Old habits are hard to break. How else to explain VW’s 1969 411? After being poorly received in Europe, it took the 411 two years to reach US shores. And for its February 1971 issue, R&T was ready to test the model. How would VW’s largest, priciest, and most affluent model to date fare under US scrutiny?
In the case of the 411, R&T was cautious with its text, occasionally damning with faint praise. Expectations were obviously high with VW’s new model, but its reception in Europe was a known fact. Doubts aside, maybe the company knew something nobody else did? The Beetle kept selling like hotcakes in the US, against all expectations. Could the new 411 be such a case?
With an entry cost of over $3,000, the 411 entered the semi-luxury middle class against the likes of BMW, Volvo, and Saab. Plus the domestics. A ‘bold’ move by VW, as R&T said. Like all VW’s at the time, the model got praise for its utility and quality. Fit and finish were commended in particular. Regarding the interior, it carried VW’s known pragmatic thinking with significant improvements in heating and ventilation.
If the 411’s rear-engine layout was familiar, there was much new in the 411; VW had certainly done much work to gain over skeptics. VW’s new car finally had 4 doors, was roomy, carried a new suspension, a new unitized body, disc brakes, and an automatic mated to a new engine with fuel injection. On close inspection, however, more than answering market needs the car seemed to be VW’s answer to naysayers. After all, the 411 delivered many items VW could have easily offered a few years prior.
Under driving, the 411 was VW’s best yet. The combination of engine and transmission was ‘pleasant despite occasional erratic shifting.’ It was the brand’s most maneuverable car to date, with handling that was ‘responsive and pleasant,’ and rear-engine tendencies were well under control. Mostly the result of the new suspension, with MacPherson’s upfront, and a revised non-swing-axle setup at the rear. Still, like most rear-engine vehicles, the model was susceptible to side winds; though to a lesser degree.
The luggage space up front was good, thanks to the long overhang over the front axle. It gave the car a peculiar profile, however, and the car’s Pininfarina styling did its best to hide it. Not an easy job for the renowned styling house. The stiff shocks upfront also gave the car a funny look, with its nose pointed upwards. To keep luggage space free, designers restricted the steering lock, leaving the 411 with a rather wide turning circle. In all, the car had a lot of peculiar decisions applied in order to accommodate the known formula to a new segment and changing times.
“As an all-around family car, roomy, well finished and capable of performing properly with an automatic, the 411 has a lot to offer… but perhaps there’s a market resistance to a car of this class built around the People’s Car layout.”
For efficient people movers, Europe’s carmakers were shifting to FWD even by the time the 411 was on the drawing board. Old habits die hard. Some can lead to an early grave. VW got a last-minute FWD lifeline thanks to its subsidiaries; first via NSU’s K70, but mostly thanks to Audi’s expertise. Without such, history could have played differently and the 411 could have been the deadliest of sins.
Further reading:
I remember the 411 & 412. VW was trying to hold on to the first time VW buyer who was moving up with a family in tow. Yet, the VW mystic was fading compared to inexpensive Toyotas & Nissan with stellar reputations which were flooding the east, west, and Gulf coast which were VW strongholds.
Now I see why VW made the great leap to water cooled FWD via the Golf, Passant, etc. The big issue with this platform was lack of initial quality which still resonates in my mind when considering any car purchase.
I tried one of these in ’74 or so. I was the target buyer, a VW loyalist ready to climb the Sloan ladder. I owned a Squareback and a Ghia, and previously owned a couple of bugs and a bus.
I was unimpressed. It was too much like an American big car, with big-car handling.
The irony is that VW didn’t seem to learn anything from the 411’s failure in the US.
I’m speaking, of course, of the ‘Americanized’ Rabbit that was built at the Westmoreland, PA assembly plant from 1978 to 1987. Seems that American VW buyers don’t much want a VW that was supposedly tuned to American preferences. They want a VW that drives like a VW. If they wanted a VW that drives like a Buick, they might as well just buy a Buick.
The biggest issue was probably that VWoA chose a Chevrolet executive to run the plant. The domestic version of the Rabbit wasn’t the PA’s plant only problem, but it didn’t help, that’s for sure.
Over the years, I have come across pieces on some of the alternatives VW considered for the Type 4, including one designed by Porsche, and one that transplanted the flat four to the front, driving the front wheels. That flat four in the front concept was later used by the Brazilian market Gol.
Yes, the Type 4 was obsolete the day it debuted. The Simca 1100 came out in 67, and the Fiat 128 in 69. Austin had been building transverse engine, front drive, since the original Mini, a decade earlier,
VW had a long learning curve to climb to build an up to date car at the turn of the decade. The longer they demurred, the more jarring the crisis would be when it occurred. I have offered before that the DKW F102, fitted with the four stroke engine, should have been offered as a VW, in place of the Type 4, rather than as an Audi, though I can imagine the howls of “not invented here” that would come from Wolfsburg at the thought of such a mongrel being offered as a VW. Then the crisis was upon them, and they embraced the K70, only to abandon it.
I like this pic, as it shows several VW dead ends in one frame. The plant itself, in Salzgitter, newly built, was rendered redundant by the merger with NSU. As the products it built were dropped, the plant itself was converted to engine production.
My best memories of the VW 411 was the stop-motion animation advertisement for the car playing on the idea of a “big Volkswagen” . . . . so, of course, the ad had King Kong driving the car with Faye Wray in the passenger seat. The ad was done by Mike Jitlov, an stop motion animator of rather good renown back in the 1970’s and 80’s before computers made his art totally obsolete. (He was also a cousin of mine, which made attendance at certain science fiction conventions fun.)
The car itself. Meh. I don’t think I ever rode in one, and the ones I looked at didn’t interest me in the slightest regarding purchase.
In the annals of automotive marketing, VW is surely near the top. It’s not much of a stretch to suggest that a huge part of the Beetle’s popularity was due to the statement it makes, and that’s entirely due to marketing. It was the right car at the right time for the anti-establishment ethos of sixties-era United States.
Unfortunately, even with outstanding advertising, if the product isn’t otherwise superior (or at least equal) to others, it’s ultimately not going to work. That would seem to describe later VW products (like the 411).
If it will let me post this, here’s a link to the commercial on YouTube:
Yes, Volkswagen did have some of the best ads around.
And as if that weren’t enough. More recently Volkswagen did an homage (recycled the idea) to that earlier commercial in one for their Tiguan at this link:
Thank you. I lost my last copy of the ad when my last Betamax died.
Oh, we could fix that 😉 (the Betamax)
Surely it must be that Pininfarina was given a nearly-finished concept and asked to nicen it, because if not, some contract dispute with VW must’ve made them feel malicious. How else to explain?
There is no aspect of the 411 that is decent. It has the face of Scooter, when he’s glum, from the Muppets. It is for some reason wearing some big brother’s jewellery, given how those blinkers and rear lights stick out so. It has 13 panels (a guess) to make up the rear, with all angled joins carefully made visible. It has some sort of gappy nappy under the rear bumper, it has a snooty-angled nose, and the said nose is an entire traffic island ltoo much in profile. The whole looks Communist Bloc, and about as welcoming.
In short, the thing is a visual shocker.
Is it possible plenty more folks might have bought one if the looks had some charm, or was even made to be nice? Surely to god the entirely uncool – and uncoolable – appearance must’ve been the biggest factor in its failure? Performance, room, ride, handling, economy were all on or a bit above par for a 1.7 auto sedan in the day, plus it came with VW’s famed reputation, after all.
The wagon is better but still not good. It’s a two-door – Germans traditionally were resistent to putting rear side doors on wagons (for tax reasons?) despite the sedan’s “four doors, eleven years late” sobriquet and being barely bigger than the Type 3 Squareback so that extra point of differentiation would’ve been useful to it. But no, and it inexplicably has not only a C pillar but a rear fender cutline approximately where the rear door shut would be. And they don’t line up.
That being said, the B1 Passat Variant was the first “all-German” wagon to be offered only as a 4-door without a companion 2-door wagon, after the (more than half-British, and of course US-owned) Ford Taunus TC1 Turnier proved it could be done.
When is a door not a door? When it’s on a 411 (2-door or wagon). Look, I like odd cars, even some ugly ones like, say, a Citroen Ami, but I just cannot cope with that misaligned shutline for the non-door rear door on these! Thankyou for reminding me.
Interestingly, the first Passat – Guigiaro, I think – actually has the same essential sort of shape as a 411 4 door, long-ish nose included, and is an illustration of just how close an awful and a quite-elegant design can be. The god is in the details (though I wouldn’t fancy a Mies vand der Rohe car myself, bit severe I’d think!)
It wold be good to know what the domestics were offering for the $3,000 cost of this at the time, and of course the Japanese interlopers.
Quite a few choices , then, for that money..
It wold be good to know what the domestics were offering for the $3,000 cost of this at the time, and of course the Japanese interlopers.
My 1970 issue of Consumer Reports does not list imports, but a Maverick 6 started at $2257. An AMC Hornet, in the fancy SST trim, with a V8, started at $2600. Dart and Valiant 6s started around $2500, and a Nova 6 started at $2652.
Among intermediates, a V8 Chevelle started at $2994. A Belvedere 6 started at $2998. A Falcon (which shared the body of the Torino and Fairlane) V8 started at $2896, while the Fairlane V8 cost $3084.
An AMC Rebel, in the top SST trim, with a V8, started at $3146.
A Type 4, at three big ‘uns, would have been a very hard sell, against much larger, more powerful cars.
It was becoming a clearly flawed concept, but it’s also hard not to appreciate the basic teutonic qualities of the 411.
I thought I was reasonably familiar with the full VW product line but I’d never heard of the K70, and it seems none have appeared on CC. Euro CC-ers have a mission!
I thought I was reasonably familiar with the full VW product line but I’d never heard of the K70, and it seems none have appeared on CC. Euro CC-ers have a mission!
The K70 came to VAG with the NSU buyout. Engine was an enlarged version of the NSU engine, converted to liquid cooling and moved to the front. I remember asking one of the reps at the VW stand at the Detroit show when it would get here. He didn’t know. From what I have read over the years, seems the K70 was pretty half baked, as you would expect from a company as financially stressed as NSU was when it was developed.
While VAG was spending money developing the Type 4, then spending more tooling up for the K70, they already had the F103 in hand, but decided to use it to relaunch the Audi brand. Probably a lot of resentment against the F103 in Wolfsburg, because “not invented here”, which was not overcome until the desperate days a few years later, when they embraced the K70. But then, seems Auto Union did not get much love when part of Daimler, ditto the engine VAG bought from Daimler to power the F103, so it had a pretty dismal reputation for reliability as well.
The 103 looked the part, of a modern car, for the mid 60s. This is the 80hp version, hence the “Audi 80” badging.
Full corporate price lists –
1971 Fomoco; http://oldcarbrochures.org/United%20States/Ford%20Motor%20Company%20-%20Corporate%20and%20Concepts/1971-Ford-Cars-Mailer/index.html
1972 GM;
http://oldcarbrochures.org/United%20States/GM%20Corporate%20and%20Concepts/General%20Motors%20for%201972/index.html
The gist is that $3100 worth of 4-door sedan could be a pretty much fully loaded Maverick or Nova, a typically optioned Chevelle or Torino or a total strippo Biscayne or Custom.
This was meant to be a reply to ADL’s comment above.
I was in Germany from 72-75. The citizenry had tired of the beetle, the fastback/squareback/notchback were getting long in the tooth, and the 411/412 were flops, and in that time I saw maybe 3 or 4 K70s. VW had truly lost their way. A fellow GI had a 411, it looked funny (even in the better proportioned wagon version) and was totally uninspiring. My somewhat tired P5 Taunus looked, rode, and drove better. Syke, above, has this car pegged: “meh”. I think this qualifies as a German deadly sin.
Remember seeing the , then, “new gen VW”!! Several were in the front line of cars @ “McDonald Motors”, in Butler PA.
I really liked the “yellow-gold” one..lol
Do remember seeing them on the streets; they wnt away quick though..
Only one clear memory of seeing a “411” on a used car lot.
Guesstimate is “1975ish”. It was brown.
The beetle itself wasn’t really such a great car. I had a 1968 and learned at 40,000 miles that you have to adjust the valves every 1,500 miles, cold, when it swallowed one of them.
And living in Des Moines at the time, which is not Alaska or Minnesota, it was never very comfortable in the winter.
Gas mileage wasn’t great — only upper 20s — though it was impressive compared with a Plymouth Fury or the like. Rear wheel drive with the engine in the back was a nightmare on a windy interstate highway.
Once the VW was updated, it had that German car problem of incredibly expensive parts and moderate reliability — like Mercedes and BMW. No wonder the make faded so quickly in the face of Toyota and other Asian imports!
I remember seeing a fair number of these as a child. In addition to the 4-door sedan and 2-door wagon, there was 2-door sedan available. I can see why they came out with a 4-door model, but never really understood the point of the 2-door wagon and 2-door sedan. They didn’t seem significantly better or larger than the Type-3 models. It always seemed a bit odd to me that there were a fair number of European sedans that were available only as 2-door sedans (The VW Beetle, Type-3, Saabs, Volvo 444/544). I never understood why they didn’t have 4-door sedans available, maybe with longer wheelbases, like Ford of England did with their Anglia and Prefect models.
I remember there was a Road & Track comparison test where they tested a 412 wagon against some other compact imported wagons. If I remember right, there was Volvo 145, Peugeot 504 and maybe a Toyota Mark II, but I don’t remember any of the details. (Maybe a subject for a future article if it hasn’t been done already?) I remember them saying that the 412 wagon looked something like a latter day Corvair Lakewood. I’ve also heard that in the the upgrade from 411 to 412, the restyle was done by Brook Stevens.
Ive only ever seen one of these and that was at a show its quite likely it wasnt sold here new, VWs were coming from OZ at the time this stumbled on to the market and other 4 cylinder cars were plentiful in show rooms with better engine life expectations.
It’s been discussed, both here and elsewhere, how the purchase of Audi/Auto Union from Mercedes really saved VW’s bacon. Nothing makes this more clear than the 411/412.
Volkswagen would have been headed for it’s demise – or spending fat engineering and design Deutschmarks – if they hadn’t hit the “easy button” for water cooling and FWD by buying Audi.
Volkswagen would have been headed for it’s demise – or spending fat engineering and design Deutschmarks – if they hadn’t hit the “easy button” for water cooling and FWD by buying Audi.
The narrative I have read, from time to time, was VW’s only interest in Audi was the relatively new Ingolstadt plant, to be used to expand production capacity of Bugs, as, in the mid 60s, the Bug was the thing. It is reported, here and there, the 4 cylinder/4 stroke conversion of the last DKW model, was intended to be the only, and last, Audi, before the plant was converted to Bug production. The 100 was designed by a rebel group in Ingolstadt that was not content to let VW snuff Audi, and production was green-lighted, coming to market in 68.
Without Audi, VW’s future would have hung on the K70, inherited from NSU.
The K70 does seem to have it’s fans. Interesting sound the engine makes.
I never understood that car
This, or a “VW” K70? Hmm. We didn’t get either in Australia. Going by the US price, it would have been unsaleable here.
The cutaway drawing emphasizes the ungainly short wheelbase/long front overhang look. The K70 was five inches shorter, but had a foot more wheelbase.
The first Passat, when it came, split the difference on wheelbase, but was four inches shorter again.
The 411 was meant to come. I had an old Wheels mag that had it as part of the cover stories, something like “VW’s new model coming here next year” – and I fancy that the local sales folk looked aghast and said “Oh no it isn’t!”
The Type 4 was Heinz Nordhoff’s last air cooled dream. He after all helped bring VW back from the ashes after WW2. The car was in development while he was still alive. He passed away in 1968 before the car was launched to the public and never saw the dream realized.
I had a soft spot in my heart for these especially the wagons in 1973 model year. Brooks Stevens did some sheet metal redesign, especially in the front nose. A much better look then.
The car was quite advanced when it came to the 1.7 fuel injected type 4 engine. With the D-Jet injection it was very responsive when hitting the gas pedal. It came with a gas heater to supplement the normal air cooled heat. It cranked out heat like you could not believe! With a trunk in the front and the area behind the rear seats there was a lot of luggage space, but in the wagon only.
It came with a high price tag and that did it no favor. Because of the new engineering throughout nobody knew or liked working on them. If problems arose they usually did not get repaired properly.
I helped my mom in choosing the Maya gold metallic wagon back in 1975 as a used vehicle when her 1965 Valiant rusted away and had other problems. She loved the 412. She always would remark how light and easy it was to drive and structurally as solid as a tank with the unibody construction. It truly was what I loved about it also back then.
After she passed away in 1995 the car went into storage well used with 126,000 miles. Well, I had a dream too.
After 2 1/2 years of restoration the ’73 Goldie is back on the road and goes to shows. People thank me when I bring a type 4 to a show because they never see such a rare thing. One of the best parts of the drive is rolling that driver’s window down with the ability to lay your arm on the door sill and just cruise. Remember how that felt folks?
That redesign is better, though I couldn’t quite extend to “much”: it’s gone from blank-faced gormless to neater but frowny, to me.
That said, good on you for having your mum’s old car restored, because by now, the 411 is an eccentric and probably quite rare artifact, and I’d look at at a show. And lordy knows, we all need some brighter colors like Maya Gold on the roads of today.
Probably not a real comparison, but in a way this was like the VW Phaeton 30 years later…a luxury VW, but few apparently were looking for that. With gas heater standard and lots more luggage space, plus 4 doors, it probably seemed like a good way to build upmarket cars, but like the Phaeton, it didn’t catch on.
The 411 wasn’t available in 1968 in the US when my Dad’s ’59 Beetle got crunched parked in front of our house, don’t know if he was looking for more of a family car (it was our 2nd car) but he bought a new Renault R10…kind of like a 411….4 doors, pretty good sized front trunk (but not very plush). It took another 8 years for Dad to convert to FWD too, with a new ’76 Subaru DL, living in Vermont at the time for both cars (we moved in between, Dad moved a lot back then) good traction was an issue to him, having the engine over the drive wheels helped.
When I worked for Hertz in ’77 and ’78 another transporter much older than I at the time (he was probably 60, but I was 19 at the time) owned a 411, probably the only person I met who did. He cautioned me not to make driving for Hertz a career (didn’t plan to). I tend to get along well with people older than I (which as I get older limits my contacts unfortunately)…he’d probably be over 100 now so I suspect he’s gone, no longer live anywhere near (though my niece has moved to that same town).
I’m a VW driver exclusively since ’81, but only watercooled models…guess I missed out on the aircooled ones, but mine have all been fuel injected. No gasoline heater on the watercooled ones.
These were a bargain when 5 or 6 years old when compared to the competition.
Fire sale bargains.
I drove and rode in several of these when near-new. Like the Type 1 they were quite slow, spartan inside and still noisy.
The death blow for it here in Hot and Humid New Orleans was the dealer add on air conditioning system. It was loud, shrill sounding and did not cool down the interior all that well.
A Toyota’s A/C, even in this time period, would freeze you out of the car even in August.
The K70 was a disaster .
The 411 & 412 series was better but not (IMO) great as it needed to be to unseat or replace the Beetle and Typ III .
I have a long time old VW buddy who’s dotty for these and owns several, he loved them and drove them daily to work before he retired .
They’re just too blah to me but folks over 40 seem to love the damn things .
The engines in fact outlasted the Typ I’s by a good margin and when they began to smoke it was customary to only do a top end overhaul as the bottom ends easily lasted 300,000 miles .
-Nate
The type 4 engine was a complete redesign and did have a very robust bottom end for sure. The old problems were still evident in the valve train design. Even though there was better cooling air flow in the tin design it was a larger engine and continued to play havoc with the valves. Far before any smoking would occur, the valves would break first even if you religiously adjusted them. Ask me how I know. My Mom’s Goldie wagon swallowed one at about 80,000 miles and this car had regular care.
I know William ;
Some years back when donated charity cars were a new thing I stumbled across a fully optioned Alaska Yellow 412 wagon, I wanted the BENDIX SAPPHIRE AM/FM/STEREO (woot) radio out of it, I still have the radio, he drove the car to and from work for years until it dropped the head off the #3 exhaust valve .
VW’s foolish penny pinching by using two piece valves bit them in the @$$ for 50 + years ~ my ’53 “Zwitter” swallowed a valve in Sta, Paula in the late 1970’s with this same guy riding shotgun after we’d spent the day in Sta. Barbara with Joe (R.I.P.) then the president of the VVWCOA .
When they began putting twin port 1600’s into Beetles in 1971 I was kept *very* busy doing top ends and complete engines as they’d make maybe 65,000 miles before dropping the #3 valve’s head and it often (about 50% of the time) punched a hole in the #3 piston crown and then got pinched between the side of the #3 connecting rod and the crankcase punching a good size hole in it .
I learned how to patch those “ruined, scrap” engines and put them in used VW’s I built as a side line, I’ve never had one come back either .
Because they were squeaky clean and didn’t leak / weep oil folks liked them, I know how to properly tune an Air Cooled VW to run the best, coolest and highest fuel economy too .
All VW needed to do was $pend $1 more one one piece valves to fix the problem .
Most Typ IV’s didn’t drop the valves, possibly (? likely ?) because they were mostly in town use, not a lot of high speed driving in the heat . that’s certainly what caused the majority of valves to fail .
I simply cannot imagine driving a 411/412 more than once to try it out ~ I’d rather drive a 6 cylinder 1979 Chevy .
-Nate
Hi Nate,
If you’re interested to write more, I’d love to read about your engine fix for the “ruined” engines. I guess I was lucky to never have any major engine troubles in my Squareback or 411, I was in my teens & 20s and drove them hard.
Thanks,
Dave
Hi Dave ;
I write technical articles all the time but they’re pretty poorly written .
I write them when a club member asked how to do a thing .
Sadly all those patched engines were before the advent of electronic cameras .
I was looking at a junked VW Friday that had a complete engine and wishing I still had the time to go buy, repair, dress and sell it on, I’m not sure what happened but VW air cooled are now worth $1,500.00 !!!! (wow) .
I do wish I had the word smithing skills others here do .
-Nate