Text by Staxman
I’m in the market for a car (specifically an 8th- or 9th-generation Honda Civic) for the first time since the pandemic, and obviously the landscape has changed. Every car I’ve ever owned until now, I’ve bought from a private party. It’s my perception that there are still some cars being offered by private parties, but not as many as there used to be. I’m keeping my ear to the ground via Craigslist, Autotrader, etc., but so far, no cars that quite hit the sweet spot with regard to geographical proximity, price, mileage, and condition. So far, I’ve test-driven one car, which I’ll get to in a minute.
The question really comes down to: How do I find a reputable dealer? I asked for recommendations on Nextdoor.com in Seattle, and a couple of people named dealers they’d been happy with. That’s fine as far as it goes, but I’m trying to cast an even wider net.
10 years ago, I test-drove a car at a used car lot—the Seattle equivalent of what CC writer Petrichor calls “some random place I knew nothing about.” I share his leeriness of those places. Aside from the fact that the pre-purchase inspection turned up some problems, the place struck me as shady.
About a month ago I test-drove a car at a new-car dealer. The car seemed very nice, but the subsequent talk with the salesman gave me pause. In hindsight, I think one thing was definitely a red flag. As to the other things, I’m not sure if they were red flags or just outside my prior experience. I spoke later with a friend out of state who has years of experience in dealerships, albeit from behind the parts counter, and has bought quite a few used cars.
When the salesman worked up an actual printed out-the-door price, it included the following:
- Some sort of insurance for $500 that would pay the value of the car plus $5,000 if it was totaled. My friend said you see this with a new car, to cover the depreciation that occurs when you drive your new car off the lot. Since this was a used car, I didn’t see the point.
- $800 for B&O (business and occupation) tax. In Washington state, we have B&O tax rather than corporate income tax. When I got home, I checked the dealership’s reviews on Yelp.com. There were some favorable ones but also some scathing ones. One person wrote, “[B&O tax] is a business tax that businesses pay in the course of business. … I find that Washington State law prohibits businesses from passing this tax to the consumer…. When I confronted the dealership with the WA code, they agreed to refund it.” This is the thing I definitely considered a red flag. The car was very nice, and I might have bought it if I hadn’t had these qualms about the dealer.
The salesman said, “If a car’s no good, we send it off the auctions. It’s not in our interest to sell you a bad car.” That makes sense, and in a perfect world I could believe it, no questions asked. As is, the cynic in me says, well, yes, he would say that. Assuming that a given dealer does sell only good cars, how do I avoid the bad ones?
I asked the salesman how he’d feel about my having my regular garage do a PPI on the car. He said that was doable, they’d done it before, but I’d have to sign a legal agreement saying that if the car passed muster, I’d definitely buy it for the price we’d negotiated. His argument seemed to be that if I was going to make the car unavailable to show to other prospective buyers for a day or two, they want to be fairly sure I’d buy it. The used-car lot 10 years ago didn’t require anything like this. My friend out of state said this sort of thing isn’t unheard of, but he didn’t say it’s standard procedure.
This text was prompted by Petrichor’s account of buying his Lexus GS350. On that post, Petrichor said that further digging showed the place was legit. How did he find out —Yelp.com, Better Business Bureau, word of mouth, other sources?
If any Curbsiders have any Seattle-specific recommendations, that would be great. At least I’m not looking for a Dodge Spirit R/T or a Lancia Fulvia Zagato.
I wouldn’t buy it from Glens.
Same for me, btw in the rear of the 1959 Dodge and 1964 Chevrolet wagon, is it a Ford Maverick or Mercury Comet?
It just so happens that for some years I took my cars to a shade tree mechanic named Glen. At one point I bought a car that he was curbstoning for another customer of his.
I have had the best luck lately purchasing used cars from CARMAX. Since I can’t stand the song and dance of haggling, this makes it a win for me, as they are typically fair price-wise, as I research things before I even walk into a dealer.
But if you’re looking for an eighth or ninth gen Civic, then the car you seek may be too old for that place. I like my used cars with very few miles. The 2019 Mazda CX-5 had only 29,236 at test drive, and the 2007 Mustang only had a mere 1,127 mile on it when I test drove it back in early 2008.
I’m in agreement here. I’m sure — SURE — that there is a lot of Carmax overhead on the price to cover their massive operation, but as I’m not the kind of person that likes to spend an entire day haggling, the sanity cost comes out in the wash. People were very nice and dealing with their financial arm was smooth and simple. They even gave me $2000 for an clapped-out 8th-gen Civic that I destroyed by attempting to drive it straight to the Carmax with an inoperable water pump. (they’re good cars, OP should get one, check that pump and the recalled engine block though)
I will say though, it’s been 5 years since I used them, they didn’t have to transport any vehicles for me, and I had to be there in person filtering out a LOT of ex-rentals and other cars that smelled like cigarettes.
I’m in Minneapolis, so I can’t help you with regards to a specific dealer, but I had a similar post-Covid experience. Like you, I’ve always bought my used cars from private parties. My last purchase needed to be a late model pickup to tow a camper we were buying, so the price was going to be a bit north of what I would be comfortable spending with a CL type purchase. I ended up finding my truck at a independent dealer who seemed to specialize in F150s coming off lease that he bought wholesale. He always has 10-15 of these on his lot, along with variety of trades he taken. I noted that he ran a full service garage and detail shop on the premises. I test drove a likely candidate and ended up buying it after getting a decent trade for my Highlander.
What worked for me with this transaction was 1) the cleanliness of the truck, the shop, showroom, etc. The guy seemed to be watching the details 2) the fact that he did his own prep on site 3) the lack of pressure in the sale…he just took my license, gave me the keys for a test drive and left me alone, 4) the asking price and trade in offer were both acceptable to me without the whole haggle dance, and 5) talking to another customer, a contractor, who said he would come in and buy 4-6 trucks at a time. Not very scientific, but there were no red flags, nothing gave me pause.
Sounds like a solid operation and one folks should support with their business! We have a couple of similar lots here in Houston that have been around a long time, family owned, mechanical and detail on-site….I like to send folks their way….
Sorry. I’m not selling mine. 2013 Acadia that runs very well. We’ve been friends since November 27, 2012.
There do seem to be fewer cars up for sale (Cash for Clunkers fallout still?) and more of those which do get listed seem to have been very (very!) used.
These days the relative build quality of cars is probably as high as it has ever been, but the [particular care and treatment a vehicle receives an mean the difference between lasting 250k+ miles and overheated sludgebucket at <=100k. For this reason I strongly prefer to buy from the previous owner rather than a dealership where that history is lost.
Where to find good candidates remains a challenging conundrum. The List of Craig is mostly flooded with curbstone (-adjacent) sellers recycling ads for unsaleable junk at exorbitant asking prices while the Face Place tends to serve up a mix of the desperately optimistic. The auction sites have really taken over as the primary venue for decent, interesting vehicles on the back of commentor labor evaluating the condition, but pricing at these venues continues to be unkind toward buyers and sales not uncommonly fraught with later discovery of significant misses.
Persistence, timing, readiness and a fair dose of luck have worked out mostly OK for me. I target a vehicle by type or model, set up recurrent searches for new results, check for new listings obsessively, set immediate times for showings of potential buys, and have money ready to go before another suitor can intervene.
This method has worked acceptably for family cars, less so for sporty toys and not at all (yet) for replacing my old truck. I have no idea where decent pickups get sold these days. Or maybe they don't.
The general retailing rate is .471% so that would mean that to incur a $800 B&O tax that the price before sales tax would need to be almost $170K!!!!
So yeah something very fishy about that dealer for sure. Note it is not illegal to build the B&O tax into the pricing, in fact you must to stay in business since it is part of your overhead, it is just that you can’t call it out as a separate line item added to the sales price.
Most of the cars I’ve purchased over the years have been from private parties or gov’t auctions but I have purchased a couple of cars from new car dealers, including 1 used car. The most recent dealer I’ve dealt with I showed up there because they had the specific vehicle I wanted. However they did treat me right and didn’t play a bunch of games in the F&I office so when my son was ready to buy his new truck we did go there to order it.
I mentioned this to a coworker a couple days later, in much less detail, just, “I test-drove this car but thought the dealer was shady.”
My coworker said, “Was it a [marque A] dealer in [suburb B]?”
I said, “No, it was a [marque C] dealer in [suburb D].”
A couple weeks later an online search turned up a Honda Civic at the latter dealer.
Carmax is the way to go for me.Can’t beat the 30 day return policy,24hr test drive& fix what may be wrong……They do not sell junk either……….and if you are not in a hurry you can get close to what you want……I’ve had good luck
I bought my (low mileage off-lease) Saab convertible from them 15 years ago. It was a seamless sale. Wisely got the extended warranty, which paid for itself time and again. A number of people I know who have gone to them over the years have had no complaints.
In 2013, I found the CarMax car I wanted listed in FL, paid them $350 to have it shipped to NC, and bought it. It had been in Michigan for its first four years. I discovered they’d shipped it to FL to sell because the driver’s side heat would turn to ice cold after 15 minutes. I wasted $300 changing the sensors and main controller. Eight years after taping over the vents, I learned on youtube I could replace the screwed up blend actuator without completely dismantling the dash.
Hope that ‘64 Chevy wagon at Glen’s doesn’t encounter any rainstorms.
I recall a few lots like Glen’s where you could buy an old beater, as is, for $100 bucks or so. They all disappeared by 1980 it seems.
Normally buy from a dealer both used and new. However, my sister swears by CarMax, but she advises about purchasing an extended warranty which CM has lived up to in her situation on two separate cars.
Current car is 12+ yrs old and making noises, so I have been browsing the web. Some dealers are offering $2.5k off sticker while the corresponding used market is dropping prices every 20 to 30 days. So different from just 3 yrs ago when there was a $400 surcharge for nitrogen in the tires!!
What ever you do, spend the bucks on a history report if not offered for free. May also want to look at Consumers Report New Car and Used Car editions. Not fool proof, but gives you some prospective on the car and latitude when negotiating.
PS: the ’64 Chevy wagon in the above photo brings back memories of me in the back on vacation trips. No fold up seat, just sitting in the back with all the luggage and a 75 lb metal ice chest. Thank God my Dad didn’t hit anything for I would have been squished by the ice chest.
Happy Motoring!!
Used car prices are softening these days, which is a win for the consumer. Carfax is your friend. Dealer reviews are essential, but keep in mind that many can review themselves. I personally like CarGurus for my search engine, as well as Cars.com.
Last year I was helping a relative long-distance land a Mustang GT; after a 3 month search we found one 2 states away at a BMW dealership. It was a bit pricier than the market average, but the car, history and dealership reviews were all pristine. We paid for a local inspection (well worth the $200) and got a detailed report of the pluses and minuses of a then 16-year old car with 115k miles on it. Sealed the deal and had it shipped. The car was exactly as expected once they received it.
There are a lot of scrupulous dealers out there, as well as of course unscrupulous ones. Legit reviews and word of mouth are tremendous resources.
Highly recommend that initial and final contact for a car of interest is via email so you have everything in writing, thus no surprises later.
Why do you like CarGurus and Cars.com in particular?
Two months ago, we bought a 2017 Wxyz from a new and used car dealer (same brand) 50 miles away. Had been specifically looking for the exact model (one year only, limited number) for a while, and until then could only find others in far corners of the country.
Found it using a combo of gurus and googles, ultimately on dealers website. Lower price than any other, and much closer. Only 42,000 miles on it, and very happy with the experience.
Carfax did show that the vehicle had been previously bought and sold by the same dealer. While they wouldn’t share the records, they did confirm that the previous owner returned it after one month because it wasn’t perfect for their needs. Well, it is for ours…
Should also add the 2017 replaced a 2005, so its quite a refresh (for us).
Only other purchase made in recent years was a 1995 Miata bought on BAT during early days of COVID. Sight unseen, matched expectations, and BAT even refunded the shipping cost as the shippers gig driver screwed up the delivery (thanks for the new tires!!). Highly recommended.
The salesman gave you a hint when he said that they wholesale the junkers. Get a look at the carfaxes for the cars you’re looking at. Carfax is far from perfect, but you’ll find out if the dealer bought it at an auction in a city where they dump three tons of salt on the roads per mile each year. That’s what the shady dealers do in the central Virginia town where I lived. They’d buy the cars in Buffalo, New York, where everyone knows to check for rust on two- and three-year-old cars. Then they’d sell them in a college town filled with rubes. If you’re looking for a car in Washington, look for a local car or one from a desert climate.
I found my car on Cargurus, which was listed by a small dealer. Reading reviews of dealers (or products) online is such a crapshoot as you tend to get everything great, or the worst of the worst, with of course the majority of people never bothering. I had a type of car in mind (manual wagon) , and a price I wanted to pay, and this met that criteria. I think the car is more important than where it comes from, although I would avoid a dealer like you described
I found my 2015 CMax also on CarGurus. Great selection with honest evaluation of the pricing and the dealer. Highly recommend trying CarGurus.
I sold a 2013 Ford Fusion to Carvana. Highest price of any of the “instant” cash offer sites and they came to pick it up. Did not nitpick the car, just had me sign some papers and handed me a check. Took all of 5 minutes. The price I received was about $1000 below what I could’ve had in a private sale, without the hassle.
I , for one , would love to have a Spirit R/T . A reputable engine builder/machineshop could solve the cam “overrunning ” problem. Or , you could always swap the motor for the Mitsubishi 3 liter. But I’d try my best to stick with the original motor. Remember, in it’s day, this was the fastest sedan in the world , right ?
I assume you’ve read Daniel Stern’s COAL on his R/T?
https://www.curbsideclassic.com/cars-of-a-lifetime/coal-1991-dodge-spirit-r-t-part-1-thats-the-spirit/
Yes , I have . Like I said , you could always swap in a Mitsubishi 3 liter V6. Hooked up to a five speed , that would be a cool ride. Or , how about the 24V version from a Stealth ?
It’s been awhile in shopping, but in 2013 I was on the hunt for a 2010 Toyota Venza. I had done the research on dimensions, maintenance history (thanks to Consumer Reports), add-ons (I specifically wanted the tow package with V6 power and AWD; instant deal-breaker without it), pricing, and I was willing to go anywhere within a thousand miles with an airport. Just as important, I had time as I wasn’t giving up or away my little Nissan truck that was my DD. My searches took me to CL (meh, couldn’t do regional or national searches), eBay (dealers seemed to like it), KBB (pricing and search), the car com site and a few others. If I got a hit and it was at a dealership, I always looked to see if it was still on the dealership’s own website. It took 8 months and it was the second hit, which was really close to my Raleigh house of all places. Rick Hendrick Toyota is a huge chain of dealerships and ran a Pre-Owned program, and I learned the car was a fully loaded specimen that was being returned after a 4 year lease deal by the same dealership and had 40K miles. On the curve the price was just above median, and a good deal given the bells and whistles (heated seats, nav system, stereo, sun roof, etc). The pre-own program didn’t haggle and so after about 20 minutes of test drive on various surfaces and speeds, I bought it with a 5 year note and paid it off in 3.5 years (two balloon payments plus rounding up). I still have it after 10 1/2 years, with minimal fuss–two batteries, two sets of tires, a bad front wheel bearing after 120K miles, and slavish on routine and recommended maintenance per owner’s guide.
I’m interested in this thread because we’ll likely get a hybrid as a next car. My wife has a 2011 CR-V with only 53K miles and she got that as an inheritance in 2016 and she drives locally, and I don’t have a feel for the quality of hybrids or even EVs on the second hand market. A car writer named Doug DeMuro has written extensively about liking CarMax and their extended warranty, and thus bought a Range Rover from them to test their willingness to honor their warranty (they did).
I’ve had decent luck by looking at the back row of franchise dealers. Many of them keep a few older but nice cars on the lot. I think they’re intended for the people who come in to buy a new car but find out they can’t get financed on one. Doesn’t stop anyone else from buying them, though.
I know several who recently have purchased from Enterprise Leasing and seem satisfied with their purchases. I recommended Enterprise in Durham area to my son and they gave him a trade in allowance and sent me a check for suggesting them. But that was at least 10 years ago and we all know a lot has changed from then.
Word of mouth.
My last two purchases were via the local cigar shop. They guys there know a thing or two and one of them still operates more than a few used car lots. So, I just start talking about finding something for my 16 year old kids and they start telling me what they would buy today if they were me. We discuss cars and trucks almost with each visit.
Then I’d check it out. Worked every time. My wife and I pay cash, and that still gets a discount around these parts.
Avalon = $7,000 This car didn’t sell. We got it for a song as you can see. The guy we bought it from runs a garage. He takes care of it for us.
I’m hardly one to recommend an online path to your second-hand dream ride, but
CarGurus worked for me, steering me toward the Honda of my dreams.
Their site let me choose the search radius from my home zipcode, what range of model years, maximum mileage, color, and even trim – gotta have that moonroof!
Also, filters to eliminate result vehicles with accident history, etc.
Got me into a 2010 Accord with 71,000 miles for around $8,000 in 2020 – the car that was waiting for me!
I put buying a car up there with having a root canal. I’ve been looking for just the right BMW 128i convertible for my wife for several years. Very specific wants … low mileage, any color other than white, black or gray, clear documentation of ownership, all maintenance records, manual transmission. I’ve done so much research on these cars, I feel like I know them backwards and forwards. I found (almost) the perfect one at CarMax. Had it shipped up from Atlanta for $200. The only thing we didn’t get was the manual transmission, but I’m not sure any of those even exist anymore. Neither of us are young anymore, so this is OK. It’s a 2013 (final year here in the states) red, two previous owners (first was a lease), 38,000 miles. All service performed at BMW dealerships and documented. Known issues with this car – mainly leaking gaskets- all previously fixed. The buying process took about a half an hour, and I was out the door. Did I pay too much? Yep. But I feel like ones in this kind of shape are getting to the bottom of their depreciation curve as there is a following for them and not many out there. BMW only sold 7000 of them in coupe and convertible form in the US in 2013. We’re still within the 30 day return window so if something goes wrong, they fix it or get it back. I still can’t believe Carmax offers that!
Staxman, I wish I had an authoritative ironclad answer as to how I came to trust the dealership I bought from. About the best I can say is this one didn’t exhibit the warning signs that had me running from others. The listing was the first thing to catch my attention. It looked professional with an accurate description of the car and no ALL CAPS OMG SEE YOURSELF IN THIS STYLISH LEXUS nonsense. The set of pictures was fairly thorough and they seemed to care about taking quality photos but not trying to cover up something with a bunch of editing, or dark indoor photos with low exposure that hides all detail. No thick slather of Armor-all on the interior. I then went to their website and started pawing through their inventory and got the impression that they targeted clean-title higher end vehicles. The dealership owners had bios of themselves on the website.
Then I scoured online reviews. I wasn’t looking for glowing reviews so much as a persistent pattern in the negative reviews. For instance, one California dealership that had a few of the A5s I was considering received numerous reviews from customers documenting shady practices in the financing or covering up flaws on the cars. Any dealer tacking on mandatory LoJack or VIN etching or other add-ons above the listed price is a red flag. Most people hate that and it shows up in the reviews.
The dealership I bought from had very few negative reviews and those few didn’t contain anything that alarmed me. A clean Carfax report was linked to the listing. That was enough to drive down for an in-person look.
The salesman was genuine. Nice but not too nice. Didn’t try to rush me into a test drive. Was fine to talk about the other interesting cars on the lot. Let me poke around the car *unattended* for as long as I wanted. Didn’t even try to come on the test drive with me (that’s a big one, I can’t stand the ride-a-long small talk salesman). He just handed me the keys. When I returned, he didn’t try to talk numbers. I started that conversation, asked him for a trade-in quote, then gave the old line of “I like the car, but let me talk to my wife first” and he didn’t seem to mind that at all. I spent another $25 on an AutoCheck report just in case they picked up something CarFax missed. The extended test drive, documented maintenance, and Lexus nameplate were enough that I chanced purchase without a PPI. I finished negotiations over the phone 2 days later, again with no pressure.
Others may have more instructive, specific guidelines for this but for myself I would advise taking it slow, not *needing* a car, knowing exactly what I wanted and what it should cost, and being entirely willing to walk away should anything not feel right with either the vehicle or the dealership.
The Camry we replaced with the Lexus was bought the same way and I never regretted that one.
We bought a 2018 Sierra SLT last July. It was from a dealer I’ve dealt with for 24 years. The truck was a clean unit, only 32k on the odometer and we only did it to get rid of her dad’s Equinox which was way under water.
Well, now after 13,000 more miles, the transmission is going south. We have an extended warranty, great. But there are no transmissions available, and no parts available due to this being “a known issue.”
So now, at 61, I’m back out looking. Not happy at all.
But I cannot blame the dealer. They didn’t build the truck.
I’m in Tennessee so I can’t offer any suggestions.
But I can understand your frustration.
Sir. I can assure you the hood on this Dodge is definitely not sprung. They’re all like that. Now this fine 64 chevy wagon runs so hard the paint blew off the roof. That’s definitely not rust. You seem like a decent fellow so im going to offer easy terms at only 29% apr. Now just sign here…
I bought a lot of good older used cars in my day but have about sworn off them. The days of elderly folks who *knew* a car was used up by 90k miles and wou happily sell it for $3k are long gone. Besides, my best used cars always found me rather than the other way around.
Private party ads are loaded with flippers and dealers are often still shady. I would probably go with CarMax – I have known several happy customers, though I don’t think there are many great deals to be had. But you are paying for a good warranty/return policy, so there’s that.
I’ve used Carfax in the past, but I know there are a number of sites like this–AutoCheck, InstaVIN, etc.:
https://www.qwant.com/?client=ext-firefox-sb&q=vehicle+history+reports&t=web
Is one better than another? Any chance of one site picking up info about a given car that the other sites missed? I suspect not, but it doesn’t hurt to ask.
Based on the comments, I may have to take a closer look at Carmax.
Thanks to all who responded.
I wish I could still find shady used car lots like the picture Glenn’s ! .
I have no idea how to find a good used car much less a good one, I’ve dumped more than the purchase price of my 2001 Ranger into it but I’m still quite happy with it .
One thing : if the AC doesn’t work, either immediately get a _minimum_ $1,500.00 discount or walk away ! .
The primary reason I bought my old Ranger was the AC worked perfectly .
It’s always been reliable and that’s paramount to me, non functioning AC usually means low co$t / quality collision repair or serious lack of maintenance .
Let us know what you wind up with the the story therein .
-Nate
I wish I could still find shady used car lots like the picture Glen’s ! .
I have no idea how to find a good used car much less a good one, I’ve dumped more than the purchase price of my 2001 Ranger into it but I’m still quite happy with it .
One thing : if the AC doesn’t work, either immediately get a _minimum_ $1,500.00 discount or walk away ! .
The primary reason I bought my old Ranger was the AC worked perfectly .
It’s always been reliable and that’s paramount to me, non functioning AC usually means low co$t / quality collision repair or serious lack of maintenance .
Let us know what you wind up with the the story therein .
-Nate