Some memories are so powerful you can still recollect them over sixty years later. Such are the memories of my first ride in a GM TDH 5302 “New Look” coach circa 1962.
I imagine a large portion of our CC readers are younger than Paul and myself, and your experiences, if any, with the GM New Look were when they were already well-worn and ragged. That’s a shame – the buses were so well built and dependable that many operators kept them around past their prime while providing little in terms of upkeep or maintenance.
But brand new out-of-the-box, these buses were a revelation – especially compared to what I was used to riding. My bus experience up to that point had been the Marmon-Herrington trolleybus and the GM Old Look, with an occasional Flxible Clipper used on suburban routes. As I mentioned in the earlier M-H article, they were quiet and accelerated smoothly, but rode extremely harsh on their steel springs. The Old Looks were well built, but I had three complaints. One, they were very dark inside – the floor was black rubber, the seats a very dark green, and the sides up to the windows the same shade of green – with the windows being very small. When riding in them I always had a sense of darkness. Second, they were loud – the inline 6-71 diesel wasn’t well muffled and the unique Jimmy two-cycle scream was very evident. Lastly, the Allison V-Drive two-speed automatic transmission meant your neck muscles got a workout, as the low first gear upshifted to the direct-drive second gear with a loud clunk and a distinct lurch.
The New Looks were exactly the opposite. While the floor was still black, the seats were a much lighter shade of green, and the sides were white with a green shooting star pattern. But the biggest difference was the large front windshield and bigger forward-canted side windows which allowed much more light to stream in. The new 6V-71 engine and updated VH transmission were both quieter and smoother. Then there was the sensation of solidity. It felt like a block of granite.
I’ve ridden in a lot of buses since then, some brand-new, but none had the sensation of quality of the New Look. While they do their job competently and I don’t mean this in a derogatory sense, the one word I would associate with modern transit buses, at least those in North America, is “cheap.”
Jim, I find it interesting that your first ride(s) in a New Look bus was around 1962. Somewhere locally here I read this design hit our streets in `59. Perhaps back then these buses were released in ‘waves’ across the country? Not sure.
You’re correct Will – the first New Looks were introduced in the summer of ’59 – Columbus received a batch in late ’59 and another in 1960, with more thereafter. The line near our house didn’t convert to New Looks until 1962.
Thank you Jim, for your great work as the Curbside Classic Bus Historian, and expert. Always enjoy your work.
As the GM New Looks often remained in service for two decades, or more, they did not age well. I rode many from the late 1970’s through to the 1990’s. And I considered them obsolete, for much of that time. Even by late ’70s and early ’80’s standards, they felt extremely slow and ponderous. If you had to be somewhere, these were among the last vehicles to consider. I found their heaviness a negative, as they were so slow to respond. Tank-like, in a bad way. As newer transit buses, drove more like smaller, better-performing vehicles. I grew to dislike the New Looks, as being a worst choice transit experience.
They were drafty, rattled badly, leaked water, and the vinyl seating, hard and basic. I could see how they were a transit revelation in the early ’60’s, they were a bane to transit users, by the late ’70s. The two notable improvements I saw on them in their late stage, was the addition of rear double doors, and automatically opening rear doors.
The New Looks were the basis for the very early GMC Canada articulated buses, which were a transit revelation at the time. I did appreciate riding those units.
A lot depended on how a New Look was maintained, and the climate it operated in. I rode on many Santa Monica Municipal New Looks, from 15 year old (at the time) 5303’s to new 5307’s (including #5180, the last New Look built). Santa Monica was well known for having a first rate maintenance program, the streets in the area were relatively smooth, and of course the weather was great. These conditions resulted in little difference in riding experience between new and veteran New Looks. The other properties in my area, the Los Angeles RTD and Culver City Municipal, also had good maintenance programs and kept their New Looks on the road for many years without much degradation in riding experience. Most often the loudest thing in an old Southern California New Look was the Grant Electrolock farebox that was common out here! The worst transit coach experience I remember was the AM General. New or old, didn’t make much difference.
Santa Monica had an excellent reputation for their transit fleet maintenance! Probably why Ottawa bought twelve Ex-Santa Monica buses.
Somewhat ironically, the transit service in my city leased, and then bought, twelve Ex-Santa Monica New Look buses in the mid-1990s. I recall riding at least two of them. As the upper bodies were painted all white with no branding, before they were later painted In OC Transpo’s red and white colour scheme. I recall the bodies and seats were in excellent condition, the windows rattled less, but the slow acceleration, and general ponderous handling of the basic very heavy design were there. The then new Orion VI, accelerated and handled so much better than the New Looks. Almost car-like in their maneuverability. I recall, OC Transpo had to advise drivers to resist accelerating too rapidly from stops. As passengers were not used to the greater speed, maneuverability, and less inertia of the smaller, and lighter buses. I recall the difference. You would get pushed hard towards the back of the bus, if the drivers accelerated too quickly. People were getting hurt. It felt dramatically different riding in them. Much lighter, and more car-like. It was an adjustment for some riders. And drivers, I would presume.
They did not have the seating capacity of traditional high floor buses. But the new buses were a revelation in modern performance and handling. You could really move in those now gone Orion VI buses.The Orions genuinely felt like hot rods in those first transitional years, as the New Looks were phased out for brand new low floor designs.
https://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php/Ottawa-Carleton_Regional_Transit_Commission_1756-1758,_1760-1761,_1763-1768,_1770
Two oddities of this unique articulated GM Canada version of the 1982-only GM New Look, are visible in this pic.
The clumsy setup/presentation to riders, of the early design articulating section. And the single rider seats, visible in the upper left. The single rider seats, being very desirable for passengers who appreciated privacy. The forward section of these articulated New Looks being a very comfortable place. Because of the far isolation from the engine, and solidness of the ride.
they felt extremely slow and ponderous. I found their heaviness a negative, as they were so slow to respond. Tank-like, in a bad way.
So you used to drive these? That’s what it sounds like.
I don’t have ready info at hand, but I’d be very surprised if these weren’t lighter than any subsequent transit buses for an equal size. They felt vastly lighter and nimbler than the old look GM buses, having driven both of them. And I had no problem whipping these around; I found them surprisingly nimble and quick.
Sounds like it was a driver issue, not a bus issue.
They were slower and less maneuverable, compared to buses like the Orion VI. I’ve rode enough New Looks and modern buses, to feel the difference. And rode some Old Looks, in my childhood.
During the transitional period in the late 1990’s to modern low floor designs, many passengers were not used to the greater acceleration of the new generation of buses. The New Flyer Invero was another bus my city bought many of. They too, would push passengers hard backwards, if accelerated too rapidly. I recall newspaper articles at the time, addressing the topic.
The Orion VI was not designed for many decades of use. However the Inveros, here have been in service since the turn-of-the-century, in some instances. In a harsh climate. No question, they are rugged buses.
The difference was quite noticeable. I’m impressed, many of these now old Invero’s remain in service here. And still look in great condition.
Perhaps you have not rode extensively on either of these specific buses. As they were very impressive. The Orion VI was downright spritely. And the Invero can really scoot. Though, they are loud.
FWIW, the New Flyer Inverno straight diesel transit bus was powered by either a 280 or 330 hp Cummins. The GM new look buses had a 290 hp diesel. I used to get written up by old ladies who said I accelerated to quickly and drove way too fast.
But in lieu of 0-30 0r 045 mph stats, I’m not going to debate this subjective issue further. But undoubtedly newer buses were going to accelerate faster; it’s just like new cars and trucks. As to “pushing passengers hard backwards”, I’ve yet to experience that on any transit bus.
I will tell you that much of it is driving style. Give me a good-running 8V71 New Look, and I’d be happy to take on one of these. 🙂 I once actually passed the bus on my route that was supposed to be 20 minutes ahead of me. He gave me quite a look.
The Orion VI and the Invero were a revelation in transit riding. Truly, a surprise to experience, coming from riding in New Looks for the previous twenty years. The Orion especially stands out, in my memory. More drama with the Invero, as the exhaust really booms. You can hear them blocks away sometimes, when accelerating.
As a passenger, you had to be ready to grab a safety handle, as virtually every average driver could consistently (and often would) accelerate faster than any New Look experience. The major local daily newspaper reported more people being injured, with the newer buses. Passengers could be flung around without any difficulty.
Felt like night and day. The power to weight ratio improvement, could be felt. I recall seeing passengers young and old, literally running towards the back of the bus, as their bodies could not resist the force pushing them to the back. Some would lunge, for a handle to stop sooner.
I routinely took this steady grade on Carling Avenue to get to work. In a New Look, it was loud and slow. More drama, for sure. The Orion VI and the Invero handled it with aplomb. Though, the Orion was usually used on less busy routes.
Orion VI and the Invero made every driver seem fast. Which they were.
https://www.google.com/maps/@45.3938988,-75.7157654,3a,75y,35.63h,85.08t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1s8Hb7UnF5BBDZZ8ooVSLlng!2e0!5s20220701T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D8Hb7UnF5BBDZZ8ooVSLlng%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.share%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26yaw%3D35.633223721403326%26pitch%3D4.9206944866425175%26thumbfov%3D90!7i16384!8i8192?authuser=0&coh=205410&entry=ttu
I won’t keep bothering you! I know you have better things to do. But here’s a nice clip of an OC Transpo Orion VI, and a high floor Orion V, pulling off from a traffic light. Under regular acceleration. This is enough, to push standing passengers back.
Neither Orion, ever had any trouble keeping up with traffic, no drama. You can see the Orion VI, was a performer. I think you would have loved driving one of them. And they sounded great! The Orion VI, was a sweet bus. 🙂
I think the change in perceived acceleration had much more to do with the evolution in transmissions than anything else. I’m out of my depth in discussing transmission operation, but the newer Allison design that came out around the time the RTS appeared sent power to the wheels far more quickly than the much “slushier” old designs used on the vast majority of New Looks. Those older transmissions rewarded drivers who patiently stood on the accelerator and waited for things to happen. Feathering the accelerator just delayed movement even more. But the newer transmissions required feathering at take-off if you didn’t want standees to end up in a heap on the floor.
@ tdballo
Not ‘perceived’ greater acceleration. The Orion VI, was a unique bus in that it was noticeably quicker off the line, and up to highway speed. They could hustle, with any driver. It truly stood out among buses. It could easily fling unaware standing passengers around, which I saw. Yes, the transmission, and shifts, were smoother than older buses like the New Look.
I would generally agree, most modern transit buses have forgettable acceleration and handling. Though, they are all around smoother than the New Looks.
Thanks for great read Jim! I remember these hardy beasts being pressed back into service in Newark, NJ in the early 80’s during the Fixible debacle. I think they were making NY runs. Friends of the NJ Transportation Heritage Center are hosting a historic bus festival in Sept with at least one on display.
When I was a young child, my older sister often took me on outings. I vividly remember these busses. The Sceamin’ Jimmy was always in the background and the lurch when the transmission shifted will always be ingrained in my mind. I recall seeing them well into the 1980s, when New Flyer busses took over in most of Canada.
Thanks for this, Jim.
I was there, too, when the New Look was new. Fortunately, the old look busses were still in service to allow riders like me to see just how advanced the new bus was. Softer seats, brighter interiors (shooting stars!), and bigger windows. The best was the transmission. Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t it a lock-up torque converter that mimicked the sensation of a 2 speed automatic transmission? Anyway, the old look would wind up, then there would be a pregnant pause, then clunk!, then a shuddering forward. The newest old look busses would shorten the pause, but still were nothing like the forward surge of the New Look torque converter locking up. On the old look, the stop request cord activated a grouchy buzzer, but the New Look had a pleasant chime. All of these changes to the ridership experience might seem trivial, but collectively, these transit busses were a big step forward. Absolutely my favorite bus.
If you are looking for ponderous handing and slow acceleration, look no further than the GM RTS! Throw in a crumby turning radius too. They were unbelievably heavy without a soul on board, the result of their largely stainless steel and fiberglass composite construction. And I have driven them.
onwonesten, you are correct about the V-drive transmission in the early New Look. It takes off driving through a ‘loose’ torque converter, and the ‘clunk’ you feel is the converter locking up. Similar to an early Buick Dynaflow. Later New Looks, particularly Suburban models geared for highway service, used the ‘Super V’. The ‘Super V’ was much the same as the ‘V’ with the addition of a planetary gear set for overdrive.
I don’t have any first-hand experience with any of the Orion coaches. Not many made it to the West Coast. I was told they fell apart pretty fast. Orion’s corporate history was interesting, they eneded up being owned by Western Star truck, which in turn was purchased by DaimlerChrysler. Orion was folded into Daimer Bus, but closed sometime aroung 2012, then Orion’s history gets murky. Daimler got out of the U.S. bus business and I think MCI handled Orion parts and service for a while. After that I have no idea.
The high floor Orion V, dating from 1989 through the 2000s, was an excellent bus. They provided solid long term service for various transit companies. Including, Toronto, New York and Ottawa. Easily, the best bus Ontario Bus Industries made. Quick off the line, and robust, they represented some of the best high floor bus designs. Few rattles, and no outstanding flaws. They saw long service, in the harsh climate here in Ottawa. One of my all-time favourites.
Not flashy, but smooth, quick, and solid.
IIRC ;
The new look I rode in in Rochester, New York was the very first time I’d experienced AC in any bus .
I loved it as the Summers were always so humid as well as hot .
Riding in one of these is the sort of memory that makes old folks like me forget about how trying the 1960’s actually were .
-Nate
The GM/MCI Classic Transit was actually a heavily redesigned version of the GMC New Look “Fishbowl” Transit which in essence were based from that original New Look’s mechanical and underbody features. Shown on my photo to the left is a 1:87 scale model version of the MCI Classic Transit sporting a NYC MTA livery.
The Classic eventually replaced the original New Look “Fishbowl” design after 1986.
Thanks for the info Pedro – just FYI if you haven’t seen this one.
https://www.curbsideclassic.com/bus-stop-classic/bus-stop-classics-gm-new-look-classic-coach-tried-and-true/
Jim, You welcome. You actually wrote many articles on buses and were very interesting. I enjoyed reading them. I will read through the link that you have provided. Thanks.
Don’t have any experience with the GM “Fishbowls”. I did ride in an “Old Look” to Wahiawa Junior High in Hawaii when my dad was in the US Army in 1975. The Army had old ’60s/’70s GMCs for school bus duty to the two elementary schools on Scholfield Barracks, but not to the Junior High or High School in Wahiawa. The buses wore an old green and white two-tone with ‘Hawaiian Scenic Tours’ lettered on them.
That 1963 GMC add is cool. I’m surprised the busses in this advertisement featured busses without the factory bus air conditioning. No condenser pack on top. In Baltimore, New Looks started in 1963. Interesting how the NYC 1959 New Looks did not have A/C but, in my town, they had A/C. I was seven years of age and riding in a fishbowl NL was living the dream at least from the perspective of this then youngster. Anyone know the percentages of New Looks that came with A/C in their first couple years of service?
And what year was A/C offered on the old looks? I’m guessing Ralph Kramden old look busses with A/C were in the minority. Anyone recall riding an old look with A/C and how did the A/C work in them?