(first posted 10/5/2016) In 1955, flathead V8s were no longer powering North American cars. The creator of this legendary engine, Ford, had moved on to more modern designs. Side-valves were on their way out in most places. OHVs (sometimes via OHC) were becoming the norm, as flatheads displayed rather limited efficiency. But one company stuck with flathead V8s, as it had inherited a revamped V8-60 from Ford in a brand new body shell. That company, Simca, would build our small V8 into the ‘60s.
As we have seen in the previous episode of this series, Simca (Société Industrielle de Mécanique et de Carrosserie Automobile) bought Ford SAF’s main manufacturing plant in Poissy, just west of Paris, in 1954. With the plant came a new unibody car, the Vedette 55, powered by a 2351cc flathead V8 called “Aquilon,” a direct descendant of the original V8-60 of 1935.
The Only V8 In Its Class
There was nothing quite like the 1955 Simca Vedette. Production 8-cyl. cars were extremely rare and exclusive in Europe by then, far more so than in the ‘30s (or even the ‘60s).
Here they all are. Clockwise from top left: Rolls-Royce’s heads-of-state-only Phantom IV sported the world’s last “production” straight eight; BMW had come out with the 502’s all-alloy V8 in 1954; Facel-Vega had just introduced its DeSoto hemi-powered FV1; a trickle of potent Pegaso Z-103 sports cars were available in Spain. (Also, a handful of the 2-litre Fiat 8V chassis were still up for grabs, though production had already stopped.) All very high-brow and, except for the BMW, made in homeopathic quantities.
And then, there was the Simca: an affordable mini-American car for the well-heeled middle-classes. Simca’s range in 1955 still included a few of the older Ford SAF cars (the Monte-Carlo coupé and the Abeille commercial saloon). The new V8 cars were the Trianon (base trim), the mid-range Versailles and the snazzy Régence. The rest of the range were 4-cyl. Arondes, a very successful car designed by Fiat, Simca’s parent company. Simca also produced the Unic and Cargo (ex-Ford) trucks and Somua tractors.
Domestically, Simca downplayed the “Vedette” name. It was associated with Ford SAF and its earlier car, neither of which had been overly successful. In France, the car was usually referred to as the “Versailles.” Although the motoring press derided the Aquilon’s ancient design and well-known shortcomings (overheating, thirst and sluggishness), the Simca Vedette sold very well: over 42,000 in 1955.
The car’s relatively low price was due to Ford SAF’s cost-killing exercise of 1953-54, which was then furthered by Simca boss Henri-Theodore Pigozzi, who drove the unions out of Poissy and methodically nickel-and-dimed every component and every outside supplier. Incomes were increasing in France (and Europe generally) in the mid-‘50s. This, coupled with modern transatlantic looks and a well-appointed interior, explains why Simca were selling so many more V8s than Ford ever did.
Export sales, though modest outside of continental Europe (partially due to Simca’s low name recognition and limited dealer network), were rising. Even accounting for tariffs, the Vedette was still the cheapest V8 – and the post-war economic boom was felt in many corners of the world.
Domestic competition had thinned out by the mid-‘50s for a 13 CV (fiscal horsepower) car like the Simca Versailles (mid-1956 list price: FF 899,000). Two cars were in the Versailles’ price and power range: Renault’s newly updated 12 CV Frégate Amiral, a 1951 design that had never enjoyed much success (price: FF 862,000) and Citroën’s new 11 CV spaceship, the DS-19 (price: FF 940,000).
The Peugeot 403 was markedly smaller (8 CV / 1.5 litre) and cheaper (FF 740,000), though it more than matched the Simca (and the Renault) in acceleration and top speed – one reason for its success.
Simca launched a station wagon version of the V8, the Marly, in 1956. It was a new kind of car for the Europeans of the ‘50s: a luxury wagon (25% more expensive than the Versailles) that was factory-made, as opposed to a coachbuilder’s special. Renault soon added a similar car to their Frégate range, as would Citroën.
The Simca V8s did not enjoy as many coachbuilt variants as the previous generation of Vedettes. One reason was the Simca’s unibody, which tends to make coachbuilt jobs more difficult. Another was that many French carrossiers had vanished by the mid-‘50s. Of those that were left, only Henri Chapron attempted a single two-door hardtop coupé (called “Orsay”) in 1956.
The Small V8’s Final Lap (in France)
Big car sales in France took a major plunge after the Suez Crisis: Simca V8s hit an all-time high with 44,836 units sold in 1956 and sank to 17,875 for 1957.
Fortunately, Simca had launched Ariane 4 in 1957, combining the Trianon’s body with the Aronde’s 1.3 litre (7 CV) engine. It was an immediate success and would be built until 1963.
The V8 range was given a make-over for 1958: new monikers, facelifted bodies and dashboards courtesy of Fiat styling director Luigi Rapi, better brakes and larger wheels (the Versailles’ 13-in. wheels and tiny pads were criticized for being too undersized).
The Versailles gave way to the Beaulieu, the Régence became the Chambord and the Trianon briefly survived with the old-style body as the Ariane 8. The wagon’s only change was the new front clip and dash. The Aquilon’s compression ratio was upped yet again, resulting in an extra 4hp to try to offset the new body’s extra 100kg.
A new model, the Présidence, was announced in 1958. This “Broughamized” exclusive saloon, only available in black (a few French bishops ordered theirs with a white roof), came with leather seats and could be ordered with a separation. Its continental kit made its rear 25cm longer and more oddly-proportioned. It cost over 50% more than the Chambord.
The Simca Présidence was selected by the Elysée palace for the creation of a new state parade car, as Citroën refused to attempt a four-door convertible DS. Two of these cars were built by Simca’s prototype workshop in Nanterre in 1959 – without the continental kit and faux wire wheels; the leather interior was made by Chapron.
Meanwhile, something was happening in Detroit in 1958: a recession. The Big Three suddenly craved captive imports to fight off the compacts (Rambler, Volkswagen, Renault and the like). GM had Opel and Vauxhall; Ford had Dagenham and Cologne. Chrysler had nothing, so it acquired Ford’s 15% stake in Simca, plus an additional 10%. By late 1958, Simcas were sold in the US by Chrysler – mostly Arondes, but the Vedette also made for a decent compact. So the V8-60 went back on a farewell tour of the US for a season or two, courtesy of Mopar. It is unclear how many were sold (guesstimate: low hundreds).
Simca bought the long-suffering Talbot-Lago company in December 1958, mostly for its real estate. There were still a few unfinished Talbot America chassis, which were waiting for BMW V8s that never came, along with spare body panels. Simca just stuck a twin-carb (95hp) version of their V8 in the Talbots and put a higher roofline so the windows could be wound down. About five Aquilon-powered Talbots were assembled in 1959 to universal consternation, ending the prestigious marque on a sour and flat note.
By now, the Aquilon was showing signs of exhaustion, at least in terms of sales. The Treaty of Rome was signed in 1957 – soon, tariff barriers erected in the ‘30s would be gradually eroded. The small V8 cars still sold 28,142 units in 1958, thanks to their rejuvenated looks, but Simca was not going to invest in a new V8.
Sales slid inexorably from then on: 15,966 in 1959, 13,914 in 1960 and just 3813 in 1961. Simca pulled the plug at that point and re-focused on its bread-and-butter smaller cars. Time to wave old flattie au revoir – in Europe, at least…
Pequeno V8, Versõe Tropical
Like most automakers, Simca sought to conquer new markets in emerging countries. In the ‘50s, that meant South America. The US Big Three were there to varying degrees, as was Kaiser, which had resurrected in Argentina, and Willys in Brazil. European makers large and small were coming too: Auto-Union, Volkswagen, Renault, Peugeot, Fiat and others were busy setting up joint ventures with local partners to assemble CKD cars or manufacture the whole thing.
Simca was interested in Brazil, whose new government wanted to attract foreign investment and develop the country’s infrastructure. After careful consideration and market research, the V8 cars seemed suited to Brazil’s burgeoning bourgeoisie. With the help of Fiat, Simca drew up plans for building an entire operation from the ground up: erecting a plant, training the workforce, sourcing suppliers, securing financing, building a dealer network… Simca engineer Jacques Pasteur was sent to São Bernardo do Campo (São Paulo) to oversee the project’s technical side in 1958.
The Kubitschek government insisted on a very tight schedule. After an initial batch of CKDs improted from Poissy in 1959, the Simca V8 would become 90% locally-made within two years. This was going to be a challenge, especially since most of the local suppliers never met their deadlines.
Eventually, the Simca Chambord, a very exact replica of the French car, was in dealerships in 1960. By the end of 1961, the cars were almost totally (90%) locally-made and the range now included the Présidence, naff continental kit included.
Jacques Pasteur upped the horsepower to 92hp, soon improved to 95hp on the Chambord and 105hp on the twin-carb Présidence and Rallye Especial, a new model for 1962 featuring peculiar “air scoops” on the hood.
The 1963 range included the Jangada, an updating of the Marly, as well as an all-sychromesh gearbox. But the Aquilon was now pushed to its limits. The only way to squeeze more power would be to increase capacity.
This is exactly what Simca do Brasil did in 1964, launching the V8 Tufão (“hurricane”). The greenhouse was modernized to increase headroom; the car’s rear lights were also redesigned.
Pasteur enlarged the V8 to 2414cc (147.3 cu. in.) and 100hp in the Chambord; the Rallye Especial and Présidence received the twin carb Tufão Super, which was bored to 2505cc (153 cu. in.) and developed 112hp @ 5000 rpm through a compression ratio of 8.5:1. A French transistorized ignition and improved cooling were also part of the V8’s makeover.
The Grand Finale
Let’s wind back the clock from 1965 to 1947 for a minute, as one key aspect of the flathead V8 was (intentionally) omitted from the previous installments of this epic saga: Ardun. The brothers Yura and Zora Arkus-Duntov (of later Covette fame) were subcontracted by Ford to create and manufacture a special OHV hemi head kit for the V8. The idea was to install these in trucks, as their flatheads were the ones suffering most from the chronic overheating issues caused by Ford’s weird “exhaust-through-the-block” design.
Arkus-Duntov (Ar-Dun) conversions also addressed another of the Ford V8’s issues by significantly increasing its horsepower. In the end, few if any trucks received them: they were expensive and allegedly required a bit of expert tinkering to work properly. Most Arduns ended up on hot rods and racers with Ford 3.6 litre V8s. Ardun also designed and made a few kits for the V8-60, some of which were exported to France for the Ford Vedette.
Jacques Pasteur found some Ardun kits in Paris and carefully studied them in the early ‘60s. The plan for Simca do Brasil had been to develop an OHV design (code-named “moteur 326”) for the Aquilon in Poissy, but the costs were deemed too great and Pigozzi killed the project in 1959. It was far cheaper to reverse-engineer the Arduns, creating the ultimate V8-60: the Emi-Sul.
It was worth the effort. The 2.4 litre V8’s power output jumped to 130hp (140hp for the 2.5 litre version), more than twice as powerful as it was at birth. Simca unleashed this beast on the roads of Brazil in May 1966.
The Chambord was starting to look positively passé, with its finned rear and gothic headlights. It had been around for five years in its country of adoption. Simca were not about to do a major redesign – a quickie facelift would have to do.
Mopar Hums The V8’s Swansong
Simca was about to change owners. Chrysler’s 25% stake in Simca was increased to 63% when Fiat agreed to sell most of its shares in 1963. By 1967, Simca was 77% owned by Chrysler.
This meant that Simca do Brazil was now a Mopar subsidiary. Coincidentally, Simca launched its restyled “Esplanada” range at the São Paulo Motor Show in November 1966. Chrysler did an evaluation of the new Simca Esplanada mid-1967 and implemented over 50 changes before slapping a two-year warranty on the car.
The Esplanada was marketed (but not branded) as a Chrysler product in 1968, along with a base trim version, the Regente. A mooted station wagon version never reached production; the 2.5 litre option was deleted, leaving the 2.4 V8 130hp as the last in production.
The Esplanada was then granted quad headlights, giving it a pseudo-AMC appearance. A sporty Esplanada GTX with go-faster stripes and a new floor-mounted four-speed gearbox was launched to complete the range.
The Brasilian Simca V8s were produced until the end of 1969, almost 35 years after it was born in faraway England, of American parents. Chrysler do Brasil would now focus on Dodge Darts.
R.I.P. V8-60 (1935-1969)
The V8-60 was American, French, German, British and Brazilian over the course of its long life. It was de-bored and re-stroked several times, modified and tinkered with in all sorts of ways, culminating in a head transplant.
It was put under the hoods of Fords, Matfords, Simcas, and a few Talbots, Jensens and Crosleys, as well as a number of trucks, racers, specials, motorbikes and tractors. It survived a world war and conquered three continents. It ferried everyone from middle-class Brits to American farmers and French Presidents.
Few 8-cyl. engines have been as versatile as the Ford flathead V8. The V8-60, unloved in the US, was adopted and, fortified by a heady cocktail of gin, armagnac and cachaça, grew to surpass its older, bigger 221 cu. in. brother in both horsepower and in longevity. Old Henry would have been proud.
Related CC topics:
For a more Brazilian take on Simca, read From Flathead To Hemihead, by Rubens.
Read the first part of the V8-60 history (the pre-war years) here.
Read the second part of the V8-60 history (the post-war European Fords) here.
Simca did indeed come to the US via Chrysler in 1958. They had to have sold more than a few hundred of the V8 models, however, as the Vedette (and Ariane 8 starting in 1959) lasted thru the 1961 season.
The fact that these V8 Vedettes and Ariane 8s were sold in the US was news to me, until I read this article. I certainly never saw one, although Arondes were fairly common enough. The numbers must have been very small, as its $2200-2300 price must not have looked very good compared to a much more modern American car.
I can just imagine someone going in to a Chrysler/Simca dealer to look at one and popping the hood: Hmm, that engine looks strangely familiar. Anyone at the time was still very familiar with what a Ford flathead looked like. I wonder how the salesmen explained that.
Finding one of these V8 imports in the US now has to be just about the ultimate unicorn.
It’s been 35 years since I senselessly tossed my almost complete collection of Road & Track magazines from the early ’50’s through 1981, so I can’t personally confirm this, but I’m pretty sure that Simca did import, or at least announce, the V8 Vedette in the US, and R&T featured it. Now whether they sold any is another matter.
That’s what I figured when I put that “low hundreds” estimate. Thinking back on it, that may have been even too generous. Can’t seem to find any info about these Chrysler-imported Vedettes on the web except period ads.
Didn’t know that Simca had such a wide range of models at one point. Got to wonder what was their total production number during those years, did the volume justified the model range?
I detailed the Vedettes’ production numbers in the text. Vedettes were comparatively large for French motorists, but they sold in impressive numbers bearing in mind that until the early ’60s, most French cars were not exported all that much (for ex., 1956 data: total French auto production 827,000 of which 117,000 were exported.)
Total Simca V8 production in France (1955-61) was just over 166,000 (for comparison, the Citroen 15-Six (1938-1940 / 1945-1956): around 47,000 total, or the Renault Fregate (1951-1960: 180,000 units).
Simca also had a big hit on its hands with the Aronde: 1.4m made (1951-1963)
(1956 Aronde production: 133,105 — only counting passenger models, not pick-ups or utility versions).
So in a word yes, Simca was a volume automaker, no doubt about it. They overtook Peugeot as the 3rd largest French carmaker in 1955 and remained there until Peugeot widened their range with a small car in 1965.
What a great (if complicated) story! I had known bits and pieces of it, but had never connected it all into this long arc as you have done so ably.
I want an Emi Sul! Seriously.
I know, right? These things look amazing. But they are very rare now. Seems the resale value back in the day was pretty lousy compared to the scrap value, so many (most?) went to the crusher. Every hot rodder and flathead freak in the US and elsewhere wants one, too.
Apparently worth six figures (in US$) these days. A Tatra 603 or 613 would probably be easier to find and just as V8-hemi-full, in my opinion…
Honestly, just the Emi-Sul V-8 badge, or a decent replica thereof, would be a good wall decoration. That’s a serious set of emblems.
Nas décadas de 1970 e 1980 a maioria dos motores Emi-Sul foi para a sucata devido ao baixo valor residual dos carros Simca, a dificuldade de se encontrar peças de reposição para esses motores e também porque os cabeçotes eram de alumínio. O alumínio, como se sabe, tem bom valor como matéria prima usada. Os carros ruins eram desmanchados e os bons tinham adaptado o motor Chevrolet 151 de quatro cilindros, usado no Brasil pelo Chevrolet Opala.
Beautiful two-part article!
Interesting that the ’58 Vedette was wearing the same side trim as the ’58 Chrysler Saratoga and Windsor. BEFORE Chrysler bought the company. Must have been some courtship before the marriage.
Great read I hope my neighbouring Simca nutter finds his way back here for this,his Ariane four is the twin of the one pictured but with white top, The Esplanada is almost a clone of the mid 60s Nissan Gloria even size wise too. I wouldnt mind one of those Ardun Simcas in my driveway actually.
An incredible read, this series, with its detailed history of the long life and many variations of the Ford flathead V8 and the cars that it powered on three continents and in multiple countries. It is an aspect of this milestone design that I knew almost nothing about before, and I am glad to be educated about it now.
You have also answered a question about French cars that I have had for at least 20 years: what was a Regence? A Regence was named and described in some detail as the emblematic car of a French paratroop colonel in the novel “The Centurions,” and since reading the book two decades ago, I have been bothered by the question of what a Regence was. Now I know! I may be the only person in the world who has asked this question, but now that I have the answer, a CC story appears to be in order.
I remember seeing quite a few of the Beaulieus in Australia (Melbourne) in the late fifties/early sixties. Fascinating that you managed to find an article about Vedettes in the old Motor Manual – I recognized the typeface and layout immediately!
This series has been an invaluable overview of the Simca story, and I’ve really enjoyed the tributaries you’ve included in your narrative. One of the best reads for the year. Much appreciated Monsieur Quatre-Vingt Sept.
Tom Macahill did a test of a V8 Vedette; I haven’t been able to find it.
When I first saw that picture of the Emi Sul I thought it was a 4 OHC conversion from the bumps in the covers. Still a great swan song for the flathead.
Great write up, I had no idea the flathead wound up in so many cars all the way up to 1969. And the Simca story is amazing, learned so much from this.
When you say Ardun heads do not forget Walter Becchia who designed the Talbot T150 engine, wherefrom Duntov got the idea for his rig. Also be kind enough to mention Sidney Allard who modified and produced a better version of those heads. Perhaps there was also a small contribution from Steyr and their military air-cooled V8 with hemispherical set-up; Allard made intensive use of this motor. And finally there is Pierre Ferry who bought an inventory from the British and eventually provided the Brazilian outfit with the pattern for the Emi-Sul.
And let’s not forget Gottlieb Daimler, without whom none of this would have been possible in the 1st place…
Just joshing — thank you for adding to the historical background, that’s what the comments are for. My focus was less on Ardun heads than on the V8-60, so I tried to keep things short and sweet…
P. Ferry is indeed where Jacques Pasteur found the rare V8-60 Arduns according to my French sources. Whether these were originally shipped to England (and why that would be the case, as only France was still making the V8-50 by that point) remains to be clarified.
You mention Allard, but AFAIK they only used the 3.6 V8 Arduns. As I understand it, these and the V8-60 heads are quite different.
Could you elaborate on the Steyr connecton? Any relation to the Tatra 603’s air-cooled 2.5 litre hemi V8, perchance?
Nicholas Otto, then… Seriously, the Ferry components supposedly came from the Allard works in England and I believe they produced both the large and the small heads; how many of each were sold to the French firm remains unknown. But there are reports of 1st generation Ford Vedettes equipped with that accessory.
About Steyr: the Austrian company developed and assembled an air-cooled V8 with hemi-heads for military duty during WWII. It was well reputed for such heavy duty application. Allard used one of these to power his hill-climb and sprint racer in the late ’40s. Since the British reworked Duntov’ s creation for better durability, he may have borrowed some ideas from Steyr.
I do not know whether there is any connection between the Styrian factory and Tatra in Czechoslovakia except that Hans Ledwinka worked for both concerns. As an expert about Tatra, you might be able to follow that clue.
Well, neither of those, actually, nor Ledwinka either. Augustus Herring, and American, conceived of the first hemispherical combustion chamber in 1896. I have been shown the proof of that, and plan to write that up this winter, as a follow-up to my article on the first hemi-head automobile, the 1903 Premier:
From the premier, the hemi head spread quickly, thanks to Ledwinka in Europe. And then it came back to the US via the 1912 Peugeot racer, which of course was the inspiration for the Millers and Offys.
And Hall-Scott in California was building OHC hemis since 1915, for aviation engines. Hall’s design was the basis for the WW1 Liberty engine, with the same OHC hemi head. And after the war, Hall Scott built large numbers of OHC hemi engines for trucks, buses, etc..
The hemi has a long and varied history. To suggest that the Ardun heads were something new or different is not true. They just adapted a tried and true concept to the Ford V8. By that time, hemis were old hat. Thousands of American trucks and buses were running all over the place with their hemi Hall-Scott engines. And there were numerous hemi aftermarket heads available for both the Model T and the Model A. The Model T engine, with a DOHC hemi head, became the most popular track engine for those that couldn’t afford a Miller or Offy, and ohv versions were popular on the street too. I could go on…
Well, I was not referring to hemispherical combustion chambers but rather to the special valve actuating mechanism. A side or central mounted camshaft that commands the valve train through long, inclined rods and rocker arms. Just an overhead valve engine, not OHC. And I do not believe Becchia and Talbot were the first to use such a setup, only that they provided Duntov with the idea. Remember that Zora made two attempts at Indianapolis with the French car. By the way, Mopar engineers claim that they came up with the same fixture independently of any previous application.
Well done! I had no idea the small V-8 survived so long in Brazil or that it had acquired OHV heads.
Here is a minor question: Under what system were the Simca versions of the engine rated? Are the 130 and 140 hp ratings U.S.-style SAE gross figures or are they DIN? (Getting 130 hp DIN from 2.4 liters would a pretty healthy figure for the early ’60s — the 2.5-liter Daimler had 140 hp, but I think that was a gross figure.)
It’s my guess that these would be SAE, but I cannot be sure. The DIN rating was starting to be used in France in the 60s, but it was kind of vague until about 1970. Given that this is a Brazilian engine, perhaps SAE gross figures were quoted. Or SAE net figures (which were used in France by several automakers.)
A minor but pesky issue. The difference between bhp SAE gross and PS DIN might amount to 20-ish hp, to the frustration of the historian trying to put these things in perspective. On some things, anyway, standardization is good!
The French military were still using the 255 cube V8 in 82 so I’m told, Henry’s old flathead had an incredible run.
Great series. Well done. Your work is much appreciated.
An excellent read on the long history of a significant engine–thank you! Quite enlightening.
Also, I’d like one of those Esplanada GTX models for pure “bizarre mash-up” value. A hemi-head Ford V8 engine, with an AMC lookalike body with Plymouth GTX emblems, produced in Brazil. If only I could wedge GM or Mercedes in there somewhere…
Great write-up, thank you! That Emi-Sul is fantastic – is #8 a transistorized ignition?
I especially liked your “made in homeopathic quantities” description 🙂
Were these cars any faster than the Citroen DS?. Most 60s French bank robbers used them.
Vedettes were heavy and about as aerodynamic as a brick wall. The DS was definitely faster — but the early models weren’t reputed to be very reliable.
Moot point anyways when you consider what the French police were usually driving in those days…
I read you with a great pleasure.
Please do not mix up: SOciete MECAnique de la Seine, a subsidiary of SIMCA; and Societe d’Outillage Mecanique et d’Usinage d’Artillerie (SOMUA), branche automobile de SCHNEIDER.
An excellent read, and so much news to me an long-time fan of the V-8-60. I have owned several spare engines and re-installed the best one in a derelict ’37 Coupe’. It took me two years (pre-internet) to complete the install trying to find the (smaller) universal joint to get the car running/driving. The car sat dormant for those years with the engine just “resting in place”, being started and run up several times a month just to hear it run. Sweet! One of the engines I had had been a race motor with a Winfield cam and was ported and relieved but was unrunable having severe damage to the cylinder walls and already bored out .060″. I imagine it’s last minutes in the fray, giving it’s last gasp…Those days are gone, so are the engines and the car. I had known about these since the 50’s and even seen what I swore was one in a Simca at the local gas station, always wondered about whether it was a Ford copy or what. About that same time, I was involved in photographing the Indy 500 as a “stringer”, but had been on hand for some of the last runs of the famous Novi V8 of Andy Granatelli. Awesome chest beating sound from the exhaust, heard all ’round the track, inescapable. Loud. Fast. Fragile. Later, a little research on the Novi revealed a striking resemblance to the little 137’s, even sharing three main bearings and at 136 Cu.In. with a supercharger and DOHC some reportedly were putting out 700 HP. No wonder they broke! Read up on the Novi, I wonder who’s idea they “stole”?