(first posted 3/7/2016) If you grew up on the West Coast of the USA, in particular California, and more specifically Los Angeles, the picture above no doubt brings back a flood of memories…because if you took a bus to school, you most likely rode in a Crown Coach.
Crown Body and Coach Corporation of Los Angeles was one of the most unique, prolific, and successful bus, truck, and fire apparatus manufacturers in the western US from the 1930’s to the early 90’s.
The company began as the “Crown Carriage Company” in 1904, incorporated at the corner of 6th and Los Angeles St., in a no doubt much less crowded downtown LA.
They made their first motorized vehicle in 1916, and in 1920, their first school buses using Reo, Diamond T and Moreland truck chassis (1927 model pictured).
Throughout the 1930’s and 1940’s the company produced an evolutionary series of school bus designs.
The pinnacle of this evolution, and its signature model, was the Super Coach introduced in 1949. This was a fully modern coach with an under-floor engine in the middle of the chassis. Width was 96 inches and lengths came in 35 or 40 ft, for a max seating of 72 students.
1952 model
1977 model
So good was this initial design, that while modified and improved, it maintained the same general appearance for over 40 years.
What made Crowns so special? In a word – toughness – these buses were legendary for their strength, robust construction, and longevity. While most of Crown’s competitors used 45,000 psi steel, Crown’s floor-pan and framework were constructed of 90,000 psi ultra high tensile steel sheathed with heat-treated aluminum bodywork. The Super Coach’s double-walled steel body structure was both bolted and welded to outriggers on the main chassis which was built using nested channel frame rails and cross-members.
Multiple body posts protected both ends of the coach and the roof of the 35’ model was made up of 22 roll bars spaced 17 ½” apart. The 40’ Super Coach used 26 roll bars, all constructed of the firm’s 90K psi 12 gauge steel.
Yes, this was one tough bus…and Crown backed that up with an unprecedented 20-year/100,000 warranty on all of their coach bodies (later increased to 20-years/150,000 miles).
In addition to single axle models, Crown also built larger tandem axle versions that could seat up to 97 students.
Super Coaches were mid-engined and used horizontal Hall-Scott 779 cu in gasoline or Cummins 743 cu in NHH “pancake” diesel engines. Later versions used mostly Cummins NHH 855 cu in diesels. The Hall-Scott engines, though offering poor gas mileage, gave these buses good power.
The Super Coach chassis was also used for an intercity model.
Crown built other vehicles also – their fire apparatus arm was perhaps just as widely known.
Maybe more so as one of its models had a starring role in a certain 1970s Jack Webb produced TV show…
If you were in Southern California in the 60’s – 90’s, you likely encountered a Crown product……(hopefully not this one)…
Maybe the Library…
Or Post Office…
And if you weren’t in California, you may have ridden in one at another location, such as a national park.
Similar to Flxible Corporation, the company produced one-off and specialized models such as touring coaches for entertainers…(brownie points to anyone other than Paul or I who can remember Gene Autry).
And special models such as this “bruck”, a combination bus and truck.
So what became of the company? Sadly, it closed its doors in 1991 – cheaper (and less robust) competitors emerged and the company was slow to adopt to a changing market. Both Crown and Gillig, based in San Francisco (which Paul did an excellent post on here), gradually lost the west coast school bus market to these less expensive competitors. The fire apparatus arm, though still selling well, was not sufficient to sustain the company.
I grew up in the mid-west, so while I was aware of the company, I never had the opportunity to ride in one of their buses until a military tour took me to Hawaii in the mid-80’s – where several older Crowns were still operating as tour coaches. There were newer MCI units in service, but I always tried to see if I could catch a tour using one of the older Crowns – they had a distinct “solid” feel to them, and the Hall-Scott gasoline engines had a unique “deep baritone” engine note.
Though their numbers are slowly dwindling, you can still see examples of these tough coaches in service on the west coast, testament to a great company and a great product…and a unique part of California history.
The other distinctive CA school bus: CC Gillig Transit Coach – Built Like A Tank PN
Another rear-engined bus: CC 1957 Blue Bird All American PN
The roar of that Cummins diesel engine is not something I will ever forget. Our district had hilly terrain which meant our Crowns got low gearing. Those things would fly through the hills and were always kept on the boil. I have no way of knowing for sure but the engine seemed to have a very heavy flywheel.
The tailpipe was as wide as a manhole cover and came straight out of the bumper at pretty much eye level. No politically-correct CNG noise machines with their baby’s breath exhaust coming out of the top of a Crown.
The buses were beautifully made with plenty of polished metal inside like on the side window frames and latches. Remember how starting the engine would cause all those windows to rattle in unison? Even the brakes had a distinctive sound, kind of like a duck quacking.
The cool kids got to sit in the back seat which was shaped like the rear seat in a 60s T-bird. I would sit there sometimes after the cool kids got off the bus.
Whenever a Crown was sick (I know hardly ever) we got a replacement bus called a Bluebird. What a cramped, underpowered piece of garbage compared to the Crown. There wasn’t a single curve in the Bluebird but the Crown had plenty and was really lovely to look at.
Thanks for the memories and excellent post!
A lot of Crown buses, especially later ones were equipped with the GM Detroit Diesel 6-71 engine mounted sideways. Some of them even have Allison automatic transmissions. I grew up in California so I saw (and rode in) many a Crown school bus. The last Crowns made in 1990-91 were squared off and had a rear mounted Detroit Diesel 6V-92 engine. Don’t forget the old Gillig school buses manufactured from the 1950s through the 1970s which were similar to the Crowns and found mostly in Northern California.
Yes, I would say most Crowns from the late 60’s on had 6-71 power. In fact, Detroit provided Crown a special exhaust manifold with the Crown insignia cast right into it. No mistaking that sound, I knew what powered the ones I rode!
That’s not my experience, at least in the LA Unified School District, whose buses I saw daily by the dozens when I lived down there in the 70s and early 80s. They pretty much all seemed to have Cummins, from the distinctive low bass bark; the GMC engines sounded like they were altos in comparison, since they sounded like they were revving twice as fast due to them being 2 strokes.
Not a surprise, most all the gasoline powered Crowns were retrofitted with Cummins diesels, and many of those older models were still in L.A.U.S.D.’s fleet during those days. 6-71’s were factory installed in the later versions.
My 62 was a 671 Detroit and my current 66 is a 671 as well. I love crows, one of the top 5 busses ever made
Just bought a 77 crown with a Detroit Diesel.5 speed manual.This is partly an RV, it’s been paneled, Rhinoed, has a Composting Toilet, Stove and Oven. It’s got a small refrigerator that just won’t work its so small it’s a freaking joke my plan is to get the 2 year old, rebuilt 2 stroke in top shape. I’ve a friend who does this stuff so I get a brake there. It’s been cut and extended 8 feet! The Bed is an enormous king Serta.It’s got a large power converter. My plan is to put my real refrigerator in the back! No joke! I drove this Crown from Reno Nevada (I flew there to get it) to Massachusetts-over 1,500 miles with a few difficulties. The Engine/gear ratio is positively amazing,I had no problems running at 2.500 RPM the whole way. Not one single hill issue. This Crown ate the Hills and then laughed. This is my new home. I’m fixing it up with lights that don’t draw from the battery, a Flat screen, Microwave, Dishwasher and(truely) the Fridge I have here in my apartment. My friends dad is a carpenter and he wants the work I’m paying him for.he’ll anchor the fridge in the back and put shelving in the bedroom. It already has numerous cabinets and hidey holes. Me,my dog-Boone(who needs a ramp to help him in and out as well as to help him get up on the bed) and my Cat-Betty…..we are paid up until the 3rd of November in this shit hole appartment. Sometime before then, we just hittin the road. I intend on this being my Home. When I leave here, Im headed to some place like North Carolina or some shit for the winter. I’ve become what I was afraid of…..as did my dad……..a “Snow Bird”. This thing is capable and built to last. Not a spot if Rust as it never left the West. Surely, when treated correct, this bus/Rv has many miles and years left.
I just obtained a 1958 crown! I know very little about it other than I love it. It’s been renovated into a motor home.
It’s shorter. Single axle on rear.
I’ve just picked up a 58 crown super coach tandem 40′ touring bus….i am in Portland Oregon area….I’m going to be gutting it and rebuilding a motor coach. Have any of you an interest in collaborating?
If so my number is below
971-221-1042
Hi Corey! My name is Mike and I’m looking at purchasing a dual axel model in the next week…
I would really appreciate being able to talk with you and discuss your experiences so far as I am also going to be making the bus into a motorhome!
Look forward to hearing from ya!
Where do you get insurance for them I cant find anyone to insure mine
How did your project go?
I agree with you totally about the CROWN school buses!
I drove both brands in ARIZONA in the 90’s and LOVED it when I drove the CROWN bus over cheaper Bluebird buses.
The much older CROWN buses would run circles around the Bluebirds for power, handling, mountain climbing ability!
To bad that after they bought the last CROWN bus they were able to buy (2) Bluebirds for the same price as the last CROWN!
Love the sound of these, just don’t get caught behind one…though the exhaust puffs can have a charm of their own.
What a much nicer alternative to the buses I experienced that were simply shells plunked onto a two-ton Chevrolet or (later) International chassis. Maybe a sign of my age, but in elementary school they were all gasoline powered, one year we had a propane powered bus as an experiment, and then finally we went to diesel.
I can only dream about how stout and robust these must be. What a delightful change that would have been from the ones I experienced.
Too young for Gene Autry, but we have a CD of his Christmas songs. I change the lyrics of one of the songs to “I Own A Volare!”.
Christmas music is also how I know Gene Autry. His rendition of Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer featured prominently on one of my family’s favorite Christmas mix albums when I was a child. (“Album” as in “33 RPM record” no less, despite my having been born in ’80).
These tanks are as much a California institution as outdoor lockers and high schools laid out like mini college campuses – none of which I’ve seen anywhere outside of SoCal.
That’s how my High School was laid out in the Southern California suburbs.
LOL! mIne,too. I’ve been looking through Google images. Crown seemed to first have emergency low – “L” then standard H-patterned 4-speed before 1960 (the year I was born, btw), then 1960 on straight 5-speed, then still later 10-speed and various automatics (neither of which I rode—I always rode 4/5 speeds..they never used solenoid reverse deals, maybe since a number of the engines were mid-mounted). I’m from California, and have always thought these buses excellent for all USA, including my grandparents’s and aunts rural Missouri farm area with a lot of rocky (literally!) roads-nothing gets you over such a road like a good Crown bus..five speeds, and maybe even a two-speed rear.
We had Bluebirds exclusively; they were as crappy as you say. When I rode on a city bus for the first time in my late twenties (country girl that loves cars), it was a revelation compared to the school buses I remember, though they break down almost as much.
Our district ran Blue Birds mostly, with a stray Wayne and a Thomas in my earlier years. Those Blue Birds were absolute garbage- they fell apart, and were always in for service.
The old Wayne Lifestar just kept kicking, though. The Thomas was in an accident, and removed from service.
There was nothing like those Crowns. Our elementary district stopped buying Blue Birds and started buying Crowns when I was in elementary school, and there was no comparison, even for an eight year old. The Crowns had one-piece doors that opened and closed like a solid piece of machinery and (IIRC) operated with hydraulics or electricity, not the multi-paneled doors operated with a creaky scissors mechanism, that reminded me of a dairy truck. The Crown bumpers would no doubt survive the apocalypse. The windows rattled in their frames, but the coach itself never creaked or groaned. The wheels and lugs were serious heavy-duty truck units (heck, they were eye-level for an eight year old). The high school district used the large double rear axle rigs, and those things were the absolute kings of the road, the bus equivalent of a 747.
I understand that California has now outlawed older buses, due to pollution concerns. These Crowns will now disappear quickly, and that is a huge loss.
Not all of them!! I grabbed an ’88 from a seller in Ca — from the Pajaro Valley district in Watsonville Runs like a dream here in New York. They are beautiful machines. cf
You wont believe but I live there and had no idea they ever did it and would have loved to have purchased one! I once went to the yard asking about how to get one and they said they can only sell them out of state and they the few they have left have all been converted to tier 4 Cummins and they intend to keep them.
They’re still out there doing Yeoman Duty in Los Angeles by independent operators , Churches and so on .
I rode in these back when new and last year too , hot buggers in Summer but comfy and as mentioned NO SQUEAKS .
A buddy of mine (Hi Steve !) drove them out of Pasadena in the 1970’s and loved their single Hall-Scott equipped one , he managed to do a bootleg turn in it on South Raymond Street when the bus yard was there at the time…
Another buddy had a job riveting on the side panels at the Crown Plant in L.A. in the 1970’s .
Not quite all gone yet , truly missed .
-Nate
The floors were high in these, and the windows were narrow, so you felt sort of captured in one. They painted the interiors in old school hospital green. As a passenger, one was overwhelmed by pale green. All of the signage (back in the ’60s and early ’70s) was hand painted in glossy black, interior and exterior. No decals, transfers, or stencils. The school district name, the “emergency exit” signs, bus numbers, and the capacity limit (on the dashboard overhang) all were hand painted by some excellent old school sign painters.
Just a couple weeks ago I was behind a BlueBird bus and couldn’t help but wonder if there has been any vehicle that has changed so little over the past 35 years. The bodies are still almost identical to the ones I rode as a kid.
I have never seen one of these Crowns in the Midwest. Ours were all BlueBird, Thomas, and some Carpenter 30 years ago. BlueBirds were the most popular. The rear-engine Thomas’ were the premium buses of my childhood, much like this one. Though I’m not sure if they actually were “premium” or if it just seemed that way due to how much quieter the engine was located in back.
Our district had a lone Thomas RE (Accident killed it), and a bunch of Blue Bird REs. The Thomas was better.
Now that I think of it, the Thomas’s were the go-to buses for traveling teams and clubs and such, probably because they had luggage compartments and they may have been a bit roomier too. I can’t recall if any of the front engine snub nose BlueBirds did.
Cool to see the A B C Unified School District bus photo, that was my school district when I was a kid! It stood for Artesia, Bloomfield, Cerritos. You could always tell the model year of the buses by their number, the one above 8901 would be a 1989 model year, at least that was how it was when I was a kid riding them in the 70’s-early 80’s. I distinctly recall my bus driver “Vi” and her bus number was 724, she was the one who told me about the year, hers was a 1972 model, and the 4th one purchased that year. Brings back memories.
724 is still alive and well back in Maine, still rolling and part of a museum there.
So THAT’S what ABC stood for !!! I was a product of Orange Unified School District – Villa Park ( spelled backwards = Krap Alliv ) High class of 1981. Many fond memories of Crown Coach bus rides. Being a rather affluent area we had lotsa field trips & of course Grad Night @ Disneyland !!! Had to meet at school & ride the bus !!!
What a great bus! It is incredible that Crown survived so long by selling such an incredibly over-built product to governmental units that probably had to do competitive bidding. It would seem that almost every other company could underbid them. However, perhaps this was less of a factor when 1) California was booming and growing so fast and 2) the bus business was so much more regional then today.
Great piece!
Oh yes – for the young ‘uns, Gene Autry is the guy responsible for “Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer” becoming such a huge hit. Even though he was before my time too, I was given an elderly copy of the 78 rpm disc (1949?) that I played the snot out of as a little kid. It was a huge hit.
Given that these buses were operated for decades before being replaced, I have to assume that the school districts found them to be cheaper over the long haul than the cheap buses generally used in other parts of the country.
The typical school buses mounted on medium-duty truck chassis probably rarely were kept in regular service for more than ten years. Some school districts in CA had Crowns that were over 30 years old. It was worth overhauling the engines, or re-powering old gas ones with diesels (a common thing), because they were built like a bank vault. The bodies just never seemed to age.
And don’t forget Aerosmiths “Back In The Saddle Again” is their version of Gene Autry’s song.
Growing up in the LA area (lived there from ’67-’97) I well remember these buses, although I never rode the bus to school. It was walk, bicycle, or starting in ’72 drove to school.
I know of Gene Autry for many things including that famous reindeer song lol and we got lots of crown buses here in So Cal
When I graduated high school in 2013, there were still a few of these Crown buses in my district’s fleet. I went to a school in southern California which was within 15 miles of where these buses are produced. I remember noticing how much older the Crown’s looked compared to the other Bluebirds that the district had. Back in 2004/2005’ish there were still a few of these old Crown’s that didn’t even have the roof escape hatches in them. Sadly, the last time I was back in town, I noticed that the district had recently purchased a bunch of new Bluebirds. With that, I’m fairly certain that all the old Crowns have been retired from service.
Yikes, but these things were NOISY and smoked like grease fires. Getting stuck behind one in rush hour traffic was just awful. Those giant exhaust pipes in the rear bumper roared and snarled, and spit out huge stinky clouds of diesel soot practically in your face. Getting stuck beside one in a convertible was guaranteed to drown out even the best 8-track player! Sure do bring back the memories, though.
What a great product and cool signature vehicle for a region! I’m not from CA, but I’ve visited occasionally. I got to ride in one once in the 90’s. It was a tandem rear axle model with a manual transmission, IIRC. I didn’t note whether it was gas or diesel, but it did have a unique engine sound.
As a firefighter, I lust for Crown fire trucks. More beautiful rigs have never been made (though there are a few other contenders for that crown, so to speak). The Hall Scott gas engines in those are legendary.
If it is true that CA is outlawing these old buses, it would not surprise me as it would fit in with trends there today: Quick to jettison their heritage, and make sure everything complies with the current orthodoxy.
Being in Northern California, the leader of school buses was Gillig, based in Hayward, CA. They’re still around but building commercial transit vehicles. Also saw Thomas, Carpenter and Superior Coach as well.
I always thought these looked so cool in movies and on TV. Growing up in Tennessee and Maine, it was just International and Blue Bird buses. Yawn.
There is a good book on Crown, ‘Crown Coach Corp.’ by Louk Markham, published by Iconografix. Full of great pictures, and covers some of the legendary fire apparatus as well..
The bus company that I worked for in northern California was still running a 72 passenger 1956 Crown coach in the mids 80’s. We used set off everyone’s car alarms from the roar of the exhaust just driving down the street. The boss asked us to be kind and shift up a little sooner.
It was an awesome sounding bus. I always thought it had a Hall-Scott engine though.
sorry, didn’t read thoroughly enough. Our bus was a gas engine, so it was the Hall-Scott.
Beautiful sound.
Could have been an International Red Diamond, a few Crown’s were built with those gasoline engines.
I was always envious of the California busses when I first laid eyes on them. All of the busses I ever rode in the Chi Burbs were Internationals and an odd Bluebird here and there, which were as horrid to ride in as they were to look at.
Gene Autry, “The Singing Cowboy”, also owned the Angels baseball team for a while.
I rode on Crown Coach school buses to Jr. High in the mid 1960’s. They were manual transmission diesels driven by men (only) who were also mechanics with the school district during the middle of the day. Our favorite driver equipped his bus with a multi-speaker radio and played the top-40 music that we liked. The underfloor engine was loud and the air brakes also made music. Such memories!
One of the things that made these buses obsolete is hiring part time drivers of both genders for lower wages. They could not be expected to drive a stick in traffic, and large air-braked vehicles require a special license endorsement in CA. School bus driving alone only requires a DMV medical and a simple written test.
I love the interesting tidbits you get from this site like how the bus drivers in your district were only men who worked as mechanics on the same buses. That would explain a lot.
Our driver was a short stocky woman who wore special gloves to handle the enormous steering wheel. She never smiled or spoke unless it was to the bus. I’m not sure if she was cursing at herself or to the bus but here’s what would happen.
In the middle of the route to Jr. High she had to drive down Rockinghorse, a steep winding road, to pick up 3 kids at the bottom. She would U-turn and then start the climb back up which required 1st gear to about 10-15 MPH, a double clutch and then hard pull (or was it a push?) into 2nd. There was always a grind. Sometimes the overrun was so strong that the bus would lurch into 2nd, a gear she would hold til the top of the hill. The symphony of controlled chaos from under the bus would reverberate off the homes and give us car guys on the bus a smile.
About once a month it took her so long to make the upshift that the bus would bog and she’d have to stop, now on a hill, and start the whole thing over again. Mind you the glorious overrun gave like 4 seconds to pull off that shift. That’s when we would hear her curse.
The low placed heavy engine made the Crown very sable in the turns. She could really throw that thing around going up Rockinghorse. From the outside you could hear right into the engine from that sewer pipe of an exhaust system. It wasn’t that way on 18-wheelers or of course normal cars. And yes those air brakes were something too, I called it a duck quack but it was more like a goose honk.
Ours was a newer late 70s model with the padded seatback hoops. There was a framed copy of the registration card on all buses and from that my friends and I could tell the model year. Oldest ever was a 1949 gas and newest was our bus. That ’49 was still real tight.
Don’t forget that it was also the EPA that tried to ban Crowns(even worse with the current administration..of 2021..:( ) and the need for power steering..the endorsement requirement was NOT what I thought of,though! (I somehow think the specia endorsement wouild be elsewhere required,too..depends on state.)
Your wrong on the current administration. The state has been sending Gilligs and Crowns to be crushed since the mid 2000’s. I’am a school bus driver, I drove the last few gilligs and crowns, I’am now in a new Thomas RE with seat belts
I only rode in a school bus for first grade (72-73 school year). It was a GMC conventional, no clue who built the bus chassis, but it was a manual transmission and gas engine.
Ahrens-Fox was a big fire truck manufacturer in Cincinnati, wearing bodies built by Otto Armleder’s company, and later Schacht Body. Too damn cold around here for open-cab fire trucks. The Ahrens family, Fox family, Armleder family and Schacht family are all interred at the historic Spring Grove Cemetery in Cincinnati.
The regional differences trucks and busses is interesting to me. I think things are much more homogenized now. Our local “city” bus company, Metro, runs Gillig and New Flyer busses now, with a few articulated ones. One detail I don’t understand on the new units is polished aluminum wheels…I thought the advantage over steel had to do with weight savings for over the road tractors…I would have thought that aluminum’s weight savings wouldn’t be meaningful in urban use, and a steel wheel SHOULD be more resistant to damage in urban use.
Ahrens-Fox is another amazingly beautiful fire truck! I suppose their configuration wasn’t that practical, since it hasn’t been replicated by any other makers, but it sure was striking.
I wonder if the aluminium wheels are better for heat dissipation from the brakes, hence why they would be only on the front of one of the pictured buses? Otherwise just because they look nicer!
Back in a previous life I drove these buses. From a 1947 Crown with the gas engine roaring through Brea, California, to a 10-wheeler (dual rear wheels) that I drove through the hills of Tustin, California, to the standard single rear wheel that I wheeled through Irvine, California, I double-clutched my way through the standard 5-speed manual transmission on each of them and appreciated the little touches that made a Crown the Cadillac of buses.
I also drove Gilligs for a while, but nothing can touch a Crown for sheer driving fun. The kids, on the other hand, could be not fun at times.
I drove school busses for the Fullerton Union H.S. Dist. In Orange County, CA from 1965 to 1969, most of them Crowns. The drivers were all male college kids hired through the Fullerton Junior College jobs board where part time jobs were posted on 3×5 cards on a cork board. When I started the district had Crowns dating from 1948 to 1965. Most “conventional” busses (those with engines in front under a hood) had a max. Seating capacity of 66 students. The standard crown sat 79 and you had pass the CHP driving test for that size. I moved up to the dual rear axle 91 seat versions with Diesel engines (Cummings).
They were a challenge to drive since they didn’t have synchromesh transmissions and you had to double clutch each up or down shift. Timing was critical to avoid grinding the gears. Plus, if you were going uphill or downhill your timing had to be different for each compared to shifting on a level road. The older ones didn’t have power steering and you had to work that big steering wheel.
However they were the Cadillac of school busses as others have noted, with excellent build quality, fit and finish. If you drove a Crown as a young, “know it all” college boy you looked down on conventional busses or the closest thing to a Crown, a Gillig which made a similar transit or snub nose bus where the driver sat in front of the front wheels.
The last one I drove – a new 91 passenger diesel with power steering, radio (driver and high school kids loved that) also had an exhaust/jake brake which made shifting easier, though you still had to double clutch while shifting.
Of all the jobs I had when young, driving a school bus was my favorite. It fit well with a college class schedule and provided a lot of overtime once you had some seniority. Plus, being a 20 or 21 year old college guy driving 16 and 17 year old girls was pretty nice too. 🙂
I’ve never seen a Crown school bus except on TV and in pictures. What a solid, well-made machine the kids in California got to ride in. Here in Ontario it was all Blue Bird, Thomas, and the occasional Wayne, on an International, Ford or GM chassis.
Ive heard of Gene Autry but the Crown bus is a newie for me, Love the Bruck thats something we had here back in the day when there was a monopoly for rail freight mandated NZR freight buses carted parcel post all over the country full size 40ft bus that sat maybe 16 passengers with the rest a large hold, popular for conversions for race car transporters or horse transport.
My school district pretty much went with the lowest bidder. Spring ISD (north of Houston) in the ’70s and early ’80s was a mix of all the major body builders except for Thomas. The bulk of the fleet were Superiors, with Ward not far behind. There were a smattering of Waynes and Carpenters, and three Blue Birds. The Blue Birds were unique not only for being Blue Birds in a fleet dominated by Superior and Ward, but they were also on a Dodge chassis. Everything else regardless of body was on an IH chassis.
Thomas was all but nonexistent in the Houston area back then, and just down the road was what was probably Carpenter’s largest and most loyal customer for decades, Houston ISD. Losing HISD after the defective weld recall in the early 2000s was the final nail in Carpenter’s coffin.
Anything on a Dodge chassis is really rare!
Great post, I drove a 90 passenger three axle on a route last week. My employer has two Crowns still in service, the 3 axle and an oddball two axle old body with a rear engine. Yes it has a Cummins C8.3 standing up in what should be the luggage compartment. The 3 axle has a Cummins NHH 300/350 with an Allison HT 700. That is an incredible machine, fantastic in the mountains. We scrapped several others, they were Detroit powered, both turbo and non. Two of them were over 400,000 miles and were still in daily service. By far the most reliable school bus out there. Pic is a 1958 Crown special order short bus. One of two made for L.A. County Fire Dept. Hall-Scott powered still.
Los Angeles County bought lots and lots of these ~ Sheriff prisoner transport etc.
-Nate
This is the perfect bus wow you said 2 built my chances of finding one .just went to impossible
Never heard of these buses before and glad I read the article. Sad that such a well made product with a proven record cannot survive in a world of short term and low cost decision making. Loved the anecdotes from those who do remember them. Thanks, Mr Brophy.
Nobody has mentioned Marmon-Herrington as a school bus builder(among various other things). In 1962 I went with my dad to Indianapolis.Indiana to drive a new M-H school bus back to Portland, OR to be delivered to David Douglas School District. It was my 5th grade spring vacation week and was an adventure I will not forget until the day I die. We flew to Chicago(my first airline flight) and then took the train to Indianapolis. The next day we arrived at factory and were treated to a tour including their museum which included all their famous race cars. they even let me sit in one but only being 11 years old I don’t remember which one. All I remember it was a very fun day for me. We got our bus and the other bus was driven by older guy and his wife. They had driven their 1961 Buick Skylark back to Indianapolis rather than fly. Both of the buses were 44 passenger powered by 534 Ford V8’s and Allison 4 spd automatic transmissions. Even then remembered details on cars and trucks. They were governed off to 62 mph to speed and on the straight prairies it seemed a bit slow. We made it back on Sunday having almost going parallel to the original transcontinental rail route to Salt Lake City and then onward to Oregon. I sat in every seat of the bus and had a memorable time of my life.
We had some articulated public transit buses here in Portland Or called Crown Ikaraus. I’m wondering if this is the company that manufactured these buses from Hungary. They turned out to be very unreliable, and mechanics couldn’t understand the manuals ,because they were written in Hungarian.
A Crown Ikarus articulated bus in Portland Or, during the 80s. They didn’t keep them very long, because they were so unreliable.
Those were very popular in former Soviet Union. Some models were used for city runs and others (more luxurious) as coaches for long distance public transportation.
I had the joy of being hired by Orange County Unified School District in 1980 out of college (they had this idea that young drivers would relate better with the student-passengers, go figure).
Anyway I was trained on the Crown and received a Class B license after the driving exam where I double clutched to downshift when negotiating a turn. I was showing off of course my instructor asked afterwards what I was thinking (it was an older model and I think non synchro).
Have to say the Crown is what we all wanted to drive (newbies as well as the vets). The buses maneuvered much better than you might think.
I had one route with middle schoolers that took a 40 footer into Newport Beach Harbor Bay Island. Definitely tight. You had to negotiate the narrow streets exactly right, backing up was considered grand incompetence by the bus driver cognosenti. Of course no backup cameras then and visibility was well, let’s say the Crowns were designed to go primarily in one direction.
Great vehicles, fun to drive and hard as nails.
Not gone yet – took this picture this morning on Brookhurst St in Garden Grove, CA.
The louvers in the rear sheet metal, and the screen at right rear indicate this is one of the later rear-engined units—with the Detroit 6V-92. The original designed had the engines mounted amidships, under the floor, in what was called “Pancake” configuration. It those older units, the huge rear compartment was used for luggage.
THAT brings back memories !!! Playing soccer in Orange Unified School District, some of us would bail out the back window upon returning to Villa Park High. Yes the alarm did go off !!! I’ll always remember the FARTING sound of the flat Hall-Scott gas engine in the older busses; only the Main Street Jitney @ Disneyland sounded so similar.
Could someone, please, explain what was the purpose of a convertible fire truck? Thanks.
They weren’t convertible; they were just permanently open, as were all fire trucks until more recent decades. It’s not like firemen go to a fire without being dressed to get a bit wet. 🙂
Saves a bit of weight, and lowers the centre of gravity a little, I guess….
Thanks, Paul.
What about winter? I have not seen any in Canada.
ALL fire engines were open at one time. As I said; firemen go to the fire well dressed to deal with the elements. No real need to be inside a cab.
Here’s some old Canadian fire trucks:
During my college years in the middle and late 1980s, I took a part time job driving a school bus–specifically to have the opportunity to drive Crowns. My employer, Durham Transportation in Thousand Oaks, California, had a mixed fleet of Crowns ranging from 1964 models all the way through 1976 models. My favorite was unit 7945. It was a 1968 single rear axle model and held 79 student passengers, and had the Cummins 220, naturally aspirated, and a five speed Spicer manual. I loved hitting the starter button and feeling the whole chassis tilt to one side as that motor torqued itself to life. It was a lovely growl. I also drove the three axle variant units 9705, 06, and 07. They were built in 1976, had turbo Cummins 270s, & Road Ranger 10 speeds. Those tandem axle Crowns were also equipped with Jake brakes. They were very very slick to drive.
Once, when one of the Cummins Crown tandems was out for service, I drove a unit from another yard. It was a 1965 Crown tandem axle with a Detroit 6-71, which put up 210 horsepower, and was coupled to an 8 speed manual Road Ranger. It was slow, smokey, and noisy.
I drove our single Gillig unit which had a Cat V8, & a 5-speed manual rear mounted. Very difficult to learn how to drive a non-synchronized reverse shift pattern unit. First gear was where you would expect to find 5th, and visa versa.
Tandem axle Crowns with Cummins and 10 speeds are still in daily use in Oxnard, California, unit numbers 23 and 3.
My understanding is that the 6-71 Detroits could not be retrofitted to reach California emissions requirements for the middle 1990s. This is what prompted Crown to reengineer their units to the rear engine configuration, which allowed installation of the emissions compliant 6V- 92 Detroit, the same ones used in large intercity buses. California State fleet emissions regulations also prompted many school districts to retire their very servicable 6-71 Detroit equipped Crowns. When they were auctioned off, it was not legal to sell them for retitling in California, they had to go out of state or for export. As such, most are gone. The emissions restrictions however did exempt operators with small fleets, so any remaining 671 Detroit Crown seen on the road today, is operated by a small fleet or church.
Any Crown rolling down the road still grabs my attention today. I am very fortunate to have had the opportunity to drive quite a number of them when I did.
Hello
Thank you for the information, I did not know Durham had tandems Crowns or Gilligs.
I never understood why somebody would put a Detroit 6-71 in a tandem axles Crown. A 10 wheeler Crown, is heavier than a MCI MC-9 and I can tell you that a MC-9 powered by a Detroit 8v71N have a hard time climbing hills.
Due to it’s weight, a tandem Supercoach should always have Cummins NT engine.
I wish Crown could have shoe horned a CAT 3406 into tandem Supercoches.
I went to school in Orange County from ’65 to ’79 and all of the buses were Crown in our district. They were absolutely built to last and solid as a bank vault. My understanding is that they weren’t good in snow/ice conditions which is why they didn’t get sold to districts outside California much. They cost more in the beginning to purchase, but they lasted a lot longer so the long term operating expenses were lower. That became a problem when school districts kept them forever and didn’t buy new buses. Crown had engineered themselves right out of business.
Having never been to the West Coast I’ve never so much as seen a Crown in person, but they’re a fascinating machine to read about. Also very cool that there are still a few in service when the last one left the factory in ’91. It’s a refreshingly old school design whose curves recall the 50’s.
I grew up in central North Carolina, just down the road from Thomas Built Buses’ main operation in High Point, NC. As you might expect the vast majority of our buses were Thomas, except for a trio of oddballs which may have been Carpenters. They were a grab bag of chassis manufacturers, including IH, Ford, and Chevy, and not the forward control models–all of them were front-engine. Starting in the early 90’s they purchased quite a few of the snub-nose Vista models, but even those still had the motor up front. My favorite was bus number 35, which I rode in elementary school. ’79 IH Loadstar with the old curvy sheetmetal.
Great memories of these old Crown coaches. I road them through high school as San Jose Unified School District (California) maintained a fleet of them ranging from a 1952 model through approximately 1976. All are gone now. I have a complete set of photos that I took in the mid 70’s of each coach. As an avid car collector with over 100 cars in my collection, I’ve always had a fondness for Crown coaches. Recently stumbled across a ’56 model currently owned by yet another eccentric car collector. It is in very original condition and has been stored since 1991. Other than weathered roof paint and all seating removed, it is in surprisingly good condition. Still has it’s original Hall-Scott gas engine. Can’t wait to hear it roar to life & rattle the exhaust which is one of the most distinctive truck/bus sounds ever! Hope to add it to my collection soon as the current owner is rather excited to see it go to a new home.
Hey Larry, are you the guy I met at the car show with Dieter from LA? Been researching the Crowns as I’ve got to move my ’56 which hasn’t run since at least 18 yrs, but was driven into Caravan RV 9 yrs before I bought it. Just cleaned off the dist. cap today & need to find where to check radiator water, engine oil & so on – do you know anyone who has an operater’s manual for these busses?? Been all over Ebay & google but can’t find any info on operation of the bus – am assuming I need 24 V. to crank it, but have to move it before June 1 as I’m being pushed to relocated in same yard, but still have space. The key is still in the ignition. If you or someone can help me out, maybe we can hear that exhaust note again – ?
Regds,
Ken Nelson
248-515-98798 Palo Alto
I fell in love with Crowns in the early 90’s, when I was working in San Francisco. I never saw them before, being from NY, where Superior and Thomas seemed to be the bus of choice. I was fascinated by the longevity of the design and the art deco quality of the style — so California, I thought. 15 years later I read they were being doomed to the crusher b/c of the diesel emissions. This past May I took delivery of #148, an ’88 Supercoach from Watsonville, Ca. Here in Sag Harbor, Long Island, NY, it’s 3000 miles away from the crusher and a huge hit with everyone who comes in contact. Runs like a champ, clean as a whistle and happy as a clam.
Cool story. Appreciate it. We miss those things. Great busses.
Hello
I went to school in the Inglewood Unified School District schools ( Inglewood CA ), and in the 80’s, IUSD had a fleet of 60’s era, curved windsheilds 35 ft Crown Supercoaches, powered by Cummins 743s, and manual transmission. All but bus #9, had arrows on their turn signals.
In 1986, IUSD bought 2 35 ft Crowns powered by 300hp Cummins 855. They did not come with the curved windsheilds like the 60’s era Crowns. They retired all the 60′ era Crowns except bus #9, by the early 90’s.
Now only one Crown is left in IUSD, one of the 86 Crowns bus #5. The rest of the big bus fleet is atleast 3 Thomas Built Saf-T-Liners RE, 1 Blue Bird T2000 RE and 2 IC 300 RE, 2 smaller Blue Bird Vision wheelchair buses, and the rest are smaller buses. Now bus #9 was still with IUSD in 2001, that’s over 30 years of serves.
I love the big tandem axles ( 40 ft 10 wheels ) Crowns Supercoach with the big Cummins engines ( NT 743 or 855 ), and I loved the way the LAUSD ( Los Angeles Unified School District ) tandems axles Crowns sounded, with those Cummins engines. Now LAUSD 35 ft Supercoach and 40 ft Supercoach II, were Detroit powered ( 35 ft SC 6-71/ 40 ft SC II 6v92 ).
I wonder, was any of the 38 footers, powered by the big 855, because every one I have seen and heard were powered by Detroit 6-71T?
Las Vegas based Ryans Express, has a school division in Los Angeles, and they have tandem axles Crowns with 855, and some rare rear engine Supercoaches with Cummins C8.3.
Wow,
I have an old 47 crown coach bus. still has engine, radiator, seat, misc mechanical parts
was planning to scrap it, but wondered if anyone out there has need for parts.
has original hall scott engine, i thought i would ask around and see if anyone needs parts before hauling it to scap yard sometime next month.
had no idea people actually restored these things.
Don
Hi Don,
Do you still have your 1947 Crown?
Thanks, T. B.
I drove a Hall-Scott ‘47 Crown school bus in 1966. An air clutch and no power steering as I recall. A beast to drive but if you could do it with a smile the other drivers respected you.
Please
Do not scrap a rare find put it bus shows sale it but please do not scrapper, please????
JAMAAL, do you know anyone who can help me find a maintenance manual for a ’56 Crown bus with H-S engine? I need one to know how to check out and start up my ’56 in order to move it a 100 feet without towing it. Would love to hear it run and I don’t see why it wouldn’t but I don’t know where to check for cooling water, engine oil, etc. as access to some areas are restricted in storage yard. Bus is very intact and in SJ.
Thanks,
Ken Nelson
Palo Alto
248-515-9879
Well sounds like you all know your buses here.. l must be in the right place.. l live in the san Fernando valley and came across a 1957 crown coach Corp bus it’s in my buddy’s lot the owner gave to him before leaving to Arizona and he’s trying to sell it for really cheap the bus was parked there 3 years ago and hasn’t moved since it’s in great condition if any one here is intrested call me or text me at 6613659612 danny
hi does anyone know that dimensions of the 1982 and 1990 crown bus.
the buses are double axle and 40 feet * 8 feet * 124 inc but need some drawing picture or factory specifications.
does anyone have a drawing picture with dimensions for 1977-1991 crown bus double axle???
We still operate a 1983 90 pac Crown Super Coach tandem axle with a Cummins NHHTC290 Big Cam I that has been updated to a 350 HP version and HT740 Allison transmission. It passed the Washington State Patrol inspection in 2018. Also have a 1986 Crown 74 pac Crown Super Coach single axle Eaton 2 speed with a Cummins NHHTCC300 Big Cam III that has 300,000+ original miles and a HT740 Allison transmission used for a spare bus. This unit also passed the WSP 2018 inspection. Both have the curved windshield and the tires have been updated from 11.00×20’s to 12.00×22.5 tubeless tires.
Hello John,
Do you still operate Crown buses as described in your Oct/18 post?
Thanks, T.B.
I am trying to get title info on a 1974 crown coach school bus. It was abandoned. The ID plate has a 5 digit number that says vehicle ID number. Was the vin number in 74 only a 5 digit number? Tried a national register search with that number and it says no records found.
I found a link online in a forum indicating that California is requiring all Crown busses owned by school districts to be retrofitted or scrapped to due to more stringent CA emissions rules. Is thistrue?
http://www.skoolie.net/forums/f15/all-crowns-to-be-destroyed-by-california-8922.html
I have a 1971 Supercoach I purchased in 1994. I immediately converted it to a family RV. Turbocharged the Cummins 220, swapped out the Spicer 5 speed for a road ranger 10 speed with overdrive, and replaced the wheels with 22.5 Alcoas with super singles on all four corners. After using it until the kids were grown out of it, it sat for 8 years. I reincarnated it over the past few years and thought Crownies might like to see it in it’s new state.
I worked my way through college driving school bus in SoCal 1966-1970. As the new kid on the lot they started me on a 1947 Hall-Scott with an air-clutch! With a flat gas engine mid-coach it was very vulnerable to stalling out when rain flooded the streets because carb was mounted low. Later moved up to the 79 pass SuperCoach with a Cummins 220″. Then up to the 91 pass tandom axel SuperCoach! My favorite. Crowns were everything that folks say about them. Strong, reliable safe and great to drive. But that mid-engine side-mount radiator with the blower fan was loud!!!
1969 super coach crown owner thh220 cummin non turbo
any info on turbo parts for normal aspir .cummin220
or possible buyer for orig ,engine for renovation ,
I am re engining too 855 vertical 300 hp
Anybody looking for a Crown Conversion? This is a great coach.needs some work, but if you are diesel inclined mechanic and general “into it”. type, this is a fantastic possibility.
I am the second owner of this 1964 Supercoach purchased in 2001 and converted….all maintenance records, Will sell, or perhaps trade fo Class B.
Will send complete details upon receipt of interested inquiry. Ideas appreciated. I am a VERY senior and just cannot “wheel this size vehicle around any more.!.. .8>(
Thanx for looking!!! 8>)
Hello R. C.,
Would you have photos of your 1964 Supercoach that you could send?
I would love to see more details.
Thanks in advance,
T. B.
Thank you for your inquiry….I would suggest checking out Skoolie Livin web site in which we have advertised the coach…with pictures and “known: issues at present. I have lots of pics of the construction process, but doubt that is what you are seeking.
I By the way, this is the exact coach shown n your forum in the picture section….
I have attempted to upload twoo pics, but neither is showing in the “choose file” section???
Send me your email and we’d get them to you/
This coach is AVAILABLE…see on SkoolieLivin web site. I am a senior and just can’t drive it or work on it anymore… 8>( Really a great coach and priced to sell. Needs work.
I have always lived in the Midwest and had never seen or heard of these until a trip to LA in 1994. I kept seeing these school busses and couldn’t figure why they were still using 1940’s busses. When I got home I did a little research and learned the truth. Wow!
Living in Stanwood Washington school district in the 80s-90s, I rode a Crown bus now and then. But, most of the old round buses we had were Gilligs. I became infatuated with them in 3rd grade or so, and I’d often fantasize about buying one and converting it to a motorhome/party bus. I wanted my record player right behind the driver seat. I was a kid outta time.
By 1992, they were being phased out in favor of newer Thomas and BlueBird buses. Bluebird being the only bus manufacturer I recognized when we moved down south.
Well I only went to school, in Southern California, for grades 8-12 in Catholic schools so no bus ride to school ever. Back east for grades 1-7 also Catholic schools. So I have never ridden a school bus to school.
I think these have earned the honor of a second life of sorts. What would be super cool is if someone is crazy enough (hello Jay Leno I’m talking to you) and loaded enough to fund the cost of converting half a dozen busses to electric. It could be tag team effort of sorts, involving high school students, technical college students and one or two of the first electric car conversion companies in California. Maybe even Tesla could donate some parts. After all they have received millions in tax breaks from the state. Conversion of ICE cars into electric is still relatively small but it’s likely to become much larger. This could give many students exposure to being a part of this new area. Perhaps most important would be the pride of having their own little story, and being able to point to a bus they helped convert driving around for another 20-30 years.
It would be great to see these buses tooling around again. I think it is too late already, as most of them have been purged from the fleets. It wouldn’t be the same without the huge growl from the old-time engines. It would be like watching an aerial dogfight or air show fly-by without the sound.
Retooling these buses as electric would be like reconfiguring old DC-3s with modern controls and engines. Who wouldn’t love that?
Great information! Thanks.
Posted a shot of this before and didn’t hear anything from anyone. Thought the renewed interest might allow somebody at least a grin. Have had her since ’94, when she was still yellow with all seats and windows. This is the result of a phase 2 remake in 2019. Gotta love a huge woody!She’s been turbo’d, and tranny switched to 10 sp. from 5. 465 r22 tires and alcoas just for the higher rolling speed. Enjoy!
*VERY* pretty ! .
-Nate
Love it! Good job.
+10!
Gorgeous! I’ll be picking up my 83 Crown tandem in LA next month. It’s got a Cummins 855 Big Cam with 5 speed manual and straight pipes. Can’t wait! I noticed the motorcycle rack in your previous pic. I’m a rider myself if you don’t mind sharing how that works on the back of your Crown…
This is the 1972 Crown that serves the Wandering Troubadours of Finland team as crew bus in the Great Race every year.
Whoops, I thought I had successfully attached a photo to that last post.
As I was told, the plural of bus is spelled buses in order to distinguish it from busses, the plural of buss (kiss).
Prior to high school, I was a “walker”. During the 1975-79 years that I rode the bus, out district had one like the lead in pic. All the others were the traditional school bus with the engine bay extending out in front.
Noticed, come the 1990’s, about all the buses looked the one in the lead pic.Not sure what years those “white” (some light emitting) roofs became the norm.
Does anyone know where I can find a operator manual or any manuals for an 88 SuperCoach? We are in Maryland so we have very little resources for Crown Coaches back east.
Try Paul Politis Auto Literature, politpaul@yahoo.com .