We don’t normally cover new car sales here at CC, but sometimes it’s important to recognize significant trends in the marketplace. And who knew the Ghibli is the #5 selling luxury sedan? Makes me wonder how the Tesla Model X is faring in the luxury SUV market. Via Bloomberg.
The Eugene Mobile when the streets become dominated by Apple iCruisers and Google AutoDroids
In fact there’s talk this week that Apple’s backing away from their car project. Not enough profit in the auto business compared to what their investors are used to. Better to sell the electronics and software to the car manufacturers. Link here.
I guess that us, auto enthusiasts, can sleep relaxed now. If Apple entered, everyone else would try to make a car in the same format. Apple branded phone? Yes! My iPhone 5 (secondary phone) is great for a 2012 model. Apple branded car? Hell no!
Interesting, one minor note though, it’s LARGE luxury sedans. I’d still count the 5-series and E-Class as luxury sedans for example.
And this could be me – I realize the Model S is cross-shopped against multiple segments but to me it seems more of a 5-series and E-class competitor than an S-class competitor from a strict size (or perceived size) standpoint. However people obviously do cross-shop very different vehicles even in the same showroom (Mercedes E-Class vs ML etc)
No argument from me though that the major manufacturers need to up their game in this segment (all-electric) and do so fast.
The Model S is about the same size as the CTS, but they are in different price ranges. The CT6 is smaller than the BMW 7 series, with less rear seat legroom, which is what counts.
These are crossshopped as very expensive luxury sedans, not as large luxury sedans. The extra size of the S class is mostly to physically distinguish it from the E class, except for a tiny number of people who are chauffeured in an S class.
This was definitely based on some price threshold rather than any dimensions. I’ve had a 2012 A6 and a 2012 A7 as company cars, and they are the same size on the outside with the same wheelbase, length, width, every important part, etc. The A6 is larger on the inside, as it has a higher roof over the back seat. The A7’s passengers are literally fashion victims. The only excuse for the A7 being on this list and the A6 not making the cut must be related to the availability of A6s with hamster motors for sub-$60K prices while the base A7 has a supercharged V6 and an MSRP that starts with a seven.
A friend has a CLS. It is smaller inside than pretty much any other four door car I can think of. Even the front passenger seat is uncomfortably cramped.
Than ANY four door car? Test a CLA!! If the CLS is cramped, the CLA must be a nightmare. Well it’s just one more thing I don’t like. I don’t like the styling nor the base diesel engines (RENAULT! For God’s sake it’s a Mercedes! Why are people stuffing Renault engines there?)..
The Maz Ghibli competes with 5 seies and E Class while Quattroporte competes with S-class and 7 series. The chart is a bit confused.
Tesla provided the chart.
Hardly independent then. Monday I counted 3 of these driving through my vilage,50 mle north of London. Quick glance they look like Jags XF and Ghiblis love child. Bland bland..The interior does not look like a £80k car.Yes thats what they cost in the UK. My guess is that they will go out of trend soon and buyers will go back to gas power.
I’m surprised there aren’t any Cadillacs on the board. I certainly see more DTSs than Ghiblis, even if most of them do a turn with Enterprise or Avis before becoming someone’s car.
By chance do you mean the CTS or CT6? They haven’t made the DTS since 2011 🙂
Interesting to see the growth rate of the Tesla and of the market as a whole, and hats off to Maserati. But why have Bloomberg excluded the US brands?
Tesla is a US brand
They may have a base-price cutoff line that the CT6 (base MSRP: $53,495) and Continental ($44,560) fall short of. The cheapest car on this list (the Tesla) starts off at $66,000.
Also, the CT6 and the Continental don’t really compete in this class, being significantly cheaper than all other cars outside of the Tesla (truth be told, Cadillac’s real flagship is the Escalade, and Lincoln hasn’t had one for many years). Though the Model S would seem to be more of a 5-series/E-Class/CTS competitor, the reality is that it’s cross-shopped more with the cars on this list than cars like the 5-series.
Your assumptions about why the traditional U.S. luxury brands are absent are likely correct.
I find this disappointing from a number of angles. Perhaps chiefly, what is considered a “luxury car” today is more like what a “supercar” was 50 years ago. A supercar was something like a Rolls Royce or Ferrari that was generally unobtainium for the vast majority of people, but a luxury Buick, Cadillac, Lincoln or Chrysler was within reach of the successful in the United States.
In today’s more populous world, the is a whole class of supercar buyers, and some very nice, roomy, well equipped vehicles with healthy price tags are somehow “not enough” to qualify in the rarified world of what a luxury car is.
It’s because the American middle class as a society group falls apart to a point beyond denial, even though traditional luxury car buyers still buy the equivalents to the older models ( Warren Buffett’s Cadillac XTS, Donald Trump replaced Fleetwood with Escalade, and Obama’s Chrysler 300 ) but the gap is pretty wide these days.
However, maybe some magazines just don’t want to include the fact how traditional American luxury cars still succeed in today’s society as equivalents to Mercedes S-Class, when the price for a Lincoln Continental is more honest, and price barrier is merely an excuse.
The current Mercedes S-Class is not comparable to the current Lincoln Continental and not just due to price, any more than a loaded Toyota Camry is comparable to the same Continental in the other direction. I believe that the last time a Mercedes S-Class (or its equivalent at the time since the S-designation only dates back to 1972) was perhaps comparable to a Continental was back when when Mr. Kennedy was president and even that might be a questionable statement.
The MAIN reason the Tesla Model S plays in this space is due to its different powertrain and the extremely good execution thereof along with the recharging network that the manufacturer built (and subsidizes). If it were conventionally powered I do not believe that it would do anywhere near as well. The exterior is quite attractive but the interior materials and design are not of as high a caliber as most of the other models mentioned above.
As luxury cars, the big Americans had it all over the S class in the Sixties. They had the most powerful engines, smoothest automatic transmissions, and coldest air conditioning when all of those were novelties.
@Hubba. Right. All that great engineering, covered up with about 5 cents worth of plastic wood adhesive tape.
The top American luxury cars of the 60s were built to a very high standard, although not as good as Mercedes and not nearly equal to Mercedes handling and braking. The injection molded plastic, stick-on fake wood, and beachtowel velour came in the 70s.
I would guess that the reason Cadillac is not on there it is that it outsold Tesla. as of July 2016 . these are the numbers.
ATS 11,833
CT6 2,806
CTS 9,219
The Model S just about equaled the CTS sales numbers.
Those are not large sedans.
I would expect to see the CT6 on the list, though perhaps, like me, they couldn’t tell it apart from the other Cadillacs.
The CTS is not a “large luxury sedan”. Sorry, but that’s the market segment/price class in question. We’re not talking about the whole brand.
The CT6, which is only barely a bit larger than the CTS, and still not really a full-fledged S-Class/7-Series competitor, sold 1,343 units in September. If we extrapolate a 3 month rate, that would be 4,029 units. The Lincoln Continental is in the same boat, being somewhat less than a full S-Class competitor, and it’s to new to have a sales history. It sold 775 units in September.
To answer Roger’s question, GM and Ford don’t really have proper representation in this specific class.
Cadillac CT6, it’s a competitor to the Mercedes S-Class, as a larger luxury sedan in an international size, similar to SeVille/STS. It’s a size specifically for those preferring European trends, as the traditional size is DTS/DeVille/Fleetwood type, however XTS is a downsize luxury sedan similar to ’86 DeVille, causing it to be actually smaller.
The S-Class’s base price is $43,000 more than the CT6’s base price. The two are most definitely not direct competitors.
Overpricing among those brands is common, and Mercedes’s share has depreciated compared to the ’60s, at least AC or radio doesn’t come with extra charge, but it’s still there.
No one is cross shopping an S class against a CT6.
Right. CT6 is obviously Cadillac’s bigger-and-better E/5/A6 competitor, judging by the pricing.
ATS/CTS are confirmed flops from the previous administration, and are only hanging around until they can be replaced with numeralized cars. Cadillac’s new strategy seems to be ‘skate where the other guys ain’t’. Maybe it will work out.
CT6 is the same size as an A8 and slightly smaller then the S class. but it’s much cheaper. This is an odd list as the Ghibli is a size smaller then the others. But yes Tesla is selling lots but really I think they compete more in the 5 series E class range.
Definitely the trendiest car of the 2010’s.
The absolute top-class is often referred to as the F-segment. Mercedes-Benz S-Class, BMW 7-series, Audi A8, Lexus LS. That kind of models, the automakers’ flagships.
A Maserati Ghibli is one segment lower, so E-segment. Just like a Benz E-Class, BMW 5-series, Audi A6, Lexus GS.
I’ll pose the same question as in the last thread – why the uptick in Model S sales given the age of the platform? The 7 series makes sense, as it’s a new design, but the Model S has been on sale with roughly the same platform since 2012.
Because Tesla is still ramping up production volume, and the demand for their cars is still growing. It has little or nothing to do with how old it is; it’s the only EV in its field.
Tesla is moving from bleeding edge enthusiasts to reg’lar well heeled folks who like fancy cars. It’s one of those cases where most people *don’t* want to be the first with the latest thing. But second, sure.
They’ve been increasing production capacity.
Edit: Paul beat me to it.
There was a large amount of chatter that sales were being “discounted” in September in order to move more metal. Elon Musk apparently had to issue a directive to stop doing that although one would assume he was aware it was occurring.
There were also reports that Tesla was doing everything they possibly could to speed up production last quarter. Some assumptions were made that there may be another public offering coming up since the Tesla/SolarCity merger is coming up and Tesla may need more cash, so the numbers need to look as good as possible.
Once one starts to discount or the public perceives that it is occurring it is hard to get full price again going forward. Nobody wants to be the guy that paid sticker for a new F150, as good as it may be, for example.
People will buy Teslas as long as they receive numerous and vast subsidies from middle class folks who don’t have budgets for $90k cars with unpredictable residuals. Take away the transfer payments to Tesla from other car vendors in California and the federal and state subsidies for wealthy Tesla buyers; and then we’ll see if there is really a market.
No surprise at all. Here in ultra-chic Vancouver, the Tesla cars, both the Models X and S, are everywhere. I used to point them out, but don’t anymore.
I am very seriously considering a Tesla for my next car.
Starting to see quite a few here now too, as Tigard is slowly becoming the next Lake Allego
Tigard, OR the next Lake Oswego!? Interesting.
Slowly getting there it is…
The whole area is getting ridiculous. My mortgage and HOA together (and I have a stiff HOA) on a 1400+ sq foot townhouse in Beaverton are comparable to renting a decent 2 bedroom…or even a mildly swanky 1 b/r apt. Luckily, I bought in late 2011 when the market here had just about hit rock bottom…
They are now no longer on unicorn status even here in Vienna – even though the numbers are negligible when compared with the hordes of S-Classes, 7-Series, A7s and 8s and even Chrysler 300s/Lancia Themas. There is a general charging point at the park & ride I use, so for someone travelling to Vienna from the countryside everyday it makes sense.
PS: Adding that now I think about it, there are even a few Tesla cabs(!) here. Prius cabs are everywhere.
Wow, the Model S is outselling the MB S-Class and BMW 7-Series *combined*.
You bet the German companies are scared, and all of them are getting big into electrification. The question is, will the people who are now buying ICE-power Bimmers, Benzes, Audis, Lexuses, and Cadillacs buy electric cars from those brands, or does only a small percentage of the luxury market want an EV and they’re buying Tesla because it’s their only choice? (BTW the Model X according to the Bloomberg article is still outsold by most luxury SUV brands but ahead of Land Rover and Porsche)
Tesla has a big advantage over other brands in that they’ve built out their own Tesla-exclusive Supercharger infrastructure, which makes Tesla a practical choice (particularly on the two coasts) in a way that other EVs aren’t.
BMW has an electric supercar of some kind, and so did Cadillac. Coupes at that, and it doesn’t get much more stylish. Never seen either on the road.
Much like everyone went me-too on hybrids after the prius and yet Ill bet the prius outsells all of them combined, if not pretty close. Its a limited market, and its one that’s pretty polarizing.
I’ve seen a few I8’s never seen a ELR thou. Will be interesting to see how the bolt does to see if Tesla is popular do to branding or because their electric cars.
I have high hopes for the Bolt and personally find it attractive but think the form factor will hurt it more than help it. I think the real determination of whether brand or EV is the killer app is when someone combines affordability with range in a more popular configuration – something like a Chevy Equinox or Toyota Highlander with seating for 5 or 7, with AWD, at least a 200 mile range and a price tag of under $45000 before tax credits etc. Since the Bolt stickers at around $37500 that leaves an extra $7500 for the larger size and AWD which seems sort of doable (maybe).
You’re thinking of the BMW i8 which is a plug-in hybrid with a 3-cylinder gasoline engine, not a pure electric like Tesla. BMW’s only all-electric car is the i3 (if you don’t get the optional range-extending gasoline engine), which is a B-segment hatchback and hardly a “supercar”. Likewise, the now-discontinued Cadillac ELR was a plug-in hybrid with a drivetrain similar to the Chevy Volt’s.
Not surprised to see those numbers. Teslas are all over SoCal. There’s a Tesla showroom about four blocks from where I live in Santa Monica. I’ve seen four or five of the Xs on the streets in the last couple of weeks – kind of awkward looking from behind, IMHO. The Ghibli also is hugely popular here, especially on the West Side. Every supermarket parking lot has a couple of them. These cars do stand out a bit, given the overwhelming popularity of luxury SUVs (and CUVs) in SoCal.
Winter, 2014, 7:30pm. Sitting at the gas station I normally fuel up at, a very busy intersection on Tigard’s main drag, 99W, observing traffic while my trusty Ranger’s 2 fuel tanks are sucking off the OPEC nipple. The light changes. Up front stops a Tesla model S. Next to it is a late Dodge Ram diesel pickup, lifted, 6 inch tail pipe tip, etc…you know the type. Dodge gunning engine to signal to race. Light turns. Tesla was GONE in a blur! Never seen anything like that short of a drag strip. Like flipping on a light switch, and no noise to speak of. I was impressed; Dodge owner probably embarrassed.
Actually the US imports more crude oil from Canada than from all the OPEC countries combined.
On Jay Leno’s Garage, a Tesla Model S took a 707 HP Hellcat Charger in a drag race. There’s no way the Dodge truck stood a chance.
If they ran another drag race immediately afterwards the Tesla would be left behind by the Hellcat. After ithe Tesla does one full throttle run it goes into protective mode to prevent the batteries from overheating.
Any sport bike would have probably done the same. Apples to oranges comparison. And one thing the Tesla has going for it (or against it, depending on perspective) is that it basically does all the work for you. Theres no skill to actually ‘driving’ the car, the computer generates a perfect launch every time. Aunt Edna could pretty much ‘pilot’ the car as skillfully as John Force.
That’s probably why Jay was driving the Hellcat, and a little old lady was driving the Tesla.
Yeah, she beat him. ?
Hey, that’s little old lady from Pasadena!
The Ghibi is the biggest surprise, I’ve seen zero of them compared to the others(literally zero, I have truly seen none). Tesla doesn’t shock me being number 1, but it is interesting that it has sold almost twice as much as the runner up.
I like the Model S more now than I used to, but this segment is invisible to me, gimmick and status, blah. Every other car listed has such a pompous presence, while the Model S looks like a Mazda 6 in comparison. A blessing and a curse really, it seems more honest and purposeful than the rest of these, but I suspect when it’s refreshed it’s going to look really dated really fast
X2, and i live in Vienna which nearer Maserati’s home that you. You see more Quatroportes than Ghiblis, and more Teslas than both (although in each case the numbers are very small). And I have the same feelings about the Tesla as you do.
Interesting, but I’d prefer looking at sales by annual totals, and not monthly or quarterly. It takes into account minor abnormalities better. Working in the industry, I’ve come to realize that there will just periodically be unexpectedly slow months. You also have to take into account special orders, which typically take 6-8 weeks to be delivered, and do not count for accounting purposed until they are delivered, even though the “sale” is made prior.
passenger/cargo space cu ft
model S – 94/26
mercedes S – 112/12
CLS – 92/11
BMW 7 – 114/14
Ghibli – 108/10
Audi A7 – 94/25
A8 – 100/15
Panamera – 108/16
Cadillac CT6 – 110/15
CTS 97/13
If the people buying Teslas were looking for value, they’d be driving Camrys.
Too many Teslas are driven like Camrys here, clueless, distracted, dangerous.
What I want to know is, whats the deal on tax credits/rebates/etc on these things? Some cities are…or at least WERE…dangling all kinds of carrots for the purchase of EVs. So that big fat sticker that’s out of reach for most ‘regular’ people could theoretically be in reach for buyers that were more in near-luxury territory.
I despise hybrids/EVs, as anyone here well knows. Bu one thing you cant take away from the Tesla–it sure isn’t the blobby dorkmobile that pretty much every other eco-appliance is. At this price, and this demographic its obviously more about image and pomp than any savings of fuel. If you can afford an $80K car, the price of a tank of premium is a non issue at any price.
I wonder how this car would do if it had a gasoline powered variant also. On one hand, its not my bag by any means, but for those who are enamored with the technology of electric motive power I totally understand that. And likewise, one selling point traditionally for high end luxo sleds is that theyre tomb-like isolation chambers. The lack of any exhaust rumble is one of the main things that leaves a guy like me aghast…but in this segment, its a selling point. Still, I wonder how long its going to take before someone scoops one of these up with dead batteries, shitcans all the EV junk and puts a Hellcat drivetrain in one of these. Unsold Fisker Karma’s have already been stuffed with Corvette guts…
There is a $7500 federal tax credit. That works until the manufacturer sells 200k fully electric cars then it goes away (for that manufacturer). It is per manufacturer, not per model. Tesla’s will be going away sometime in 2017 per projections.
States issue various credits of their own. CO for example would credit another $6000 or so towards a Model S. Here it varies depending on battery size. So a Nissan Leaf gets a smaller credit than a Tesla for instance and a Volt gets even less (but still something). The interesting thing with CO’s credit is that the state will actually write you a check if your tax bill is not big enough to take advantage of the full credit. Stacking these two credits has sold a lot of Leafs in CO. The REALLY interesting thing is that you can get this credit even on a used EV if it has never been registered in CO. There are several businesses that are buying up used EV’s and bringing them into the state and reselling them, the new owner gets the credit, it ends up making the cars very cheap but is going away at the end of this year in favor of a different method of calculating the credit per car.
I am not aware of any “Local” credits in place but I suppose it’s possible in places.
The one thing you are perhaps not realizing is that there are many people who are plenty able to pay for the cars and plenty ABLE to pay for gas but don’t want to give money to the oil companies. Period. This is a more powerful motivator than I think you give credit to. Many of these people also have solar installations and thus generate their power themselves. They don’t like gassing up, they don’t like the oil companies and they often don’t like the politics involved in oil, wars, and the middle east etc. And yes, they understand they are reaping some subsidies themselves but that’s not their main objective.
I was at the dragstrip in Denver last month. There were several Tesla’s in attendance, they were running consistent 12.6’s all day long. This is faster than the Hellcat Challengers in attendance. Altitude obviously has a lot to do with it, a Hellcat doesn’t have 700HP up here. The Tesla is completely unaffected by it. It was impressive to watch. And the stock Hellcats were not very loud either. Nothing like the homebuilt Nova’s and Camaro’s etc.
Even factoring in altitude, I’ve come to the realization that the Hellcats aren’t that fast for the massive amount of power they make. Home built Novas and Camaros could hit 12.6 with HALF the Hellcat’s power. The weight and gearing must really hold those things back
I think the environmental/anti-big oil types who buy Teslas for those reasons are prominent but not necessarily reflective of the majority of the buyers. They may aspire to be like them, but only on the surface, being perceived as socially responsible, but most definitely projecting being well off as well. Same goes for supercars, you don’t see Kardashian types taking their 458s to track day, or their G-Wagons off road for that matter. They may admire the potential capabilities, but they have no other reason besides those that fit their real needs. That goes for virtually every car made since marketing has been part of the auto industry
Wait, Teslas have their own “fueling” stations that no one else can use, where by some financial wizardry the “fuel” is free? What is the future of that?
I don’t think Teslas make sense in a number of ways unless of course you have tons of money for a very expensive toy, although for commuter/local use something more like a Leaf does. But please note everyone: the rest of us peons are paying for the roads and everything else the owners of both use. There is no way that they should not be charged some mileage fee, maybe a weight times mileage fee so a Leaf and Tesla owner, like a Mercedes 600 and a Nissan Note owner, pay different rates. The sooner the better.
A Model S may not make economic sense (neither does an S Class), but it’s a perfectly useful car for many people most of the time, not an impractical toy. Most households that own a Model S have at least one other vehicle that will work very nicely when recharging would be a problem (eg, driving to brother’s house that’s outside the supercharger network twice a year).
Yes, electric cars are going to require new legislation and collection for road usage tax.
Right now it’s in the interest of those pushing electric cars to give the drivers of them as many subsidies as possible, whether or not they need them. So while the “fair” thing to do would be to come up with a taxation system to recoup from electric car owners what they don’t pay at the pump, it’s not going to happen anytime soon. Instead, as you mentioned, those of us who cannot afford a Tesla or i3 and don’t want to put up with the limitations of a Leaf will continue to bear the road tax burden for the EV early adopters.
Very impressive for Tesla. I have driven the car, and am not too surprised. However, at some point they need to start turning a profit, or at least narrow their loses. I fear the end is closer than a lot of people think it is.
The gross profit margins on these cars is actually very high (25+%), but Tesla is burning cash from its very rapid expansion. It has hugely ambitious plans, to build a million cars per year by around 2020, so it will need much more capital. Like another $12 billion or so in the next year or two. Expanding into a mid-size manufacturer from nothing in a decade or so obviously requires massive amounts of capital.
Despite the very real challenges and possible setbacks, its stock is still around $200, a sign that most Tesla investors are willing to take the wild ride Musk has laid out.
I’m not sure why Tesla stock stays so high just seems like too much of a risk. The 25% profit has been questioned by a few observers as Tesla warranty costs have been very high on the S and worse on the X. It may work in the end but the path to a profitable future is still very questionable.
Alot is riding on getting the battery “gigafactory” up and operational as planned. Without it, there aren’t enough batteries for the 375,000 Model 3’s that have been reserved. Tesla uses the old NUMMI plant that was designed to build 500,000 cars per year; the bottleneck is getting enough batteries to power all those cars.
so like amazon.com, what they lose on individual sales, tesla will make up on volume. 🙂
Interesting, I wonder how much the greater Silicon Valley area is skewing the sales even more than places like LA or New York suburbs. The Model S and now X are ubiquitous here, and the once equally common 7-Series and S Class, as well as A8, have just dropped out of sight. Anecdotally, I’d say the Tesla, Jaguar, and A7 are the top 3 here, and while Maseratis are more common than a decade ago, I don’t think they’re doing as well here as these sales figures suggest.
Probably not as much as you think. Chicago is literally crawling with Model S’ all over the place.
+1 They’re very common in Chicago and the suburbs.
Predictably, they are pretty common in Los Angeles as well.
I suspect that the primary reason for the continued success of the Tesla is one of convenience. Although they can easily afford it, Tesla owners simply don’t want to stop at a gas station to refuel. With a Tesla, they can either charge in the garage of their million-dollar mansion or at one of the free charge stations, which are strategically placed at higher end locations.
That, alone, is why the Tesla trumps all other luxury marques. Even with the priciest luxo-mobile, you still have to get gas for it, and that can mean stopping at some rather low-rent locations.
I’m sure people appreciate the convenience of avoiding gas stations, but there are cheaper plug in electric cars.
Tesla sells because it’s distinctive, prestigious, novel, forward thinking, and works pretty well as actual transportation. The same people bought Packards over a hundred years ago.
“million-dollar mansion”? Not where I live, nor most any west coast or northeast big city. Tesla country, a definite yes, but I’m in a 1100 square foot 3bd/1ba 1946 stucco box that is worth a million dollars.
This is very interesting, not because I’m interested in large luxury sedans but because some of you are much more knowledgeable that I about this. I wouldn’t be able to identify an S Class if it drove over my toe. Now if it was a Humber Super Snipe I’d be all over it, “That Humber Super Snipe just drove over my toe!”
While I agree that the Tesla phenomenon is impressive, and they have done an excellent job of building an elitist brand (core to luxury vehicle success), I still take their self-reported data with a grain of salt. First off, the chart in the Bloomberg article is supplied by Tesla, so it has their “spin” on the results. So Bloomberg really just pulled a Motor Trend and reprinted a manufacturer’s press release. I’m not arguing that Tesla’s results aren’t great, and there’s no question the Germans have been caught flat-footed in segments that they used to own outright. But I am not a fawning Musk acolyte either, and I think it is healthy to challenge Tesla’s data, the same way results from Detroit or Stuttgart should also be scrutinized.
If you look at year-to-date sales numbers through September, Tesla is the leading “large luxury” sedan segment, but Model S sales are not more than the leading Germans prestige sedans combined (Model S: 21,400, MB S-Class: 13,414, BMW 7 Series: 9,239). Also, both in size and price, the Model S straddles segments, competing within both the E-Segment (5 Series, E-Class, Maserati Ghibli) and the F-Segment (7 Series, S-Class, Maserati Quattroporte). Ranked relative to the far larger E-segment, Tesla is not first (MB E-Class: 37,576, BMW 5 Series: 27,705), and would rank behind the combined E- and S-Class and 5- and 7-Series in sales, which would be the most accurate comparison.
However, I think the bigger trend overall is large luxury SUVs replacing large luxury sedans. The YTD numbers through September: Escalade: 26,687, Audi Q7: 21,885, MB GL: 21,244, Range Rover: 11,525, Porsche Cayenne: 11,506. Add in the “mid size” Luxury SUVs and the numbers spike even more: Lexus RX: 76,240, MB GLE: 37,481, Audi Q5: 35,195, BMW X5: 32,818, Volvo XC90: 24,229, Lexus GX460: 17,545, Range Rover Sport: 15,345. For contrast, the Telsa Model X has sold 12,900 YTD. These SUVs really are the “Luxury Sedans” of the 20teens.
So the U.S. luxury market seems to be going rather bi-polar, embracing “green” ultra-high-tech vehicles and traditional SUVs at the same time.
The other fascinating questions is whether Tesla can maintain its place as the manufacturer of a “status” car when it brings out a lower priced model. Right now, Tesla has a snob factor that few others can match. Of course, part of that factor is its unique engineering and performance factors. Will the Model S still have a favored place in the world of the rich and famous when people of more modest incomes start driving them? I have no idea. The segment that Tesla plays in is almost more of a fashion market than an automotive market.
My own suspicion is that Tesla will (of course) cease to be the new hot thing at some point, and that this will come to pass sooner than later once a lower priced version comes out.
I totally agree that the Tesla is the “hot” status symbol of the moment, and that seems to be driving current results. However, this crowd is notoriously fickle and will move on to the next “new new thing” when it arrives. Ironically, I think many Tesla owners (at least the ones I know) care about the environment about as much as Genghis Khan cared about human rights–these “masters of the universe” bought the car for its “green/high tech” statement because they think it makes them look good, not because they are particularly interested in the actual product attributes. The other emerging Tesla trend is that the brand seems to be replacing BMW as the “car that a**holes drive” and that negative association may not play out well over time and at higher volumes.
Also, for all the hype about Supercharging stations, it still takes 20 minutes for 50% charge, 40 minutes for 80% charge and 75 minutes for 100% charge. That gets old when you can fill an “old-fashioned” vehicle to 100% in about 3 minutes at a gas station. That’s why, in the long run, I’d imagine that hybrid electrics will become dominant as the eco-friendly choice, since they eliminate “range anxiety” and can be all electric, with a gas back-up as needed, so owners get the best of both worlds.
If you could go 600 miles on a charge, that would be a good days drive, then recharge over night and go another 600. Useful range, with some charge left over, is more like 250 miles depending on the model. New ones are about 300 max, if you don’t push it too hard.
My CTS with a tailwind will do 4 to 5 hundred miles on a tank full.
WRT Supercharger stations: I don’t know about anyone else, but when I take long road trips, I’m at a fuel and restroom stop for at least 20 minutes. If we stop to eat, at least 45 minutes. Honestly, I’m not the demo for a Tesla so I don’t follow their every pronouncement, but to get that much energy back in the batteries for a (relatively) short amount of time, seems pretty good to me.
FWIW, if Tesla hadn’t pushed the envelope, I doubt that mainstream car companies like GM would have made something like the Bolt. I have to imagine that going forward we will see more BEVs along with the electrification of “regular” cars.
My own suspicion is that Tesla will (of course) cease to be the new hot thing at some point, and that this will come to pass sooner than later once a lower priced version comes out
Kind of like Mercedes and BMW were a passing fad in the 70s? 🙂
I’m thinking more like Rambler in 1958. The Germans will fight back, which may make it a question of capital vs. capital.
Well, GM had plenty of capital while it watched MBZ, BMW and other import luxury cars destroy Cadillac’s hegemony.
My point is that Tesla may have certain qualities, objective and image/brand-wise that may make it very difficult for the Germans to compete successfully. At least some Tesla buyers may not want to buy from old-school manufacturers that also make IC cars. That’s a potentially key factor. And it may ultimately be the key one if/when the competition catches up. Which will also not be exactly easy.
I think it’s fair for Tesla to compare its market share by price instead of size. No one who is considering a Model S cares that it’s the same size as an E Class for the price of an S Class. It’s roomy enough to be functionally the same as either car, and that’s good enough for anyone who is choosing between Tesla and Mercedes. I think it’s fair to say that no one (except for someone who is chauffeured) who is shopping Mercedes cares that the S Class back seat is roomier than the E. The extra bones for the S Class are a pure prestige spend, and it’s bigger so everyone knows you paid more. The Tesla just makes its prestige statement in a different vernacular than size.
The CLS is not bigger, but starts at about $67,000. The S class is bigger, but the BMW 7 is still bigger. The CLS is more in CTS size range, but the CTS starts at a lower price range. My CTS, with premium trim was at the low end of the price range of the Tesla.
The basic problem with a Tesla is that if you start off from the west coast headed for the east coast, you will need to recharge somewhere, and I don’t think there are charging stations coast to coast.
I can drive my CTS coast to coast without waiting for batteries to recharge.
If that’s the biggest problem, Tesla is home free. AFAIK, there are Supercharger stations at least where every Interstate highway meets, and between most of those intersections. You can drive anywhere on the Interstate system by using Superchargers.
There are poor/rural regions off the Interstate system where a Tesla would be inconvenient to drive. 110 years ago, there was the same issue with finding gasoline in the back country instead of hay. I’m old enough to remember when diesel cars came with a printed book of fuel stations.
(Note: Cadillac is trying very, very hard to terminate its franchises in small, poor, rural towns because they buy a tiny number of new luxury sedans.)
Most of the people who are shopping in the Model S’s price range are not considering driving from coast to coast, and most of these households own a gas-powered car that would be suitable for the trip if necessary.
Recharge time for a Tesla is about 6:1, compared to driving time. Considering that you never, ever have to go to a gas station on days when you drive less than 200 miles, that isn’t a terrible convenience tradeoff unless you do a lot of city to city driving or must pack a maximum number of miles in a specific amount of time.
In summary: Many of the people who are interested in a Model S and have the money can make it work, if it’s the car they want to drive every day.
I checked the map for nearby supercharger stations and I was surprised that there are a number of them on the route to Rochester.
Despite being able to drive anywhere on the interstate system, that still doesn’t make it a super-practical for travel. You may be able to get where you’re going, but how are you going to charge it once you’re there? I assume it requires a dedicated 220V circuit to charge, so it’s not like you can charge it at your in-laws’ home. Let alone if you’re staying in a hotel. So you’ll end up having to go out of your way and planning 30+ minutes for a Supercharger stop.
As the network is built out more, this will become less of an issue, but right now it can be a pretty big one. There is only one Supercharger in central VA right now, and there isn’t one within a half hour of the Research Triangle of NC (a metro area of well over a million people, state government, a huge tech industry presence, academia–fertile ground for Tesla sales, one would think.)
Chris: Of course you can charge a Tesla (or any EV) with a regular 110v outlet. It just takes longer. If the battery is fully drained, it can take like 2 days. More time to enjoy the inlaws. 🙂
Chris: a Tesla has a 200+ mile range. Tesla doesn’t absolutely need a Supercharger within a half hour of the research triangle.
However, most Tesla prospect households also own a gas powered car that would be perfectly fine for occasional road trips. The gamechanging feature for Tesla owners is that it’s capable of 200+ miles between overnight charges, which is sufficient for most people for daily driving. The interstate Supercharger network really is more of a publicity feature IMO, and a plum for fans who want to make a point of using their Teslas. But it does exist, and it’s probably good enough if you want to own a Tesla and travel in it. It wouldn’t be my choice if I were regularly driving from city to city on business, but I might drive it to my mom’s house two states away once or twice a year.
If you’re looking for a reason to not buy a Tesla, recharging on road trips probably is a good one. For people who want a Tesla, the technical capability of going anywhere on the interstate network is a positive feature that helps them justify the basic decision to own a Tesla.
Tesla markets the base Model S as costing $53,000 after government rebates and “gas savings.” A BMW 528i starts at $50,200 and a Mercedes E300 starts at $53,075.
Even at full sticker, a Tesla Model S 60D AWD is $73,500, and it is easy to get an MB E300 4-Matic or BMW 535i Xdrive to that price range.
As far as I know, Tesla does not reveal how many of the various Model S sub models it sells (MSRP ranges from $66,000 to $134,500), so there’s no telling how many of their cars are priced against S-Class (starting at $96,600) and 7 Series (starting at $81,500) versus the less-expensive MB and BMW mid-sizers.
My CTS’s list price was near $70,000. I got it at the end of the year with incentives (about $10,000).
I still take their self-reported data with a grain of salt. First off, the chart in the Bloomberg article is supplied by Tesla, so it has their “spin” on the results.
Are you saying that their sales data is fabricated? That could have pretty serious consequences as a public company.
Tesla is clearly comparing themselves to expensive imports. Whether Cadillac or Lincoln should have been left off or not is questionable. If base price needed to be well over $60,000 then yes. But the Tesla is not a “large” luxury sedan, nor are some of the comparisons.
My point is that Tesla carefully selected the competitors listed to make the Model S look dominant in a custom created category for a specific period of time. Bloomberg should have dug deeper and referenced the standardized year-to-date industry reporting from the other manufacturers, such as what is available from Automotive News (for all makes except Tesla, since they don’t have franchised dealers and can therefore hold their information more tightly). My issue is with Bloomberg in this case–feels pretty lazy on their part to just take Tesla’s information at face value.
There is unsubstantiated scuttlebutt that Tesla does play with their sales numbers, though I don’t think that is particularly unique in the car business. Here in the Chicago area, there is a Tesla store in Highland Park that is absolutely overflowing with seemingly unsold new Model S units– probably around 30 to 40 cars (no, they are not turning frequently and constantly being replenished–I see the same cars sitting in the same spots day after day). There is also plenty of Model S inventory housed at their location in downtown Chicago. How is Tesla counting these units? Sold? Produced? Registered? Non-existent? Who knows? The data is opaque to say the least, with no ability for Automotive News and others to cross check sales results with franchised dealers, and registration data from state DMVs is notoriously slow. Point is, the Model S sales information is carefully controlled and curated directly by Tesla. Makes for great PR fluff, may or may not be accurate news.
Search Tesla “inventory” for Chicago and only two Model S units appear on the website. Other markets also show very few units available. Maybe this is a deliberate strategy to get you to “order” a Tesla or visit a retail location, but it is very different than the way other makes allow you to view in-stock units at dealers. I’d wager that Tesla doesn’t want it to appear that there are plenty of units on the ground available for immediate delivery. That wouldn’t seem quite so “hot.”
As for being a publicly traded company, I think there is more than enough information for investors to make a judicious call on the company’s business prospects, so long as they are willing to sift through the hype and not be solely reliant on only the information that Tesla releases.
Of course the sales stats come from Tesla. Who else? Everyone reports their own sales stats.
And unlike all the other manufacturers, Tesla counts a car as being sold when it is actually registered/titled with the new owner.
It’s interesting that both you and Eric are so suspicious of Tesla’s sales numnbers. Yes, they always try to push hard on sales and production at the end of their quarters, but even my son, who is a professional Tesla skeptic, has no real issues with their sales numbers. The point I was making is that Tesla prides themselves on transparency, and how they account for their sales numbers, based on actual registrations, is much more transparent than the rest of the industry.
Either their numbers are accurate based on their reporting protocol, or they’re lying. If you have basis to think it’s the latter, let my son know, because he jumps on every possible angle to make Tesla look bad.
Admittedly Tesla “chose” the competition in this chart. But to suggest that they “chose” their own sales nmbers is a stretch. If anyone could prove it, it would be a huge black eye and get them in serious trouble with the SEC, as these are highly “material” numbers in terms of public information for their investors.
There’s plenty of angles to find basis for Tesla skepticism, but I’ve never heard anyone express serious doubts about the varacity of their reported deliveries.
I’d suggest that your son check out inventory levels at Tesla locations then. I forgot to mention that there is an additional back lot at Highland Park Tesla brimming with more cars, just not as visible because it is behind a fence. For comparison purposes, the number of cars on the Tesla lots seem to be in line with the new inventory you see at local BMW and Mercedes dealers–only that includes ALL their cars, so primarily 3 Series and C Class units, selling at a lower price point than any Tesla. I find it truly hard to believe that Tesla is now selling at that sort of volume here.
In 2015, Illinois accounted for 4.3% of Model S sales (#10 state for Tesla sales), so assuming that percentage is roughly constant for 2016, that would mean Illinois saw 1,475 Tesla registrations in the first 9 months of the year, or approximately 164 per month total. There are 4 dealers in the state, all in Metro Chicago. I’m familiar with 3 of those locations, and the inventory situation at each is similarly abundant. Let’s say for the sake of argument that there are 400+ Model S units on the ground in Chicago. Plenty of Model X units too, maybe another 200. At the historic selling rate in Illinois, that is a 90+ days supply of Tesla cars that aren’t yet in owners hands. That is a LOT of high end EV inventory for wealthy Chicagoans to swallow, particularly since many early adopters have adopted. Since the inventory is clearly unsold, not sure how it is counted, but I find it hard to believe that their sales volume is rocketing to such an extent that this is a “normal” inventory level for luxury electric vehicles.
While I do see plenty of Teslas on the road here, there is no shortage of the new 7 Series (seeing LOTS more of those now with the revamp) and plenty of new S Class/GL Class/E Class models on the road. Porsche Macans are also super popular here right now. The competition for high end buyers is fierce, and the über-luxury market in Metro Chicago is not THAT big.
The only registration data I would fully buy into comes from Ward’s, where they directly work with the state DMVs. That process is very slow, so in reality no one can definitively confirm Tesla’s results until at least 3 months later. We’ll see at the end of this year how many Teslas really sold in the U.S. in Q3, and to what sort of buyers (“fleet” sales to “companies” or individual buyers). Believe me, Chicago’s North Shore suburbs are “Ground Zero” for this type of car, so based on their numbers I should be seeing an enormous surge of Teslas on the roads right here right now, which I am not–maybe the huge increase is happening in other states and the most affluent zip codes in Illinois are no longer as vital to their mix. More power to them if that is actually the case. But then I would wonder how aggressively they are discounting the cars to move them at that sort of velocity… And I would wonder what they are going to do with all the unsold Teslas on the lots in Chicago as we head into winter…
I can only repeat what Tesla’s policy is regarding their quarterly sales stats:
“Tesla only counts a delivery if it is transferred to the end customer and all paperwork is correct.”
Tesla drastically ramps up production near the end of each quarter. maybe there were a lot of cars shipped to those dealers thta needed to be processed and delivered? I don’t really know how to answer your observations. My son has covered the issue of Tesla inventories before, but it doesn’t really come to a whole lot overall, inasmuch as if they’re not delivered, they’re not counted as “sales”.
The sales numbers (which I have no reason to doubt) are interesting in that the third quarter seems to show a huge surge in sales (in the U.S.), almost double the first two quarters combined.
Tesla as far as I am aware does NOT publish monthly sales numbers as opposed to every other manufacturer, so sites like GoodCarBadCar rely on estimates by the Wall Street Journal and HybridCars.com. I do not know if they report sales by model in their quarterly conference calls or just report total sales if even that.
These two sites estimate YearToDate 2016 sales as being between 19450 (WSJ) and 21400 (HC.C) for the Model S. For discussion purposes if we average the two sources we come up with 20425 sold in the first 9 months, making the most recent quarter almost as good as the first two combined. That’s huge. Next quarter will be interesting to see in regard to sustainability of those sales numbers.
Interestingly the CLS and the E-Class’s numbers are apparently sometimes reported as a “combined” number by Mercedes themselves, indicating that Mercedes sees the two models as parts of the same line (like Toyota did with Corolla and Matrix which kind of makes sense and also how Hyundai does it with Genesis sedan and Genesis coupe which makes zero sense). However, counting the E-Class in the chart above would paint a completely different picture for Tesla as would the BMW 5-series. A good part of those ranges definitely overlap Tesla in price and prestige.
Of course it could also certainly be that Tesla buyers are surveyed as to what other cars they cross-shopped or considered and the above list were the ones most often reported.
I know what Tesla claims about how they measure their sales, and it all sounds very wonderful and new-age and transparent. I also know that Philip Morris used to tell consumers that smoking was safe. So call me jaded about corporate claims 🙂
Delivering the equivalent of 5 Teslas per day for every day in the month just in Chicago alone seems high to me. According to Urban Science as reported in Automotive News, in 2014 the average U.S. dealer sold 921 units annually (including high volume brands like Toyota). For comparison, based on the reported results, each of the 4 Tesla stores in Chicago would be on track to sell 492 units on an annualized basis. Pretty impressive for an electric-only car that stickers for more than $60,000. Saturdays must be hopping at those Chicago Tesla stores! Except that when you drive by these stores on Saturday they aren’t exactly bustling… Well, maybe that is happening elsewhere in the country to produce such outstanding results.
GN: I’m in a smaller city with a Tesla showroom, and I’m seeing a lot of Model S’s this year. They’re much more common than new S Classes, but not a patch on expensive SUVs.
The tobacco companies were successfully convicted under RICO for lying to Congress, so I’m not really sure what your point is there. A lie is theoretically possible, but Tesla and its managers face powerful civil and criminal sanctions if it’s proven that they’re materially lying about the past performance of their publicly traded company, as Paul and Aaron say. Actual sales history in dollars, units, etc, is number one on that list of lies, and it WILL be found if and when the company goes bust. A lot of shareholders’ lawyers and accountants would read the books to find reasons to attach the directors’ personal assets in civil actions, and every SEC prosecutor would want Elon Musk’s head in their personal trophy cabinet. (Forecasts generally aren’t actionable, except to the extent that they use fraudulent past performance.).
The Tesla-supplied data made me a little skeptical too. My skepticism was heightened by the following quote:
“Tesla Chief Executive Officer Elon Musk had been pushing employees to sell as many cars as possible in an effort to achieve a profitable quarter”
…and then that the Bloomberg article (& accompanying data) focuses exclusively on 3rd Quarter sales. Not on model-year or calendar-year sales, but 3Q sales. From a data-analysis perspective, that sets of alarm bells.
It seems to me (and maybe I’m being too cynical) that Tesla wanted to prove its financial health to investors, so it issues a press release ‘proving’ its profitability, and the Bloomberg article was a rewrite of that.
While, it’s clear to me that Tesla is popular among in the high-end luxury market, I think the specific information provided by them should be consumed with a grain or two of salt.
Speaking of the 3rd quarter 2016: it was Mercedes’ best quarter ever, more than 531,000 cars were sold.
Full year data is of course also available on Tesla sales. There’s no doubt they had a good quarter, and that they were pushing hard to achieve a good number. But who doesn’t do that all the time?
And unlike the rest of the industry, Tesla only counts cars that are “delivered” or registered with their new owner, not just deliveries to their dealers or such. It is committed to a higher degree of transparency in that regard than the competition. And since they control the whole process to the point of hand-off to their buyers, they have direct access to those numbers.
Similar to what GN said above, my issue isn’t so much with Tesla as it is with Bloomberg for essentially regurgitating a company’s press release and passing it off as news, with no further analysis. I know, it happens all the time, but it’s still a pet peeve of mine.
I don’t want to belabor the point, but when a car manufacturer issues a press release showing sales numbers of its cars vs. competitor’s, what’s a media outlet supposed to do? There’s no way to fact check it, except perhaps to look up the other manufacturer’s media sites to make sure Tesla didn’t fudge those numbers.
What would you have had Bloomberg do? It’s really all just about a set of numbers.
Yes, the media does all too often lack scrutiny of what the regurgitate. But I would pick a very different example than this one. I see profoundly worse examples all the time.
I think the complaint here was they cherry picked the competition instead of posting the higher selling 5 series and E class. Bloomberg could have pulled some sales stats up pretty easy for other large luxury cars.
I think Paul also makes a good point regarding public companies being on the hook when it comes to this kind of data. Obviously, you can take perfectly accurate numbers and spin them to create all kinds of dubious connotations — people do that all the time — but for a company selling stock, the SEC gets awfully snippy, and for good reason.
Since most of the industry releases sales stats, I suppose somebody who wanted to create a different list could just pull the different figures and make their own.
My surprise is the LS decline. Lexus…what are you going to do?
It’s a pretty stodgy looking car compared to many of the others on the list. But given what Toyota’s new design language has done to so many of its other products (esp the RX and Prius), I shudder to think about what they are going to do to the LS.
The LF-FC is the early preview; the new LS is due to debut sometime next year:
With that snout they could call it the Braun Edition.
It reminds me more of the movie Predator.