items could be merged so successfully was the basis of my curiosity.
Admittedly, my experience with hybrid drivetrains from any manufacturer is limited. There was a first-generation Prius in the pool at work – 20 years ago – and my last time riding in a hybrid of any variety was in early 2022 when I rode in a rather new Ram 1500 having the e-Torque system. For a longer hybrid trip, it was a Camry taxi in Chicago in 2015 or 2016. That’s just how the cookies have crumbled.
Yet it appears I am not in some fluke of a minority who has been living under a rock. According to the Bureau of Transportation Statistics, hybrid sales were at 3.2% of the US Market in 2013 and up to just 5.5% in 2021. Here’s a link; it’s full of good information.
To look at things differently, the percentage of hybrid sales in the United States in 2021 is roughly half the percentage of the population that is left-handed. How many left-handed persons do you encounter daily?
On a low volume road close to the house, I pulled over and hit the button for electrical propulsion only. Needing some throttle to overcome the lip of the pavement, the engine kicked on with the dashboard announcing (admonishing?) I had applied too much throttle for only electrical propulsion.
Going exclusively electric again closer to the house, it was soon announced I had exceeded the speed limit for such propulsion, which appeared to be around 20 mph.
The Sienna obviously has no compunctions in announcing what it will and won’t do. That is an admirable trait for any machine.
Our last rental Sienna had accumulated one year in rental service and just over 40,000 miles. The driver’s side sliding door was non-functional, the carpet was worn through, and the transmission was highly annoying in its excessive downshifting. While the 3.5 liter V6 was a sweetie, the overall impression was not positive.
Yet not all apples in the barrel are necessarily rotten simply because some are. When I arrived at the rental lot, I knew I would be leaving excited regardless of what the assigned ride was. Perhaps this Sienna being red, with a gray (yay, it’s not black!) interior amplified my excitement.
Best of all, I had nothing predisposing me in any direction about the Sienna.
My first impression upon entering the Sienna was “wow, this is really inviting” immediately followed up by “well, every rose has its thorn.”
Not being accustomed to consoles in vans (really, the question of “why do they need to be there?” – especially in a minivan – is something that needs to be asked more often), one has to admit the console in the Sienna does have a nifty party trick in addition to its four cupholders – there is an abundance of storage room directly beneath. One could likely store a modest sized cooler there, keeping their RC Cola or Diet Squirt handy.
However, this also seems to indicate the console is simply there for the sake of being there. To be fair, Toyota is not unique in such things. There are sometimes styling traits that seem normal at the time but lend themselves to critique later; think vinyl roofs, opera windows, and button-tufted interiors. Might oversized consoles be the T-tops or oversized 5 mph bumper of our times?
The various controls were mostly intuitive. However, the buttons for the HVAC system were somewhat different, requiring a toggle action. So it was toggle up to increase temperature, toggle down to lower the fan speed. In a sense, the HVAC buttons are like calculus – they aren’t instantaneously intuitive but do make sense upon a smidgeon of further examination. Is this good? Is this bad? It’s subjective. All I can really add is Mrs. Jason complimented the controls for the ventilation system as she liked how they functioned.
Both of us greatly appreciated the button that equalized temperature between the front and rear. That is a terrific and greatly appreciated feature.
We were of different thoughts about the figurative iPad on the dash. I was getting a kick out of watching the display showing battery charge levels, the engine being split between motivation and battery charging, and the instantaneous fuel mileage graph. She thought the display was oversized and tacky. It seems something along the lines of “one doesn’t need to be watching television while driving so why is this thing here?” was uttered.
It’s inclusion isn’t the most organic.
However, for my inner five year-old, the iPad-esque display provides all sorts of groovy information other than just for charging, with such tremendous things as tire pressure, unit conversion, and the current time and temperature in my favorite three international cities (well, maybe not that) available for instantaneous consumption.
Having access to all these wonderful tidbits of endlessly valuable information is infinitely more entertaining and captivating than simply looking through a huge chunk of glass only to witness some cow fertilizing a field or seeing some old lady pull out in front of me. Besides, I need something to keep me alert while driving down the road, don’t I? Some drives are awfully boring and one needs something to keep their brain stimulated.
This particular Sienna was a base model. Really, should one expect anything more grand from a rental fleet? However, there was nothing immediately obvious to indicate it was a base model…except perhaps the seats.
Your humble author has a 32 inch inseam and a 34 inch (okay, maybe 36 inch on bad days) waist. Combining this with my 5’11” height, I am likely in the fat sweet portion of the bell-curve for seat designers. Rarely has getting comfortable been an issue in any of the hundreds of vehicles I have driven. In that regard this Sienna was no different. Finding a happy combination of adjustments for seat height, seat angle, and steering column was quick and easy.
It’s always great when a manufacturer understands people come in all shapes and sizes.
However, about a quarter-mile after leaving the house, my daughter commented how the rear seat was as comfortable as a concrete park bench covered with a luxurious veneer of newspaper.
Soon thereafter, Mrs. Jason commented about the seat discomfort from her perch on the shotgun side. It’s often said consistency is good, but is it always?
On US 54 north of Jefferson City, I set the cruise control at 70 mph. There are a few hills in this area; nothing extreme but just enough to get your attention. Going up one of these hills, I could see Mr. Drag Ass Overly Cautious Driver some respectable distance in front of me. We then suddenly started to lose speed – rapidly. Upon the initial “what the…?” moment, I realized this was my first taste of adaptive cruise control. It was a mixed bag, reminding me of how it is possible to have respect for the tenacity of someone or something whose philosophical outlook varies from that of your own.
Our old stomping grounds of Hannibal was the destination. Slowly driving around to view the Christmas lights in the downtown area surrounding novelist Mark Twain’s boyhood home, the Sienna was seamlessly shifting between electrical and gasoline propulsion. Some engine noise was the only tell-tale sign and it was, as it had been at other times, delightfully unobtrusive to the point only the observant would notice the transitions.
However, a weird realization and/or curiosity hit. Under heavier throttle, the 2.5 liter four in the Sienna was much more obvious and that engine’s auditory output simply isn’t the most pleasant. It made me curious if such is the case in other Toyota hybrids or if this particular Sienna was simply falling outside the norm.
The models from Field & Stream are eager to meet you.
With it being December, we were so lucky as to drive the entirety of the return trip at night. Nothing is quite as exhilarating as driving 100 miles in the dark, keeping a diligent eye out for deer, coyotes, raccoons, opossums, fox, and the adventuresome armadillo, not to mention roaming dogs, cats, and rabbits. Also, the bear and elk populations in Missouri are both on the rise but the elk are more prevalent in the southern half of the state. They make deer look like miniature goats in comparison.
We had stopped for a soft drink at a truck stop just south of Hannibal in the town of New London. That put us on Route 19, a relatively flat road with a few minor curves which is totally vacant after a certain hour. It was well after that certain hour.
Marvel of marvels, hitting the high beams on that Sienna lit up the road ahead unlike anything I have ever experienced. Mrs. Jason and I emitted a “whoa, look at that!” immediately upon the road being lit up like an airport runway. There are times I have likely overdriven my headlights, but not this time. The high-beam headlights were likely the most endearing trait of this entire minivan. They were that good.
Having arrived at the age where the evaporation of my energy for the day is punctual and predictable enough to set one’s watch, Mrs. Jason was bestowed the honor of driving the last 40 mile leg of our return trip. Experiencing what she had said previously, the shotgun seat was not overly comfortable. What was that about consistency?
Is this the same size? Beats me.
As mentioned, we were hauling a harp. That particular harp is about five feet tall. Our last rental Sienna earned demerits due to the seat anchors being greasy and exposed. It seems things have improved with this new generation of Sienna but anchors, albeit fewer, are still exposed and pose a hazard to some types of cargo. A collapsed cardboard box and some furniture foam worked to camouflage the anchors and make the floor more hospitable for a harp.
No doubt my use case for a rental minivan is in the infinitesimal minority.
The technical merits of this Sienna are outstanding and it was a delight to experience them. These merits, which are across the entire line, help set the Sienna apart from its competitors. We had viewed this rental as a test drive of sorts as we realize keeping a now 23 year-old van in daily service could be an uphill climb. This is part of why we had no preference in brand rented as we simply wanted to explore the possibilities.
But if one wants to explore minivan possibilities, it appears the figurative train may be leaving the station. In the years from 2015 to 2019 (trying to avoid all the challenges in the industry since 2020), sales of the Sienna dropped from 137,500 to 73,600. If taking these last three highly atypical model years into account, where many factors come into play, it looks even worse; GoodCarBadCar has sales of the Sienna as being 14,800 for 2021 and, as of December 27, a mere 6,840 for 2022.
Prompting a further question is my seeing a sister Sienna at this small lot when I turned mine in…it made me wonder how many of these 6,800 examples can be rented.
2020 Sedona
This sales decline isn’t just a Toyota thing, either. Honda Odyssey sales fell from 127,000 to 99,000 within those same years of 2015 to 2019. Kia’s Sedona saw an even steeper decline in that timeframe, from 36,800 in 2015 to 15,800 in 2019.
Of the bunch, Chrysler seems to have the most stamina, but it’s hard to say how long that will continue. In 2015, Chrysler sold 97,000 Grand Caravans, which was down considerably from 2014 and which rebounded healthily for 2016. In turn, Chrysler sold another 94,000 Town & Countrys in 2015. For 2019, when the Grand Caravan was still around to compliment the still newly introduced Pacifica, combined sales were 221,000.
The Grand Caravan name alone sold over 225,000 copies back in 2005.
The hybrid system of the Sienna works flawlessly and generates fuel efficiency previously unfathomable in a minivan. As should be expected, the use case needs to drive one’s purchase of anything and all factors need to be considered. All are undoubtedly good vehicles; one could argue at this point in the minivan’s tenure in the automotive market Darwin’s theory has had time to exert itself and any turkeys have lost the battle.
For our use case I would want to explore the competing options from Chrysler, Honda, and Kia before deciding. While this Toyota is good and I did like it, it fell just enough short, primarily due to the seats, to prevent it from being a slam-dunk for any prospective purchase. This is nearly the same conclusion I reached with my last Sienna rental.
It has been said those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat it. And, in a sense, history has repeated itself….but in the rental world, one’s learning is a much cheaper, and more fun, education than is an outright purchase.
Related Reading:
Curbside Review: 2021 Toyota Sienna Platinum AWD – by Jim Klein
Terrific read from start to finish. So many observations:
– This may be the first instance of “calculus” being applied in a CC essay that I’ve read;
– The “eccentric aunt” reference had me wondering if you were going to make a comparison between a Peptol Bismol-pink bunny suit a la “A Christmas Story” and this Sienna;
– I had no idea hybrid sales were such a small percentage. If I was on a game show and had to guess, I would have wagered on at least solid double-digits. Hybrids seem to be everywhere;
– That was a huge elk;
– I’m with your wife on the hugeness of that display screen. It would seem way too distracting;
– I was sorry to read about the wear and tear on the earlier Sienna being so obvious after just one year (albeit with 40,000 miles).
I’m rooting for there to be another Sienna still available for rental the next time you need one. To complete the trifecta of Sienna experiences. Great read, Jason!
Thank you.
I had four semesters of calculus in college, Calculus I, II, III, and Vector Calculus. Calc II was a bear, Vector Calc was a breeze, and the other two were not too bad. Geesh, that was 30 years ago…
The picture showing that buck was taken in my backyard. Many deer frequent the place (as well as everything else mentioned except the bear and elk). Yes, I needed to mow and that play set was looking a little aged. Both have since been addressed.
That other Sienna did not reflect any of the assertions one may hear about Toyotas aging well and being reliable.
Last week I rode in another 2022 model in which the screen was surprisingly well integrated – it was a mid-trim Chevrolet Silverado 1500. With all the concern about distracted driving due to cell phones, I have to point out vehicles are now being equipped with a huge distraction.
The rental lot I used (it’s a major one with a four letter brand name) is down the street from where I work, so I am always looking at what is out front when I drive by. Some things are not stereotypical rental fare (crew cab Tacoma, anyone?) while other things are, like white Malibus.
I am not sure how it has happened, but with all of the minivan experience I have accumulated, my all-time exposure to Toyota Siennas has been exactly zero. So, I am glad you are here to fill that deficit.
I don’t know how a minivan manufacturer can make an uncomfortable seat. If there is any vehicle where space or weight restraints on seat design is nil, it would be a minivan. Passengers is why these exist. Uncomfortable passengers in something this big is unforgivable, especially in the front and middle rows.
The gas mileage is phenomenal. I had forgotten that a hybrid version exists. I wonder about transmission shifting – on gasoline Toyotas of my recent experience (like the last decade) Toyota is a fan of really early transmission upshifts, which I find annoying. Did you experience any of this? Also, a BIL who rents cars frequently tells me he tries to avoid Toyotas because they are the worst at the cruise control phenomenon you experienced.
Finally, the new Carnival name from Kia is not really new. Sedona was a US-only name, with the vehicle being called the Carnival in markets outside of North America. Maybe the word in other markets does not bring an association with the little grimy attractions that get set up in parking lots of failing retailers that we get here in the midwest.
Last night I was on the Toyota website after realizing I had not double checked the weight of these. In looking around, I discovered the Sienna has a CVT. Makes sense as when under stronger acceleration, the engine was a constant drone with not much detectable change in rpm.
I had wondered if such may have been the backstory on the Carnival name. It’s amazing how model names can sometime have baggage in some areas and not others.
The Sienna has a e-CVT which is the heart of a Toyota Hybrid system. It is not a traditional belt and pulley system.
Jason, all Toyota hybrids (except the brand new Tundra) since the very first Prius here back in 2000 are “CVTs” (eCVTS, technically). That’s the very essence of how the system works. This is also the case with Ford’s hybrid system, which is virtually identical to the Toyota system.
The Sedona name wasn’t North America-specific. A few years ago, I checked Kia’s websites for a whole bunch of countries to figure out the reason for the Sedona/Carnival name split for the same vehicle. I couldn’t figure out the pattern. I recall some non-North American countries (southern Africa and parts of SE Asia, if I remember correctly) used the Sedona name, but most of the world used Carnival.
At the time, I suspected it may have had to do with trademark issues and Carnival Cruise Lines, but since Carnival is now Kia’s minivan worldwide, I guess that theory doesn’t hold water.
Like Jason mentions, I’d love to know the backstory on the Sedona/Carnival names.
The Sienna is Hybrid only, at least in the US not sure if they offer it in a non-Hybrid version outside of North America.
The Sienna is only made in the US and China, and designed specifically just for those two markets, and is hybrid only in both. Toyota has other vans for their domestic market and other Asian export markets.
I wonder about transmission shifting – on gasoline Toyotas of my recent experience (like the last decade) Toyota is a fan of really early transmission upshifts, which I find annoying.
Given that it has the same hybrid (eCVT) system as all Toyota hybrids since 2000, that’s like asking about the shift quality of a 1951 Buick Dynaflow. 🙂
A very comprehensive and interesting review; thanks. One thing you do get with that oversized console is a conventional gearshift lever, a feature I miss on my Odyssey.
A fine review, I’m still driving a 2015 Caravan so I find riding in others’ newer minivans an interesting experience.
I had thought that the rising cost of minivans may be a factor, but I see more young families driving ginormous SUVs these days so it may be more of a cultural / status thing than a cost thing.
We just had a good minivan day last week when we moved DerekD to Sudbury to start an 8 month accounting work term. How long until your daughter starts renting her own minivan to haul a harp?
Very interesting – since we have two minivans, I’m always intrigued by the latest developments within this (increasingly small) slice of the market.
Back in 2018 when we bought our Sedona, our runner-up choice was the Sienna. Largely similar, but the Sienna was more expensive, and my wife and I both found the transmission to be rough and annoying. I guess the transmission problems must’ve gone away…
…but I’m awfully curious about those uncomfortable seats. We do a lot of long-distance driving (traveling 1,000 mi. per day several times per year), so comfortable seats are a necessity. While I know seat comfort is a personal preference, knowing that everyone in your family found the seats uncomfortable isn’t an encouraging sign.
Regarding the console, I also would prefer no console between the seats in a van, but at least the Sienna provides that open area underneath. I often stow my hat, jacket and other stuff between the seats in our (console-less) Odyssey – it’s a nice feature.
With the current cost-of-living increases, I’m hoping to go a few more years before buying a new car, and I’m also hoping that minivans will still be around – and be as functional – when we do.
I’ve only driven a Sienna over a short distance, in Milwaukee, with my cousin-owner looking over the speedometer to make sure I didn’t earn him a ticket. All that, in 2008. So, it equals zero.
But, I have two questions. Are the E-150 and the harp the same units?
I believe something may be off with your sales data. The Sienna sold almost 70k in 2022 and over 107k in 2021. I think GoodCarBadCar if that was your source has bad data (or hasn’t been updated), if you look at it they show only show the 6000+ sales in March of 2022 and zero before or after for all of 2022, which doesn’t seem correct.
Here is Toyota’s published data, Sienna is about 3/4’s of the way down:
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/toyota-motor-north-america-reports-year-end-2022-us-sales-results-301713474.html
Hybrids accounted for 24% of all Toyota/Lexus sales in 2022 which is interesting. Of course it contrasts with someone like Chevy where they had zero hybrid sales since none are offered. Just think if everyone offered a good hybrid product range and everyone’s sales were 24% of the total what that would do to overall fuel mileage. Two makers even make hybrid full size trucks. (Toyota and Ford). The Ram is a VERY mild hybrid and not really representative of most hybrids the way we generally think of hybrids, it is unable to move under battery power alone and the battery-generator serves to fill in the torque curve and smooth it out some for minor efficiency gains mainly in lower speed conditions.
It’s astounding that the Sienna gets over 30mpg, I felt the same way when driving one. For anyone not familiar with modern minivans that just isn’t something that happens normally. A normal minivan will MAYBE hit the low 20’s in optimum conditions and usually well under than in city driving. The Sienna is ONLY available as a hybrid, you can’t even get a non-hybrid version and yet it’s price competitive.
Interesting about the seats in yours, I note yours was an LE, I had no such complaints in the upper-spec one I had. Perhaps the seats differ? Or of course seat comfort is one of the most subjective things as regards automobiles. Then again, I’m not sure if the “reference seat” used in your household, that of the La-Z-Boy in your custom van, can really be termed a normal seat! 🙂
Someone else commented on the cruise control as well. I know you know this but not everyone does – you can alter the “following distance” on adaptive cruise control which can make the shift to slower speed when gaining on someone else less jarring when a longer distance is selected. You can also turn the adaptive part of the CC off completely and just use it like plain old cruise control, which of course means that the driver is the software. I think perhaps adaptive cruise control makes people not be as aware of distances further ahead, when the car decides to slow down and it’s noticeable to the driver, that same driver when using normal cruise or no cruise at all would have already switched lanes or taken their foot off the accelerator. An interesting phenomenon.
And lastly, I think I found the engine a little raucous as well under heavy throttle, the Avalon does the same at times. It IS a four kicking in to provide as much power as it can, in the end I think I decided that a little extra noise at heavy throttle for a short duration until at speed was a good tradeoff for the significant fuel mileage increase although some more sound deadening on Toyota’s part wouldn’t be a bad idea either.
Excellent review!
That is good information about sales volumes. I will update this piece later. When seeing these numbers they seemed low but with the supply and production issues being what they have been, it didn’t phase me too much.
The seats have to differ between the ones we drove. I get the base model having somewhat different seats but there is also a point of being counterproductive. You are quite correct on seats being subjective but these seats were awful.
We know we’ll never find another vehicle with seats like that Ford van. Mrs. Jason was looking for a new couch and I had the rear bench out of the van. I asked her if she simply wanted me to mount that seat to some 2x4s, carry it in the living room, and call it done. She was tempted.
Web sites like Good CarBadCar are not reliable. All manufacturers publish quarterly/annual info on their Press/Investor websites.
Just pull out those Barcoloungers out of the Ford van and have them installed in whatever your next new car is. End of uncomfortable seats issue, which seems to be a somewhat of a recurring theme in your reviews.
I had a Toyota Corolla rental that would slow to a crawl a mile behind someone on the highway. Couldn’t figure out how to alter the distance.
My current vehicle – thankfully I did figure it out. First setting I tinkered with on the car. It’s not a Toyota.
The Sienna was an over-engineered minivan of beauty in its first generation and the Lexus of minivans with the second generation.
Whenever I get one at the dealership, my wife and I have always made it our daily driver for a few weeks. The comfort level of these two generations was absolutely best in class and here in the rust-free parts of the USA they’re still a common sight.
The third generation is a very mixed bag as you pointed out. I currently have a 2011 Limited model in our inventory that we, once again, used when our two young adults (22 and 20) were back from their winter break. After we dropped them back to college, the Sienna was quickly put back at the dealership’s front line for its next owner.
I just didn’t like the cheap materials within the interior for the Limited model. Advanced electronics coupled with Rubbermaid like materials on the door panels and dashboard made it a bit ridiculous as a luxury minivan which it no longer is. Even a base model $25,000 Kia Sorento from the same era has a higher quality interior than this once $50,000 machine.
Toyota went on a ruthless decontenting spree with this generation which, due to high legacy costs at Toyota and changing tastes globally, is making the Sienna the Escalade of the Toyota line-up. Famous for being famous and enough thin plastics to turn off who aren’t automatically turned on to the Toyota brand.
35 miles per gallon on the highway
That’s not even the most impressive part; the Sienna matches this figure in stop and go city driving. Nothing of similar hauling capacity with ICE propulsion comes remotely close to the efficiency on offer in this package. Car and Driver couldn’t flog one below 29mpg observed over multiple tests in multiple Siennas (including a 40,000 long termer that spent nearly half the time on fuel sucking winter tires), so that quite literally is as low as it goes for these.
It is a remarkable accomplishment. Too bad Toyota can’t replicate a similar level of efficiency in their new Tundra hybrid, which uses a totally different hybrid system (conventional automatic transmission with an electric motor spliced in). The gains in its efficiency compared to the non hybrid Tundra are very modest (2 mpg improvement over the non-hybrid) and its rating is 2-3 mpg poorer than the F150 hybrid.
I had been hoping for a more aggressive hybrid system for the Tundra.
I’m curious to see what system will be used in the upcoming Tacoma hybrid which is expected to use a 4 cylinder engine. Agree that the Tundra is a real disappointment … lots of horsepower but not the mpg advantage that I think Toyota could have achieved, which could have been a real game changer for personal-use full sized pickups, more than the F150 Hybrid.
There’s almost zero doubt in my mind that it will be essentially the same system, but likely not with the turbos on the V6. But the basic transmission with the emotor incorporated will be used. What else would they use? The new Tacoma is to share as much with the Tundra as possible. That’s the whole idea; one basic platform for both.
They could use the Turbo 4 hybrid that’s in the ‘23 Lexus RX and the Crown. Supposedly the Tacoma will be all 4’s next time around. Non-hybrid to be the turbo 4 from the Highlander.
My understanding is that Toyota’s aim in the Tundra with its hybrid option was to make it more powerful for towing rather than focusing on fuel efficiency. In my mind that’s a mistake but then again I’m far more interested in a large vehicle that posts stellar fuel economy numbers which I use every day vs towing capability which I never use.
I’m hoping the Tacoma hybrid will be focused differently with its turbo 4 hybrid option (that I believe it will have) but who knows which way they’ll go for now.
My understanding is that Toyota’s aim in the Tundra with its hybrid option was to make it more powerful
Mike Sweers the head engineer for Toyota Trucks has claimed this was the case. The additonal torque certainly would improve towing performance. The fuel economy improvement is somewhat less than what I expected. I am probably in the minority, but MPGs are not that important to me when I shop for trucks. I’d gladly pay for extra fuel to have a truck with better overall long term reliability and durability. This was the case past Tundras, and we will see if this generation does too.
My understanding is that Toyota’s aim in the Tundra with its hybrid option was to make it more powerful
I don’t believe that was the primary aim, which was undoubtedly to eke out a few more mpgs on the EPA cycle. The base power train is rated at 389 hp; the hybrid at 437 hp. That’s a mighty small difference, and frankly insignificant. They’re saying that for PR spin.
The real issue is this: the Tundra’s hybrid system’s e-motor has all of 48 hp; that’s significantly less then the e-motors in this Sienna or any of Toyota’s HSD (eCTV) systems. The Tundra’s system is essentially a mild hybrid system, in that it has very little to no ability to propel the Tundra on the e-motor alone.
The issue is that in order to make a hybrid system like Toyota’s HSD (eCVT), it would require large e-motors and batteries, especially if it was to be used for towing. The reality is that hybrids (and EVs) make rather poor towing vehicles (see the many videos on how short the range becomes when a F150 Lightning tows a trailer).
A different approach would have been to make a high mpg hybrid Tundra with very modest towing capability. That would work fine for the substantial percentage of pickup buyers that don’t tow, or very rarely, or just a light little utility trailer. I would guess that such a system could possibly get very close to 30 mpg. There really are quite a number of folks who just use a pickup like station wagon, and don’t tow, or very rarely.
And sell the non hybrid system for the towers; turn up the boost a bit more if 389 hp isn’t enough. Shouldn’t be that hard…
The peak torque rating though is up by 104lb-ft which would be noticeable and useful for a tower. It may (probably) fills in some torque gaps as well to make it a smoother experience overall too.
But yes, a 30mpg or 30+) Tundra would find a lot of favor in my household, and I believe in lots of others as well. All the hubbub about the Lightning’s towing issues is just that to me (hubbub) as I don’t tow, overall these days I think there are probably more people that don’t tow regularly or extremely rarely or never tow in the half-ton market than those that do so regularly.
Of course; they’ll use a turbo four. I was thinking mainly of the hybrid system, meaning the same transmission.
Thanks for the enjoyable read, Jason. You know that I’m one of the musicians here with a foot in the classical world, and my harp-playing friends all find their best solutions for hauling the instruments around.
Trivia: In places like NYC, where the Musicians’ Union has a strong presence, if you wish to book a harpist for a gig or recording session, you pay the wage plus a specified “cartage” fee (same for drummers hauling their stuff). Much easier to haul one around the sprawling Midwest in a minivan, however.
The Sienna: I’d never guess such mileage could be obtained, not that I’m in the market for one. My next “new” car may well be a hybrid, so I’d better start learning about them now, I figure. Thanks for the useful perspective!
Vans are supposed to be disposable.
My kids and dogs pooped in them.
Then after their diaper changes – threw up.
Why would I spend over $40,000?
I see the Sienna and the Odyssey as vans for seniors.
Buying them for family use is like buying mink trash bags.
Even if you do it for “resale”, you want a used minivan?
These vans are the Oldsmobile Custom Cruisers of minivans.
The only people I knew with those wagons were retirees needing antiques.
One of the clever features of our 2nd gen Prius was the console: it was conventional between the seats, but took advantage of the low floor and dash mounted shifter to leave a gap ahead of the seats sufficient for a reasonably agile and flexible person to slide over to the other side. And due to the low floor, the center bin had room under it for another hidden bin which could be pulled forward into that gap, and was large enough for a full-sized Kleenex box (or several soda cans I suppose). All that has gone away in subsequent generations.
As for the seats, my Tacoma seemed like one of the less comfortable long distance vehicles I’ve owned, until I raised the front and back of the driver’s seat with spacers. This transformed the comfort. There was something about the height and angle which put weight on my thighs in a way that spreads to my entire body. Plus, outward visibility is improved. Newer Tacoma’s have height adjustable driver’s seats but not my 2016 despite being top-of-the-line.
Thanks Jim for mentioning the corrected sales figures. I see a lot of new minivans here, perhaps not like the ‘90’s heyday but still plenty of Sienna’s, Pacifica’s and Odysseys as well as some Kia’s.
Jason, you mention history repeating itself. Well, I have a 2015 Camry Hybrid in the same color as your rental Sienna (Ruby Flare Pearl), and all of the driving characteristics you mention are essentially the same as in my car. It also has a conventional shift lever on the console, not a joy stick like the Prius.
I love adaptive cruise, but I know it’s not for everyone. On my car, the headway from the car in front is adjustable to 3 different settings, plus it can also be set to become fixed (conventional) cruise control (that is, it’s your responsibility to avoid hitting the vehicle in front). I don’t know if the current Sienna still has these capabilities.
I’ve been very happy with the car, and lifetime fuel economy over 78K miles (calculated the old-school way by dividing miles driven by gallons used) has been 42 mpg.
The current Sienna’s Adaptive Cruise Control (as with all other Toyotas) works the same way as yours. The vast majority of manufacturers’ systems work extremely similarly as well if perhaps not exactly the same, the buttons may be slightly different. They can all be overriden to be sued as “old-style” cruise. Most have three (or rarely four) distance settings, Tesla for some reason has seven in their most basic Autopilot which comes with all their cars and is pretty much just Adaptive Cruise Control.
Jason: I know that styling is subjective, but the new Sienna looks like a refugee from some bizarro world (as compared to the old one) in my eyes. Those downward spiking tailights, and humongus “bottom feeder” grille (of which only a small section is actually open) just don’t do it for me. The interior and exterior colors are a nice combo, however! 🙂
BTW: I DESPISE adaptive cruise control, in my view, it and some of the other “safety nannies” are doing what the car’s DRIVER should be doing! And what happens when these untrained drivers are put into a situation where their “nannies” are not present?… but what do I know? I’m just an aging dinosaur, LOL!!
Well, there is the old saying about the number of opinions…
Still, I find adaptive cruise to be one of my favorite features, such as when I’m on a crowded freeway and I come across a slightly slower vehicle in front, it allows me to know exactly how fast the vehicle is going, and I can then decide whether to hold back until a wider passing opportunity arises OR get in the passing lane ASAP.
As for nannies in general, I use them as aids to help me drive better, but never relinquishing my attention to the driving task.
This review was informative and useful. The mileage achieved by this Sienna is amazing, especially since the hybrid is price-competitive with the Chrysler, Hyundai and Kia offerings.
I have rented at least once one of each of the previous generations of Siennas and have always found them comfortable and competent, if not inspiring to drive. In my experience, though, there can be a considerable difference in seat feel, depending on the trim level and upholstery. Not for nothing, Consumer Reports always advises buyers to get the higher trim versions with leather upholstery, which they found to be more supportive across a wider range of body types.
Well, I’m left-handed AND own a hybrid. So I guess I encounter both daily 🙂
I am rather surprised at the low figures for hybrids. I had never looked up the numbers, but my general impression is that there are quite a few on the roads as I see them all of the time. That may be regional I suppose.
That storage area under the “console” in the Sienna…we have a somewhat smaller version of that in my Highlander and It’s always perplexed me. The ability to actually get anything into that space is minimal unless you have one or the other seats slid nearly all the way back, and the likelihood of whatever you put there working its way out and into the driver’s footwell seems strong and unsafe. That area seems particularly pointless in the Sienna you rented.
Also, I agree with all who have said that the screen is distracting and in this case totally unnecessary. My Toyota hybrid provides plenty of info on charging status, economy, and other stuff via the dash led screen or in the instrument cluster (via another small display). I would be seriously bothered by that big tablet-like thing mounted on the dash.
Still, I do lament the fading of minivans, which are shirley diminishing in numbers. I personally don’t have the need for something that big or something that can carry that much, but if I did I’d want a minivan again, versus the crossover something that the market would want me to buy.
Great writeup, Jason!
hybrid sales were at 3.2% of the US Market in 2013 and up to just 5.5% in 2021.
If you include plug-in hybrids, it’s more like 8% in 2022 (through Q3)
The reason hybrids haven’t increased market share more is because EVs have obviously taken over as the popular choice for those looking for lowest CO emission vehicles. EV’s now have a 5+% market share.
The other big reason is that other than Toyota, most manufacturers have either dropped hybrids or are not investing in them or improving them. Toyota’s share of hybrids is huge compared to the rest.
Toyota has caught quite a bit of flak from environmentalists and some politicians for prioritizing hybrids over full EVs and not planning to phase out combustion engines sooner, and that has dissuaded other companies from moving into hybrids. Toyota is now trying to change course and get more EVs to market. Personally, I think Toyota was right that hybrids and PHEVs still have a place during the transition to full electric power, as the grid and infrastructure needed to end ICE production aren’t likely to be in place for several more years, and aren’t yet practical for either rural dwellers who need more range/faster recharging/more places to recharge for their long drives, or urbanites who park on the street and can’t recharge at home. Also, hybrids still tend to be less expensive than similar EVs. Selling large numbers of hybrids for the next few years is better for the environment than selling a tiny percentage of EVs alongside large numbers of IC-only cars, and hybrids are practical for everyone already.
Yes, a hybrid bus may be the most efficient form of transportation on U.S. roads.
Brakes fixed on the Ford E150?
Great review. We are on our second Toyota Hybrid and we are big fans. Fortunately we don’t need a van, but if we did this would be in the top running for us. The fuel economy of this big van is impressive. That split level console is like the one we had in our Prius. We found it useful. I don’t care for adaptive cruise and do not use that on our vehicle; it os easy to bypass on a Toyota. It is too bad about the uncomfortable seats, but I also wonder in an up-level van would have had better seats. We have two Toyota vans in our work fleet and both are considerably thirstier, but have comfortable seats. One is older 2013 with the 3.5L and the 6-speed and it is an excellent drivetrain and comfortable vehicle. The other is a 2018 that has the 8-speed and it is an awful transmission in comparison and it offers very minuscule MPG improvement. I do like both better than our Grand Caravan, which is falling apart quite literally – I had the harmonic balancer explode on me when I was driving it, taking ourthe accessory belt drive.
On the hybirds, each of our Toyota hybrids has suffered from the dreaded droning engine under heavier loads. This is despite the newer one having significantly more power and performance than our old Prius. My dad has a Camry Hybrid and it is the same. It is actually the most irritating attribute in my mind. The e-CVT works well, and I have no issue with it. I like it better than the true CVTs I have driven. While hybrid sales aren’t high overall, as Jim quotes above they are very high for Toyota. If there weren’t supply issues, I bet Toyota would sell even more. We had were told by several dealers to expect a minimum 1 year wait on ours, including the dealer we ordered from. We then lucked out and got it in 5 months. I know many customers aren’t willing to wait and stick with an ICE.
I’m bothered by the trend in minivans to 2nd row seats that can’t be removed or folded down, and full-length front consoles. The latter take away the ability to walk between the front and rear seats, as well as between driver and front passenger seats. That’s always been one of the appeals of vans for me. Without that ability, and unable to carry large cargo items, the Sienna and Carnival are basically crossovers with sliding doors. (I too don’t like the name Carnival which makes it sound like it’s strictly a kid-hauler.
A good way to get rid of this awful bridge consol is to get this one (below pic) that allow to go to the rear seats without going outside , a plus if you want to ‘camperized’ your Sienna . It’s from a co who doing van conversion for people with reduced mobility.
Seems like you keep harping on Toyota Siennas.