Last week, I discussed my very brief ownership of a 2021 Lexus GX 460. It was replaced by a 2021 Toyota Venza that had an even shorter tenure as my daily driver. But the car caught my eye for a reason.
A brief history of the Toyota Venza and Harrier, and Lexus RX
Lexus was very clever. Its origins came about largely because, during President Nixon’s term, the Japanese automakers entered into a Voluntary Export Restraint (VER) in 1981. In order not to have harsh tariffs imposed upon their extremely successful products here, they agreed to import no more than 1.6 million cars annually, between April 1 1981, and March 31, 1982. That limit would increase to 1.85 million cars in 1984 and 2.3 million in 1985. What it really did was hike up the prices of those cars, which were no less in demand, as well as those of domestic cars.
What it also did was encourage the Japanese automakers to focus on increasing their profit margin. If they were to export fewer cars to the US, they reasoned, then some of those cars needed to transact at higher prices. And that line of thinking, along with some other factors, begat Acura (Honda), Infiniti (Nissan) and Lexus (Toyota). Toyota was particularly clever with Lexus. It engineered a no-expenses-spared flagship product, the original Lexus LS, and paired it with a spectacular dealership and ownership experience and clever marketing. That car came to define the brand and was as successful an example of a “halo” car as I can come up with. It’s rumored that Toyota was losing money on every single LS sold, at first. In order to make up for that, the Lexus stable would otherwise need to consist of much more profitable models that shared their makeup and bodies with premium Toyota products, some of which were mainly JDM models. Thus, the ES (Toyota Windom), SC (Toyota Soarer), GS (Toyota Aristo) and LX (Toyota Land Cruiser).
And the RX 300, which was the Toyota Harrier. As a Lexus, the RX was notably the first SUV-shaped anything to completely eschew pretenses of off-road capability in favor of luxury and reasonable on-road handling, coupled with comfort and space. The subsequent RX 330/400h made a huge paradigm shift into a styling language that remains to this day on the RX…but it, too, was a clone of the Toyota Harrier.
The Toyota Harrier is the one on the right. Who knows whether this crossover was designed primarily for Toyota or Lexus; at the time, the styling of the two brands wasn’t at all divorced, so it didn’t matter.
Again, we have both the Harrier and RX, with not a meaningful difference between them.
In 2005, Lexus was launched in Japan. That probably meant it was unwise to continue having all the Toyota models share their bodies with the Lexus ones, since Toyota was selling almost all those same models in Japan. Not to mention the fact that Lexus was beginning to receive flack for its overly conservative styling. So, that was when Lexus formally got its own design language, called L-Finesse. It was introduced in a series of concepts beginning in 2003, but ultimately first came to fruition with the 2006 GS and 2006 IS, followed by the 2007 ES, 2007 LS, 2010 HS, 2010 LFA, and 2011 CT. It also included the 2010 RX, which was the third generation of that model. Badged as RX 350 for gasoline models and RX 450h for hybrid ones, it was fully divorced in styling and hard points from the overseas Harrier. They weren’t even on the same platform. The RX remained on the Toyota K platform, with the midsize and full-size transverse vehicles like the Camry, Avalon, ES, Highlander, and RAV4. Meanwhile, the Harrier remained on the compact New MC platform, with the Corolla, CT, HS, RAV4, and eventual NX. The fourth-generation RX, introduced in 2016, was even larger—especially after it spawned an ill-conceived “L” variant with three rows—and was (as of 2022) the final K-platform product.
The third-generation Toyota Harrier.
The third-generation Lexus RX.
The first use of the Venza nameplate, meanwhile, was on a five-seat crossover introduced in 2009, and primarily for the North American market. While it was the same length as mid-sizers like the Ford Edge, Nissan Murano, and Hyundai Santa Fe, Toyota made it more of a cross between a car and an SUV. In other words, a raised wagon. In fact, the closest contemporary thing in size and concept would have been the Subaru Outback. Like the Outback, the Venza had a lower roofline and a more car-like seating position than competing crossovers. Nevertheless, it was on the K platform with the Camry, Highlander, RX, and various other products. That model lasted through 2015 and then was unceremoniously discontinued, leaving Toyota without a product in that lucrative segment.
The 2009-2015 Toyota Venza. Toyota marketed this product to people who weren’t ready to step up to a proper SUV or crossover.
Around that same time, Toyota began simplifying its global product development by deploying the Toyota New Global Architecture (TNGA) program. TNGA comprises a set of several disparate platforms that nevertheless utilize similar engineering and construction philosophies. Of those, TNGA-K is the core platform, a transverse-FWD-based structure that underpins all of Toyota’s midsize and large cars, like the latest Camry (2018-), RAV4 (2019-), Avalon (2019-2022), Highlander (2020-), Sienna (2021-), ES (2019-), NX (2022-) and RX (2023-). If you’re surprised that I’ve called the RAV4 midsize, well…that’s because it is. It still competes in a compact-segment cohort of vehicles, but all those cars have gotten so large that they are technically midsize. In fact, the current RAV4 occupies the same basic footprint as the original 2001 Highlander. For that reason, Toyota has had to introduce a smaller crossover, the new Corolla Cross, to imitate the size of the earlier RAV4s.
I was surprised when Toyota announced that it would bring the Venza nameplate back from the dead. Only this time, it would be an entirely different kind of car. It would be a proper crossover, with a tall roof and a higher seating position, and it wouldn’t look like the other US-market Toyotas. While Toyota’s had great success with its new styling, I find myself a bit alienated by what seems like a haphazard, deliberately offensive strategy of creases and curves and faux grilles. I kind of like and could drive some of the new US-market Toyotas, but I wouldn’t call them beautiful. However, the 2021 Venza—as details came out—would look much more toned-down…because it would share its body and interior with the latest Japanese-market Harrier. It would also be hybrid-only, equipped with a familiar 2.5-liter inline 4-cylinder engine, and e-AWD hybrid. And while Toyota markets it as midsize-class and therefore an alternative to the current Ford Edge, Nissan Murano, Volkswagen Atlas Cross Sport, and Hyundai Santa Fe…it is entirely a sleeker version of the compact-class RAV4 Hybrid. Really, I would say the Venza exists in a category of premium compact-class crossovers that also includes the Buick Envision and Mazda CX-50, though the Venza is the only one of the three that comes in a hybrid.
Reunited, and it feels so good!
So, to recap, the Harrier and RX started out as “midsize” twins. Then, as the RX got bigger and became more of a Lexus, the Harrier wound up sharing its body with the more-subdued Venza and its basic dimensions with the “compact” NX.
Back to Me
When I saw the new Venza, I was smitten. I found its excellent proportions, elegant details, and son-of-Lexus shape to be preferable to both the blocky, crude RAV4 Hybrid and to the ill-designed first-gen NX 300h. The NX 300h, by the way, was still on the old New MC platform and had an earlier, much worse-performing hybrid system (the Gen. 2 NX had not yet debuted). The Venza both looked and performed better. It almost looked like a prettier Jaguar E-Pace, if you squinted.
What proved to be harder than necessary was finding a Venza equipped the way I wanted it. Toyota doesn’t do factory orders. Dealerships can request to receive a specific specification of a car, but they are mostly at the whim of whatever Toyota (or its distributors, in states where those are still applicable) wants to send, or dealer-trading. And in July 2021, when I was looking for one, the shortage was in full swing. No one was trading anything, and many dealers were selling out of stock before it even hit the lot or attaching ludicrous markups to their wares and getting them. Toyota hybrids were especially hot-ticket items.
A conversation I had with one out-of-state salesperson. I’m sure someone came along and paid their asking price.
Meanwhile, the other car on my list was the latest Subaru Outback. The Outback was much more practical, had a superior AWD system, and—in top Touring XT spec—was much more potent. On top of that, Subaru Corporate had somehow managed to put the kibosh on the markups at its dealerships, so its dealers were selling for MSRP, and maybe a nominal doc fee. On a good day, you weren’t getting much off of a Subaru anyway (they were never the purveyors of heavy discounts), so a customer buying a Subaru during the pandemic really wasn’t in a bad spot versus before. WASPy Ex immediately expressed his fervent preference for the Outback. And, since it was my money being spent and not his, that made me want the Venza even more. Besides, it was prettier. So, a Venza it was. I felt a bit like the drag queens in To Wong Foo: “Style or substance?”
I wanted a Venza Limited, because I wanted the nicer JBL audio system, the 12.3-inch infotainment system (optional on XLE, standard on Limited), and the Star Gaze Panoramic Roof. The Star Gaze was the only option for any sort of sunroof on the Venza, and consisted of a non-moving, full-length piece of glass that—rather than having a sunshade—could simply turn opaque at the press of a button. Mercedes and Maybach had debuted this technology years prior, but it was interesting to see it on a Toyota. I wanted one of the lighter colors. And, most crucially, I wanted the light gray interior, and not the brown-black combo or the black one.
I was able to test-drive a base-model Venza LE, just to see how the thing drove and felt, and that was the only one in the state. And it sold soon after, at which point Oklahoma dealers wouldn’t have any for several months. Meanwhile, there were many dealerships in nearby Dallas that had cars that were not quite right. They were the wrong exterior color or the wrong interior color or were missing the sunroof. I ended up spending half a weekend trying to find a candidate. For whatever reason, cars that are pre-sold often still show up on a dealer’s site and on the aggregators (Cars.com, CarGurus, AutoTrader, etc.). Further out than that, some dealers wouldn’t deal with an out-of-state buyer, while others had mandatory $1,000 doc fees and other prep packages that tacked thousands onto the MSRP. I finally found a dealership in the St. Louis area that was willing to play ball at MSRP with no doc fee, and they paired me up with a very nice salesperson. The car in question was a Limited trim, in a silver/gold color called “Titanium Glow”, and the inside was the light-grey “Boulder” hue. It also had the all-important sunroof. Deal.
I flew in on a Wednesday—by way of a ridiculous flight that took me from Oklahoma City to Pensacola, FL to Atlanta to St. Louis—and the process to buy the car was smooth. When I got to the finance office, the gentleman tried to offer me a lower rate if I’d take the Toyota extended service contract. After I informed him that conditional financing was illegal, he acquiesced and gave me the lower rate without the warranty. But other than that, it was no trouble at all. Within a couple of hours of arriving, I was on my way for the 5 hours back home to Oklahoma City.
As I drove on the interstate, I noticed just how much road noise there was. This, it turned out, was due to the Venza’s very loud low-rolling-resistance tires. I could change those, but then I wouldn’t get the 40 MPG that I was getting on my trip. I also noticed what loud, thrashy noises the powertrain made if you floored it. This sure wasn’t Austin’s 2016 RX 450h, which had a silky-smooth and potent V6-based hybrid system.
By the time I got home, I wondered if I’d made a mistake and bought the wrong car.
Two weeks later, I realized I had.
Keep in mind that, during this time, I still had the GX 460. The company that had agreed to buy it had paid my lender off, but hadn’t yet picked up the car. And here I was already contemplating selling it. I offered it to the same place that had bought the GX, and they came up with a reasonable offer that would have had me—including tax—breaking even. But I thought I could do better. And it turned out that a certain online retailer was overpaying for cars, and offered me an amount a whopping $5,000 more than I’d paid for the entire transaction, thanks to the scarcity of the car. So, I sold it to them and collected a check.
While I had the Venza, there were a few things (in addition to the unrefined hybrid system and road noise) that I thought were a bit asinine or otherwise undesirable. The first was that Toyota chose to mount the rear indicators in the bumper…meaning that the pretty, full-width red light bar in the upper section went uninterrupted, but at the expense of safety and common sense. The second was that the Venza didn’t have rain-sensing wipers. At least, mine didn’t. That was bundled with an options package on top of the Limited trim. I hadn’t realized it until after I’d bought the car, because I’d just assumed that it would be a standard feature in a $45,000 car. Alas. Third, my car had the Digital Rearview Mirror. It worked as either an ordinary mirror or—at the flick of the switch on the bottom—turned into an LCD screen that showed a camera-fed view of what’s behind you. It’s really only great for when you have the cargo area full of stuff or too-tall occupants in the rear seats. Otherwise, the fact that it doesn’t move with your head/eyes and the greenish tint at night takes some getting used to. What was useful, though, was that the LCD screen would pull up prompts when you programmed the garage door opener, letting you know what to do and what was happening… where most other cars have you relying on cryptic LED flashes.
Really, though, this was a lesson for me. I was so set on the car’s styling that I didn’t realize I didn’t actually like the way it drove and sounded. I also must admit that I fell prey to the trap of wanting something more because it’s scarce. I imagine if I had been able to pop down to the local dealer and buy exactly what I wanted, I’d have taken my time and made a different decision.
And while I was smitten with the Venza’s styling, I can’t imagine it makes sense for most people to spend $7,000 or more on it, versus a comparable RAV4 Hybrid, which is an objectively better car. The RAV4 Hybrid has more cargo room and gets better fuel economy. And the new NX 350h, in loaded spec, costs not much more than the Venza: just $54,000 and change, as of this writing.
Hmm. I’m certain you have Nixon confused with Reagan. I’ve been contemplating one of these thinking it might be a slightly budget Lexus as well as an opportunityto experience a Japanese made Japanese car. From your experience I’d say no. For this money I want a serene interior and something I’d be happy with for a decade or more.
Yes, it was Reagan.
Whoops; I definitely meant to type Reagan and not Nixon.
not dealing w markups and salesmen alone is enough for me to get tesla forever lol
I do think that the chickens will come home to roost on Toyota and Honda dealerships in the coming years. People will remember how poorly they were treated and how greedy they were over markups on desirable and production-constrained models. A lot of the other brands’ dealerships have really come off it, but not Honda and Toyota.
“It’s rumored that Toyota was losing money on every single LS sold, at first.”
That was a common rumor, but Toyota sold the Celsior in Japan for the equivalent price.
That they did. But the Celsior was the only vehicle that started out as a Lexus and then was “downbadged” to a Toyota for the JDM market. And they still probably lost money on it, as it was aggressively priced there, too.
The SC kind of was a Lexus at first, too. It was styled by Toyota’s Calty office in California specifically for Lexus…but it was absolutely also an evolution of the Toyota Soarer, and it was probably a foregone conclusion that it would share its body and styling with the Soarer.
I can understand one being dissatisfying to drive, but if one of those vehicles from the ones you went over has 200,000 relatively happy miles in its future, it’s that one.
Low rolling resistance tires suck. Give me grip over slight efficiency gains every time. All season Michelins give good service and stick like crazy compared to LRR tires. The Bolt has LRR Michelins that are greasy. I can’t wait to see how grippier tires wake that car up.
Realistically, I was never going to keep it that long.
Can someone explain why low rolling resistance tires are noisy? I would think that acoustic energy is sucking up power that could be moving the vehicle more easily. But my experience with several sets of Bridgestone Ecopia’s, on our Prius and surprisingly, the OEM tires on our Golf, was that they were horribly noisy. Ditto the OEM Goodyears on the Prius.
It’s all in the tread design. The science of tread design is quite complex, and some of the elements that contribute to quieter tires (block size, pitch, etc.) are not conducive to lower rolling resistance.
I get the sense that some newer LRR tires have managed to improve on the noise issue.
My previous Citroen C5 had eco Michelin tyres on it twice and were very quiet tyres, my current C5 has Pirellis on the drive/steer axle and Michelins on the back its still quiet even on our coarse chip highways on smooth surface roads there isnt any sound.
The LRR Michelins on the Bolt are even more slippery than the Hankooks Hyundai uses. I like Michelin tires for staying round wearing all the way to the nub. The Michelins on my Cadillac stuck like glue and were quiet so I’ll give them another try.
I’d long been hoping for a tall wagon with a low floor that was a better drive than the Rendezvous, but the first Venza didn’t impress or fit me at a car show. It didn’t feel much more spacious than a regular sedan, so what was the point? The ponderous Buick felt and drove like the minivan it was based on.
Doesn’t that bare glass overhead get hot in the sun?
Perhaps LRR tires compensate for the lower traction from harder rubber with a more aggressive tread pattern.
I did not keep the car long enough to find out, honestly. It didn’t seem like it got any hotter than anything else with a panoramic sunroof. Most cars with panoramic sunroofs, if they have any sort of cover at all, merely have a thin one that rolls up electronically on one side of the roof or the other, and those probably don’t do much for heat shielding.
I recall reviewing the same exact car here a couple of years ago and after reviewing that post again just now interestingly I didn’t find the Ecopia tires to be loud, my speeds ranged from around town to mountain road, some with snow and ice, as well as 75mpoh freeways that were traversed at perhaps slightly higher speeds than the limit. It’s entirely possible that road surface itself is playing a factor although other vehicles did strike me as having lots of road noise so it isn’t just that my local pavement is different overall, perhaps a long section of your drive’s pavement was?
I also mentioned that when floored there is more engine noise than perhaps preferred, then again at the price (mine with every option including destination was around $43k) difference between it and the Lexus RX450h that you mentioned that makes sense, there’s a big price difference there for the V6. The drivetrain otherwise was remarkably refined and transparent, especially for the 95% (or likely more) of the time that it isn’t under full throttle. 40mpg (or 37 as I observed over 400 or so varied miles) doesn’t come for free.
The transparent/opaque roof is this car’s party piece and a marvel of a device, it’s surprising that more cars don’t use this. The digital rear view mirror as an idea is a device that my eyes don’t play well with either, having sampled them in multiple vehicles now. Great concept, doesn’t work for me in reality.
I wonder if the dislike was more to do with the realization that for a $45k outlay you “merely” have a brand new Toyota sitting in the driveway and that much of the thrill was in fact the chase for the car. Your car history indicates a preference at least for a “badge” with lots of toys at a relatively low and sometimes surprisingly low price of entry, albeit though with compensatory mileage on the vehicle and usually resulting in much additional maintenance cost and aggravation, conversely the benefit of a new Toyota doesn’t always get realized until time goes on. As nice as the Venza is (and I said it could easily be marketed as a Lexus without any change but a badge swap and a $5k adjustment in price) it’s still a Toyota, which matters differently to different people. I’ve found myself in much the same situation, i.e. I’ve bought a lot of “nice” cars in my time, but nowadays generally just want something that works, is easily and cheaply fixable when it doesn’t, and does the job it was built to do with better places to stick my money.
I’d say $54,000 for the new NX is very much a lot more money than this Venza at around $9000 less. But yes, the RAV4 Hybrid makes all the sense in the world if it can be found, I note that at the beginning you mentioned it as being “crude” but at the end seem to find it a very good value. The one to get in the bunch, if it can be found, is actually the RAV4 PRIME, the plug in hybrid. Quite a bit more power, drive without really using fuel many days, and as nice a RAV4 as is possible to find, nothing crude about it.
Yeah, the RAV4 Prime is definitely a gem, but the waiting lists are years long. I imagine it’s the same for the related NX 450h+.
As for the RX hybrid, there, sadly, no longer *is* a 450h. There’s now either the RX 350h, with essentially the same 4-cylinder drivetrain as the Venza, RAV4 Hybrid and NX 350h…or the RX 500h, which uses the turbocharged Hybrid MAX powertrain and is very much priced in BMW/Mercedes-Benz/Audi territory.
But fuel economy for the RX 350h is now close to 40 MPG, vs close to 30 on the 450h. I imagine most people are happy with this decision.
As far as the badge, while I am predisposed to luxury cars, I honestly did like the Venza as a Toyota. It felt like all the best parts of Lexus design, without Lexus’ often over-styled details. I really would have kept it if it hadn’t been so unrefined and lacking power. It was much the same issue I had with the Tiguan. Lovely design, underwhelming powertrain. Plus, I was happy to get substantially more for it than I paid.
What you need is a palate-cleanser car 🙂 When I was reviewing cars I also had a normal but new mid-size sedan in the driveway. It was useful to drive it for a day between cars, especially vastly different ones. It was a fine modern car but nothing particularly special, a vanilla wafer if you will.
There’s no way to go from driving a V8 Lexus directly into a 4cylinder hybrid and be happy with the experience, especially if you can go back and forth between them. Give yourself a week in an Outback or an Altima, especially an older one, not something new, between vehicles and you’ll like whatever it is much better. That’s likely the reason the average person that goes car shopping every 8 or so years seems so happy with their purchase, it can be an objectively bad vehicle compared to what else is available currently, yet will likely still be FAR more advanced than whatever it is directly replacing and thus seems great to them.
The Highlander hybrid has I think the same 4cyl hybrid powertrain too as well as the Sienna. You won’t like it methinks but yes for the average person looking and shopping for a “nice car” it’s perfectly good.
Yeah, I didn’t even try the Highlander Hybrid, once I realized I didn’t even like the Venza. The Highlander Hybrid is even heavier and larger, and has none of the design swagger.
Funnily enough, I have a ten-year-old German flagship sedan (GFS) in my current fleet (I’ll let you guess which one), and while it has four-corner air suspension, it also has 130K miles and needs new control arms…which I’ll get to once the weather cools down.
Last week, I had a family friend fly in and stay with me last week, and since she didn’t have a rental, I let her borrow the GFS. I was worried she’d notice how choppy and musical the suspension was, but when she gave me back the keys, she was like “Oh, it’s so smooth and so fancy. Not a single bump…” She herself had a 2006 Saturn ION sedan for ten years, and then when that died, was upgraded to a 2012 MAZDA3 6MT that she won in a divorce from her ex-husband. So, to her, it probably *was* a very smooth car.
For me, I think you absolutely have identified the issue I’ve faced. My taste and expectations have really gotten absolutely ridiculous, as you’ll see in future COALs, and what I’m really considering is a reset in a daily driver, myself. I’m considering a new or L/Certified current-model Lexus ES 350, because that engine is extremely refined, it gets good enough fuel economy, it’s powerful enough, it’s VERY quiet inside, and it’s the sort of thing you’d be able to keep forever. Which, at some point, I need to do.
As for the Outback, well…keep reading…
You won’t be happy with an Outback. The engine is far too unrefined and the seat heater button is for some reason buried in a screen submenu although otherwise it’s an objectively good car. That’s my prediction 🙂
Yes, ES350 is excellent, or at least that engine is, also of course found in many other Toyota/Lexus products.
The way to go about it is get an older one first, not the forever one. Force yourself to drive it for a year or two. Then UPgrade to the newer L-Certified one, it’ll feel even better and you’ll already be in the longer-term zone mentally. But some people (like me and you I think) are just predisposed to “need” to have more than one car in the driveway and be able to switch between them, even if for only a short duration.
Of course I say all this while currently being about 8-10 vehicles behind in my own COAL series and trying to hold on to a long term car for, well, the long term….The new car reviews were great for me though, something new every week and I eventually cycled through almost everything that interested me on various levels.
I know all of that about the Outback intimately.
Sadly, I am also still 8 or 10 vehicles behind.
This is something like a bigger Prius, and if you don’t like its hybrid system, then it shouldn’t be surprising that you won’t like it in other Toyotas. There’s a price to be paid for that 40 mpgs.
The V6 hybrid system is smoother, but can’t match the four for ultimate efficiency.
The original Venza was a rare fail for Toyota. It also suffered from a cheap interior, one of the last Toyotas from that era.
Having driven the 4-cylinder hybrids from Toyota in the Sienna, Camry, Avalon, Venza, Prius, and a couple more that escape me they all suffer from a little too much noise and bit of unpleasantness at full throttle, however when taking into account the minimal percentage of time overall spent at WOT they deliver in fuel efficiency as a (to me) well worthwhile reward. Some well-placed DynaMat, although adding weight, would probably work wonders to some extent if it’s really bothersome, although if WOT is a large percentage of one’s usetime, a hybrid perhaps isn’t the best option. Maybe 1% of one’s overall mileage is at WOT, in normal use going with traffic flow (as most people do) it’s perfectly fine, and in fact smoother than anything else as often that will be without the engine even running..
I probably would have done the DynaMat thing, along with replacing the LRR tires, if I hadn’t been able to just sell it for more than I paid.
Yes, the first-gen Venza was definitely a flop. It wasn’t especially well-priced, versus the contemporary Highlander.
Another interesting flop from that era was the HS 250h, essentially a Toyota Avensis sedan with an altered greenhouse and a Lexus interior. Despite being on the compact New MC platform with the Corolla, Prius and CT, it got the larger 2.5-liter hybrid system out of the Camry Hybrid. But it didn’t get especially good fuel economy, and the design was kind of unsightly.
Thankfully, Lexus replaced the HS 250h with the newly redesigned ES, now sporting an ES 300h hybrid variant. That car had also recently moved from the Camry’s midsize wheelbase to the Avalon’s full-size one, so it was much larger and better-styled than the HS 250h. And it got substantially better fuel economy.
A few notes … a friend who grew up in a Detroit auto industry family and worked at Chrysler briefly in the ‘90’s has only owned one non-American car, a first-gen Venza. He didn’t keep it long and replaced it with a hybrid Fusion. Also, my sister had a V6 hybrid Highlander for quite a while and never clicked with it. It replace an Element which she loved. She recently traded the Highlander for a Subaru Ascent with 4 cylinder turbo (non-hybrid) and she loves it. She does quite a bit of highway driving and she says the Subaru mpg isn’t much worse than the Toyota. I suspect the V6 Hybrid is not really a sweet spot except for the balance of total power/torque and urban stop/go mpg. It’s probably the powertrain that should have been offered in the 3rd gen Tacoma like I own. Of course, for 2024 the Tacoma will get all 4 cylinder powertrains, turbo hybrid or non-hybrid.
I agree that having a series of late model, or new cars in rapid succession, could lead to a sense of dissatisfaction. I haven’t bought a brand new car since 2007, (they’re still around!) though I did get a four year old, 2017 model back in 2020. Almost all cars have improved dramatically over the years. I’ve picked up a couple of early Aughts hobby cars that are in good shape and I can appreciate how they were improved over earlier models. heck, I’m even impressed by my 27 year old Buick!
I would have a real hard time buying another new car. First, I don’t want to spend THAT kind of money, and Second, I’m just not that excited by current cars. I can find a lot of five to ten year old cars that are appealing to me, modern enough, and affordable. I guess that I’m now just a crabby old man that doesn’t get excited about cars like when I was younger.
Thanks for a great write up! Really appreciate the history lesson as well with Toyota’s platforms. I can certainly understand buying ‘the wrong car’. As I’m currently going through that I was sure interested in your write up of the GX, the 24 is on my short list.
Anything Toyota, I will pass. I don’t care what the press says, they are no better than average at best. It shocks me when I have to Uber back to work (often with my job) and so often I end up in a Toyota or Honda. It’s amazing how noisy they are and the hard plastics in many touch areas feels cheap.
Mazda does a much better job in those areas if you must have a Japanese brand, but I’ll stick with my much more quiet and very reliable GM products.
“very reliable GM products”…. Ohhhkaaaay.
Notice the “my.” YMMV
Yup, that’s what I said. More reliable than most and better than many.
In this case, clearly most people’s M will V. There’s always bound to be a few rare outliers.
My wife and I own both a 22 Camry XSE hybrid and a 23 Prius XLE. The Camry’s drivetrain is so smooth and quiet that you can’t tell if the engine is running many times unless you check for the EV light on the instrument cluster. The Prius, even being a newer generation, has a noisier and less smooth engine. It’s not offensive by any means, just surprising.
Both are wonderful cars. Their hybrid systems are way more advanced than the one in our previous 2012 Prius.
The Venza and RAV4 hybrids were cars I considered. There were no Venzas to even sit in and only a two year old RAV4 to test drive. Seat in the RAV had such a short bottom cushion, I knew there was no way I could live with that, so we bought the Camry and then the Prius a year later for my wife.
Most Lexus are rebadges of other Toyotas some are truly surprising given the Lexus luxury slot in the Toyota hierachy, the Altezza sells as a small Lexus and Ive not to ridden in something with less comfort, recently, The wide body Camry of 90/91 was designed to be a Lexus from the start Toyota went to great lengths to get noise levels down and comfort levels up, then redesigned most of the car for world consumption including another engine after the beta test results were analyzed, that tok 12 months and you got it in 92/3 and they sold millions of them, Ive seen how the RAV evolved into whats a very popular mid size vehicle with hybrid option like everything else they make, that system works well and a Lexus hybrid is an interesting bit of gear a mates son has one it refuses to burn much gas no matter how hard its driven.
Would like to receive further info and comments.
Being on our second Toyota Hybrid and having several others in the family, I strongly concur with the noise and unpleasantness of the powertrain under heavy throttle. Our 3rd gen Prius was particularly noisy and unrefined while also lacking power. It was primarily my wife’s car, and it didn’t seem to bother her, but whenever I drove it on long trips, I didn’t enjoy the experience. Our part of the province has good sized hills on the highway and that car would always labour and drone on each hill. While it was a great car, being reliable, roomy (for its size) and had very low operating costs, I was not sad to see it go.
Our Gen 5 Rav4 Hybrid is significantly improved compared to the Prius. While it still is noisy and unrefined under heavy throttle, it is considerably quieter than our Prius. It also has much better performance and in fact will out perform a regular ICE Rav4. I briefly crossed shopped the Venza, but I just didn’t see any real benefits from the higher MSRP. The smaller cargo space was a big minus in my book. Overall we are satisfied with our Rav4, but it’s not overly refined or something I will ever be passionate about. So I can see why someone accustomed to modern luxury wouldn’t be overly impressed with the Venza. I think of our Rav4 as a Maytag appliance, it does the job well and without issue. Quite frankly at this stage of my life, that is all I want out of a daily driver as my passion for automobiles is really only in old iron.
The Rav4 Prime wait times are ridiculous. My brother has been on waiting list for over 3 years, but he is about ready to give up and switch brands. In comparison, we ordered our Rav4 Hybrid in 2022, and lucked out only waiting 5 months. We got it at MSRP with no extra add-ons along with top dollar for our trade-in. Considering the market at the time, I thought it was a good deal. Most dealers in Ontario had mark-ups or required options along with lower trade-in values.
My local Toyota dealer hasn’t had a Venza in the longest time. I don’t think they are popular around home here in North Carolina. My current Toyota is a 2022 Avalon Limited. I almost gave up waiting for the Avalon to go with a Venza back in late 2021 when a couple of those were available. I read back then that they were somewhat noisy and unrefined inside. I am glad that I chose the Avalon.
The Volvo was style over substance. The Venza merely gives up some cargo capacity.
One advantage to keeping a vehicle for a long time and being hopelessly behind the times is remaining blissfully untroubled by miscellanea like rain sensing wipers, auto start/stop, lanewatch, etc. I raised my eyebrows when I saw that a Venza was your next choice, I didn’t think anyone with your ownership history would be satisfied by a crossover with a 4 cylinder hybrid powertrain and I would have thought it would be apparent on the first test drive.
Those who buy the Rav4 hybrid realize an even noisier vehicle. I would still choose the Venza because I hate to death all those Toyota fronts-end that look like Tacoma truck from the Corolla Cross to the Higlander : it’s just ugly. I like the smooth front of my ’13-’18 Rav and the new Venza is closer to that . On the other hand, I will keep my old Rav because the non-intuitive hvac control of the new Venza one exasperates me and the console protudes too much on my right knee . Nothing and forever will be more intuitive than the 3 round buttons that Toyota has used for almost 2 decades. To equalize the cargo volume of the Rav I will delete enterely the rear seat anyway …just wonder where the battery packs are cause I want to get a homebrew low flat floor .
I too wanted the new Venza hybrid.. As they were hard to find I haven’t pushed it. I have the 2015 Venza and I love that car. Mine has low miles so I’ll just hold it for now. It does not have the most luxurious interior but is a roomy car and drives great. Thanks for your review..
The home boss bought a loaded 2021 Venza for 40K. Only misses are lack of physical buttons for just about everything and blank spaces for fog lights. I bought a loaded RAV4 Prime for the $500 more price and it’s the first car I ever loved. I definitely won this showdown.