(first posted 11/23/2011; revised 9/1/2016) Get out the Kleenex, because the Leyland P76 is a woeful tale. Like any turkey (defined as a car that failed in the marketplace), its easy to dismiss it wholesale, and it certainly had its shortcomings. But every car has its story, and the P76’s is a lot more complex and compelling than I might have given it credit for. The whole idea of Leyland designing a large car on an American scale, specifically for Australia, gives one a bit of a woozy feeling from the get-go. So maybe better get some Dramamine along with the Kleenex.
The world of BL is almost a parallel universe, and one a bit challenging to keep track of, especially when it gets to its Austalian and New Zealand operations. Anyway, the P76’s predecessor was the Austin Kimberly/Tasman, a somewhat well disguised BMC 1800 (ADO 17), with a fwd transverse 2.2 L six-cylinder version of the “beloved” E-Series that also powered the Maxi and Allegro back in the UK.
The ADO was a remarkably roomy car, and the Australian version even came with bench seats, to make a six-seater. But the frailties of the E-Series and fwd didn’t really work for the Aussies, who preferred the rugged and simple Big Three’s iron, suitably localized.
So the ambitious program to create a true competitor for the Holdens, Fords and Chryslers was launched in 1970, codenamed P76. I always wondered how Leyland could afford to create a unique platform, and the answer is they couldn’t , and didn’t. We’ll get to the couldn’t afford at the end, but the didn’t part has to do with the fact that the P76 shared certain engineering features with with Rover’s SD1 (Rover 3500 in US). You remember that fiasco, right?
Michelotti, the somewhat uneven Italian designer that Leyland had used for a number of its cars, was commissioned to help design the P76. The result is…well, what do you expect from an Italian trying to design an Australian take on an “American” car? So what does it most remind you of? 1969 Torino? 1971 Satellite? Or?
I find myself literally getting sucked into that grille. Wow; Michelotti meets a Plymouth Sebring.
One of the design objectives was a true American-style trunk. The P76’s ability to swallow a 55 gallon (44 Imp. gals) drum became one of the more enduring parts of its legacy.
On paper , the P76 really was more advanced than the competition in numerous ways. It had a strut front suspension, rack and pinion steering, disc brakes, and most significantly, it had an aluminum V8. Take that! As a result, the P76 weighed some 500 lbs less than the competition. Nothing to sneeze at.
and what looks like the typical Detroit V8 iron is actually a unique 4.4 liter version of Rover’s (ex-Buick) 3.5 liter V8 (also shared with the Leyland Terrier truck). With a taller deck, it swung a longer stroke, and was rated at 200 easy horses. The six cylinder was an enlarged version of the Kimberly’s six, with 2.6 liters. Let’s skip that.
Touted as “Anything but Average”, the P76 won Australia’s Car of the Year in 1973. Expectations, and initial demand was high. You know where this is going. A combination of supplier problems, assembly quality control issues, the first energy crisis, and failure to live up to high expectations all conspired in the P76’s rapid implosion. Within some two years and 18k cars, the lines were shut, and Leyland Australia was mostly bust, except for some local production of the Mini and Mini Moke.
In addition to the sedan, a coupe, the Force 7, was also developed, featuring a genuine hatchback, no less. Rather oddly proportioned for its size and intended mission, the Force 7 was aborted after some sixty or so were built.
Of those all but eight or nine were sent straight to the crusher. The remaining eight were auctioned off, and spend their happy and pampered lives appearing at car shows. Must keep the memory alive! And as the comments below attest, the P76 owners are a very proud and defensive bunch. Why not? They’re keeping the legacy alive; may the Force be with them.
From the A-pillars back it’s a shrunken LTD/Galaxy, but the nose is Maserati-like. Very weird.
It could really use some hidden headlights to clinch the front end treatment, imagine if it was just a solid “grille wall” between the turn signals, the Force 7 coupe looks like a huge Mustang II from the side, I love 70’s Aussie cars, they have this “haven’t we met somehwere before” deja vu about them.
THANK YOU! I think that might be what I’m subconsciously picturing, which would go some way to explaining why I kinda want one.
*hasty photoshoppery*
Looks good! No?
NO
It looks even more like a Torino with the hidden lights, especially the ’70.
Better than the original.
+1 but it’s faint praise. Like being the tallest dwarf.
It would have been better still if the front and rear had had some taper in plan view, instead of being as wide as the middle of the car. David Bentley, an Aussie designer, pointed this out at the time. Wheels had him critique the design of a range of popular cars, not just the P76.
David Bentley, a noted designer at the time, worked occasionally for Leyland, but not on the P76, and later, taught automotive design and styling in Melbourne. He saw the P76 as a ‘nearly car’ . With just a few improvements to the styling, he could see the car as a worldbeater. He backed up his comments with actual sketches, which appeared in the February 1975 issue of ‘Wheels’ magazine. A full rundown of the P76 saga, including those drawings can be found here… https://www.shannons.com.au/club/news/classic-garage/1973-74-leyland-p76-the-scapegoat-for-a-rudderless-nation/
There were still a few around when I lived in Australia in 87-88. I guess they were the base models because they looked unfinished like a 1960s Vauxhall Victor. And those naff oversized wheel arches! My 1970 Kingswood looked super classy in comparison – even with the bit of mouldy carpet a previous owner had glued over the top of the sun-cracked dashboard!
That’s a good article and the moderate restyling exercise is a big improvement. Putting the right sized wheeks for the arches (or making the right-sized arches for the wheels) fixes the biggest issue for me. It isn’t often that undersized wheels look good – and almost always that’s on a skillfully customized car rather than a production car.
Just like a lot of 70s and 80s British kit cars it strikes me that the production costs of a well-drawn design are rarely higher than an amateurish botch but the impact on sales is immense.
Looks like Michelotti’s reinterpretation of a Ford Torino. (And why would you ever want to reinterpret a Ford Torino?)
What, no ‘ute’ version?
BTW, I remember having seen exactly one Rover 3500 in the US. When I used to play youth soccer, way back when, one of the other kids used to arrive in a Rover 3500. It was easily the oddest car in the parking lot. (I think they were British, or maybe just Anglophiles.)
Hmmmmmmmmmmm 55 gallon drum huh? Too bad there weren’t moonshine runners in Austrailia in those days, sounds like the perfect car for them.
I think he meant 44 Gallon drum but hey why worry about facts
55 US gallons = 44 Imperial gallons. Got it?
So, roughly 1/3 hogshead, right?
Total subject change, but Jeff Sun’s post of yesterday comes up error code 404, and I was really into reading it. Are you going to resubmit?
Rover SD1 launched July 1976 according to Wikipedia. Even taking industry lead times into account it is hard to accept the SD1 had much impact on a car sold 3 years before. If there is a connection it is the SD1 which owes a debt. Ron, where are you?
Look here:http://www.shannons.com.au/pages/auctions/lot.jsp?id=EF5D348ZE819IPF9
Yes, it’s probably not representative but still interesting.
BL had some absurdly slow and convoluted product development. The SD1 launched in 1976, but the development of the SD1 began in March 1969.
http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/2011/09/25/the-cars-rover-sd1-development-history/
It seems likely there would have been a kind of cross pollination between the projects… but as with most things BL it’s never simple – the whole convoluted thing is examined in detail here:
http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/2011/06/24/p76-vs-p8-vs-sd1/
There was to my knowledge no relationship between the SD1 and P76
You mean other than using the same powertrain and being built by the same company.
British Leyland denied any relationship with the design if the SD1 and the P76 Force 7
Steve just so you know one of the coupes became Lord Stokes personal car it went to the UK during the development of the SD1 as a design study then into the CEOs use, that car is now in New Zealand and turns up at shows regularly, I dont like P76s and have some experience of them but it seems a lot of people do like the ,,,,Now.
a lot of people do like the ,,,,Now.
Don’t use your entire punctuation allotment in one go!
OMG you did it the P76 one of the worst cars ever created we had a 6 cylinder one for a paddock car a fairly gutless thing all the suspension and wheels were identical to XW Falcon same supplier I guess amazinly I saw a Targa Florio V8 one the other day no camera handy thinking thatl fool em at the curb but no. The Kimberly tasman twins are very rare not the most durable cars but one is for sale on yrade me along with a Marina 262 which is the Morris Marina with a Leyland P76 engine a spectacular failure designed to compete with the Holden Torana.It certainly wasnt average it was nowhere near that good
Bryce the XW had wishbone suspension where as the P76 had macpherson strut. Is the rest of your contribution as accurate.
The tie rod ends are identical wheels brake parts there seemed to be a lot of Borg-Warner in that p76 all I know is what we used for parts to keep one mobile it was an unregistered bush car 11 years old and beyond getting roadworthy even in Narrabri, I drove a Tasman several times not a great experience like an 1800 with more power but hardly a great car, look how many are left they simply disappeared. Are you telling me the Marina with a 6 was a good car?Rose tinted glasses are fine but the reality of Leyland is they failed to sell cars and went bust.
Tie rod ends are the same as Holden HQ. Ford, Chrysler, Holden and Leyland all bought brake parts from PBR. Ford Chrysler, Leyland and later Holden all bought driveline components from Borg Warner. The Marina 6 was good enough to start and finish Bathurst in 1974. Leyland Australia never went bust. The parent company, British Leyland, closed the factory and sold everything to try and bail themselves out of the shit. Didn’t work as by 1978 British Leyland was bailed out by the British Government and eventually broken up and sold off. Get your facts right Bryce.
Same difference they folded their tent and left,lots of cars start and finish Bathurst its not that far The Marina is and was a shitbox a bigger heavier engine wont help
ooooohhhhhhh we starting on the Marina’s’s now are we???
that could open another can of worms!!!
Marinas were absolute crap , thats praise not derision
And the falcon had cart (leaf) springs at the rear. Would do for years too come.
P 76 had a 4 link & coil, as in the HQ Holden and the 64-72 GM A bodies.
Bryce is correct on one thing, the was a hell of a lot of Bog Whiner in the P 76.
It does look a lot like a Torino, but I think it looks more like a 1974-78 Matador sedan, especially in the exaggerated Coke bottle fenders. From the front it looks like a Triumph Stag.
I don’t know what it is about these, but I’ve always kinda liked the P76 since first reading about it (It was never sold in the UK and I didn’t encounter any while I lived down under).
Can’t explain it, by all reasonable measures it’s clearly a rushed, flawed design that would have been appallingly manufactured… but something about them still appeals.
Likewise the SD1 although at least that’s more conventionally a looker, and *some* good apples must have snuck through the picket lines at Longbridge so it’s conceivable you could find one that won’t completely fall apart…
BMC then Leyland had several tries at making an Australian car that the masses would buy the closest they got was the
Morris Major it was slightly awkward looking but a good car it used the Wolseley 1500 Powertrain the Freeway was also quite good once the oil leaks were sorted out but the front wheel drive cars were crap the Kimberly/Tasman twins were unreliable in the extreme though nice riding and OK to drive
Hence the idea to build what people wanted the P76.
The Aussie big 3 started a hate campaign long before any cars appeared unfortunately for Leyland the resulting car wasnt well made and warranty issues didnt help their cause. In the end they folded their tent and left the remaining cars are loved by their owners and club members but are a rare sight on the roads even 20 years ago it was unusual to see an Aussie Leyland though a former junkyard between Belingen and Dorrigo houses at least 30 examples.
Lots of people in Australia at the time were still Anglophiles and were willing to give the P76 a go. But the quality was, in true British-car style, awful and killed it off. A famous sports journalist here – Daryl Eastlake – truer to race one. He called it the P38 “because it was half the car it could have been”.
I knew the P38 as a folding can opener prized by soldiers for the light metal cutting sometimes necessary when trying to create field expedient work-arounds for all manner of equipment repairs.
Wonder if a P38 could open up a P76.
When I saw the first pix of the P76 my mind immediately flashed back to a number of old Mercurys I grew up in. Here’s one:
It’s almost like an alternate reality. I’ve really been watching way too many of the old Twilight Zones…
Hey Paul, i’d like to write some articles myself for the site. How possible would that be?
Very possible. I just sent you an e-mail.
i never received it. just to double check. kziegler74@yahoo.com
Check your Junk/Spam folder. I sent it to that address. You can also write me at curbsideclassic (at) gmail.com
just sent a story idea to you.
Paul did you do any research for this story and or seek permission to use the images. My view of your article, in the absence of any quoted sources or other substantiating refference point is that it is ill informed, derogatry and an unproffessional attempt an journalisim. If however you would like me to revise my opinion of your work please feel free to post the sources of your article that you relied upon to establish you views as expressed in the article.
For your information I have been a long term owner and member of the P76 Owners Club.
Mark Ellery
Mark, I would not like you to revise your opinion of my work. If you would like to submit an article about the P76, I always welcome submissions. Enjoy your P76!
(Also, see my comment to Carle below)
The Force 7 looks like someone’s attempt to update an AMC Marlin for the mid 70’s.
I well remember the hyps surrounding the force7 then suddenly it was not to be as Leyland folded their tent and left oddly the proportions seemed good back in the day.
Awesome to see a familiar car on Curbside! With my Dad being an Austin-Rover (aka Leyland) mechanic in the 1970s, when I was born, I was aware of the P76’s existence from an early age – his tales of its enormous boot were legendary. I still have an original parts catalogues Dad gave me. My brother-in-law had a V8 P76 in the 80s, it was quite solid apparently. Moving forward to 2011, there’s a gorgeous V8 one up the road from me here – it’s had the same owner for the last 15 or so years. It’s in mint condition, metallic blue paint, white vinyl interior, period chrome wheels. Looks and sounds great! There’s at least one Force 7 here in NZ too, a beautiful blue one. Leyland also built 3 prototype station wagons, of which one still exists:
I think if they were of better quality, they may have done OK. After all, people were excited about the P76. There were generations of people that had owned English cars so people were willing to give it a go. It looked better that the Falcon, in my opinion. But the reliability and build problems really did them in. Sadly, after the P76 fiasco, many people swore off every buying another English car due to the P76s lousy reputation. It literally became a joke. Anything that was no good would be called the P76. We had an old TV that worked sometimes and it became known in our house as “the P76.” Plus at that time, Holden was at the top of its game producing the most popular model it ever built – the HQ – available in so many configurations and equipment levels. Holdens and Fords were reliable, sadly, P76s weren’t.
I remember on Aussie TV in the early 80s whenever they needed a “car that breaks down” for a TV ad storyline, it was always the P76. In one ad all four wheels broke off and rolled away while the P76 chassis crumpled into the dirt.
The front of that hatchback at the show looks like a widened Mazda RX-3
In Tony Davis’ excellent book “Lemon-Sixty heroic automotive failures” there’s a write-up on this turkey. It won Australia’s “Wheels” magazine’s “Car of the year-1973” award,embarrassing the magazine ever since.
Led them to make the rule no awards to a specific variant of a model, as the COTY award was for the V8 version only.
And in all fairness it was a great concept. Modern suspension and steering design, V8 the same weight as the six, etc.
An article absolutely full of inaccuracies with scant evidence of truth in the whole article and shows no research at all into the subject.
Aussies had a good use for this type of garbage many years ago, hanging up on the dunny (toilet) wall as toilet paper!!
Oh here is a hint go and drive one!!!!!!!!!
Here’s what I find ironic: it’s very common to find articles trashing the P76. I set out to counterbalance that, to the extent possible, I specifically pointed out a number of the interesting and unique qualities of the P76 (rack and pinon steering, disc brakes, alloy V8, etc.) I have no reason to disparage this car. I find it an interesting effort, and a noteworthy one.
Yet the market has spoken, right? It failed, spectacularly, right? Did I actually call it a bad car anywhere? No. So why are you and Mark so hyper-defensive? Would you be happier if I lied and said the P76 was a great success?
I’d love to drive one; is this an invitation?
Wheels magazine wrote articles praising the P76 when it was new Ive never read anything praising it since
It’s a P 76 owner thing. Like Land Rover owners, they are often very, very defensive about their cars.
@Carle Gregory- If you don’t like it, start your own blog or go write for another one. I don’t see much wrong with this article. I am an American reader and I’m not familiar with BL so I appreciate articles like this. I love to read about vehicles sold in Europe and Australia.
This is the amazing thing about the P76: that a car that could be such a spectacular commercial failure, can to this day have such rabid fans!
P76s are consistently well represented at the car shows around Melbourne, and… ahem… I’ve noticed that more than a few owners put up displays about how great the car is and how wrong you are for thinking otherwise. Others embrace the ‘turkey’ identity as a bit of good fun, much like the folks who bring their Marinas and Allegros.
The most memorable anecdote I can remember about the P76 is that Leyland salesmen were dismayed by the name, which–on the car’s badges–could be misread as ‘PIG’ from a distance, or so the story goes.
As an American who’s lived in Australia for a couple years now, I hope we’ll see a lot more features on Aussie iron. Similar cars built for similarly long, straight roads, and the ‘parallel universe’ quality of these cars is fascinating.
I got to talking to an instrument technician once when I was still working, and it turned out that he owned a Rover 3500 – the SD1 version – and liked it. So not many months afterward I saw a good-looking dark green one at the gas station, walked up and introduced myself to the lady, and indeed she was the wife of said technician. They had had the car for quite a few years at the time and both still were happy with it. I saw it around town a couple of times after that. The only reason I mention that here is that I don’t expect to be reading a CC article on that car anytime soon.
in answer to your reply
“did i actually call it a bad car anywhere”
not in those words but a quick look and you have labelled it a “turkey” not very complementary.
“it’s very common to find articles trashing the P76.”
In my opinion these articles are usually decades old newer articles concentrate on their historical values.
“So why are you and Mark so hyper-defensive?”
Ask an Edsel owners this question as well, because like them after decades of derogatory diatribe being made the joke wears very,very, VERY thin.
” You know where this is going. A combination of supplier problems, poor assembly quality, the first energy crisis, and failure to live up to high expectations all conspired in the P76′s rapid implosion. Within less than two years and 18k cars, the lines were shut, and Leyland Australia was bust.”
“Supplier problems”…… YES due to the big 3
“Poor assembly quality”………. NO.. poor quality control.., a dealer in northern New South Wales did a proper quality control on his cars before delivery and there was no problems with these cars.
“Energy crisis” ………YES
“Leyland Australia bust” …………NO the P76 was actually MAKING a profit (the Mini was actually losing $6 per car!!) and the factory was rapidly coming back into the black.
It was a Manger appointed by British Leyland to liquify the assets at the factory to prop up British Leyland that closed the factory
“Michelotti, the somewhat uneven Italian designer that Lyeland had used for a number of its cars, was commissioned to design the P76.”
Yes Michelotti put forward a design but it was NOT the design that became the car, it was a different package from within Leyland Australia.
By the way, my sources for opinions here are personal views of the time and more so from Employees hired by the factory at the time and well before.
One ex employee was a respected Motoring journalist called Evan Green who published a book (Bootfull of Right Arms) on the minimal preparation of a P76 to compete in the World Cup Rally, well worth a read.
On a Positive note
“unique 4.4 liter version of Rover’s (ex-Buick) 3.5 liter V8. With a taller deck, it swung a longer stroke, and was rated at 200 easy horses”
It was actually used in light trucks (Leyland Terrier)
Ironically i do NOT own a P76 i have driven quite a few and have come close to ownership so i cannot personally offer you a drive however if you approach a P76 car club you might be lucky to sample the car and some more recent information
I hope this clarifies things a little
Ah yes Evan Green respected? really, by who?
Remember the Tucker Torpedo??
basically same deal different company
Well, that doesn’t help your argument one bit. The Tucker was a profoundly under-developed, over-promised, stock-hyping scam of a car. An historical curiosity, at best. More like a monumental turkey.
Paul, regardless of your intentions to write a counter balanced article on the P76, the title of your article is inaccurate and flawed. And you wonder why P76 enthusiasts react harshly. The commonly held view that the P76 was the death or contributor to the death of the Leyland Australia is wrong.
Regardless of how the P76 sold, Leyland Australia was doomed long before the cars release. The parent company – British Leyland was losing money hand over fist and as you would well know was Nationialised by the British Government. One of the first acts of the new regime at BL was to offload most overseas interests. Leyland Australia was a work in progress with the P76 wagon still in devlopment and the Force 7 nearing production. Along with that was the P82 in it’s early stages of development and Leyland Australia still required an enormous of amount money andinvestment to bare fruit. Hardly a priority for an organisation struggling to stay in existance. Peter North, Leyland Australia’s Managing Director has been quoted recently as saying tha the P76 was cash flow neutral for Leyland by early 1974. Hardly the sign of a car that killed it’s maker! The P76 was an exceptional car that had circumstances beyond it’s control seal it’s demise.
It would be appreciated if you could change the title of the article as it is clearly incorrect and makes yourself appear ignorant and ill informed. Hardly qualities a good journalist wants to be labelled with.
Since you dont know obviously P76 assembly continued in New Zealand after the Australian operation closed, after a good showing in the 76 Pukekohe production car race several were tried out as highway patrol cars but the high speed handling wasnt very good, they were fine with talented race drivers at the helm but with regular MOT officers steering results werent so good so 253 V8 holdens were just kept on as usual, remove the traction free cross plies from a HQ,J, et al and fit radials and they are transformed.
Carle, please take a Serapax or Valium and lie down and in your relaxed state realise that no one actually cares about all the minute details you outlined and none of them change the fact that P76 was a half baked, under capitalised attempt that failed. Period. That said:
– there was no big three sabotage at all. They were used to competing with all manner of BL attempts at a “big 6” Aussie sedan.
– oil crisis did not kill any of the big three, so how can you blame it for killing off the P76 which actually had better consumption figures? Makes no sense.
Paul did not present the article as an academic study and I cannot see any bias or actually inaccurate important facts.
Before you ask, I am Australian and well remember the P76. My father bought two for his representatives fleet and got rid of them after six months. Why? Horrible quality problems and none of the sales reps wanted to drive them.
Congratulation Carle on a well present reply.
Thanks Paul for spreading the news about our cars.
My neighbour owns a Edsel (one of three in OZ) and he is proud to own one. I will send him this link.
I hope you find time in looking at my web site?
Some of your picture may have come from there. Thanks for using them
We are holding our Leyland P76 Nationals on the Sunshine Coast of Queensland next Easter. Why don’t you book in and come have a look. I am sure you will find any number of people willing to offer you a ride.
Well anyway I thank you again for highlighting the unique cars that make the automobile industry such a vibrant place.
Yowee
Why do people love to denigrate cars like the P76, Edsel, Delorean, Tucker, etc.?
Just because someone dared to do something different.
We live with the legacy of those so eager to deride the pioneers that try and climb out of the proverbial sewage in which we live – up to our chins. The majority spend their lives wading slowly through this quagmire and whispering, “Don’t make waves.” Naturally they don’t want anyone splashing around and trying to climb out of the s**t.
Schadenfreude surrounds us. Australians in particular show signs of this affliction in so much of what they do and especially when it comes to their own.
I would love to see the P76 knockers front up and talk personally to the engineers, designers and those that built the car. It’ll never happen. Heck, why let the truth get in the way of a good story.
For the record the P76 did not send Leyland broke. In fact it was the only car making a profit for them at the time it was killed off to appease the the Labor government, Union leaders and competitors.
That’s what makes worth writing about! Because they were different, and bold gambles don’t always succeed.
Here’s the key thing: “turkey” doesn’t necessarily reflect on the car itself as in its abilities to function as a car. It’s place in history, it’s positioning, marketing, and so many factors determine why it may end up being seen as a turkey.
The Edsel functioned just fine as a car. But the decision to make it created a turkey. And we can talk endlessly about the P76’s qualities, for better or for worse, but in the end, it’s still a turkey. Sorry.
Paul I must agree with James. Your article title is profoundly incorrect so your journalistic skills are already in question. Many Journalists have jumped on the “Bag the P76” bandwagon as it seems the popular thing to do. Being popular has nothing to do with being correct. Try the latter as it will reflect better on you and your profession. Good journalism requires thorough research with a touch of opinion, not the other way around. Are you reporting from the US? If so stick to writing about cars that you have some knowledge of. By the way, I have read your home page, do you have a thing for turkeys? You seem to talk about them alot.
This blog’s editor and most writers and commenters are Americans, obviously. (We are honored by a number of Aussies, Kiwis, Canadians and Brits who seem to like it too.) This is the Thanksgiving holiday week in the US, traditionally celebrated by bringing the extended family together around a turkey dinner. Thus it is turkey week this week at Curbside Classics.
In America, like everywhere else, a slang word is rarely simple, it carries shadings and connotations. In America we love our turkeys a little, even if they are not very smart and turn out to be losers. There’s usually a whiff of affection and sympathy in the word “turkey”. Please see my piece today about the Triumph Mayflower and its comments for good examples of this.
It’s also been my experience that CC commenters have spent some time reading the blog before commenting, since the quality of comments here is uncommonly high.
PS: This is an amateur blog, written for our mutual edification and amusement. For journalism, please see the New York Times.
As one of those citizens of the United States, I’d also like to add that the purpose of this week’s holiday is to give thanks; those thanks are often directed toward our freedoms, which include the freedom to express our opinions, which may or may not agree with those of others.
And with that said, I wish peace to all on this Thanksgiving Day.
Personally I’d like to give thanks to Leyland for at least trying. It’s just a shame their British masters didn’t give them this degree of freedom ten years earlier.
This comment reminds me of an actor mate who was driving his 7yo daughter from the mountains to Sydney. The car in front braked suddenly for no apparent reason and my mate yelled out “look out ya bloody turkey”.His daughter looked across the bench seat of the HQ Holden at him,slightly concerned and said “there is no turkey Dad”.
Wow Paul you set off a hornets nest of P76 apologists. When I moved to OZ in 84 the P76 was already a very rare car they had simply disappeared from the roads and noone was mourning their passing everyone was quite happy with Holdens Falcons and Valiants. BL stayed in the market with Triumphs ,Rovers and Jags but the dream of the Australian car was finished from the Marshall to the P76 it was over whether the P76 killed them outright or merely contributed is immaterial it was the last attempt so I find the title accurate.
Back in the early 80s in high school my friend’s Dad owned a 4-speed V8 P76. We kind of felt sorry for his Dad (even though he said it was a good car). People thinking they were clever were always bagging it out as a lemon – it became the standard National joke which probably didn’t wear off until the late 1980s. However, we only felt sorry for his Dad until we went in the car once we all got our licences. MAN it was good. So much pickup and it was huge and comfortable, a very nice ride. When I had a drive I couldn’t believe the WIDTH of the thing, but it handled fantastically, much better than 1970s Ford Falcons and Holden Kingswoods that other friend’s parents owned (and probably better than my Mum’s 1982 Nissan Bluebird which had severe understeer – so much that a driving instructor at a defensive driving course I did labelled it “dangerous”). The drive of the P76 was very different to other cars of the era, much more planted I’m assuming because of the reduced weight and MacPherson front end.
They were a great car and I still dream of owning one one day.
it became the standard National joke which probably didn’t wear off until the late 1980s
Growing up in Australia in the 70s and 80s, the P76 was the car that always featured in TV ads where the punchline was a vehicle breaking down or being driven stupidly.
I remember a tyre ad where the P76 is driving along a country road and all the wheels fall off at once and roll away, the idea that the tyres were so durable they’d keep on rolling even as your piece of crap car bit the dust. The P76 never got much respect.
After reading this kerfuffle in the comments, I can’t wait for Paul to do an article on the Mazda Roadpacer!
As for you P76 loyalists, better not make too much noise, you’ll send Jeremy Clarkson your way to drop a few pianos on them!
All the poor handling traits of the HJ Holden coupled to en engine which couldn’t pull the skin off a rice pudding. Great engine in a small, light car like the RX series Mazdas but not in a 1500kg Holden. Shades of the 4cyl Commodore to come. At least it handled.
Aaron over at ate up with motor is doing the Mazda rotaries he mentions the Roadpacer
If you are wondering where they all went, I’ve got nearly 60 at my car farm!
This is a helpful comment?
I have two smart diesels convertibles, maybe they’ll be written about as turkeys in the future (some say they are now). That’s OK by me. I love mine dearly.
This Leyland thingy is eye poison, but the fact that it did not sell seals the deal.
Of course they didnt sell the best seller of the time was the HQ Holden which was a good looking car that actually drove and handled well the leyland was awkwardly styled ugly and poorly made if they had any handling ability they would have been raced in standard production classes with success and P76s did compete in the Wills 500 in NZ and lost to Valiants with only 6 cylinders not E49s either just stock 265 automatics. Sorry Dougal but they werent great cars but hey buy one if you want to there are plenty around just not on the roads but Ive driven many 70s Aussie cars and the P76 wasnt the best by a long shot.
The Holden HQ was a smart looking car for it’s time but if you actually think it drove and handled well, well thats just plain ridicules. The HQ wel best known as woeful handling car. You seem to have some strange idea that if a particular car handles it would have been raced in standard production classes. Mainstream motor sport in Australia changed from Series Production to Group C Production Touring with more allowable performance mods.So no standard production racing in 1973/4 to race in. Remember also that Ford, Holden and Chrysler had all had factory or similar racing programs leading up to or during this period. Leyland Australia never had sufficient funds to take on the might of the big 3 in motor sport so there was no motor sport development program at the time. The P76 engine did though go on to win the Australian Gold Star in I think 1975 with John McCormack and his McLaren Leyland Formula 5000. As far as the Wills 500 goes, that requires a bit more research
You speak without knowledge, the P76 was raced in standard production racing in New Zealand and it did ok no it didnt win for 9 years Valiant Chargers won the premiere event at Pukekohe and before that Valiant V8 sedans won prior to that it was a 3.3 litre Vauxhall Victor
“Of course they didnt sell the best seller of the time was the HQ Holden which was a good looking car that actually drove and handled well the leyland was awkwardly styled ugly and poorly made if they had any handling ability they would have been raced in standard production classes”
they didn’t sell? 18.000 cars in 18 months is pretty damn good.
The Holden HQ a good handler, that’s a laugh, i suggest that you try to find a respected motoring magazine from Australia called either Modern Motor or Wheels (can,t remember the exact magazine right now) that has a very remarkable and memorable article in it where the mag did a 4 way road test between the Leyland P76, HQ Holden, XA Ford Falcon and VH Valiant.
it was a very extensive and exhausting test with the HQ and the VH Valiant fighting for being the worst AFAIR the HQ was worst of the 4 and the Leyland P76 was the best with the Ford Falcon being in the middle.
As for motor sport did you read my earlier post??? a P76 competed in the 1974 World cup rally and competed in a stage that was so tough many cars didn’t complete the stage (the P76 did complete it) and ironically the organizers deleted the stage after everyone had gone through it!! The P76 went on after that to WIN the Targa Florio stage and Complete the rally. The factory made a special model to celebrate this historic win.
read the book i suggested earlier “Bootfull of right arms” written by the driver, organizer, builder and respected motoring journalist Evan Green.
there was rumoured a P76 being prepared for the 1975 racing season in Australia but Peter North quickly put paid to that. My Source, the past employees of Leyland Australia at that time, they have an annual luncheon to catch up on news
The HQ Holdens sold at ten times the rate in the same market.
That 4 way test was in Wheels magazine they were trying to justify their COTY choice as usual I read it when it was published however having driven an example as fast as it would go Ill stick with my inpressions of how it cornered. A specially prepared rally version was probably good but hey I dont care I didnt want a P76 back then or now Ive owned enough cars that were better, more reliable better looking and better to drive.
The Rover SD1 was a better car and it must have obvious to management that Leyland Australia was going nowhere being cash neutral is a waste, profit is the answer and that wasnt happening despite the awards the car failed to sell in large enough numbers extinction followed get used to it
as i said before i don’t own a P76, i have come close but circumstances have got in the way of this happening (not the wife for once :)) i also have automotive tastes different to the mainstream as some of the contributors hear will tell you.
Money no abject of course
I would like a P76 (wagon preferably) and also a Tucker Torpedo but then i would have to have a warehouse to store all these cars i would like, SD-1 i dunno? i do like the outside styling, i know where there is one near me waiting for the owner to restore it or more likely he will pass on before that happens.
Yep i gave up on the COTY award too after a couple of dodgy decisions.
i have a couple of videos on my you tube channel with P76’s and a SD-1 going around Mt Cotton hillclimb track
Bryce, when you do not know what you are talking about it is best to back off before you make yourself look even more stupid. Let’s talk about the Benson & Hedges Series (not Willis as you incorrectly stated) in NZ for starters – a P76 V8 4 speed Deluxe came second to the Charger in the Benson & Henson Production series. By the time the P76 started Production Series racing in NZ the Charger was a well developed car, despite this the P76 went close to defeating the Charger and would have done so if it continued racing. The only reason it didn’t was because the car ceased production n NZ. David Oxton (he co-drove with Peter Brock at Bathurst in 1985) raced the P76 in NZ and was of the opinion it was a superior car to the Charger and would have beaten it with further development. Unless I am greatly mistaken Bryce, you didn’t race a Charger or P76 so we will have to accept David Oxton’s view! And what about your often quoted HQ? Let’s just say that it or the HJ (it’s successor) didn’t come close to the P76 in the Benson & Hedges series. Like you said, a good handling car would have done well in motor sport and the HQ was and is not a good handling car. Your comments about the motoring magazines favouring the P76 to justify their decision to give the P76 the COTY award does not hold weight, neither Motor Manual nor Modern Motor had COTY awards at the time and both magazines found the P76 to be superior to the Big 3 in all ways. This was confirmed when I spoke to Steve Cropley recently, He now resides in the UK and is Editor-in Chief of Haymarket Magazines but was working as a motoring journalist in Australia in the 70’s during the time the P76 was released. He found the P76 to be a vastly superior car to it’s opposition and is still of that opinion, so much so that he has even written a piece on the subject for a motoring publication that will be printed early next year. Sorry Bryce, but he has a little bit more credibility that your rants that you used to live in Australia and the car is ugly. Because, if you any idea you would know that the looks of a car are subjective, and many people in Australia now find the P76 to be a great looking car. I doubt anyone will be saying that about the Pontican Aztec in 30 years time. I have owned HQ Holdens Bryce, and you cannot compare the HQ to the P76 as the P76 was and is light years ahead. Paul, I am happy to invite you to drive one of my P76’s, and I will even have a HQ Holden on hand for you to compare.
James, I wish…maybe some day. But I appreciate the offer and you taking the time to enlighten us further on the P76.
Let me say that I like nothing more than to learn more about cars, especially ones that I’m not familiar with. What very little I knew prior to writing this post is from some other I’ve seen over the years, that parrot the usual things.
I didn’t have much time to research this piece, given that this is a blog, and not exactly like a monthly magazine. But it quickly became apparent to me that the P76 had specifications that suggested the potential for superior performance and handling.
And I did make an effort to point that out. I had/have no reason to disparage the P76 in terms of its design and engineering. I was not at all familiar with some of the more arcane details of what caused Leyland to pull the plug on P76 production. But nevertheless, it also doesn’t surprise me that there were issues with the final product in terms of assembly quality and/or parts quality.
Given that it was a clean-sheet new car, that might almost be expected. Add to that BL’s notorious issues with their other products in the seventies, it would almost be a given. But I wasn’t there…
It was clearly a bold undertaking, and the P76’s lighter weight and other qualities make it an interesting car. I can understand how the P76 owners’ enthusiasm, and how they might feel about any perceived or real slights to their cars.
As I’ve said before, when we call a car a “turkey” or “Deadly Sin”, it doesn’t necessarily impugn the car itself. But if the car failed, for whatever reason, then it is likely to be called that.
I constantly run into the same issue with our readers here and the prior site I wrote for, because of my Deadly Sins series. Many of these cars, like the ’66 Toronado I just did a few days ago, are mostly superb cars, but the decisions for why these cars were made, and what effect those decision had on their makers, is what often qualifies them for that status.
If I ever get to Australia, I hope to learn more about this fascinating car. Thanks for taking the time to shed more light on it.
Paul, I promise you, there are so many better things to do in Australia than look at P 76’s……..
The P76 that ran second had to be pitted to repair its exhaust it was gaining on the lead charger because an off had torn the muffler off letting the engine breathe better but those cars had to be stock so the exhaust had to be fitted. Developing it did not happen and wishing wont make it so.
I said the HQ was the best selling car during the P76 period it was its handling issues ie understeer could be fixed by fitting proper radial tyres the cars in the HQ race series still use HQ suspension Aussies and Kiwis voted with their wallets and bought Holdens not Leylands despite the best efforts of the motoring writers of the time.And they are still justifying their decisions
Mebe if Leyland had built it better it may have lived up to the hype but they didnt and consequently it did not gain a good reputation and after the X6 debacle buyers stayed away.
I worked for a Leyland dealer in 73/74 as a young man,so I drove many 6cyl and V8 P76 and also 2yo tradeins,Falcons,Valiants and Holdens.Driving an HQ Holden along a flat,smooth,straight highway the front would roll from side to side like a boat in a moderate swell,corners were no fun either.The P76 handled and rode like a European car,loved corners.OZ cars were reliable but certainly not exciting to drive.One salesman was a qualified mechanical engineer and he also liked the P76 and he said the 1974 models were much better built than 1973 versions.Michelotti’s original design for the P76 showed a horizontal line [no coke bottle] it looked very smart,but Leyland wanted to be able to fit the 44 gallon drum in the boot so altered Michelotti’s design.I met Evan Green when he toured the dealers with his rally winning P76.I drove a stylish dark blue,I think they were all dark blue,Targa Florio,basically the same car but if remember correctly it had a limited slip differential.Potentially the P76 could have become an even better car and I was sorry that was never fully realised.A local doctor[med] traded a 1973 Volvo sedan on a 1974 P76,I drove that Volvo and was amazed by the poor steering and handling
when you do some learning James youd find out the B&H series was restricted to NZ assembled cars the P76 was the only V8 eligible to race nobody was going to enter a six cylinder Holden against 265 Chargers and it was noted at the time development of the Leylands breathing would have made it more competitive, writers in magazines say what their advetisers dictate, the buying public and businesses dont.
I think these P76 dudes need their own forum!
Owners club, cant get over the fact their car failed where it counted, in the market place
By your reckoning Bryce only cars that are successfully marketed abd sold are good cars. The motoring world is littered with good cars that didn’t sell well. Our current Ford Falcon FG series is probably the best car made in Australia ever but still fails to sell as many as it’s inferior rival Holden Commodore. I am also amazed that you actually believe that the P76 could be that much quicker without an exhaust system To overhaul the Charger it must be worth at least 20hp. Thats impressive but doubtful. It’s even possible that it lost hp due to lack of exhaust back pressure. Still we’ll let you get back to being impressed by the HQ.
I watched the race drongo, The Lemon was gaining seconds per lap you plainly know very little about cars but a great deal about the biggest failure in the Australian motoring industry Ley land spent tons of money marketing its lemon every buff car publication at the time was crammed full of P76 propaganda The arse licking journalists praised it at every turn it failed utterly to impress the buying public. The punters with MONEY are the people who did not like the P76, bullshit spewing journos write what they are told to by the advertisers the only reason it was COTYis that. Of course a P76 owner would be unimpressed with cars like Falcons Valiants and Holdens they sold to people who wanted reliable transport and the X6 was still a recent bad memory
We have our own forum but educating yanks is fun
you are educating nobody but you probably put off any one buying a P76 and joining you club the sheer bloody mindedness and arrogance mirrors the executives at Leyland Australia beautifully Having convinced BL to invest in an Australian car to take over the market the cribbed the front suspension and engine from existing products the coupled it to off the shelf parts but the biggest SIN was having been given Michellotti as a designer whos Triumph designs still look good today his ideas were binned in favour of some drawings by who the work experience kid the result was awful and the punters stayed away despite the hacks glowing testimonials 18 months later when BL investigated what were they doing? rather than fixing the problems in the slow selling unreliable lemon NO L/A was busy wasting more millions designing a coupe which any market researcher could have told them would be hard to sell. No wonder BL pulled the plug theyd been scammed and they knew it.
look who’s getting real touchy now
You lot are absolute trolls I mean defending the Marina.
The only known Group C Leyland P76
as Steve has said, the P76 people have their own forum or group where i believe the photo’s in this blog came from and there is also a website.
Bryce you have a vastly different set of values to everyone else!
Comments on this post are now closed. This kind of pissing match is not what we’re after here.
Update; Comments are welcome again, but no pissing matches please.
Paul, in view of the “pissing match” that ensued the first time you posted this, I’m surprised you posted it yet again.
I might not always agree with your views, but the first of your pieces I ever read ( Toyota gas pedal) earned my everlasting respect, and if you wrote a piece about building an outside toilet I would read it !
Interesting article and debate….
Growing up in NZ in the 80s/90s I was very aware of the P76s reputation as an unloved commercial failure. When I was a teenager we moved out to a small seaside town, where our new neighbour was a P76 nut. He wasn’t big on maintenance so his P76 would inevitably fail sooner or later, for whatever reason… but rather than fix it he’d just go out and buy a replacement – they were so unwanted it was cheaper to buy another car than it was to fix the problem with his current car. Of course he ended up with 6 or 7 wrecks parked in the top paddock, these donated spares to keep the current car going (it also led to some interesting P76 V8-powered creations, including a S2 SWB Landrover – but thats another story).
20 years on I still remember my first ride in his P76 V8. So much space inside and boy did it go!! It handled pretty well on those twisty country roads too, much better than I ever expected it would. I certainly changed my opinion of the P76 after that.
I was never in love with the way the P76 looked, and the Force 7 was NEVER going to compete with the XA coupe, but I always thought the P76 wagon was a decent looking car
I own a 1974 P76 V8 deluxe with a genuine 54000kms on the clock, it is like it has just come from the factory, it is an amazing car, it is comfortable to drive, very powerful, keeps up with all modern cars & importantly it is reliable. I belong to the Leyland club & I mix with other P76 owners who will endorse my remarks about their own P76’s some have over 200000kms on their clock & they are still performing well & reliable, they just keep going. In this day & age the P76 generates a lot of interest from onlookers who have never seen one or never heard of them, & the comments are always positive with the P76 looks, it’s size & the impressive 4.4lt V8 motor.
I have owned & driven HQ holdens in the 70’s & they were good in their day & there are some good examples still driving around now, however each to theIr own I prefer the P76 because it’s unique & different & it will always be “Anything but Average”
g’day,
one of the reasons the big 3 (aussie) outsold the p76 was because only 10-15% of car owners are actually interested in how a car actually feels while driving,
look of car, marque, seller, gullibility etc etc etc.
i was in my early 20’s when the p76 was released (no pun intended!) having had been reading observers book of automobiles 12 yrs, wheels scw ahrr & nzhrm mags for 6-8 yrs so understood what the p76 stood for.
a much better drivers car best handling, best road holding than valiant (known as best quality slightly up market) hq (best looking under-steer you off the road) falcon (in-between the other 2)
the only reason p76 didn’t win any races was that the manufacturer didn’t have $100,000″s to throw at it & the other teams couldn’t’/wouldn’t take the risk. valiant only won in nz (note. not aust) because of the setup genius of ernie sprauge? (see hey charger book)
what i thought at the time (&i have the feeling that this was the thoughts of other antipodean car nuts) yes she was a bit ugly, the front & rear end seemed to be a bit of a rush job but just wait for the first face lift came, maybe couldn’t take 15 years of abuse in the outback as well as the other 3 but did that actually matter to most of us. what really mattered was she brought a proper european drivers feel to the general public that couldn’t afford the gamble of an imported car that fell apart.
by the sounds of it, the p76’s reputation was ruined by the advertising that took the p*ss out of her because they’d get sued by the other companies.
believe it or not the only p76 i remember seeing was here in the uk at a ‘wheels day’ show a few years ago!!
any way nice to join youse lot – this being my 1st reply.
michael
Was the Leyland P76 as bad a car as I’ve heard that it was? It’s not a very attractive, but that doesn’t make it a bad car. I’ve driven cars that I thought were uglier than shit, but were quite reliable.
Jason,when I first saw a P76 I thought the shape challenging to say the least,but over time it started to grow on me and it looked better in some colours and specs.Slightly larger wheels to fill out the wheel wells certainly made it look better.I saw one last week in Tasmania,next to me at a red traffic light,so cast my eyes over its shape and thought it still looked interesting.
That doesn’t answer the question I have as to whether the P76 deserved the reputation it got, or whether it didn’t.
Jason,were they poorly built? Yes,the first years production in 1973 had a few issues but the quality improved into 1974.One of the salesmen who was/is a mechanical engineer told me the 1974 models build quality was much better.The Michelotti design was very smart but Leyland wanted the boot to be capable of carrying a 44 gallon drum,for rural people in remote locations.I doubt anyone put a 44 gall drum in the boot.We sold a fair number in the approx 150,000 population city and I can’t recall many service issues with them.Several people traded Volvo 144 cars on the P76! Will never forget driving a brand new P76 Targa Florio from Launceston to Devonport,approx one hour trip,and being impressed again by what a fine handling and surprisingly quiet car it was to drive.I drove every version of the P76 and not once did any of them break down.The tragic part of the demise of Leyland Australia was that we didn’t get the P76 coupe,a much better looking car.
With a title like “Australia’s Edsel”, one would think that the P76 was the car to be avoided like the plague. And yet it seems that there are those who have owned Leyland P76s and swear by them. That they’d purchase another one if they could find a decent example.
Hey Roderick. I know what you mean. I’ve seen plenty of cars in my lifetime that I thought were ugly looking, but with time and seeing it often enough, looked really attractive. Still, there are cars that the more I look at it, the uglier it looks.
Definitely points for ugliness.
I don’t think the Edsel reference was unfair. It’s true for both models that the people that love them love them lots, but there’s not a lot of people that love them.
I’m not one of the people who loves the P76. The best bit is hidden under the hood but the car’s too eye catching (in a bad way) to be a street sleeper.
In defense of some of the pro-P76 commentators above, it is true that back then BL was on a mission to retrench from all of its operations abroad; the same happened in Israel with Leyland Ashdod (which was a truck and bus plant, but that makes no difference) in 73, so it is possible the car was doomed from the start.
My feeling is that there was nothing wrong with the design and that a properly sorted P76 would be a good car. When I visited Oz in 87-88 though they were still about and very much looked down on as cars driven only by impecunious members of certain ethnic minorities, but that was then and were I living downunder today I would not say no to one, particularly if it were sensibly modified…
Properlt sorted is the key with the P76, it wasnt the warranty claims piled up against it and instead of adressing the faults Leyland Australia went off on flights of fancy designing coupes and station wagons instead of making sure the base product was fit for purpose, its the same thing they did with the Kimberly Tasman twins they were unreliable so they whipped up the P76 as a replacement while theircustomer base already dubious about quality tried to keep their most recent purchase alive while making payments, A friends parents who bought a new Kimberly actually liked it but had kept their old car a 66 Impala lucky for them, the new Austin spent most of its first year of ownership at the dealer being repaired they certainly didnt entertain the idea of another Aussie Leyland, they bought a Holden built Chevrolet 350 like a Deville but the Chevy version and parked the Kimberly in a shed
I got to admit, I’m kind of a fan of the P76. I don’t know what it is about these cars that I like, maybe it’s because like most Aussie cars, there’s a very American mindset behind the styling and the mechanicals, which appeals to me. I will admit, from what I’ve read, these cars were hampered by the typical BL qualities that befell all their cars, and I’ve heard reports that being released during the gas crunch really hurt it’s chances in the sales department. Still, if nothing else, the P76 is something I like. It’s another guilty pleasure car that I would be happy to own if I was given the opportunity.
Thanks to Paul for re-running this story, for those of us who didn’t catch it, first time around.
Also thanks for retaining the many comments as they were submitted in moments of, er, emotion…
My impression of the car’s styling is that somebody tried to “fuselage” a 1967 Ford Galaxie (how’s THAT for mixing metaphors?) but ran out of money after doing only the front clip.
It’s not ugly but doesn’t “hang together.” Actually the Edsel’s front clip didn’t go with the rest of the car either, but its designers did that intentionally.
I can not comment on how the P76 drives, never having even touched one. But if Leyland Australia could not get a better handle on quality control than could its UK parent, it’s no wonder it failed after only two years. Bad news travels fast.
I am somehow reminded of a 1971 Dodge Coronet.
Apart from the too-small-for-the-arches wheels, that Coronet looks quite attractive (unlike the Leyland).
You have to admire the passion of the P76 comments. It put Paul and Bryce in the hot seat, but should still be considered a compliment. It demonstrates what an important world wide reach this site has. As the cars we read about here fade from the roads, the record here is important.
Some of the very best automotive colo(u)r names were used on the P76. Home On the Orange, Peel Me a Grape, Oh Fudge. Yes, they did that.
The 2-dr version reminds me of the AMC Matador coupe of 1974-78. And why is the track so narrow? It seems like the body bulges out way past the tires, giving it a top-heavy look.
Australia sure got some bizarre cars.
It really does scream “AMC” to me for some reason. I see why other American readers are seeing Chrysler. However, my summation of it would be as the product of an alternate universe where the Fuselage Chryslers and the 1971 Dodge/Plymouth B-bodies were smash hits out of the gate, prompting AMC management to say to Dick Teague, “Dick, can your guys do something like this with the Ambassador for ’74? Except, we can’t really do all those curves because we can’t afford it. And we can’t change the existing track or wheelbase. But can you work with that?”
I’d agree with you on AMC. They led the way in taking the US manufacturers into a styling (and quality) hell that they only started to escape from in the mid-nineties. Currently it’s the Europeans who seem to be coming up with styles that only a mother could love.
There’s a great deal of information on these cars at AROnline: http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/cars/leyland-australia-2/p76-p82/
At the time they came out, many of us were intrigued, but wary. Leyland had gained a bad reputation for quality with the Morris 1500, and the Tasman/Kimberley seemed good, but turned out not to be what the market wanted. I remember reading about the protoype Austin 1800 V8 – just as well that one never got the green light!
And then came the Marina. It gave us the impression Leyland didn’t know what they were doing (a company known for engineering company bringing out this?), and frankly didn’t stand much of a chance against the Japanese medium size cars. We all knew about the troubles Leyland was having at home also. And now they were going after the big 3 sedans? Hmm…
Against this background the P76 had to be great. Leyland said it was. Wheels seemed to think so too. But buyers had to consciously reject the Holden, Falcon and Valiant, which were proven cars in favour of an untried car from a company with something of a dubious reputation. Buying one was a brave decision.
Yes, the early cars had problems in assembly – hardly a Leyland exclusive. Word of that got out, with the inevitable result. But the engineering concept was excellent. It was not the engineering that let them down, but quality.
The early Falcons were a disaster in Australia with their fragile front ends. That was an engineering fault. Within four years that was fixed, and Ford went from success to success. The public forgave the early problems, and gave them a chance. Given a few more years to settle the quality issue, the P76 could have become a success – if the market hadn’t changed to smaller, more economical cars.
I have a friend in his seventies, who fondly remembers his P76 as the best car he ever owned, and wishes he still had it. I suspect he’s not the only one.
I missed that article originally… and the comments section! Who would think you would get so much humourless bile from Down Under?
Let’s put this car on the Turk-e-Meter:
– Wrong brand? Check. Leylands are trucks / buses, not cars.
– Wrong name? Check. “P76” meaningless but (as noted in comment above) can be read as “PIG”.
– Technically outdated? Check. Live rear axle, truck engine, 3-speed box. C’mon, get with the times.
– Shoddy build? Check. NZ ones seem to have been better than Ozzie ones though.
– Awful styling? Check. By an Italian on quaaludes and a company that made the Austin Allegro.
– Low production? Check. 22 000 made in ’73-’76 in Oz & NZ; BL’s forecast: 50 000 / year.
– Led to manufacturer’s downfall? Debatable — could BL have stayed in Australia if they had shifted more of these?
Turk-e-Meter reading: gobble gobble.
Pass the cranberry sauce.
Love that Turk-e-Meter and hopefully now that the Myer has sung, it’s over!
In fairness, most big Australian cars of this era, like their American counterparts, had live rear axles and continued to do well into the ’80s. (So did contemporary Alfas and Volvos!) One could argue the comparative merits of semi-trailing arms (the principal alternative in 1973) versus a well-located solid axle, but a live axle with coil springs and trailing arms (as the P76 had) WAS pretty much the standard of the times. Particularly if you were comparing it, as Leyland hoped buyers would, to an XA/XB Falcon or HQ Holden. If you want to talk dated engineering, the Falcon/Fairmont/Fairlane still had Hotchkiss in back…
Likewise the three-speed automatic. Automatics with more than three speeds were very, very rare in the early to mid-70s. The main exceptions were the Rolls-Royce Phantom VI, which still used the 1952-vintage, Rolls-built Dual-Range Hydra-Matic, and a few Mercedes-Benz models with the 1961-vintage four-speed fluid coupling auto; neither was what one would call the height of modernity. Many European automakers didn’t adopt modern four-speed automatics until the late ’80s or even the early ’90s. (Audi, in particular!) I’m not sure what three-speed the P76 had, although my guess would be a Borg-Warner unit, also used at that point by Jaguar, Citroën, and many other European manufacturers.
As for the engine, the 4.4-liter version of the aluminum Rover engine was originally conceived for the Rover P8 (pre-SD1 planned Rover flagship, replacing the P5), and since it was the same ex-Buick engine used in the Rover P5, P6, and later the SD1, calling it a truck engine is perhaps a trifle unfair. Again, most of its Australian rivals saw plenty of truck service too (the Ford 302/351 and 250 six, in particular), and the Chrysler Hemi Six was originally supposed to be a truck engine.
So, while here wasn’t anything in the P76’s engineering that was especially cutting edge, I really couldn’t say it was dated either. Definitely not in comparison to its principal rivals in Australia — I don’t see an Australian family saying, “This car really doesn’t have the technical sophistication we’ve come to expect in our cars” and then choosing a Fairmont instead!
Hi Aaron,
Of course you’re entirely correct in everything you wrote. Live axle was the norm, so was the auto tranny and other Australian engines ended up in trucks.
But you can also look at it this way, the Kimberely had:
– FWD with a traverse engine and hydrolastic suspension — in other words way ahead of the pack;
– an engine too small to be associated with trucks (which turns at least some customers and critics off);
– a decent, 4-speed synchromesh manual gearbox that, though a source of considerable rectal discomfort because of its cable linkage, still was a better way of accessing the engine’s full potential and maximizing mileage.
The P76 was a technical step back to the mid ’50s at best. Just because Holden and Ford were still doing that doesn’t mean BL had to do it too. In fact, it means precisely the opposite: how could BL attract any buyers if all they were offering was more of the same, albeit in a less attractive package? It’s exactly the same blunder they did in the UK with the Marina!
If you’re ahead technically, you can afford to be shoddy or ungainly. If you’re technically boring, be attractive and well-made.
Otherwise, you’re a dead duck.
The question of whether it made sense to try to compete with well-entrenched rivals on their terms is an eminently reasonable one, certainly, and the styling is what it is. I just don’t see chiding the car for being technically retrograde, which it really wasn’t. For 1973, I’d say it ranked in, let’s say, the 75th percentile among largish family cars worldwide, which is to say squarely average.
The superiority of Hydralastic and Hydragas was, I’d say, largely notional. It was more complex than conventional suspensions, but not necessarily any better. I don’t know how well Hydralastic fared in service there, but if I had been an Australian buyer of the time, I would have been very wary of it. For the most part, what Australia called “roads,” even in the ’60s and ’70s, had about as much in common with well-tended European or American roads as the Australian magpie has with the European magpie — viz., similar names for very different animals, one of which is a rough, brutish thing with strong homicidal tendencies.
Aaron, Hydralastic and Hydragas did not have a particularly good reputation in Australia- the smaller Austin and Morris cars with it were notorious for sagging on one side.
That doesn’t surprise me, given the rather small percentage of contemporary roads that even qualified as “improved.” It’s pretty clear that even normal family cars got the hell pounded out of them in Australia in the ’60s and ’70s.
Google the Morris Marina prototype. It was actually a stunning looking car, until the BL beancounters got to work on it and chopped off the nose. The Marina poorly competed here in the same market as Rootes Group/Chrysler offerings which had a better history and the upmarket models such as the Vogue and Sceptre were stunning.
this is really a weird one – I was scratching my head until I finally could put my finger on what exactly this reminds me of. First theres some relation to the audi 100
http://bright-cars.com/uploads/audi/audi-100-coupe-s/audi-100-coupe-s-11.jpg
and then there’s that typical british … oddity which can be found in such cars as the reliant scimitar
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Reliant_Scimitar_GTE_SE5A_2994cc_1972.JPG
but I also have to think of the Saab Sonett III
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-4DGu3_M-aDQ/VXHHGhi6ebI/AAAAAAABTHM/PnIzoWDO38s/s640/Screen%2BShot%2B2015-05-19%2Bat%2B1.44.58%2BAM.png
wonderful blender design 🙂
Haha, not only have I owned a P76 but more recently was a Scimitar GTE owner for 12 years until my (now) ex crashed it. The Scimi had plenty of design features but a few build flaws (perpetual leaks due to fiberglassing) and a weird-ass Triumph front suspension system (what was wrong with a standard wishbone?) but they were a hybrid of every UK auto manufacturer with bits of all number of UK cars – great for parts sourcing 20 years ago but many of those parts are now rare too. HRH Princess Anne is still the patron of the UK car club for Scimitars, having owned eight of them (her latest is the handbuilt Middlebridge -correct me if I’m wrong). I always joked why she bought the 2nd one (the first one was a 21st gift from Reliant). I once bumped into the daughter of the man who designed the folding bucket seats for the Scimitar at an Auckland Farmers Market. Loved all my quirky cars, despite their foibles.
I don’t find it bad looking, especially for its day. Sizing the trunk/boot to fit a 55 gal drum is a neat feature.
A 44/55 gallon drum will also fit in a 55 series 2 morris Oxford/Isis boot with the lid shut I know this from personal experience I fitted one as an auxillary fuel tank during the petrol rationing stupidity in the 70s, we had carless days and no private vehicle fuel sales on weekends in a futile effort to cut petrol consumption, however the weight full was too much in the Isis even with a 7cwt six cylinder engine up front to balance itout it was too unwieldy to drive so I went back to three smaller tanks and a tap and pipe system of 29 gallons.
The Isis was sold in Australia so far from being a new idea it was just a retread of an old one of boot/trunk sizing.
Good point, the average pass car will weight out before it volumes out with that type of load.
Agreed on the size of that boot – I remember going away on holidays in Dad’s Oxford (same body/short nose/less cylinders) and there was much more room than in the Falcon that replaced it. I’m not surprised you got a 44 in there.
Wonder if they ever tried putting a full 44 in a P76, with less weight on the nose?
I always wondered how you got it out, full. When I lived at my mates property in the Pilliga scrub we had a P76 paddock car and we bought at least one 44 of power kero every month lamps fridges and the 39 David Brown tractor all ran on kero we used the old 120 International truck to get our fuel the deck was the same height as the Ampol drum stand at the depot in town that system worked well, just how you were meant to get a 44 of anything in and out of a P76 is a mystery Leyland didnt give answers to. Very soft springing on P76s too I doubt one could have carried a full drum without bottoming out on every bump.
Forklift, I guess. With a VERY careful operator…
The vibe I get from the P76 story is that had BL in the UK been in better shape then it would have continued in production. I am not certain that the volumes it was sold in were so low that they were the deal breaker. That said, the front grille does look like some teenager’s art class effort whilst the rest of the car imho looks pretty good.
The Force seven was nearly in production when the rug was pulled from under Leyland AU, those may have made the difference most were scrapped but one was sent to the UK for evaluation by the mothership most likely as part of the Rover 3500 ramp up it became the managing directors ride it has since been sold and now resides in New Zealand fully restored and was at a British car show I went to recently but I cant find the photo.
Wow. 5 years on, it’s compelling to see how this story develops. Paul certainly did his best to remain cheerful under the hail of defensive fire. Many of us have a pet car in our psyche that we feel got a raw deal from pop history, and the apologists for the P76 seemed to be fused for an explosion. What we need to remember is that escaping the zeitgeist of one’s time, or past time, is a fruitless endeavor. An angry, knee-jerk reaction to a perceived “ignorant and ill-informed” blog piece says more about the emotional state of its scribe than it does about the subject of his/her vitriol. They’d have caught more acolytes with sugar than salt.
It’s also interesting that this piece was resurrected during a parallel moment in commentary on the US election process, where differences in political leanings quickly devolve into attacks on a candidate’s intelligence and physical being, and then are expanded to include their supporters.
For some reason, British automotive writers tend to rely heavily on snideness and attitude. And many of these writers inevitably write those lazy books about “the worst cars ever”, summarizing in a page why a car is awful. Once I even saw the 1977 Chevrolet Caprice listed in one of those books and I was gobsmacked. Absolute hack writing.
Why do I go off on this tangent? Because P76 owners have had to deal with both that targeted hatred – the P76 has featured in such books – and, to top it off, have to deal with that kind of residual dislike or mistrust of their cars. As someone said earlier, the P76 was joked about and eventually Aussies developed this perception of it as being an awful car. Flawed? Yes. Awful? No. So while I don’t appreciate the tone the comments took, I can understand why these fans would come in here defensive. It’s a credit to Paul that he was able to assuage their concerns about his piece and that the discussion became more civil. Paul’s piece was hardly a “World’s Worst Cars” page and it seems much of the defensiveness came from the title and a cultural misunderstanding.
I know what books you mean, one I saw listed an early 60s Dodge Dart with a Slant Six. I didn’t buy it of course.
I also remember that same book, it had the gall to say that the 1966 Oldsmobile Toronado was one of the worst cars ever. Talk about ignorance at its absolute finest, I thought that was hack writing at it’s best. I didn’t read it fully, but I assumed the author just stated his reasoning as “Oh the brakes were terrible and for that alone, the car is terrible.” (Not defending the drum brakes on the Toro, those were absolutely inexcusable. But to condemn a whole car for one design flaw is pretty over reactionary.)
British automotive writers seem particularly prone to nationalist snark. If anything isn’t English or from one of the two and a half approved European powers (Germany, Italy, or France, the latter only on even-numbered days), there’s a two in three chance it will be deluged with hyperbolic vitriol. Even if it’s competent enough to draw some grudging respect, the writer will expend most of the word count either rationalizing the good aspects as the product of beneficent influence (direct or indirect) of British or Approved European betters or else muttering about “breeding.” It’s predictable, occasionally amusing, and seldom worth taking seriously.
I’d like to see someone bring over a surviving P76 to the United States and watch people’s various reactions trying to figure out what it is.(I personally think it looks like the offspring of a 1977 Impala and a base model 1973 Torino), The P76 looks like another case of good intentions gone horribly wrong. Just as some of in the States will think “Cool! A survivor Maverick/Pinto/Pacer!”, somebody in Australia has got to be thinking the same thing about the P76. Automotibe history is full of the miscues/marketing misfires/goofs–ya gotta love ’em!
My two cents- I suspect part of the problem for the P76 was that very few people who bought Falcons cross shopped Holdens and Valiants and vice versa. If you don’t cross shop the existing product, why look at a new competitor, especially if the company already has a well founded reputation for poor quality?
And the people who would be inclined to cross shop would also be looking at cars like the Toyota Crown, and six cylinder Datsuns- cars that already had good reputations for quality.
You would really,really need to want a Leyland with the broad competition.
Regarding David Oxton racing the P-76 @ the B&H, he’s dreamin’..
I was there to watch it, & while he had several goes at it, yet he couldn’t
even out-qualify the 265 Chargers, let alone win against them.
The Charger held too many advantages, being lighter, & more nimble
handling, so it was better on fuel – while lapping just as quick,
& it was easier on tyres & brakes too, plus there were too many in the field,
..if one had a problem, another would take its place, & hold the Leyland out..
Not that the other showroom stock New Zealand assembled Aussie V8s
from Ford Holden, or even Chrysler could beat the Chargers there either..
I enjoyed? reading your article as I was once the proud owner of a rusty P76 Super in the early 1990s in NZ. Mine was the only one in the club (which boasted over 100 cars) that had blue upholstery – everyone else’s had black, brown, or tan. The Super built in NZ was a hybrid of an Aussie Super and an Executive, with the twin headlights and the alloy wheels. Aussie Supers had steel wheels with hubcaps incorporating the “beauty ring” as was the fashion. They had many unique features, such as the bonnet hinged at the front, hideaway wipers, that cavernous boot, Macpherson struts x4, to name a few. Mine was a standard V8 with Borg Warner 3spd trans, twin buckets in the front and bench in the back. The ride was very American, more so than the Valiants of the 70s. Way more leg room than a Holden or Falcon. They rusted at the same speed as all Aussie cars of the day, none were dipped, that was an extra that you did yourself with fisholene. Some readers are right: BL UK pulled the plug to try and cover their losses in the UK but blame was put on the fuel crisis and BL Australia building a V8 for God’s sake (nothing wrong with Ford/Holden/Valiant V8s) and some initial build problems. Back in 1991 there was an Executive totally rebuilt (bolts and all) in NZ that was then up for sale for the exorbitant sum of $15000 which was actually a bargain considering it was better than new. Hark back to the 70s and NZ still had import tariffs on new cars but we did build the big 3 and the Leyland in NZ – and all those manufacturing plants have now gone. Unions killed the UK auto industry just as our Western wages have killed the auto industry nowadays. I loved my Leyland (never did stop the windscreen leak) loved its style and roominess and reliability.
I, having never been fortunate enough to spend time in Australia, have never seen one in person. I have no way of relating to it except through Paul’s presentation. Yet, I know enough of Paul’s work to know that it is about as fair as it could be, and then some. (He finds the silver lining in every dark cloud.)
That said, the photos must not do this vehicle justice because the car doesn’t look good in them. It appears to have been styled by a committee. Not seeing a lot of wholeness to the design. I do have experience growing up in the 1970s and experiencing that nightmare auto-wise. This car fits that era. Sad to say, the 1970s was not a highlight of new auto design in this particular market. We experienced a series of confusing auto selections and it seemed that Detroit wasn’t certain if their intermediate sized offerings were to be sporty, or luxurious. Worse, they ended up looking similar to this car.
Finally, the name. It is flat-out awful. For a car that looks like this, built like that, it needed at least a name that gave it some kind of hope. P76 is a terrible name. It sounds like the entire vehicle is some kind of experiment, and not ready to use as a real Leyland.
Sad story. Hope you love these cars, you P76 fans, because the rest of us wouldn’t want to see them survive if it meant looking at them as they drove down our streets.
Kudos for running this one again, Paul.
Funny how a piece of machinery can be so polarizing.
Rover SDI served in UK as a potent police patrol and pursuit platform. It performed well at Bathurst, without the massive factory and dealer support teams of Holden and Ford. A few times, I drove and delighted in the posh Vanden Plas version. P76 was adored by the few owners I’ve known.
They looked better in real life than in photos. But the interiors were very boring.