About two weeks ago, I suddenly started running into these white and blue Smarts all over town, one every couple of blocks. What’s that all about? Oh; it’s CAR2GO, another car sharing service, this one owned by Daimler AG. Unlike the other ones, these cars are just a block or two away from many folks who live in the older, close-in and downtown neighborhoods. The exact same neighborhoods that are chock full of CCs, because these folks don’t drive to work and such; they just need a car for the occasional errand or so, for which a CC is perfect. or a CAR2GO. Will these Smarts replace the need to keep an old 1970s Corolla wagon around?
I decided to cover some of the blocks between us and downtown, and shoot some of the 50 Smarts that have blown in like leaves from a tree. And I turned it into a bit of a challenge: to shoot a genuine CC with every Smart I found. So far, that was easy. And I suppose when the troublesome 4.1 finally gives in that Caddy, it might be handy to just reach for the CAR2GO.
After signing up as a member for some $35, one finds the nearest car via a phone app, web site, phone, or just looks for one. Holding up the membership card to the reader on the dash activates the car. Rates are $.41/minute, $14.99/hr, $84.99/day; depending how long one keeps it. There’s also a $.45/mile charge after the first 150 miles of a trip. I suppose it might be handy when the Jetta Mk2 won’t start.
It won’t be as roomy as the old Previa. Or as soft-riding and quiet as the Camry.
But you won’t have to worry about parking tickets, as the city of Eugene has exempted CAR2Go from any parking violations. So just drop it off anywhere, even in front of the church, as long as it’s within the service area. Mobility, without the headaches. And yes, there’s a CC back there across the street.
Maybe CAR2GO is strategically parking these cars near old cars that they think might likely break down shortly?
This last CAR2GO was parked without any CCs in sight. No problem, just wait a sec and there’s bound to be one coming down 13th Avenue. Yup.
Oh shoot; I missed an air-cooled Beetle. But there’s always more. I could stand on any corner in Eugene and just keep firing away. Or hop in a CAR2GO and find more CCs. Come to think of it, there’s been times we’ve gone on such long urban hikes we’d wished for a ride home. This opens up new possibilities. Is there enough room in the back for the dog?
At least, people renting those Smarts aren’t buying them! A friend of mine had a 2006 Diesel model which kept breaking and costing a lot of money to repair. At 175,000 kms it was very unreliable with a transmission that would sometimes stay in neutral while driving and even with thousands invested in maintenance the small 3 cyl started to knock… That was the end! Still the car was a fully loaded convertible and he sold it for parts. Then he had enough money from the dead Smart to buy a high mileage 2001 Accord coupe in good shape. I think that car did cost less than the intercooler replacement on the Smart!
I don’t know if the new generation of Smarts are better but I wouldn’t take a chance buying one!
Sorry for the lack of punctuation in my previous comment… I hate writing on a phone and I can’t figure how to edit comments with it!
I bought the 5th one to hit North Carolina in 2008 and it still serves as my daily driver. It’s been as far north as NJ and as far south as Macon, GA. 95,000 miles without any service other than routine, a transmission software upgrade in the first month and a recent head scratching episode where it would go into gear or start. Left it overnight and it started right up.
Son’t know why the diesel would be that much less reliable.
That’s a good question. I must admit I use Uber a lot and it has changed my car usage for certain things. But it hasn’t replaced my regular car even though I don’t have to drive much for work. I saw an article two weeks ago that in LA dumping an old car and replacing it with Uber is much more expensive, even for an infrequent driver. Good old cars and gas are just so cheap right now.
I suppose the Smart thing could replace CCs that are seldom driven. Won’t help you get back from a party after a night of adult beverages and I can’t see these being so good for one way trips like picking up an old car at a mechanic’s far away. Which I’ve had to do many times over the years!
If this Smartcar thing works I can see someone doing it with a fleet of used Priuses for even lower cost or just a guy on his own with a few CC. Uber is slick in many ways, like allowing the use of not new cars to keep prices way lower than a taxi.
Car2Go is definitely meant as a one-way rental, because you
pick it up on the street and leave it where-ever you are on the street.
So you could use it to get from your house to your mechanic.
It’s been in operation in DC for over 4 years (maybe more already?).
but the problem here is that you can’t leave the cars outside the District of Columbia — and I’m 1-1/2 miles outside that limit.
The cost of renting one for the 30 min commute to work, and esp. the convenience of being able to drive and drop the car close to my office beats driving and paying for parking, and for two of us is almost the same as the metro.
Then again, I’ve not used the service and always hated those those Stupid cars, so I might prefer to switch back to
the Metro should I actually try driving one. Why doesn’t M-B bring the A-100 series here rather than the useless ‘Smart’ cars?
I’m planning to start a similar sharing service out here in the Middle West. We’ll only have diesel, 4WD, dual cab, longbed ¾-ton pickup trucks…
AKA: Texas Cadillacs or Cowboy Limo’s as I like to call them. I’m sure the MidWest has other names for such trucks.
I’m amazed: If CAR2GO is exempt from parking violations, then it makes me wonder what such laws are for in the 1st place. For it’s not as if Smart cars take up no curb space, or are Scion iQs OK as well? Exemptions from laws should be only for very compelling reasons, & convenience for certain private citizens surely isn’t one of them.
And I can’t believe it’s OK to leave them in front of fire hydrants.
Its a SmartCar, if it gets left in front of a Hydrant the fireman can just move it out of the way.
That reminds me about that Mentos commercial where a lady’s tiny car is blocked in and she gets a bunch of guys to lift it out
When I finished high school, as part of the usual celebrations we lifted a teacher’s Mini (about a ’66), carried it indoors and headed for the staircase. We got it as far as the first landing about 2 metres up, but couldn’t get it around the corner, so we left it there.
Yeah! Move it with a blast from the fire hose!
It’s more fun to smash the windows and run the hose through the car! Seriously though, every second counts in an incipient fire and I would be amazed if the city exempts them from fire zones and hydrants.
I would assume (perhaps wrongly) that it is exempted from such things as 2hour parking zones. I would guess than handicapped zones, hydrants, street sweep prohibitions still are in effect. Although I wonder how that works if you are in fact permanently or temporarily handicapped and equipped with a placard – you should be able to park close but wouldn’t be leaving the placard in the car.
In DC, car2go pays for a $1000 special yearly parking permit which allows residential parking. You are restricted from rush hour parking. And things like fire hydrants.
There is enough room for a small dog, although it is not cool to put a dog in a shared car. People do it and it stinks. The trick is figuring out the rear hatch mechanism. Also the engine is back there and can get warm.
I’m moderately fond of the smart cars now. The steering is good. The engine, is well, small. The first generation transmission was horrible, the newer ones a bit better. If you use the manual shift mode it is ok. Ride quality is like nothing you have ever seen.
It is also the only french car you can get in America.
Not quite true. New Yaris’ are French: http://www.hybridcars.com/toyotas-yaris-now-coming-from-france/
Evidently that doesn’t mean French stylists had any input; it’s still ugly.
I wish car designers would get over this wedge fad; the TR-7 should’ve been enough warning.
I would still rather have the yellow Cadillac, actually any of the older cars before a Smart.
I got to drive a Smart cabrio a couple of months ago, it was the first one I ever drove and I wanted to see what one was like, its a fairly unsatisfactory driving experience, yes, it does have a good turning radius, and its not as slow as I thought that it would be, at least to like 50 or so, but I imagine that there’s not much left after that, I think the top speed is only 80-90mph? Seeing the grille of the truck right behind you at a light right over your shoulder is a little disturbing too. The semi- automatic transmission was like driving a manual car with someone who was just learning to drive a manual car.
I know that the Smart Car2Go is only a temporary car, and I guess for that sort of use it works, of course if you’re only going to carry no more than 2 people, and hardly any luggage.
Which would be worse? Driving a smart car across the country or an old Beetle?
The old Beetle, the Smart is dinky, but it can more or less keep up with modern traffic, though neither would be pleasant.
If they got the 100 mpg they look like they should get, I’ll take one. Since they don’t even get half that, I’ll take the clean looking white A2 Jetta across the street from the third picture down Smart.
Remember the Honda CRX HF? Makes an interesting comparison.
I thought gas is included in the hourly rate? Not sure who fills it or how that works but I didn’t think you needed to pump your own gas to refill what you used.
Thats the thing about these, they don’t get good enough mileage and/or are not cheap enough to reflect what most people think of them in their minds. If it got the mpg that it did, but it was say $6995, ok I could see that, perhaps as a bridge between a scooter and a regular car, or if it got something like 80mpg, then yeah, but all it really has to boast about is that its doesn’t take up much space, which in most of 400 acre Wal-mart parking lot America, isn’t really that big of a deal.
Seriously–and I say this as a lifelong lover, driver, and owner of small cars–who is the Smart car for? As a Brooklynite who only needs a car on the weekends and for the occasional road trip, I ended up buying a 2009 Accent, which gets the same mileage, fits all kinds of stuff, drives like a real car with a real manual transmission, feels good on the highway, and is dependable and cheap to maintain. Why would I want to spend the same amount of money, or more, on this enclosed roller skate that drives like a bumper car and gets much worse mileage than it should? Would I even want to take this thing on a road trip? On the New Jersey Turnpike? Granted, the Accent has zero cool factor, but I’m too old to care about that.
For CAR2GO users? Seriously, for this kind of service, it makes sense. The Smart was designed for Europe’s crowded cities, where parking is a serious issue. They’re pretty popular there as an urban runabout for that reason. In the US, it clearly has limited appeal and potential.
I don’t see it. I used Zipcar several times here in NYC a few years back, and you could get a real car–something along the lines of a Focus, Escape, or CRV–for what Car2Go is charging now for a Smart. And those cars could fit four people for a day trip out into the country, or to go shop at IKEA, or to to buy a bunch of crap from CostCo, or for taking extra stuff to and from a storage unit, which is mostly what city dwellers (at least around here; maybe Oregon is different) use them for.
I really can’t see the point of the rental service. I’m one of those wrinkly types who MIGHT need a car for some occasional major errand … but for the last 20 years that need has remained theoretical. The city bus and my feet have covered all my transportation needs.
I did keep a car around for a while just in case, but I was only driving it often enough to keep it gassed up and running, not for any actual purpose. After realizing the absurdity of driving the car solely to gas up the car, I junked it.
If you lived in a city with inadequate bus and taxi service, the rental Smart could make sense as a substitute for taxis.
These have been around in Vancouver for a long time and I don’t think they’ve made a difference in CC’s except for maybe bottom feeders like clapped out Corollas or Sentras. The truly interesting cars are usually kept by those who want something that makes a bit of a statement.
We also have Zipcar and Modo operating here. Modo has the most varied selection of vehicles from Minis to pickups to minivans, makes a lot more sense as you can pick the vehicle nedded based on your requirements.The advantage Car2go has is you can leave them anywhere in the areas of the city that are covered. The other two you have to leave in designated spots.
And you can leave them in resident permit only zones, like the one in front of my house sans permit.
I have never driven a smart so I can’t honestly comment on it’s drive ability….instead I’ll take the word of pretty much EVERY car magazine on the planet, it’s dismal. For what it costs, I’m not sure that the cars2go is a good idea, but if the car was a Prius or Yaris or Versa, I might be more inclined.
BTW, Renault and M-B have a new smart/Twingo that is about to go on sale in Europe. The smart is marginally improved, and Europe gets a “real” manual transmission. But the mechanically dis-similar Twingo is being touted as the (slightly) better car.
50 Smart’s in one town?? Like Howard said above, with the third generation about to be launched, Daimler AG have to shift the remaining old stock somehow!
I had to think long and hard (pun forthcoming) about what the point of this is. I have three cars myself so the concept of a car-less lifestyle is as alien to me as, say, voluntarily giving up one’s man parts.
Who is this intended for? If you don’t have a car, then I can see you might occasionally want to rent a car for grocery store and other errands – – – but you couldn’t really put groceries in this, and then really, a weekend errand cycle would take about two-three hours so then you’d be better off renting a Real Car.
Someone might occasionally want to visit a friend who lives outside of walking range, but usually for me that takes about two-three hours so you’d be better off renting . . a Real Car.
What could you complete in about an hour, with no baggage, and no other person in the car? AN ASSIGNATION. (I did not mean assassination, although that’s also a possibility.)
YES. BUSINESS/POLITICAL TYPES CAN PICK ONE OF THESE UP, GO GET THEIR “BUSINESS” DONE, AND THEN LEAVE ANONYMOUSLY. No one will ever believe some prominent local figure was driving one of these, let alone visiting a cash lady in it. And this is a European idea, and y’all know how them Europeans are. . .
I don’t know why these things still exist. To me, when I see this, it strikes me as owned by someone who spends their evenings Facebook stalking their exes while eating Lean Cuisines and drinking chardonnay out of the box while inventing complex personality traits for 11 cats.
Do you live in a suburb or exurb? In the city it makes sense for many people if their work commute is done by transit or by bike. It gives you access to a car if you want to do a Costco run, or if two of you want to visit somewhere not well served by transit.
People don’t trash them as I believe you become a member and provide some ciredit card info.Car2go has mobile sqauds of employees that check and lightly clean the cars at curbside.
In addition to urban areas, they make sense for college students – lots of universities have car-sharing cars on or near campus. Keeping a car on campus can be expensive, and is often prohibited for freshmen. If you live on campus/near and only need a car occasionally to stock up on ramen and natty light, car sharing might make sense.
ZipCar has already beaten them to a lot of Campuses, so that limits the appeal for on-campus students when it’s easier to fit a load of shopping into one of those. However, for off-campus students who still don’t have a car (and there are a lot of those) these would make perfect sense. In fact, with quite a number of younger people choosing voluntarily to live without a car, they just might be the target market for something like this.
A Smart is worthless for a run to Costco, all you can carry is one pack of toilet paper, and that is if you go by yourself.
Forgive me for my naïveté , but what keeps a customer from totally thrashing the vehicle?
Anytime I rent a car, they go over it with a fine toothed comb to look for damage.
Before driving off, one notes any issues with the car’s condition exterior and interior, all done via the car’s electronics.
I’m guessing they would bill the last one that drove said car.
Is there anything to stop another member from hopping in and driving off with it while you’re in the store shopping?
I can kind of see the point of these, but it’s pretty limited.
Yes. If you keep paying for it, the little screen on the windshield says it’s “not available”.
I was thinking the same thing,
I could see someone coming out with a $85.00 bag of organic groceries with 4 things in it and staring at the spot where their Car2Go Smart was in bewilderment.
” a $85.00 bag of organic groceries with 4 things in it ”
BWAHAHAHAAAA!!!!! Bullseye…..meet dart!
“I suppose it might be handy when the Jetta Mk2 won’t start.”
You may have hit on possibly the best reason for the existence of Car2Go.
Smart is mechanically reliable. But as it is a micro-mercedes the price is too high. A Swift-Metro-Firefly offers more room, their smallest 3 cylinder engines are enough fuel efficient and at least enough space for 4 adult persons. Smart is only for 2 and has ugly design.
And an old Swift or Metro will fold up into a nice tiny piece of origami in a freeway crash. For as tiny as the Smart is, I’ve heard the frame is astonishingly strong so they’re not deathtraps at higher speeds.
I still wouldn’t want to own one, and I’m not saying I wouldn’t drive a small old car in the city as there are many benefits, but it’s a worthwhile concern if you do a lot of highway driving.
Agree… Both of them mostly for urban use only.
Is it just me, or do the rental rates for these seem astonishingly high? I briefly looked into using a Car2Go (or something similar) when I saw them available near some Washington DC Metro stations. Taking the train back to Reagan National and getting a regular rental, taking a cab, or taking the train all made much more sense. At least the cars in DC were bigger than a Smart – possibly the most incorrectly named car in history.
Like others have said, the insides of these would seem to be suspect. Clean inside would be analogous to a typical cab, city bus, or subway system. There may not be Burger King wrappers on the floors of any of these, but the general layer of grime, slightly off odors, and suspect stains should create the usual yuck factor of public transportation. My personal favorite turn-off on the Metro was obvious sweat on the seat when people would stand up.
Smart cars are often used as mobile billbords. The problem is, it really is too small. As in too short to seat more than two adults. And then of course there’s the complete lack of luggage space. The Toyota iQ has exactly the same problems, and it has been discontinued.
Instead the somewhat bigger (longer) A-segment hatchbacks have become very popular in recent years, and not only for city-use. Cheap, fuel efficient, practical, they can seat four adults and at least these cars have some decent luggage space.
Just a few examples:
Toyota Aygo, Citroën C1, Peugeot 108, Renault Twingo, Volkswagen Up, Seat Mii, Skoda Citigo, Ford Ka, Opel Adam, Kia Picanto, Hyundai i10, Suzuki Alto and Nissan Pixo.
Here’s the Peugeot 108. Note that technically this is exactly the same car as the Toyota Aygo and Citroën C1.
The only A-segment car that sells in real numbers in the US is the Chevy Spark, which is the only one with four passenger doors and four real seats.
We had that one too, but as you may know the Chevrolet brand has been discontinued in Europe. That is, the Korean ones.
Of course we love Chevys. But a V8 is absolutely required, otherwise: no thanks !
The breed the police once had, for example.
(Photo: Stargazer, AmerikaanseAutoPagina.com)
What other options are even out there besides the Smart? Is the Mitsubishi Mirage considered A-segment? Most manufacturers don’t bother with them here–not one car from Johannes’s list is even available in the US.
The Opel Adam could be sold as some sort of City-Buick. Really, it does not have the el-cheapo feeling some others have. Very well done, inside and out. Therefore it also costs more than most other A-segment cars. About the name: Adam Opel was the founder of the Opel factory.
Here in the UK its still called the Adam, but as a Vauxhall. Given that Opel has not had a presence in the UK for over 25 years, the name does not make much sense to 99% of people.
It should have been called the Vauxhall Junior. However the marketing BS means giving it a human name gives it a ‘life’and therefore ‘character’.
I like the car.
The interior of the Opel. The choice of color combinations is almost endless.
In the USA there is the following that compete with the Smart:
I drove a Fiat 500 for a few weeks while the my Fiesta was in the shop back in January 2014 and it was a nice driving car. It was pretty roomy for 2 passengers(the back is better off used as extra space for groceries or suitcases.) I had a lot of foot room in the driver’s seat (and I am 6-1)
I really don’t see how the Smart car sells in Europe as there so much better A segment cars offered and Smart seems to be priced at the top of the group.
In the USA Smart cars are pointless when there are better vehicles offered. You can step up to a Honda Fit or Ford Fiesta or Kia Rio to name a few and all of these cars have a small enough foot print for cities.
Piece of junk!
I’ve only driven a Smart car once, and found the auto/manual transmission very distracting. I guess you’d get used to it, and that these make much more sense in the market area they were designed for.
I think this concept is great as my eco-warrior type friends used to drive CC quality beaters, but they were utterly useless at keeping an old car running. Owning two new cars is more appropriate to their abilities, but lacks eco credibility so one new car and a carshare could be the way to go!
those things always look like they escaped from Sleeper by Woody Allen… transportation pods for the peons. 🙂
Definitely not the Orgasmatron!!
It seems many are missing the point of Smarts used by Car2go. It’s a distinctive design, so its about branding as much as fuel. Also its easier to pick it out on the street when you’re borrowing one.
I remain mystified by people who complain about fuel mileage with these things. Last time I checked (about a year ago) is was still the highest-mileage non-hybrid on the market. City mileage. The one that’s relevant to a city car.
Complaints about highway top speed are equally meaningless. It only goes 80mph? And? It’s not designed for highway trips.
It’s an urban runabout intended to take one or two people a distance too far to walk, and fit into parking spaces where nothing else will. Complaints about it failing to fill other roles are irrelevant. You may as well complain about a Mustang being bad at hauling lumber.
Well, that and the fact that car2go is owned by Daimler 🙂 What else would they use? S Class?
IIRC, this service was started in Europe, and by Nicky Lauda no less, but Daimler bought them out. It was already starting when I was there in 1999, but mainly at train stations and such.
Last time I checked, the smart WAS NOT that economical a car, especially considering it’s size and engine size. I believe there are several bigger cars with bigger engines that are better on gas.
The European market gets a diesel-powered smart that is supposed to be very economical.
I don’t think there is all that much wrong with the idea of car-sharing, I think a smart is the wrong car BECAUSE of it’s size. Either “change” the car or lower the price.
Seems like a “taxi” for folks annoyed by professional drivers and/or ride sharing with other passengers.
Yep, Car2go functions pretty much as a self-drive taxi service. It allows one-way trips, as compared to other car-share services that require the car to be returned to Point A rather than left at some other location.
Here in Vancouver, Modo provides a broad cross section of vehicle types so you can use what you need that day, but you have to return it to its home spot. They don’t consider Car2go as a direct competitor, and have lots of members who use both services depending on whether they need a one-way or round trip vehicle that day.
Name two non-hybrid ICE cars available now which get better city mileage than the
In NY, just about every Smart you saw was a “rolling billboard” advertising something or another. There was one for an optometrist that had plastic eyeglasses over the headlights,a pink Mary Kay cosmetics one, one for a “threading salon” with plastic eyebrows, and one for a chimney cleaning service with a business card holder on the upper rear quarter. Last,but certainly not least was the “Hello Kitty” one with -guess what? graphics all over the car.It was owned by two Asian sisters who wanted to make a statement without words. Think they suceeded? At least a Smart can be economical. It can save you the cost of a burial. They`ll just bury you in your car if it doesn`t survive the head on or roll over.
As I write this, I’m looking out the window at three Car2Go’s. They are a big hit in my neighbourhood. If you could see where I live, you’d know why. It is congested and there is first class transit readily available.
We even use it. A few months back, my wife’s P.O.S Taurus needed a new engine at 96,000 km (gotta love American “quality”)so it was junked. She rides the train everywhere, but for shopping trips, she takes a Car2Go. It’s cheap and convenient and she doesn’t care if the Smart doesn’t have 400 hp. It costs $0.41 a minute, and you aren’t billed when you aren’t driving. To and from costco from my place costs $10, including gas and insurance. It’s a screaming deal.
I wonder if the license plates are sequentially numbered on these cars? The examples shown have ### HDE.
Heres a thought: Rather than cater to the non-car loving crowd who will only condescend to use wheels when absolutely forced to….
How about a similar service that has a fleet of econoboxes, sedans, and minivans? Rather than for the occasional sporadic trip, orient the service towards frequent users who have a ride they actually WANT to own, yet is impractical for the grunt work. If you have a Viper, Wrangler, classic muscle car, sports car, gas guzzling jacked up 4×4, etc then the smart move SEEMS to be to keep it under lock and key and buy a cheap beater to commute in, or expose to the roadsalt. But then, you have to actually BUY it. Own it, maintain it, park it, insure it, etc…its a pain in the ass you don’t need if its just there to do the scut jobs. Use it, abuse it, park it in sketchy areas then when you have a date…kick it to the curb and voila! Somebody else’s problem. Then take the special lady friend on a white knuckle ride in your Roadrunner.
A shared minivan service for people who are forced to use them to shuttle kids around on a regular basis yet don’t actually want the damn eyesore parked in their driveway? Buy the Challenger, pay for the use of the mom taxi only when absolutely forced to.
This already exists in Vancouver. We have Zip Car and Modo, which rent many different models. Want to rent an exotic? Well, that’s available, too.
Car2Go is by far the most popular.
I did not know you had Car2Go in the US, I thought it was a Europe only scheme. Vienna is full of these things but Eugene? Wonders will never cease.
In my neck of the woods (Grand Rapids, Michigan USA), we don’t have a car sharing service (yet), and Uber is just getting established. As far as the Smart cars, I agree with Paul, that they are tailor-made for this kind of duty. I’ve only even sat in one, not even driven it. It fit me, but it was small and I like small cars. The interior was only OK and that’s coming from a guy who’s owned Yugos.
Smart makes two models, the two door model, ForTwo that we get in North America, and the ForFour, the four door model, which is EU only (I think). I’ve often wondered why they went with the two door only version here in North America. The ForFour is not much larger than the two door, and would eliminate all of those remarks about buying a “real” car. OTOH, I suppose that it would put it in direct contention with all of the Chevy Sparks of the world and maybe the value proposition for the ForFour doesn’t hold up as well against them?
I don’t imagine that these things will replace any CCs anytime soon. The vast majority of us like our cars far too much to relinquish them without a fight. However, my kids’ generation (Millenials) might be more amenable to the idea. But, try and take away their iPhone… Just try it… 😉
These are sometimes the butt of jokes here in Portland where some are a bit more rough around the edges than others. Also have seen them hauling cargo on the roof or having cargo sticking out the rear window. I find it really annoying that Portland has hashmarks on the pavement telling you which 20 foot spot to fit into since Smarts and many cars are not that long. However, I have accidentally parked in the same spot as a Smart once or twice.
How do I get the stupid cartogo out of my parking spot? Some idiot parked two of the cars in front of my house, but I park in front of my house. Now I find out they can’t be ticketed.