Consider this a preview, as the gen3 Seville is long overdue, and will arrive soon. Gen1 and gen2 Sevilles both earned the dreaded DS status. Want to place bets on the gen3? Here’s the kicker: I “owned” one once. So it’s not going to be just about perceptions from across the street.
I would take the Gen 1 off the DS list and replace it with the wretched Gen 3.
Agree, except I would take Gen 2 off as well.
I test drove the 86 Eldo when it came out. I could not believe GM would think it would sell. WAY TOO SMALL. Eldos made the Coupe and Sedan DeVilles look big, maybe that was the idea.
The 92’s and up were the right idea.
Gen 1 & Gen 2 were no DS especially for the Cadillac market at the time. The Gen 3 was not a bad car but was clearly a bet gone wrong. We talked about this extensively in some other post that I cannot remember which. I owned an 89 Eldorado briefly (cheaply due to a failed ABS unit I mentioned in a previous article) and as a basic car, it was really nice. The 4.5 really moved the car well at that size and the bucket seats and 4 way strut suspension with transverse leaf spring (like the Corvette) was competent. The biggest issue was, like the Cimarron, it wasn’t right for the times. It felt nothing like my 83 Eldorado (although it was considerably faster) and just did not give off the Cadillac “aura” that one came to expect. As bad a mistimed product as the 86 E/Ks were, it is not quite the “what were they thinking” moment, but rather a deliberate and creative bet that simply turned out to be wrong. In the early 80s when these cars were developed many thought that gas was going to continue to be expensive and the decision was made to get ahead of the curve. Well twists of fate tend to have unintended consequences and this was one of those. Sort of like the reverse of what happened to Chrysler for MY1974. Ironically, the Mustang II was not intentionally developed as a small car due to energy concerns, but ironically happened to debut almost exactly when Oil Crisis I hit and became a major hit partly because of it. It certainly makes for an interesting story just how much timing plays into the success or failure of a product.
With that said, although the Eldorado had an ETC version for several years during this generation, the probably one good nugget to come out of the Seville was the introduction of the STS in 1988. While still based on the rather smallish sedan body, it was almost a revolution in Cadillac design. A touring package had been offered on the C-body deVilles since 1986 and of course the Eldorado had an ETC since 1982, the STS was Cadillac’s first real stab at the sports sedan market. Yes it was not quite as sophisticated as the BMW sedan in total handling, but as a Cadillac, it combined a remarkable level of comfort and luxury with much improved driving experience, unlike a Cadillac had been previously. While the STS version of this generation were never huge sellers, they began something of a “gentleman’s cruiser” and was often seen driven by a major character on the prime time soap Dallas which I remember well. Then the Gen4 Seville came out for 1992, the STS came into its own especially when equipped with the NorthStar engine.
The only small quibble I have with the picture is of course the car presented is an 86-88 model (the 89-91 models had the cornering lights in the chrome surround behind the bumper) and the Civic is a much newer model. An 86 Civic coupe or CRX would indeed be smaller.
Good points, all of them, but the execution of the early STS and ETC packages was flawed. They just did it wrong; first, by making them obscenely expensive options and second, by revised styling that gave the impression of extreme contradictions. Is it German sport or American luxury? The two just didn’t play well together back then. Kind of like seeing someone driving a clapped out RWD FWB sporting wire wheel covers surrounded by raised white letter tires from Pep Boys — tires or not…IT AIN’T SPORTY.
Well that therein lied the problem that the domestic automakers faced especially during the 1980s. The market was changing no doubt – the domestics had to fight a two-front war please their existing customer base (in Cadillac’s case people who expected the cars to be large, conservative, a bit garish, and comfortable) while trying to respond to the trends in the marketplace. The foreign marques basically initially lived on a small pool of cars entered the market and basically said “this is who we are and this is what we sell” and the market came to them. Before emissions and fuel economy became paramount concerns, you basically had Americans that were big and the foreign cars that were small. Once downsizing began in the mid late 70s the “Average Spatial Size” of cars began to slowly come together to the point that today the average foreign make car is basically the same size as the American make. As one commenter pointed out that the current generation Civic is almost the same size as the original Accord.
I agree that the E/K cars of 86 were probably a bridge too far at the time considering but practicalities dictated that old barges of any kind were on their way out. When I came to Cadillac in 1993, everyone loved the Fleetwood Broughams because they were like a rolling landmark but that was only a small portion of the market at the time. The STS was where the action was at and the demographics were completely different. Most of the people we saw buy the 92-97 STS were people in their 40s 50s that still respected the Cadillac brand as their father did but wanted to move on from the Brougham-tastic experience.
@Craig “With that said, although the Eldorado had an ETC version for several years during this generation”
Wrong! No ETC for the 86-91 generation. You could have ordered the FE2 suspension package on an ElDorado. But you couldn’t get the 3.33 axle ratio that the STS recieved as standard equipment.
As a driver of a 90 Riviera I agree with you on your accessment of the qualities of the 3rd gen Cadillac E/K Body.
I like the interior of the 3rd gen STS over the sedate Seville version. Must be those walnut veneer door trim panels.
You must have forgotten about this one. The ETC was dropped for the 1986 redesign but reintroduced for 1990 using the Seville wheels, similar interior type treatments (real wood but not the heavy slabs like on the STS), and the wheels. Not sure about the axle ratio I would have to look that up.
I have never driven an 86-93 Riviera but have a Reatta and the experience was pleasant.
So no Blue Max for you today… 😉
Yep your correct. I appoligize for shooting from the hip. Or the cowling. I don’t have access to my personal archives when I post on this site from work. Funny I couldn’t find a copy of the brochure anywhere online either.The ETC was an option package and not a seperate model like the STS was. The ETC became a seperate model in 1994. The 90-91 ETC did indeed have the 3.33 where as the base models had a 2.97. I’ve driven a few C/E/K/H-Bodies with the 3.33 and IMO it really wakes them up. Plus you don’t have that annoying downshift when you’re going up a grade with the cruise on. The only external ID of an ETC is the lack of a stand up hood ornament and the special ETC emblems on the sail panels. And dual exhaust tips if you approaching from the rear.
Someday I’ll get moving on doing a CC for the 86-93 E-Body based on my experience with my 90 Riviera. I know there have been a few on this site already but nobody has done one from the drivers seat POV.I’m gathering evidence at a very slow pace to debunk Pauls DS. All I can say if you add up the numbers they really don’t add up to a total DS assuming you’re basing the DS status on slow sales in the early years. I am a 79-85 Buick Riviera fan as I’ve owned more of them than any other model of car and I would never have dreamed I would be driving a “baby Riv” today. I’ve done a total 180 as far as opinion goes on this generation.
Kudos on the Blue Max connection. Not many people bother doing a google on the name. I choose the name because the character kind of epitomizes me in a way.
“the dreaded DS status”
So in French the DS is a Goddess, but in American it’s a Deadly Sin…..
Think of it as a deus, like a Friars Club Roast……
My initials, and not infrequently used to describe my mental capacity.
deus ex machina…
An amazing comparison for how much cars have grown in general since, really.
Of course, these Caddies were tiny compared to their predecessors, and their competition even when they were new. These years did much harm to the Cadillac brand and the change was noticeable then. People who I knew that used to buy them, stopped buying them and switched to Lincoln, then eventually to the imports. This is the reason why you see the blue hairs driving around in Audis, Mercs, Lexus and the Toyota Avalon around my neck of the woods. The DS title is deserved.
I’d like to confer DS status on that EP Civic coupe, too–representing, as it does, the first step in the dumbing-down of the Civic after its ’96-’00 EK peak. But the thing’s sales told a different story.
I haven’t owned a Honda in a while, mainly because I don’t like the style and the feel from the driver’s seat since sometime in the 1990’s. But, I’m not sure that DS status is warranted at this point, unless we find Honda moving towards bankruptcy within a few years because of lost market share.
Was Cadillac trying to target BMW 3 series, Mercedes 190, and Audi 4000 buyers?
Yes and no, there were concerns about buyers leaving Cadillac to imports, plus a whole new generation of buyers that were not even setting foot in a Cadillac showroom to replace the 60+ ones that were starting to die off, combined with dire predictions of gas being $3.25-$4.00/gallon by 1985-1986 back when these cars were designed back in 1980-82 and you have this.
These could be an entire chapter in a class about product planning, changing buyers tastes and market predictions.
I think the STS was probably intended to target that market a bit closer. The STS was roughly in the size range of that sport sedan market, it was just small for a Cadillac. It is a rare feat for a brand to reinvent itself. Cadillac has done it now and generally pulling it off. Olds tried to do it in the late 80s and early 90s but it didn’t work. VW had to in the mid 70s and again in the early 90s and almost died twice but managed to come back.
Actually Carmine there are in many MBA classes – I have been a guest lecturer and panel participant in many of them most recently at Wake Forest about WV around 1993.
Appearances deceive; as with the earlier Cressida Wagon/xB photo, I think the Civic’s higher beltline, plus comparable wheelbase (5″∆), is why it appears larger. But that Seville is spec’d at 190″ long, whereas that [7th?] generation Civic is about 174″ [source Wikipedia].
But that we can imagine this Civic is anywhere near a Caddy in size shows how much the Civic has grown over the years; the early ’70s 3-doors are only around 140″, closer to the modern Fit.
Another sign of the times: The modern Civic Si model has the same max HP rating (of course at higher revs) as that old Seville.
It would have been more fitting if the 2012 Honda Accord 4 Door Sedan were pitted against this 1986 Cadillac Seville since the last Honda Accord was 194.9″ long compared to this Seville at close to 190.0″ long which was not that much larger than the much cheaper Chevy Celebrity 4 Door Sedan from that Seville’s era as well. The Civics of any year were just poor basis for comparison that the Cimarron was even a little larger than this Civic.
Agreed, I didn’t think the Honda looked larger in the photo
Always thought that if these had been the Cimarron rather than a poxy J-car they may have done much better. Of course the pricing would have had to be correct for the market segment!
I don’t think it helped the Eldo/Seville’s case any that they had almost the exact same styling as the N-body Grand Am/Skylark/Cutlass Calais.
Not the best Caddies by a long shot, but I think the Sevilles carry this styling better than the other N-bodies nlpnt mentioned.
I prefer the cars of the 80s and 90s BECAUSE they’re smaller than the cars of today. And lighter. And simpler…
I have had good luck driving Caddies since the 80’s. I owned an 1985 Eldo with the infamous 4.1. 100,000+ trouble free miles. Serviced and oil changes when required was all it needed. The driver door inside latch broke somewhere in the middle of it’s time with us. That was it.
The 90 Seville that replaced it was also trouble free. Didn’t make 100,00 on that one. T-boned by an illegal alien with no drivers liscense and no insurance. We liked that car because it wasn’t a behemouth. Right size for a family of three. The car was lost, but, the wife was undamaged. It died a heroic death.
The 1995 Seville STS that came next was the most problematic one. Liked the Northstar power, didn’t like the oil consumption. After replacing the worn valve guides under warrantee went well over 100,000 miles with no further major issues.
After trying a couple of other makes bought a 2008 STS. 55,000 mostly trouble free miles on that one. A bad battery cable and battery replaced under warrantee have been about it. Oh, also had to replace both key fobs when the dealership screwed them up on a reprogram. This one is the best of the bunch. It doesn’t have the stupid nav system. It will also be my last Caddy. I refuse to buy anything from obama motors.
Ok so although I’m generally pretty hard on GM and all of their FWD cars of the 80s and 90s, even I have to admit this was a decent car in its day…although styling and size were somewhat questionable and really took a toll on sales. But, it still managed to look properly Broughm-y and it drove pretty well for a Cad. Was a much better driver than the DeVille.
My dad went from a 75 De Ville to a 78 to an 85, followed by a 90 Seville like this and frankly, it was a perfectly good car that lasted 7 years with no troubles, looking like new when he traded it in on his next sled. In fact it was better than all of those preceding it in terms of build quality and driving dynamics. In short, it was a solid, comfortable car.
But is it a DS? Absolutely! My dad was 56 when he bought it; and even he acknowledged it was an OMC (old man’s car), but it made sense for him because he felt the new Infiniti Q45 my stepmother had requested was too expensive for his blood, so this was seen as a sort of compromise. She apparently didn’t share his sentiment however, as they divorced within months after the purchase!
But I digress. All the proof I need that this was part of a string of GM DS’s is this simple fact: that was the LAST Cadilac he ever bought. Here was a GM guy, a true Cadillac Man through and through, yet he hasn’t even cared enough to consider any of their cars in almost the last quarter of a century, and he’s bought or leased 6 new cars since that time. Shame on you, GM.
I have to ask, why?
They have done nothing but get better since 1990, true the Northstar has issues, but it runs like a raped ape, the Seville, Eldo and DeVille all returned to a more reasonable size, so whats kept him away?
” I refuse to buy anything from obama motors.”
I feel the same, I refuse to buy anything from the 3rd reich, Tojo or our former Colonial Masters……
Whatever…..
Why not? To each his own. That’s what freedom is all about. Or would you rather everyone be forced to buy domestic, to support the domestic car industry, either by outright ban on import makes, or excessively high tariffs on them?
Could be as simple as his preference changed (or he simply had found an alternative that he now prefers), and he’s simply sick of GM’s way of doing things (it shows up in everything they make, from the cheapest Chevrolets to the most expensive Cadillac, until recently), like how the brakes feel, the turn signal stalks, etc.
I’m sorry, I thought I was in free country where I could ask questions whenever the hell I felt like it.
Wow, way to jump down someones throat, I was curious to know, since he still bought Cadillacs even this tiny unpopular Seville, why he didn’t buy anymore when Cadillacs started to improve, did that bother you that much?
Carmine, 1 word: style.
He’s always been a luxury car guy, and for a very long time he was a GM guy. In his mind, luxury = style and presence. Of the 4 Cads he had, he really only liked 1 of them, the ’75, because it looked good and was freakin huge. Too bad it turned into a rusted heap in less than 3 years. Total junk. The ’78 really lacked alot of the style of previous generations, despite being loaded up with things like the dElegance velour pillow seats and shag Tampico rugs (ok I’m using the term ‘style’ loosely here, work with me.) The 85 and 90 were merely shadows of their former selves, not real “Cadillacs”.
Point is, in his mind there hasn’t been a decent looking Cadillac since about 1976.
Here’s some more (probably unnecessary) detail:
In 87 he also got a Rover Sterling as a 2nd car which he ended up selling to my brother in law, and then in 94 he did a short term lease on an XJ6…it was definitely a gorgeous car with presence.
After that, he finally got over the whole luxury car thing and hasn’t had one since. Did a few Chryslers, and now has a Lexus SUV lease, his first Japanese car. I’m sure he got it because of the name, because frankly there isn’t a whole lot good about it, and it certainly doesn’t look very good. BTW he doesn’t really like it that much either.
And yes I have guided him on several of his car decisions. My pics for him were the Sterling, Seville and Pacifica.
It’s a catch-22 some wanted Cadillac to keep old style barges and they did until 1997. Others complained with the introduction of the Japanese premium imports Cadillac should change to mimic them. I can see like in the mid 80s when some people gravitated to the Town Car or the Fifth Avenue because they were still traditional designs. That did Lincoln well until 1998 when the TC when aero. By 1990 a Cadillac was far more well built than either the Sterling or the Jags until Ford sorted out some of the mess. No surprise everyone puts Chevy 350 in the Jags when the 4.2 crapped out. Most of the people that would buy a 75 style Cadillac are now dead or close to it (crass but true) and the reminiscers just keep one for a hobby car. The fact of the matter is the paradigm for many cars has shifted over the years. There will always be a market for cheap reliable non cars like the Corolla plus cars like the Prius and the smartfortwo for people that feel they are destroying the earth a little less than the rest of us. The fact of the matter is the current Cadillac buyer is not a 60+ fat veteran of a foreign war that worked all his life at an hourly job a one company to buy his retirement vehicle so he could pull up at the VFW with cigar in mouth to drink highballs. People will move on but the biggest thing is that there are options in the marketplace to capture the hearts and minds of every type of buyer. I hope that it continues to be that way.
I think we’re all in agreement about the changes that took place. It’s also safe to say that had GM not lost its way (yes I’m looking at you Roger Smith, John Smale, Rick Waggoner, etc.) there’s a good chance they could have figured the whole thing out and come out with some exciting product. Luxury evolved, GM cut costs. Had GM truly evolved with luxury car trends who knows what kind of interesting things could have happened.
Cadillac is just now arriving to the starting gate with pretty exceptional product. Looks to me, then, like it was a failure of leadership to keep some sort of American luxury alive.
Maybe these should have been an Olds…the low-slung chariot look is pretty cool, perhaps just not for a Cadillac.
“I refuse to buy anything from obama motors.”
Agreed. Although Uncle George threw the first round of money at them.
1+. That’s exactly it.
It’s not that these were bad cars, they just were not Cadillacs. They would have made a great Olds or Buick (and I guess did).
As for the politics, people need to stop believing everything they hear on cable “news”. Both sides…
There was a 1990 STS for sale near me for 2k, I stopped and looked at it, but I couldn’t believe that this car was a Cadillac. It was so small, and the styling to me was not classy and elegant like a cadillac should be. It’s hard to believe that this shared showroom space with the big Brougham, a true cadillac.
I like the new CTS a lot from the NY Auto Show pics. My main gripe is the lack of analog gauges. Also have a concern that the glossy surfaces on the center console will show fine scratches over time. The dash is a bit over styled, overall.