I just stumbled into this by accident, but as soon as I saw it all I could see was the 1966 Toronado. I found it at osi20mts.com, about the origins of the Italian firm OSI. Virgil Exner Jr. left a comment there, as well as this picture of a 1/4 scale clay his dad made for a Fiat Ghia 1500 proposal. An exact date wasn’t given, but it’s not hard to figure out that it had to be early 1963, or most likely 1962.
After Exner left Chrysler in late 1961, he opened his own design consultancy. In early 1962 Luigi Segre visited Exner and asked him to open a Ghia US subsidiary, and part of that deal was that Exner would create a certain number of design concepts and scale models. But Segre died in February 1963, and all dreams of opening the Ghia US operation died along with him. So this concept must have been made during 1962 or very early 1963.
image: hemmings.com
The Toronado creation story credits this rendering by David North, called the “Flame Red Car”, dated to the early part of 1962. But when one really looks at it, it went through considerable evolution to the final Toronado design. It’s much flatter, and the tail is horizontal, and doesn’t swoop down like the final Toronado. And it appears that there is a break where the C-Pillar meets the rear fender. That lack of that became a defining feature of the Toronado design.
Exner was the father of the “fuselage” style, antecedents of which date back to the early 1950s. If we imagine that rear fender kickup of his 1952 Chrysler D’Elegance being totally smooth and integrated, this already has more than a bit of Toronado in it.
Exner’s fuselage design language was pioneering in creating a continuous plane from the doors through the windows, eliminating the step or shoulder that almost everyone else had in their designs at the time. Only his fins got in the way of the clean and continuous rear-quarter on his Chrysler designs, although all of his 1962 and 1963 designs for Chrysler, Plymouth and Dodge all have an unbroken c-Pillar, except for a character line/break a bit further down on the body.
Most likely North’s original “Flame Red Car” was conceived before Exner’s Fiat Ghia clay proposal, but in the development of the Toronado to its final design, it certainly seem like some Exner influence worked itself into the rear section. Or was it just coincidence?
If it’s a coincidence, it’s an extraordinary one. It seem very close to me, at least from the above perspective. I would love to see other views of the mockup.
The fronts are undoubtedly quite different. The Flame Red Car’s front end does predict the Toronado’s, and is unlike the Exner model. If the Exner model had an influence, it’s on the middle/rear parts only.
We never knew anything about the Exner 1/2 model in scale. It is comical to think that we would, how could we?. The Mangusta also was designed close to that time. To see the Toronado Design Story from people who were there go to >deans garage.comautosofiinterest.com<.
This two sites have the story in detail.
Finding an aesthetic answer to a problem is very much like mathematics,
Different people can arrive at the same solution to the problem given the same needs. The problem is what is done with the solution? In the Toronados case it was not a random study but a genuine need that was evolved and developed to a production car.
THE CORD 810 INFLUENCE
At the beginning of the program there was a natural tendency to identify with the Cord 810, because of its front wheel drive and clean simple design, as an influence on theToronado. The Cord 810 was then and is now outstanding. Bill Mitchell made it clear that he did not want to see design elements from any “old cars” being considered.
Other than a strong and smooth design statement, the hidden headlights that were more Corvette-like and the final wheel design the influence became relatively minor. It never was an important factor. The wheels were originally designed in cast aluminum but at that time un-affordable even on a premium car.
We felt strongly that designed functional steel wheels without full hubcaps were the appropriate direction to take. That is when we turned to a picture that I had and we used the Cord wheel design for inspiration. The fine bright chrome blades in the grill opening could also be seen as like the Cord, it had fine metal blades wrapping horizontally across its front and onto the sides of its hood.
I think that the Cord 810 may have been an engineering inspiration more than a design inspiration. Stan Wilen and John Beltz were very close and there is no doubt in my mind that they both appreciated the Cord for its engineering achievement and as a strong design statement.
Dick Ruzzin
More proof that styling ideas are sort of an industry parts bin and you never quite know who will first successfully commercialize a particular look. The Toro probably took influence from both this clay and the “Flame Red Car.” And the Cord.
Aside from the roof, it looks like the back part of the Flame Red Car drawing was the inspiration for the 1967 Eldorado.
Sorry, The 1967 Eldorado was being designed at the same time that the 1966 Toronado was.
Whether or not the Exner model had an influence depends entirely on who might have seen it outside of Fiat Ghia. If GM stylists had access to pictures of the model or had seen it then it may have had an influence. A more relevant question might be what did Exner see that inspired the model. I find it very curious that both the model and the “Flame Red Car” have the same look around the wheels and lower body. Presumably the Flame Red Car was first.
To me it looks like a more daring version of a Sonnett… the Sonnet doesn’t quite make the leap to the fuselage style, though. (It still has a “shoulder” over the rear fender.)
The Sonnett, btw, might be the all-time winner of the front-overhang contest, though it’s not so bad in the back. Bring a Trailer posted one recently.
I wonder if it could have been the other way around, i.e., could Exner have been influenced by the Flame Red Car in the styling for his Fiat Ghia 1500? The similarities of the two concepts and the final product certainly makes it seem like someone was influenced by someone else’s design.
Much more likely that both were influenced by something that predates both.
Considering them both in vacuo, I’d be leaning toward the Cord 810/812, which was of course the documented progenitor of the Toronado. If you had a class of automotive design students and gave them an assignment for each of them to come up with a modern interpretation of the Cord 810/812, both of these are within the realm of what you’d expect to get back even if the students didn’t collaborate and didn’t look at each other’s work.
We worry too much about originality and ownership of an idea. As an artist for over 40 years, I can tell you that novel ideas are rarer than hen’s teeth. You get your rocks off by executing a personal spin on what’s already in the air. If the Toronado was inspired by Exner’s model, more power to them. They certainly improved upon it.
Picasso said, “Art is Theft”.
It’s not “worry” at all. I don’t think anybody would fault the Toronado designers if they plagiarized Exner or vice-versa. Some of us, myself included, are simply very interested in knowing who got their inspiration from whom or what when designing a car.
Perhaps Barry’s use of the word “worry” is more to do with the natural human tendency to want to ascribe authorship or ownership of creative ideas, especially so by those are in the business. Humans have egos, and some are bigger than others
But his point is spot-on. I think way too many folks give too much credit to a specific designer of a car, for instance, when the process of conceiving and designing one inevitably is far from a vacuum.
Harley Earl and Bil Mitchell went to Europe every year, to see what the Italians and others were doing. Mitchell always bought three or four that caught his eye, and set them in the Design Center in prominent places, where all the designer would see them.
Everyone in creative fields is always looking to see what the latest thing is. Creativity needs to be fed a steady diet of inspiration, from others, mostly.
But yes, the process of trying to find the possible sources is fascinating, although undoubtedly we’ll never know the full story. All it takes is for someone to have heard about someone else’s project, or gotten a glimpse of it. Who knows how often that happened, and in which directions it flowed. Makes for good speculation, anyway.
Yeah. It’s fascinating stuff!
The illustrations of the proposed facility (at the OSI site) are just as beautiful as the car:
I’ve always been of the mind that the “monocoque” aspect of the Toronado’s styling, while interesting to look at, is somewhat oversold as a styling innovation. I read it instead as a modernization (albeit a skillful one, don’t get me wrong) of a ’30s styling cue. If you look at closed cars of that time, particularly streamliners like the Lincoln Zephyr or the Airflow, the roofline often flows continuously into the rear deck. The notchback integral trunk and rolled beltline were beginning to appear by then, but that idiom was only starting to become dominant in the late ’30s and wouldn’t become ubiquitous in the U.S. until the ’40s.
The Cord 810/812 was an odd case in that respect because the roofline and sail panels of the sedans almost blend seamlessly into the rear deck and really look like they should. On closer inspection, there’s a curious horizontal discontinuity around the beltline, aft of the rear doors, but that faint ridge seems more like a tooling kludge than a design decision. So, if you were doing a modernization or reinterpretation of the Cord’s major themes, that discontinuity is an obvious thing to omit because it doesn’t seem like it should have been there to begin with. (I’m sure someone will argue that the ridge there is an essential part of the closed Cord design, but squint at it and tell me it doesn’t look like it should blend.)
Bill Mitchell and Virgil Exner Sr. were of a similar age, started out at GM in the same era, and both loved neoclassical cues. Obviously, Mitchell didn’t actually create the Flame Red Car or the Toronado personally, but it’s pretty clear that he loved that kind of thing. As for Exner, Paul has talked at length about Exner’s late-career neoclassical stuff, so I think it’s safe to assume that he loved that kind of thing also. Hence, for both of them and the people working under them, picking out elements of prewar design and giving them a modern spin was kind of a go-to move, as evidenced by stuff like the split-window Corvette Sting Ray (talk about ’30s throwbacks).
That’s how I’d read all of this. Certainly, Detroit designers of this era did have a lot of cross-pollination and there weren’t a whole lot of real secrets when it came to interesting design studies, but in this case, I think focusing too narrowly on a few specific possible examples misses the forest for the trees.
Bill Mitchell had significant input on the design of the Toronado, he was a hands on VP.
The rear overhang of the Exner car is pretty long for an Italian sports car, it really needs a longer wheelbase. I think it was probably inspired by the aerodynamic ‘study’ cars being built by Alfa Romeo etc. It is amazingly similar to the Toronado though.
Great find Paul. When you consider the rear of the 58 Imperial D’Elegance concept (sans fins), i can sort of see things taking a tributary to this. Those wheelarches are scary similar though, and combined with the rest of the (half) car make for an interesting pocket in automotive design history.
My question is:
How much did the “flame red car” influence the ’70-’76 Thunderbirds and the Mark IV?
A lot- there is an image of styling clay from the Ford Studio that is a 1966 Toro tricked out with Thunderbird badging. It was apparently done before the Toro was launched, so it’s safe to say there is sometimes a bit of “leakage” between studios at times….
Bill Mitchell had significant input on the design of the Toronado, he was a hands on VP.
Exner’s version almost looks like it could be a modern cyclecar, given its narrowness.
It appears to be only a half car, placed against a mirror to produce an image of the other half. That was quite common when the designers were doing scale models of their designs, because it cut the work in half.
Every time I see a really excellent photograph of the first gen Toronado, it takes my breath away. I was a clay modeler at GM in the late 60s and it was heartbreaking to see the changes being made to the Toro as the nameplate
slipped into its second gen clothes. But then, how could they have improved on a masterpiece.
Your last comment/question is Very true. You don’t see custom 66 or 67 Toros for a reason. There just aren’t areas to modify without making a mess. Sure, other enthusiasts will say the same about their beloved model, but there are many who will see a significant modification and admire the outcome. The same numbers of people can’t be found when looking at a significantly modified Toro.
My father made a cool but very minor mod to the grille on one of his 67 Toros. He cut out the horizontal pieces leaving only the verticals. After plating, the vertical pieces became wider, resulting in a tough overall appearance that I think is almost as cool as the 66 and cooler than the 67. He also modified the front seat by cutting out the middle section & turning it into bucket seats. Same seat but with a long flat floor to take in and admire from the back seat!
He turned another toro into a convertible, but again, the same factory look remains. (both of these cars were saved from being flattened into scrap)
I agree with the article in that this directly inspired the Toro…but what about the AMX? The slant from the roof to the trunk reminds me a lot of one.
Interesting,but I have never seen this model. When I first started this design it was for
A 2nd gen.Pontiac GTO . I had worked on 1st GTO and then was promoted to
Asst. Cheif Designer in Oldsmobile studio where I did the red rendering fall 1962.
Car design is like writing music,you are influenced by what you like. Nothing is really
All new. I was influenced by a scale model I worked on with the Cadillac designers
When I was first hired by Chuck Jordan Cadillac Cheif designer the summer of 1959.
Thanks for commenting and your insight. That rather confirms what I wrote in a comment earlier: almost nothing in the design process is created in a vacuum. And attributing all the influences is essentially a futile undertaking; one may not even be conscious of them.
A very cogent and insightful comment.
Dick, Thanks for attending the 50th Anniversary Toronado homecoming in Lansing this past June.
cheers to you, David North and all of the other designers & engineers who brought this great vehicle to market. It is fantastic.
http://stores.racetrackstyle.com/1966-67-toronado-bottle-opener/
This is a great post. To hear from people that were directly involved with the actual design of a car is amazing. I’ve got lots of opinions but they’re just based on my preferences and own speculation. Great stuff, Thanks.
So glad to finally come across discussion of this topic. As a Cord fan from the ‘fifties, I was delighted by the new Toronado when it appeared, and I read what I could find about the car. Two magazine snippets come to mind, both likely from Road & Track or Car & Driver. A dentist (as I recall it) sent an illustration of a shortened Toronado — not so short as to be ridiculous, but a noticeable if subtle alteration. I believe this was a “paper” remodel, not an actual one !
The other thing I recall is a mechanical appraisal: a writer noted that the front suspension — A-frames, etc — was just massive, a very robust version of the usual front end. Guess the engineers weren’t taking any chances with GM’s very first production FWD cars ?
Thanks for notes from Dick Ruzzin and the others who were “there when” ! Good things were happening at all the studios, in the ‘sixties — but GM styling took the gold, under Mitchell and Jordan, I believe.