It’s often been said that you should never buy a car at night. You should also take Craigslist and Kijiji with more than a grain of salt. It’s really a lesson of what goes unsaid, rather than what is mentioned.
As of the last posting, I had arrived in Vancouver Monday night and got settled in. Next morning, I grabbed the hotel shuttle to the airport, and met my father and father-in-law. They were a bit tired and sore – they only had two flights, but no layover to rest between planes. They found there was very little room in both the CRJ and Boeing 777 – a point that was going to be made light of during our trip – no matter how bad things got, they wouldn’t be as bad as the plane! We caught the shuttle to the car rental shop, and got this:
Pleasantly Suprised!
The options for a rental were limited – a Nissan sedan, and this Kia. I picked it and was instantly impressed. Quiet, roomy, and easy to maneuver in Vancouver’s traffic. We went back to the hotel, dropped off our stuff, and started our search with a quick list. The three we shortlisted for Monday were a 1978 Pontiac Parisienne, a 1984 Volvo 240, and a 1983 Malibu.
Image via Craigslist
The ’79 Parisienne seemed to be the most promising – it looked to be good according to the pictures. We arrived, and were shown the car. The gent backed it out of the garage for us, and the day went downhill from there. The car had started easily enough, but was very noisy, with a lot of valvetrain noise. A lot of the side trim was missing as well and the interior was worn. Given that it was a 305 made during the years they were known for weak camshafts, I decided to give it a pass.
Image Via Craigslist
Next up was the Malibu – We had an address, so we took a drive to see it. The one picture that was not posted online was of the rear of the car – the bumper was hanging off of the back. We all agreed this wouldn’t suffice to get us home in one piece.
Image via Craigslist
Finally, we went to look at the Volvo. This car was easily the best of the day, and yet…it had been sitting for over a year at the lot. Someone had had it out on a test drive before me, and we waited for it to return. It wasn’t very impressive. The power steering line had sprung a leak, and the fluid was all gone. This didn’t stop them from driving it, though. It was also backfiring through the intake when you’d give it the gas. We all sat in it and agreed it was way too small. We took a pass on this one, and all Volvos as well.
The next day, we picked two more possibilities and a backup…a 1991 Honda Accord wagon, 1979 Buick LeSabre, and a 1998 Ford Crown Victoria.
Image via Craigslist (Not the car I looked at, but similar)
We went to see the Honda first, and things looked up immediately. No rust, a nice dark blue colour, sunroof – and comfortable enough for the trip. We went to go for a drive, and the owner let me know the brake booster had failed on the car. There was enough reason there to turn down this car. I wasn’t going to drive it over the Rockies with a failed booster, and I wasn’t interested in getting it repaired.
Image via Craigslist
It turned out that the LeSabre was very close to the Honda, so we went and looked at it. The body was in mint condition, the engine had been recently rebuilt, and the interior was good. We took it for a drive…and it wouldn’t come out of second gear. Remembering the same thing had happened to me years earlier on another GM car, I looked under the car, and the hose going from the steel line to the vacuum modulator had dry rotted off. The owner had some new line, I replaced it, and it worked really well. We discussed price, and he’d only come off his $3500 price by $200. He was selling it for his parents, so I understood his reasoning. We did like the car – but I wanted to have a look at the Crown Vic in order to have an option.
I wasn’t really considering one – but as time was running short, I’d remembered that they were comfortable, reliable cars well regarded here at Curbside Classic. This one was intriguing – it looked good in pictures, and its $1995 price was well within my budget. We arrived at the dealer selling it, and were surprised at the condition of the car. 4 good tires, good paint with only a little rust ahead of the rear wheels, 178,000 KM and a basic engine/transmission warranty. I couldn’t turn it down. He told me he had to replace the windshield first, and then I’d be able to take it. We made a deal, I paid for the car, and we left to kill some time while the windshield was replaced.
We got the call that the car was ready, and we returned to the dealership. He’d even had it washed, waxed, vacuumed, and blown bulbs replaced for us. We couldn’t get over the service we received for a $2000 car!
We managed to return the rental and get back to the hotel in rush hour traffic. We relaxed the rest of the evening in preparation for the long drive ahead…
Very nice! Is that an LX Sport? I’ve never seen one in the metal.
It’s an LX – how do I tell if it’s a sport?
Dual exhausts, floor shift, I’ve seen some with actual “Sport” badges but not all.
Truly rare would be a Grand Marquis LSE which is the same equipment on a Mercury Grand Marquis.
It does have duals and air suspension, but no floor shift. I don’t know if there is an option it doesn’t have.
It may be both… My ’88 T-Bird (the 5.0, not the a Turbo Coupe – I had both at one point) was an LX, but it had all of the Sport options as well. It was completely loaded. Where an LX option was at conflict with a Sport option, the LX option always superseded the Sport option. This 4.6 (I assume) may’ve been the same way. Nice looking car Marc… Good Luck!
The sport will have buckets, console, and floor shift.
The LX-Sport didn’t exist in 98. Other key things that can identify it from a distance are the monochrome exterior, ie the Grille and trim on the taillights are body color and they have 5 spoke 17″ wheels instead of the lacy spoke 16″.
What you have is a car equipped with the HPP package which gives you stiffer springs and sway bars, better rear gears, and the twice pipes.
One thing that it doesn’t have is the sunroof.
Was the sunroof available in ’98? For some reason I thought the (extraordinarily rare) sunroof option appeared in 2003.
I asked my LX Sport to pose for some pictures this morning to help folks identify its kind. The easiest way to spot a Sport from a distance is the body-colored trim, such as the grille and trim strip under the tail lights. Also, the Sports had 17″ wheels — however all of these can be easily modified on another Crown Vic.
…what’s not as easy to modify is the interior. Here is the interior with the front console and floor shifter.
Incidentally, the Crown Vic is an excellent choice for a long-distance road car. I can’t think of a better road car. Enjoy!
Plan on driving it west anytime soon???
I’m still thinking about it, Jason — as long as Time and Wallet approve. Not great odds, I know, but I’ll do my best!
I agree wholeheartedly – we made it without any major aches or pains.
The other guys here have figured it out, but the driver side exhaust said duels and the wheels jog my memory from some brochure I saw years ago. For some reason I thought they were part of a package.
I’ve never been a huge fan of the styling on the aero Victorias, but yours is put together about as nicely as they come. Great find.
From the opening photo of this post, I was initially convinced the white Cadillac was your new ride.
The twice pipes and those wheels indicate the presence of the HPP, or Handling & Performance Package.
I thought the same thing from the first photo, that the white Caddy was your newly purchased ride, only to scroll to the next photo and think, ‘Oh no, not a Hip-Hop Hamster car! That’s no Curbside Classic!’ My apologies for dissing your rental, as you apparently liked it. ;o)
Congratulations!
Thanks!
Thought it was supposed to be over 30 years old…? Not that it isn’t a nice car, but sort of defeats the purpose of your original post.
I wanted it to be, but there just wasn’t anything that I saw that I’d trust on a 6000-plus KM drive.
Welp, good luck to you.
Too bad about the Malibu. Handsome bastard of a car!
I just turned a white Kia Soul back into Enterprise. The gas mileage was great and the sound system was easy to use. However, my back and neck were screaming after a four hour drive, and I hated the passenger-side blind spot.
I was disappointed too. Once I saw that back bumper, it was game over. That was the signal of the beginning of the end for them around here on the east coast.
I had one of those 305 Chevy engines in an Olds Cutlass. The car was so good looking that I took a chance on the engine. The camshaft did eventually fail, but it was a fairly easy DIY repair. I loved that Cutlass.
I think trying to find a 30+ year-old car that could make a cross-country trip was an impossible situation.
In my price range and time frame it was. When we saw the Crown Vic we couldn’t turn it up.
Done that trip TWICE in my 81 Corolla… I’ve noticed there are no Toyotas on that list of potential candidates.
Other than rust issues(depends on the car), older Toyota drive trains seem to put some newer cars to shame, as far as dependability.
Never underestimate the power of a vintage Yota. 😉
If it was just me, I’d have considered them. I would have loved a first-gen Tercel, I got my license on one. But my FIL wasn’t going to be comfortable in it for any amount of time…he has a bad back from mining coal.
Nope. Come down here and have a look at my cars. With the exception of a 88 and 94 Taurus which aren’t old enough, I’d take anyone of the others across country. Like my 79 T-bird I bought back in 02 for $900. Even the AC still works. Or my 76 Grand Marquis I bought also in 02 for $700. Or my 74 Impala, etc., etc. None of those cars have had a single breakdown since I’ve owned them. It just that today everyone has a inflated sense of value towards them. In other words they want more than their worth. Glad I bought mine several years ago when that wasn’t the case. Shoot, back in 04 I bought a running driving 83 buick lesabre wagon at the impound auction for $75. And I was bidding against a junk yard!
It was a hard deadline to meet. Too bad you couldn’t find something more vintage but they are hard to find at your price point. Even around here good cars don’t turn up everyday. I would have preferred to have a little more shakedown time. The Crown Vic is a good choice, I’ve put a lot of miles on this gen, really a nice quiet ride. Yours looks great too. Have a safe fun trip.
It was. I had a few good candidates lined up, but they sold before I made it to Vancouver. I only had a small window to get a car, so I picked the best I could find. We have been pleasantly suprised, as you’ll read in the updates.
Gorgeous colour – and sounds like that dealer was one in a million!
We were absolutely floored how helpful they were. Really, everyone we met have been great on the trip.
Definitely a great color. Looks like the Electric Currant Red that was offered on the Lincoln Mark VII SE, but I imagine the name was different (and it might not be identical anyway). Also those headlights look like they’ve been replaced, or were very well taken care of and polished – the originals tend to oxidize and haze badly.
Toreador Red Metallic, the same paint that I’ve got on my 2000 Mercury Grand Marquis. The headlamp assemblies could very well have been replaced, a cursory search for the parts shows them at under $25 each.
The ICBC report showed a few claims for a few hundred dollars. I’m guessing they rear-ended someone – there are a few paint chips gone of the nose cone and bumper – the nose cone was white underneath, and the bumper was a different shade of red. I’m guessing they replaced the headlights , the right one is slightly crooked.
Not really. The LeSabre probably would have been fine.
The price was the killer on the LeSabre. If the Crown Vic hadn’t been as good as it was I would have went with it.
Should have pointed out the transmission issue, low balled an offer then fixed it after! 🙂
I felt bad for the guy. He was semi-retired himself, and was selling his parents’ house and possessions in order to pay for his mother’s nursing home bills.
That being said, if he had have said yes to $3K, I would have been driving it.
Orrin, I know he said he wanted a 30-year-old plus car but circumstances changed. And besides, the Crown Victoria’s antediluvian underpinnings mean its a more retro ride than other cars sold in the late 1990s in North America.
Marc, I think it’s more important that you safely get across the country without having any breakdowns or scares. And as much as I don’t care for Crown Vics of this era, I must say that I can see the appeal for a cross-country road trip and yours is a beauty! Love the colour and love the price!
Lol guess not.
Me too – I was never struck on them either, but remember them having a good reputation here. And it lived up to its reputation too – remarkably.
At a little over 105,000 miles on an 18 year old car it is a low mileage car at roughly 6,000 miles a year. The 1979 Buick LeSabre I would love to have but the Crown Vic at $1,300 less was definitely the better buy. Hope you have a pleasant and uneventful(no problems carwise) trip home. I admire your adventuresome spirit in a going on an adventure like the one you are currently on. I would love to do the same thing but age and physical disabilities prevent me from doing so. I guess I will have to live vicariously through your posts. BTW my wife’s 89 Ford Tempo has all of 94,000 miles, about 3,500 miles a year. It is the only car I have owned in the last 25 years with less than 100,000 miles.
That was the spirit of the trip – The car was secondary to doing the drive – we all wanted to do it, and while they were still firm and able to do it. We said the heck with it and just did it.
Vancouver has cars that are rust free vs. salt contaminated cars east of Hope BC. Almost any mechanical repair is easier than fixing rust.
Yes, times a thousand. We saw so many cars in Vancouver that we haven’t seen in Nova Scotia in years it was nuts. I think i was 5 when I last saw a Datsun 510 wagon here, but there was one in Vancouver at Princess Auto. Mazda 323’s, Corollas, etc…
Loved reading this story, thanks for sharing!
The leading photo had me fooled for a minute there, I thought you had bought a Cadillac, hehehe.
Thanks for the comment!
I just wanted to find a picture that didn’t lead immediately to the answer.
I wish the Honda wagon had worked out – although they were never that plentiful in SoCal, I’ve always liked that body style, with the handsome and functional greenhouse.
The color on the Ford is really attractive. Nice to hear there are still good people doing business in such a conscientious manner.
Me too. I’d have ended up with it if the brakes had have been fine. I really like the look of them, and I have a weak spot for station wagons.
Nice find Marc! It’s too bad the older wheels didn’t work out as planned, but you certainly seemed to find a very nice substitute within the moment. I myself am not a big fan of these (best friend also has a ’98, driven it lots), but at the price and condition you grabbed it at, you may very well be able to flip it and get a few bucks back to try again. Or just enjoy it, since you did seem to get an amazing deal on it. If it were me, I’d rip out the rear tint ASAP, and just roll 🙂
We stopped at Princess Auto and bought two scrapers and some goo-gone, and had it off that night!
The Crown Vic is certainly the right choice as it will be very comfortable on your trip. To help get the best fuel consumption pump up all your tires to the max cold rating and take it easy on the go pedal once your’re out on the prairies. In fact make good use of the cruise control whenever you can on straight pavement. If you’re not too loaded down the Crown Vic might do very well on gas.
The LeSabre would have been a nice ride but probably somewhat of a risk on the open road as its a little older. Too bad about the Honda it would have been ideal had it not been for the brake booster.
We were loaded with luggage, and the three of us aren’t small. The car averaged between 22-26 MPG on the whole trip. Pretty impressive.
You made the right choice a HPP equipped Panther is a far better road car than any of the other options with a far better ride and handling. The fuel economy will be better than all but the Accord and it won’t be that far behind.
What about the Volvo 240? It’s a 4 banger.
There’s no way a V8 Panther can get better gas mileage than a 4 cylinder… Unless, that 4 banger is way out of a tune or I’m missing something?
Both the Crown Vic and Volvo are rated at 22 mpg highway according to the EPA. The Volvo is rated at 18 city vs. 15 city for the CV.
From my experience with 4.6 liter powered Panthers, it is not difficult to surpass this 22 mpg rating. The more aerodynamic ones, from 1992 to 1997, were even better as driving a ’97 CV with four people from Cape Girardeau, Missouri, to Roanoke, Virginia, netted an average 26 mpg for me.
Yes, I used to hit 24-26 mpg on road trips in my 93 CV. A fairly tall axle, lockup torque converter and really good aerodynamics make these incredibly efficient for their size, expecially for flatland interstate travel.
Impressive to the degree that the aero Panthers improved fuel economy over the box Panthers. I don’t recall my ’87 Grand Marquis being anywhere near as efficient.
How did your recently departed box Grand Marquis compare?
Not nearly as good. Although the car’s owner (my ultra-thrifty son) used to be able to eke 23 or 24 out of it at a steady 65 on flat terrain. Me, I think I would see 21 or 22 with normal highway speeds. Which was not all that much better than the 17 mpg I used to get out of my 67 Galaxie 500 with the tall axle and the 2 barrel 390 (and which was a lot more pleasant powertrain to live with, as I believe you know. 🙂 )
I averaged just shy of 23mpg from the last tankful in my ’05 P71 w/3.27 gears.
It’s been fantastic in my eyes – it’s never dropped below 21 MPG on the trip. I can’t get over how good it is on gas.
The Volvo 240 is a heavy car and that 4 cylinder engine in it always seems to be straining to move that car.
On my 1990 240DL, I could never get more then 18mpg out of it and I took great care of the thing.
My late, unlamented 164E struggled to get 16mpg.
They don’t call those era Volvos Bricks for their wonderful aerodynamics which is a large factor in hwy MPG, plus a wagon body style is even more un-aero than a sedan. With pure gas, don’t know if they have the almost universal E10 we get south of the border 26 mpg is doable on the hwy even at today’s speeds.
My mother-in-law always complains that our Panthers get better mpg than her 4cyl PT cruiser and that is both city and hwy. So yeah a Panther can get better hwy mpg than some 4cyl cars.
plus a wagon body style is even more un-aero than a sedan
Wagons are intrinsically more aerodynamic than sedans, as the air flow over the long body is significantly better, and the abrupt rear is rather Kamm-like. Trunked notchback sedans are pretty much the worst of any car shape, which is why they’ve mostly disappeared.
Volvo’s own Cd numbers bear this out: The 240 sedan has a Cd of 0.47; the 245 wagon’s is 0.45.
And yes, those are significantly higher than the 0.36 or so that the CV had. But that’s just the Cd; I’m not sure of their corresponding frontal area which is essential to calculate total aero drag. But I’m pretty sure the CV is still well below the Volvo.
Care to cite the source that shows the Volvo drag numbers?
I think that you are confusing the cut off nature of the Kamm Tail with the actual physics behind it.
“While the realities of fluid dynamics dictate that a teardrop shape is the ideal aerodynamic form, Kamm found that by cutting off / flattening the streamlined end of the tear at an intermediate point, and bringing that edge down towards the ground, he could gain most of the benefit of the teardrop shape without incurring such a large material, structural, and size problem. The airflow, once given the suggestion of the beginning of a turbulence-eliminating streamlined teardrop tail, tended to flow in an approximation of that manner regardless of the fact that the entire tail was not there. This is called the Kamm effect.[9]
There is controversy about the proportions of a true Kamm tail. According to the classic definition the tail should be cut off where it has tapered to approximately 50% of the car’s maximum cross section,[10] which Kamm found represented a good compromise—by that point the turbulence typical of flat-back vehicles had been mostly eliminated at typical speeds. Thus a minivan is not a Kammback, and neither are numerous cars that have truncated tails.”
So the cut off portion hurts the aero vs a full tear drop but by picking the right point to chop it off you can gain most of the benefits with out having to drag around the full tear drop and the impracticality of it.
Fact is that an abrupt cut off really messes up the air flow. For proof just look to the local hwy and you’ll see more and more trucks equipped with the Trailer Tail. http://www.stemco.com/product/trailertail/ they claim a 5%+ improvement in MPG by following the principals that Kamm figured out oh so long ago.
Yes the abrupt rear window of a tradtional 3 box sedan is not great aero but it is still better than most traditional wagons. Volvo does do much more tapering of the sides and roof than many which undoubtly helps them.
However when you go to fueleconomy.gov and start looking up vehicles with wagon and 3 box sedan configurations you won’t find the wagon getting better mpg. Some will be the same while in other cases the wagon is worse.
Further proof which is appropriate considering the vehicles we are discussing is comparing the 6 window body shell of the 92-7 CV vs the formal roof line of the 92-97 GM. With the old unadjusted numbers the CV beat the GM despite the bulk of the vehicle being the same. Having had a 92 CV with the HPP’s 3.23 gears and a 93 GM with the 3.08 gears concurrently, I can tell you from experience that the GM got about 1 mpg less on long hwy trips.
So yes you are correct that the return of the fastback styling that everyone seems to like to call a 4dr coupe is due to the greater aero dynamics of the tapering roof line that gets the air moving in the right direction as you can see in the wind tunnel pictures at the link above.
Wow, after reading all that I’d definitely prefer a Shelby Cobra Daytona Coupe over a 240 wagon to get the true Kamm tail.
However, Marc bought the Aero Panther, which would look ridiculous either as a wagon or with a Kamm tail. Or both.
You think I just pulled that out of my ass? Man, you really are stubborn…
Yes, these are from Volvo directly: http://www.mech.kth.se/courses/5C1211/Externals_2012/Ljundberg_2012_1.pdf The specific numbers are in the attached page below.
Notice too that the 760 sedan has a Cd of 0.44 and the 765 wagon only 0.40. That’s a very substantial drop.
I’m a bit surprised, frankly, that you would try to challenge me on what seems all-too obvious. Do you just like to argue? Even before you consider the facts? A wagon’s aerodynamic superiority to a notch sedan seems extremely obvious and intuitive to me. I only looked up these numbers to support what I already knew to be the case.
I didn’t say that a wagon makes a perfect Kammback; but it’s a lot better than what happens to the air right behind a notched roof, over the trunk. If you don’t believe me, go dig up a wind tunnel image of a trunked sedan. Massive turbulence, especially when the back window is as vertical as on a Volvo.
Did you actually look at all the numbers on that page you posted?
Take a look at the case where they list the same vehicle in both wagon and sedan form for the same model year.
I’ll do you a favor it is as the bottom of that page where they show the drag of a 1995 S40 at 0.34 and the drag of the 1995 V40 at 0.36. In the other cases like the 240 vs 245 they are different model years and in that case the 245 was after they had some time to react to the first fuel crisis and the consumer demand for fuel economy.
So yes the information you refer to does prove that there are aerodynamic differences between a wagon and sedan and that it is the sedan that has lower drag than a wagon when other variables are the same.
The study does do a good job of showing how important aerodynamics are to hwy fuel economy with the aero drag accounting for 53% of the total fuel consumption at 90kph. While at the average speed of 33kph in the EU combined cycle where aero drag accounts for only 26% of the fuel consumption. It is disappointing that they don’t state if this is for a particular vehicle or an average of vehicles.
OMG, Eric; you just can’t let it go, can you?
I specifically referred to a “notched” sedan in comparison to a wagon. The 240 and 760 are highly “notched” (near vertical rear windshield). The 1995 S40 is not at all so. It’s semi-fastback, like most new(er) sedans, and a style that was first popularized by the 1981 Audi 100/5000, with its excellent aerodynamics. Which is why almost every sedan since then has adopted that flowing rear shape, and then some, for its improved aerodynamics. There’s a reason they call it “fastback”.
There is absolutely no external difference between a 1974 and 1975 Volvo 200 series, as in anything that would make the slightest difference aerodynamically. You’re grasping at non-existent straws. And there is also no difference externally between the 1982 and 1985 760 series. The revised and more aerodynamic front end on the 700 series came later. You just struck out two more times.
Seriously, Eric, don’t you have anything better to do today than waste my time? Is it because it’s raining and you’re bored? But this is getting tedious and boring. And embarrassing. The initial issue was about the Volvo 240 wagon’s aerodynamics, and I gave ample proof of its superiority to the sedan. The rest is…garbage. Give it up already. I do have some actual work to do today…
It’s not as clear cut between wagons and sedans…
It depends on how well designed the sedan is. If the backlight angle is shallow enough to prevent flow separation then the sedan will be better because it will have a smaller wake than the wagon. Old Volvo sedans were very bad in this respect tough, the backlight was almost vertical.
Rui: You just said what I said, in abbreviated form. 🙂
Sorry, I must admit I didn’t read everything.
I would like to add a note of explanation as to my rather curt tone of voice in this interchange. Eric (“Scoutdude”) is one of a very small (and decreasing) handful of commenters who perpetually makes “statements of fact” that he has not taken the time to fact check. Since I feel that the site is compromised by erroneous “facts” like this that others will assume to be true, I feel it necessary to respond to correct them. And unlike Eric, I take the time to make sure that they are fact checked.
Unfortunately, Eric is one of those folks who simply can not accept that they’re ever wrong. Which means he always escalates by throwing out obfuscating “facts”, in an effort to disprove or diminish mine. Which means I have to correct him again.
Or he tries to play “gotcha” with me, if he thinks I’ve made a mistake, as he did here too.
He has done this here repeatedly over the years with me, and never admits to being wrong. The whole point of CC is to learn, which I do constantly, and I readily admit when I’ve been wrong and learned something new. That really is the point…
I’m really not interested in these silly internet pissing matches, but I have no choice but to defend myself when someone tries to claim I’m wrong, especially when it’s something I’ve already fact checked. And I make a point not to leave comments that come across as facts unless I’m 100% certain of them or have fact-checked them. Or admit otherwise. That explains my curt tone with him. I would not use this tone with 99.9% of the commenters.
It’s perfectly human to make a mistake in the comments, but it’s not ok to make a habit of coming here year-in and year-out on a slow day at the office and leaving numerous comments with great certitude, but lacking factual basis, and then not acknowledging the facts if they prove him wrong. Inevitably once he’s been definitively proven wrong, he slinks away.
After years of tussling with Eric, my patience has long worn out. He’s not here to participate in a sincere effort to learn and share facts and experiences. As such, his comments are not welcome anymore, unless he can stick to facts, or make it clear that he’s expressing an opinion, and not a fact. There is a difference.
My apologies to the rest of you that had to witness this. Almost all of the troublesome commenters have left by now. I’m burned out on dealing with them anymore.
No worries, Paul.
I’ve been in that hot seat 😛
I must admit I read through the whole exchange with interest. I didn’t think you needed to apologise to us Paul, you were stating facts. My interest in sedan vs wagon aerodynamics began with the Ford Sierra when I was a kid. They were such a strange shape for a mainstream family car. I thought the wagon had a marginally better Cd than the 5-door hatch, but can’t find evidence to support this. The XR4i was lowest, but that was due to the biplane rear spoiler and the lower-body cladding. It’d be interesting to know the Cd of the Mk2 Sierra sedan vs hatch vs wagon (like my own magnificent Ghia estate!).
Regardless of Cd, in the Sierra’s case the wagons had substantially better stability than the hatches in crosswinds – a condition often overlooked when discussing aerodynamics.
And please don’t burn out Paul – you do such a stellar job. So many folks like me really appreciate what a great place CC is to come to, and it’s probably not celebrated often enough, but it’s all down to your vision, direction and leadership. I’ll have a (streamlined!) glass of wine to you and CC tonight! 🙂
Paul, no need to apologise.
Ultimately, we are able to enjoy Curbside Classic because YOU created it, YOU put hours and hours into it every week, so ultimately I’m happy to follow your rules for commenting and help you keep this the best site on the web.
Unrelated to Scoutdude and this discussion, something I should point out that a lot of Curbsiders don’t know about are the trolls that visit the site and post inappropriate comments that Paul and the rest of us have to delete. Including a certain former regular commenter who comes back intermittently purely to take potshots at Paul and contribute absolutely nothing to discussions, even though he has a lot of valuable information he could share if he wasn’t constantly belittling people. Like other sites, we suffer from trolls on occasion but we try to keep this place civil, friendly and informative. Paul does most of that grunt work and has been doing so for several years. So, Scott, I’ll be raising a glass of wine to Paul and Curbside Classic tonight, as well.
Cheers Paul
A bit late to the party, but based on tangential observations, I doubt a well used Volvo with a red block will get better mileage than a CV with a Mod or even a Windsor motor. The Volvo B230F is a stout piece, but it’s anything but fuel efficient. The turbo red block in my 940 was EPA rated at 19-22, and I’ve never seen better than 23 on the highway. 17 mpg is a way of life around town. Naturally aspirated variants are not much better.
Paul already went into the superior aerodynamics of the aero CV, but its also worth mentioning that the CV – any CV, has a much taller final-drive ratio, making for a more relaxed highway cruiser. The Volvos have fairly short gearing to get off the line, but at modern highway speeds, they’re quite wound up. At 75 mph, my940 is pulling 3100 RPM. Doesn’t make for a pleasant long-distance hauler, nor an economical one.
Not a direct comparison, but many, many moons ago I owned a Thunderbird Sport. The 5.0 had similar power to the Volvo, (155hp vs. 162) and the weight is not much different. That T-Bird was rated 16-22 by the EPA, but on the highway, I’d regularly see 24-25, while around town I’d average 19. More efficient aerodynamics, much taller gearing, and an engine that didn’t have to work as hard to deliver what it had, allowed a 5.0 liter engine to run more efficiently than a four banger with less than half the displacement!
Looks a good car, and in that colour I can see the temptation.
I wonder if it was the same wheel or just the same design that was used on the Fairlane Concorde special edition at the same time in Australia?
Good luck with the trip.
Probably the best of the bunch shown sure looks nice in red, and no fixes required just get in and drive, good choice.
Nice car, but you’re way to honest to buy a used car, fixing the transmission first and then make a offer….. 😉
I have to live with my conscience! I just couldn’t do it! 🙂
Nice job Marc. I’d been a bit worried that you’d driven off a cliff or something.
Crown Vic is indeed a good tool for the job. It’s newer than I would have liked, but that also means you had more success with the trip than I would have experienced.
And you could do worse than to go through life being honest. Well done…
Thanks Doug – I’d hoped to update nightly, but reality got in the way. We drove while the daylight was good, and by the time we’d gotten settled in I was ready for sleep. It takes me 2-3 hours to write a recap it seems. Dad had to be back for Monday for work (his business partner leaves for Florida Tuesday, and didn’t want to leave ourselves short for time.
The car has been admirable in its duty! Much better than I thought!
Like DougD, I too was concerned something horrible had happened. And while I was really hoping to see you in an R-body Plymouth, I understand how these things go.
I know automotive markets vary considerably, but you got a screaming deal on your Ford. And those 4.6 liter engines are one of the best all around engines of that era so you are set for another half-million kilometers.
I liked the Gran Fury, but I’d have probably blown it up trying to get over the Rockies!
Great choice. The Volvo would have left you poor and walking, and certain Honda’s have no seal between the master cylinder and booster. If master cylinder leaks, booster fills up with brake fluid, booster fails, and engine smokes like it has a blown head gasket with an odd smell.
And the candy soft Chevy camshafts also spilled over into their marine engines. Repaired many that were built in ’79-81. And you can’t just replace cam and lifters, oil pan has to come off and be cleaned, because the iron dust in the oil forms a bearing eating lapping compound.
I think it was well on its way to camshaft heaven. It was the “tickiest” SBC I ever heard.
Panther Love for the win. Looks nice, can’t wait to see the next chapter in the story.
Agree with some others that the right older car might have made for a better story, but you found a really nice one, and for a really good price. One of these Panthers with the proper tire and suspension setup is a joy for the kind of trip you will be making.
You have proved my theory – that you can never find the right older car when you actually need one. That is when you find several out there that don’t make the cut for one reason or another. Had you been in the city for a two day stretch of meetings, you would have found the perfect car parked at a meter with a for sale sign in the window.
And now that you have bought the CV, really great and perfectly priced cars from the 60s and 70s will be coming at you from every direction. Thus sayeth Murphy.
That was 100 percent my experience. There was a Regal sedan, Cutlass Cruiser, and even a Chrysler Town and Country I really liked – and all sold before I got out there.
Good choice.
I honestly think I would have chosen the Crown Vic also. The Volvo is pre-1986 and thus had the engine wire harness degrading issue which would have added to the electrical nightmare that these cars could become(mine never stranded me but it had a lot of little electric issue that I had to keep fixing)
The Malibu would have gotten a pass from me even if it is pristine. the 78-83 Malibu is a turd and unless the THM200C was swapped out, then it most likely is just waiting to fail on you. As much as I wax nostalgic about that generation of the Malibu(a 1980 was my first car) it still was a bucket of Shit.
The 79 leSarbe looks nice. I assume it had that big analog clock on the dash? My grandfather owned one and I loved sitting in that car and staring at that clock.
However that being said, my days of daily driving a car with a carb are long over, dealing with them can be such a pain in the ass, the saving grace on this one is that it is pre CCC, so there is no Rochester electric quadra-junk carb on top of that engine.
The CV looks nice and it is fuel injected for a quick start at any time of the day. Plus parts are easy to find for it.
Of course if I could have swung it, I would have gotten the Kia Soul, like you I am very impressed with them also. Heck I am impressed with Kia and Hyundai in general.
Enjoy your car.
The insulation was flaking off the harness in parts. It was carbureted, which was suprising for an 83…I was bummed, because it was in near mint condition, and it was not comfortable. It was even assembled in Halifax, NS – it would have been a homecoming of sorts.
The Lesabre was nice…but it was not leaving me with any cushion at all if something happened, and it hadn’t been run on the road in – I think – 2 years.
Carb’d? Wow. My friend had a 1980 242GT (with the ‘Lambda’ CIS) for about 15 years that I spent a lot of time wrenching on. Like replacing bare alternator wiring underneath the front of the engine, on my back in an apartment complex parking lot at about 20 degrees F. As much as I like me a vintage brick, you did well to skip that Volvo.
Another vote for you having made the right, if not completely vintage-lust-satisfying, choice.
Looks to me like you made a fine choice. A grand cheaper and 19 years newer than the LeSabre. Looks like a well optioned model as well, with the keyless entry, nice wheels and handling package. Good luck, but if repairs are needed there are plenty of cheap parts for these around, as they made millions of them.
May the road rise to meet you .
-Nate
It’s a shame you couldn’t find something more interesting, but that’s a really nice Panther. Glad you didn’t buy the Accord – at least the Crown Vic is old fashioned, if not actually that old.
BTW my European mind is blown that anyone can describe a Volvo 240 as “way too small”!
Millions of people crossed an ocean to escape “small”… 🙂
They might have been escaping one thing or another but small wasn’t it. Smallpox? 😉
Seriously though, what is it too small for? Towing a yacht? Operating a municipal bus service?
Overcrowding, esp. as the industrial revolution accelerated, was a determining factor.
Uh, in my family’s case it was more like small economic opportunity, or small food portion.
240 isn’t small in Canada. And we’re the bigger country 🙂
I concede that you can’t get 300 million people in a Volvo 240.
I really don’t want to start an off-topic debate, but to imply there just wasn’t enough space is misleading. Surely migrants were escaping mistreatment by their own ruling class more than “smallness”. People were kicked off their farmland in my country, ending up in Canada in huge numbers, and in overcrowded industrial cities like Glasgow, by design.
And you can comfortably fit 3 adults in a Volvo 240, no matter how narrow it might be. 5 might be a different story. I’ve ridden in the back of a Crown Vic and a Volvo 240 wagon, and I didn’t notice much difference. I will admit I’m 5’11” and 11 stone (work that one out) and I don’t know if the 3 in question are giants, but the Crown Vic isn’t all that spacious given its overall bulk.
(To be clear, for this trip I would have chosen the Ford too, or just maybe gambled on the Pontiac.)
Volvo 240s can be a bit narrow inside, not to mention that lack a lot of basic creature comforts (arm rests, cup holders, tachometers, map lights).
Right now, 2000 loonies = US$1380, so I’d say that’s a deal!
I’m curious–how high does the speedometer go? I ask because a couple of years ago I rode in a Crown Vic taxi in Seattle whose speedometer went up to 160 mph. I assume that the police version of the car could approach this speed, and Ford figured it was simpler to put that speedo in all CVs.
That Seattle area taxi was almost certainly a retired P71. The P71s had their speed limiter set well below 160 mph, in the 120 mph range depending on year and exact equipment.
Yes when they came out the aero Vics all had the high speed dial while the GMs with the different dash and traditional strip speedo only went to 85 mph. The civilian version of the CV speedo did lack the “certified” label even if it was otherwise the same. Opt for the digital dash on the GM and you did get a 1/2 digit so it could display speeds of 100mph and above, though part of that was also probably more due to it being switchable with the push of a button to display kph as well.
Early aero Vics topped 130 mph in MSP testing with some testing in the mid 130. I know the 03-11 CVPI were limited to 130 mph with 3.27 gears. Even so they don’t seem to have much more in them at those speeds. A 3.55 geared car was governed at around 120 IIRC.
Same decision I would have made. Curious what engine that LeSabre had. I’m going to guess the Pontiac 301 being that it was rebuilt and all. The rotted vacuum line is such a common thing with the good old THM 350 transmission and I have seen countless ads with cars like this claiming it had a shot transmission when all that was needed was a new piece of vacuum line and maybe a good service.
The Panther should serve you well and contrary to belief by some are one of many American made cruisers that can effortlessly go over 200K plus when properly serviced and cared for. I would for sure service that transmission if the fluid looks or smells the least bit burnt.
It had the Buick 350 in it. Apparently it burned 2 holes in the pistons!
Must have had intake runner vacuum leaks leading to a lean burn and high combustion temperatures – also probably due to rotted vacuum lines (some of which may have been right into intake ports).
Hell of a nice car for $2000. Fantastic deal if the price converts to $1380 US dollars. And a new windshield to boot. That dealer seems to be a good, fair one. Totally understand why you passed on the Le Sabre, considering the $1300.00 difference. From the description and the picture, if that’s the actual car it would have been a good choice if determined to stick to the 30 year old limit.
Have a good trip, hope the Crown Vic serves you and family well.
Nice Panther!!! Ya done good!
I’m not sure if you plan to do a bit of sight seeing, or if you plan to take 1 to Calgary, but if you take 1, then near Yoho National Park, there is a spiral tunnel through the mountains to get the railroad up over the pass. With any luck a train might be passing through. I have seen at least one train (maybe two, can’t remember) without waiting long. There is also a waterfall not far away.
Agree the spiral tunnel is a must see.
Stop at the viewpoint and read the history of the tunnel.
Nice new Vic! You got lucky on the windshield, where I reside most owners tend to pass that bill onto the next buyer,
I dont blame you for turning Volvos down, 240s are too small inside, and a 7-9 series would rattle the entire road trip, loose power to the guage cluster, wont have AC, quit blowing air over 40mph, fry a fuel pump relay or lay it’ll headliner on your head).
The rest sounded like typical trouble prone beaters.
I couldnt believe it when he said he had to fix the windshield before I could buy it, and not up the price. You have to figure on the windshield being around $400, plus they changed the oil as well and replaced some burned out bulbs. I’d spent $21000 on my F150 when I bought it used and didn’t get the treatment I did on that $1995 used car special!!
That’s a great looking Crown Vic, and only $2000 from a dealer!? Wow. Those are my favorite factory wheels too. I have wanted to do something like you got to do for a long time. I live in Georgia and what my wife and I want to do is fly to Origan and there is a guy that has a dealership there that is full of CC cars! I’m sure some of you know who I’m talking about from his eBay adds. One Owner Car Guy. Anyway, we want to buy a car from him and drive it back to Georgia. Sadly, I don’t see this happening anytime soon as the funds won’t allow the fun.
i’ve watched his videos on youtube, he had some nice cars there.
I like his video and dealership… That’s my type of car dealer with loads of CC inventory.
His prices are great, but being in California, his shipping to Massachusetts would offset the bargain prices. 🙁
Sorry, he is in El Cajon Ca. 1ownercarguy.com