We had a lot of good nominations about the easiest cars to work on. How about the opposite? And let’s expand that a bit, up to 1990, so that we can include this 1985 Honda vacuum line chart. Yes, just the vacuum lines. Ah, the good old days…
So let’s hear your nominations for what you never want to deal with again. Or wouldn’t wish on your worst enemy.
In my experience, of all the vehicles I’ve owned, the winner hands down is the Jaguar XJ12C. Nothing is simple on this vehicle. I replaced the coolant pump years ago, took many months of spare time, involved removal of the bonnet, grille, radiator, condenser etc. Got it all back together in time for a “Battle of the Brits”. Took first in class; on the way home it shot the coolant temperature sensor out of its grommet, along with most of the coolant. Flatbedded it home, parked it in the garage and haven’t touched it since. Absolutely beautiful car though. It’s looking for a new home…
I’m not a mechanic, but a 12-cylinder Jaguar was going to be my top nomination as well. Almost uniformly negative comments about working on them, from what I’ve seen.
Honorable Mention, perhaps, for the early Aston Martin Lagondas with their primitive CRT screens and generally awful electrical systems.
I have a 75 XJ12C and while I agree that is is a challenge to work on it, particularly the first year version of the Bosch/Lucas fuel injection, I get àn immense feeling of
satisfaction from completing even the most minor repair. I enjoy having my brain stretched trying to figure out why the Jaguar engineers decided to create such unique solutions to what I figured were very common problems.
I saw a Renault (maybe an Alliance?) that had the oil filter between the AC compressor and alternator. One had to be removed to change the oil.
“from what I’ve seen”
So not from your own experience? I think it should be the rule that only own experiences can be nominated. It is too easy to replicate general thoughts.
A fair point, but part of the question was what vehicle “would you not wish on your worst enemy.” I think one almost-universally viewed as being a maintenance nightmare qualifies on that score. I applaud Mr. Gardner’s approach to his Jaguar as an enjoyable challenge and not something to dread, however.
Mid-1970s through mid-1980s (basically early smog-era) cars would be my suggestion, at least going by personal experience. My son’s ’84 Mustang L with the 2.3 engine was a nightmare to keep running. It was pre-ODB, but you could put a jumper wire in and it would blink codes on the dashboard that were sometimes helpful, mostly not.
Yes, I recall becoming conversant in Ford’s EEC IV system which required jumper wires and an analog dwell meter. Counting the swings of the needle and wondering if the delay was part of a number or a gap between numbers.
GM had a system like that in the early ’80s where you jumped two leads under the dash and it would flash codes on the dash, using the check engine light IIRC. Auto parts stores sold a fancy plug for like $25 that did nothing but jump those wires when you attached it, but they made it seem like there was some computer chip in it and the part was necessary.
Prior to OBD II dealerships had digital readers that could read them like modern code readers, and there were other scan tools independent shops could use with adapters and program cartridges(sort of like a Nintendo Game Boy) to read various makes. They were extremely expensive tools for DIYers, it’s actually somewhat laudable the OEMs provided that “count the blinks” option as much of a pain it was.
NGS (Next Generation Star Tester) was the Ford tool. Ran about $1500 around 1999 when I bought one while at the dealership. All the software was on memory cards, was also capable of reflashing PCMs via a flash memory card.
https://www.popscreen.com/prod/MTgwOTUzMzEw/Ford-Rotunda-Hickok-NGS-New-Generation-Star-Tester-Accessories
That’s exactly the one I was thinking of! I didn’t realize it was Ford specific at the time(though probably because the clip cars I trained on were mostly Ford’s)
Pre-OBD2 Chrysler, too; but you didn’t need a jumper, only the key which you cycled ON-OFF-ON-OFF-ON and then counted flashes on the Check Engine Light. Chrysler maintained that “Key Dance” system into later models, only the fault codes would display on the instrument panel.
Sorry for the off topic thread drift…this made things EASIER.
EEC IV was a breeze when this came along. Used to flag an easy 70 hours a week on driveability, even warranty work. It was quite the tool in its time, was updated for EEC V/OBD2, and didn’t become obsolete until well into the 2000s.
I nominate the Citroen SM, that Maserati hybrid thing. I bet there’s not a single reliable, simple part on it. Gordon Baxter had some kind of car, someone said it was a Peugeot, which he wrote up for C/D as Ol Herpes which was unfixable. The Mechanic said the wiring was made up of magic and moonbeams, and don’t EVER bring it back, is one memorable slight misquote.
I don’t think he ever did say what Ol’ Herpes was. Magic and moonbeams might have been more reliable.
My 1980s FoMoCo Panther experiences were not bad, usually. But I was sure glad I chickened out and took my son’s 89 MGM to the mechanic to replace the failing water pump that had been installed by UAW guys some 25 years earlier. He got to deal with the broken bolts.
The Autolamp switch in the dash was pretty nasty too – trying to work with connectors crumbling from age/heat in an area that you could not see but only feel. I think I still have the scars on my hands from the cuts. I remember being really annoyed by the lack of room under the dash on that car.
Rover 3500 p4 with those inboard discs. Don’t forget that high end luxury cars were never designed for home mechanics. What will the classic collector think of current German cars in 50 years time?.
I think you mean the P6?
My 1979 BMW 733 was a bit of a bear when I owned it in the early 1990s. Back then parts were hard to come by. No internet meant limited retailers. Most parts were dealer-only, and they wanted a fortune.
The car itself was relatively complex for 1979 with early EFI, and independent rear suspension. But it seems simple today.
@ Mark Hobbs; there shan’t be any current German cars in 50 years time.
This is what happens to a 10 year old German car which cost over 100K new:
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/246216833790148/?ref=search&referral_code=undefined
It’s about the same price as a 5 year old Corolla with missing hubcaps.
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/686135875614663/?ref=search&referral_code=undefined
German cars are really great leased and then have short second owner lives when second owner gets a $2000 bill for routine maintenance. Then they go to a third owner who thought, how bad can it be? It’s such a NICE car and it’s the same price as a five year old Corolla with missing hubcaps, and third owner gets a $3000 bill for routine and deferred maintenance, and then cuts his or her losses and trades it in on . . . a five year old Corolla. Goes via buy here pay here lot to fourth owner, who is an aspiring Instagrapper or whatever and needs something that has “style” and drives it until it blows up, dash all lit up like a Christmas tree.
I’ll bet you nothing like this makes it much beyond 15, let alone 25. It doesn’t help that German cars have very complex engineering and bizarre parts which are limited production so once that optical steering wheel shaft position sensor goes, and BMW stopped making it/changed the design, your car is dead.
Speaking of the Corolla, I wonder how Toyota and Honda fair in this competition. Not as easy as a domestic, but not as difficult as the Germans and exotics. I still love the Mercedes engineering credo of “why make it simple when we can make it complicated”.
Someone once told me that while the Asian products were supremely reliable and last a long time, when they did break, they were difficult and expensive to repair because they didn’t use individual parts like a domestic, but enclosed sub-systems.
Overall, the Asian stuff is comparable to domestics- Generally simple to work on, but on occasion a real hassle.
Here are the two biggest issues I encounter:
1) Import parts prices are generally higher than the domestic products (Asian parts because they redesign parts more often, for European parts add complexity and higher overhead). Of course, Asian parts tend to last longer, helping to mitigate the cost difference.
2) ANY system is a pain to work on when the engineers prioritize component design requirements or assembly line efficiency over serviceability. I recall a 1.9 Ford cam position sensor held in with 1 bolt (good) but you had to remove the intake manifold before pulling it out of the head (bad).
I had a 2000 Acura TL for six years and put 130,000 km on it. In all that time the only replacement was for ignition coils.
My buddy has a mint 2001 TL which has 180,000 km on it now. In ten years it’s been tires, brakes and oil changes.
My direct experience is that parts for the high volume Japanese parts were no more expensive than anything else and they need to be replaced more often. For example, the alternator and starter in my buddy’s TL have already gone two decades. That’s pretty good service from parts that were good to start with.
Sometimes, you cannot just buy individual parts from Toyota, only a quite expensive (and useless) set. Case in point: my brother had a 1993 Corolla, which was our ultimate favourite family car for fifteen years (prior to the devastating rear-end collision). The window winder on driver’s side broke, dropping the glass window down. We identified a broken cog as culprit and proceed to obtain that part. Toyota part department told us we had to buy the entire window winder set for $175. Incensed, my brother figured a way to repair the broken cog by using the bike parts for $5 or so. Eventually, he did the same with two other window winders when they broke at later dates.
My father’s Mercedes-Benz E 280 (W 210) had erratic HVAC operation. The Mercedes-Benz service department wanted about €2,500 for the new HVAC and another €1,000 for labour. I perused the YouTube videos and owner forums to repair the HVAC system. Total cost: €20 for new solar sensor and two rubber washers. It took me an hour to replace the parts.
It’s matter of getting cars serviced by the repair garages and by the owners who use the forums and videos to service their vehicles themselves for cheaper workarounds.
Where I live in Vancouver, British Columbia, there are plenty of old German cars on the road and especially loads of old Golfs. There is a 1980 300SD parked on the street right around the corner from my home. There is a 350SDL not far up the road from that.
German luxury cars are money pits in every sense of the word but they kind of have that market sewn up. They make absurd profits on them but that doesn’t mean every Jetta is a disaster because it is not. The Mk VII Golf is as reliable as anything else on the market and a lot more fun to drive than most.
A used E or C class is in fact a pretty nice car for the money and not disastrous for reliability.
Let’s be realistic. For every old GM sled still on the road, there were several hundred thousand that were not.
I still have flashbacks about my buddy’s Fiat X19. 1.5 liters of gerbil power stuffed into a tiny, jagged package. Cars are not supposed to rust in Colorado!
I actually see quite a few old German cars on the road.
I do love in Germany though.
Apart from the engines, I remember the sheetmetal in Chryslers of the early 80’s (Omni, Horizon, TC3, etc.) being made of rusty razorblades; I was working at Dad’s repo lot and thus constantly breaking the door panels down to replace locks that had been picked or broken. Everything was impossible to get to in the doors and under the dash.
Plastics that were 3-4 years old would crumble in your fingers; electrical wiring would fall apart at the slightest touch.
My nominee as well. My brother had an ’80 Horizon…ugh. We had ’em at work too, but at least I never had to work on them.
Jensen Interceptor! Been there, done that, never again. Diesel Econolines get an honorable mention, but the really nasty ones didn’t happen until the 6.0L Powerstroke in 2003.
I’ve read that the complex, intimidating #HVAC system on the early 1960’s Lincoln Continental made engineers and mechanics go screaming into the night.
Yes. Not sure about the 58-60 Lincolns, which might have been similar – they also have the heater ducts to the rear seats going through the front armrests. The 61-63 Lincolns have a separate heater core and fan on each side, and another fan for the AC which looks integral but actually acts like a hang-on unit.
Everything – temperature, direction, AC, and fan(s) speed is controlled by one knob. The temperature is controlled thermostatically with vacuum power as are all the blend doors. On the (old) one I had the left, right, or both heater/defrosters could come on unpredictably – no doubt leaks or sticky vacuum servos somewhere in the miles of vacuum lines. There has never been a more complicated heater/def/AC system for no apparent reason. Three systems adding up to far less than the sum of the parts. (Could you have different temperatures or anything on each side? No, of course not).
Oh, and the wipers are hydraulic, run off the power steering pump. Vacuum locks (mine actually worked fine).
Still the most incredible and beautiful mass production sedan ever though.
I could say my ’63 Thunderbird is the worst, but there a few family/friend cars in my past I never want to think about again:
1. My sister’s ’89 Probe. I had to change the alternator in a 7-11 parking lot, and one of the steps was to drop the exhaust system from its rubber mounts. It was terrible.
2. My friend’s ’90 (does that count?) BMW 525i and its heater core. I had the whole dash out of the car and I stopped reading the manual before the important step: Don’t remove the metal heater tubes. The new core came with the tubes, so I removed them. NEVER REMOVE THOSE TUBES! I got it back together after a day and a half. That part can’t be blamed on the car, but nothing I saw on that car looked particularly easy to work on.
I was a pretty young guy when I did both of those jobs, so maybe I was just a little more impatient back then.
I had a ’94 525i and did the heater core myself, not bad at all but I also did not remove the tubes. Loved that car but when the second GM automatic transmission went out I sent it to the junkyard.
Of the cars I’ve owned and worked on, our water boxer Vanagon was probably the worst. Complicated and often difficult to reach the bits that failed.
Changing a 6.0 litre ford diesel in an F350 without taking the cab off, hands down for me.
Had to dismantle the engine mounts in situ, and remove the oil pan to get it out. Grille was off, Rad support, even the drag link and front bumper. Miserable job.
Would have been faster to pull the cab.
“Would have been faster to pull the cab.”
Some might think Kevin is joking, but Powerstroke techs routinely lift the cab to access engine components.
Most techs could have that cab lifted off in about 45 minutes or less. Makes head gasket replacement a breeze. Was quite handy when the 3 valve mod motors had the spark plug issues.
People like to ridicule Ford for “having to pull the cab” but fact is the truck is set up so it is easy to remove the cab, so it does save a lot of time overall for a number of procedures.
Hits close to home, but 1989 Thunderbird SC. Can’t change half the spark plugs from the top without removing the intercooler tubes, when the head gaskets go most of the time is spent removing said supercharger system, when the heater core goes the dash needs to fully come out, if the AC evaporator goes you have to cut a hole in the heater box since there’s no access panel and Jerry rig your own home made cover secured with duct tape(seriously, that’s basically the factory service procedure), when the upper ball joints wear out the control arm nuts take quarter turns due to tight packaging, if the fuel pump or sending unit goes bad the wide center mounted fuel tank requires dropping the exhaust and disconnecting extremely hard to reach filler/hoses, the power steering rack can’t be removed without first disconnecting the lines that are obscured by the crossmember, and when they get rusty(and boy do they) every fastener going into a captured nut will either snap or break the nut away inside the stamping so it just spins and spins, requiring cutting and extraction, and the ABS system is virtually unfixable when something goes wrong.
Most difficult vehicle to work on, even by the dealer who sold it to me was a 2010 Chevy diesel van. Made most 90’s stuff look easy. Complete body had to be lifted off the frame to replace the injectors. Even then the tech was frustrated. Nice warranty claim though. Dealership closed soon after and building demo’d to make way for an Audi dealership. Coincidence?
As an Audi dealership the service procedures didn’t change much.
Search “Audi” and “Service Position.”
My 2006 A3 2.0T timing belt was a day and a half of labor.
Mini – small but long fingers required.
With steel tendons.
It has already been mentioned but by far the worst car to work on from my experience is a V-12 Jaguar. These motors went into cars which were designed for a straight six. It means all the fuel and ignition systems are between the V of the engine.
If a Jaguar V-12 has a no-start, it is impossible to diagnose unless the car is running. We’d start by checking the fuel pressure. If that was fine, the only way to fix it was to throw expensive parts and labour at it.
Yes, this is true and typically British.
Four fuel pumps if I remember correctly?
Yes, for the frankenfuel-injection on the V-12 there were two lift pumps and two high pressure pumps because there were two fuel tanks.
If one was gone then the rest were not far behind.
Ka’ching!
’82 XJS with the cursed Jaguar V12 comes into the CAR WIZARD’s shop. Can he get it running?
This Car Wizard also got the Jaguar 5.3-litre V12 engine to install in his Chevelle, but he planned to replace its complicated fuel injection system with two 4BBL carburettors and custom-made manifolds.
To make a long story short, he got a dud V12 engine from ebay seller so he ordered another V12 engine from a reputed seller.
I know it’s outside of the specified range, but nothing was worse than getting a Contour/Mystique repair order. They generally would have at least half a dozen recalls, with the worst being replacement of the engine wiring harness, with the worst being for a V6.
Exfordtech, I had the 4-cyl Contour. Was it fairly OK to work on, or was it almost as headache-y as the V6?
(Mine had few troubles, actually, and there was lots I liked about the car.)
A number of repairs on the Porsche 944 were complicated by having components buried under other components, so you’d have to dismantle quite a bit of the car to get to the part that needed replacing. For example, replacing the sending unit on the gas tank required dropping the transaxle and lowering the tank, instead of providing a removable access plate in the cargo area floor, like other makes do. Similarly, I once had a minor coolant leak from a small hose; it required hundreds of dollars in labor to remove the fan and other parts so that the mechanic could access it.
I hated working on the Ford Escort I drove in college, because the oil filter was not only stuck between the block and the firewall – there was also an electrical connector with a point edge that stuck out above it, and dug into flesh as you turned the filter to get it On and off, because no filter wrench I found could reach the filter. To this day, almost 40 years later, I have a faint scar on my right forearm from doing oil changes. I traded it for a Corolla once I graduated, and was thrilled to see the oil filter was facing the front of the car, in plain view and totally unobstructed.
FWIW, I think your mechanic misled you or wasn’t the right guy for the job. There is most definitely a round plastic access panel for the fuel level sender in the trunk floor of all 944’s. You can see the round open access hole in the attached photo. Nor is there anything complicated about replacing any coolant hose on a 944 NA, and certainly not at the front of the motor. The heater hoses at the firewall can be a bit frustrating, but they are nothing unusual.
If I were going to nominate a Porsche for this list, it would be the 964 generation 911, which just squeaks in under 1990. Even basic maintenance tasks like replacing all 12 spark plugs or adjusting the valves are miserable with the engine in the car. Evaporator core replacement requires both dash removal AND the fuel tank to be removed from the frunk. Just… yikes.
Those early Hondas were a pain for the number of vacuum lines that is for sure. The CVCC engine had a couple of real pain points. The lower bolts for the intake/exhaust manifolds were near impossible to get to with the head on the engine. So the way to do a head gasket was to leave that attached. The 3 bbl carb also was difficult to remove the nuts and of course in both cases you have a mess of vacuum hoses to reconnect. Thankfully the diagrams were good and each hose was marked with the circuit number along its length. One of the things that was easy was burping the cooling system they included a bleeder valve in the intake to get the air out. It did throw me for a loop the first time I did a head gasket on one since it does look like a vacuum hose could attach to it. So I spent some time going over each of the connections and looking for the lost hose. I finally gave up and went to the boss who told me that’s the bleeder valve.
In a lighter vein, older readers will remember Jack Benny’s Maxwell, and possibly Connie Brooks’ car from Our Miss Brooks, that was always being repaired (which of course gave Walter Denton the excuse to drive his ‘favorite English teacher’ to school every day).
As a professional wrench since ’88 Im not sure which was worse – replacing a starter on a Chevette with power brakes, replacing ALL of the coolant hoses on a mid 80’s Toyo-van, or replacing a steering gear on a Citation.
I do not miss those days at all.
I have done more X-car steering gear jobs than I care to remember. The nightmares still haunt me. Second on my list is engine R&R on early ’80s S-10 Blazers with the 2.8L V6
Mid 70’s Bluebird All American. front engine transit style school bus/ Wanderlodge. Garbage Cat 1160 or 3208 stuffed in there so tight that the factory had to shave off the upper horizontal flange of the “C” channel frame to clear the valve covers. Front axle had to be removed to pull the transmission. Most work was done while kneeling on the floor. The left bank head gasket was a real treat.
Most things French!
Of the cars I’ve owned the Citroen GSA was the most difficult to work on
Mr Hubnut changes the oil on his GSA:
I have got bored with hubnut’s uselessness
I loved my GSA, but to change plugs you remove the headlights!
Try pulling a transmission on a mid 80’s S10 Blazer/Jimmy. Start by removing the front bumper! The floor pan was so tight to the drive train you could not get at the bellhousing bolts. Even using your longest extensions and swivel socket. Some guys would bash the hell out of the floor pan to get at the bolts.
Hope you don’t own any of the V8 diesels in a pickup truck, there are lots of seemingly minor repairs that require the cab to be removed.
I was at the Ford plant in Louisville Kentucky in 1995 for pilot truck inspections. At that time Ford had three assembly lines working. Heavy Duty, Medium Duty and Light Duty. In an area off the side of the end of the light duty line they had a 1 ton pickup on the hoist, They were trying to either remove or install the turbo exhaust pipe. This pipe runs along the right side of the trans then goes up the right side of the trans to connect to the turbo that sits at the rear end of the V between the heads. Lots of cussing going on.
Air chisel was the way to go. Cut the pinch weld on either side of the top bolts, fold the flap that was created over and now you can remove those bolts.
The most difficult car I ever worked on was a 1982 Buick Skylard (yes, the misspelling is intentional). The engine bay caught fire due to the fuel leak. The fire melted lot of spaghetti tubes for emission control. Haynes manual didn’t show any diagram of tubes going from one to other. I spent days scouting the secondhand car forecourts for similar cars to mine. I took photos and made the diagrams. It took me five weeks to finish the repair. The car ended up sucking the fuel faster than the black hole can suck the planets…
Another thing is the long bolt attaching the subframe to the body broke in half. To access the top half, I had to cut the hole in the driver’s footwell and peel away the sheetmetal. My father welded the sheetmetal together afterwards.
Don’t get me started on replacing the spark plugs in the V6, especially the ones facing the firewall. One wrong move: broken ceramic parts…
My old high school friend owned Citroën DS. His mum would let me know if he’s working on DS or not so I could decide to visit him or not.
Anything with a CCC quadrajet fed olds 307. Absolute nightmares……
Unless I missed it, I can’t believe we got this far and no one else mentioned the 70’s Chevy Monza V8 where you had to jack the engine off its mounts to replace the rearmost plug on one side.
Someone mentioned 60’s Lincolns. It’s even worse if you have a convertible, with a combination of electrical, mechanical and hydraulic systems that are poetry in motion when they work in harmony, but which would make Rube Goldberg proud. There must have been a point in the 70’s that I missed, being a bit too young, when Lincoln dealers no longer had anyone willing to work on them and the first or second owners unloaded them.
Heater cores are another recurring issue. In some cases I have wanted to know if someone has any footage from the factory that explains how they levitated a heater core in the air and built the rest of the car around it.
As a general comment I would say the most difficult to work on was the one you didn’t want to work on at the time but HAD to. Be it yours or a revenue job. Things just tended to go south real fast.
My top 3 [in no specific order]:
1. Rolls-Royce Silver Shadow V8. Especially brake jobs.
2. Jaguar V-12, all versions.
3. And those Chrysler cars that required the Turbo Encabulator for diagnosis. Without that tool it’s almost impossible to diagnose, much less repair, those engines.
To learn more about the turbo encabulator, it can be viewed here:
I’ve never seen that before! That’s hilarious!
Aaron65,
I’m glad you enjoyed the video. It was planned as an April Fool’s joke for MoPaR techs all around the country, and was released for viewing on 1 April [1985?]
The young man in the video, my friend Craig Handley, has had quite a career, and is a past President of the Packard Club!
Heh. Those vacuum lines… I know that diagram too well. I had a 1985 Honda Civic S, the last year before fuel injection, and the awful California-emish carbatooter was a nightmare that killed the engine @ about 50% of take-offs from stops. It’d just die in the middle of intersections. After too many trips to the dealer Honda eventually replaced the fuel tank, pump, lines, intake, and that garbage carb. It ran OK after that, but I got rid of it ASAP.
The crank position sensor on RWD Volvos has to be the most difficult thing I’ve had to replace, so far. Like, three 1/4″ extensions and u-joints to get that one stupid 10mm bolt out… almost easier to pull the the transmission.
Some guys just get “allergic” to certain vehicles or certain jobs.
I just hated seeing a Unibody Ford with the narrow engine bay pull into the shop. It was a relief to do brake jobs on them, instead of spark plugs or exhaust manifolds.
Middle-70s Ford 4×4 pickups, where removing the transmission crossmember meant the frame sagged, and you’d have to pry-bar the damned thing back in place.
The Ford Modular engine, when they’re not denting the hood from spark plugs spitting out of the holes, the plugs are so seized in the head that the plugs either break, or destroy the aluminum threads in the head. Ford should be forced to recall every one ever built, apologize to the customer, crush the vehicle, and buy the former owner a Chevy or Ram.
Early Porsche 911 with point ignition and carbs were my most difficult tuneup jobs. Standard spark plugs and leaded gas meant frequent trips underneath between the cam covers to change them. Two triple barrel carbs were tricky and somewhat delicate to adjust. My experience with average European cars did not prepare me for this.