Something has been troubling me about my slow-rolling car search. Although I had narrowed it down to the lovely A5 and GS350, each has a distinct flaw, one that gnaws. A gnaw-flaw, if you will. When your paid off Camry still shines up nice and probably won’t take much to go another 93,000 cheap and easy miles, you want to feel like you are getting your money’s worth on the upgrade. This can either mean spending more on a have-it-all sport/luxury sled, or spending less on a more mainstream vehicle that punches up. I’m disinclined towards the former, but the latter? I’m not sure I’ve explored that one. As our Camry clomped and pounded on its “sport tuned” suspension down the shattered asphalt cobble of our embarrassing road grid, I thought to myself: do I really need a sports sedan in this environment? Does it really require an Audi to provide a nicer overall experience than an old Camry? Is there not a middle way?
Indeed there is. It’s called the premium front wheel drive sedan, a space now inhabited almost solely by the Lexus ES and its recently canceled platform mate the Toyota Avalon. I’ve been avoiding this option, feeling another front wheel drive sedan wouldn’t be much of an upgrade. Yet, an Avalon I couldn’t ignore showed up this week. Yep, it’s another FWD Toyota sedan in XSE trim. Some of you may be rolling your eyes at this point, because the Camry I’m looking to replace is…a FWD Toyota sedan in XSE trim. What gives, dummy? Well, Toyota is getting much better at tuning suspensions and this final Avalon was fairly impressive if multiple reviews are to be believed. It’s cavernous inside, it has the same V6 as the GS350 and very similar acceleration times but uses 25% less fuel, all while handling more than a bit like an Audi according to Motor Trend. Do we believe that last one? Maybe. The A5 was very competent but not stunning through the helm. Shouldn’t be impossible to approximate.
The XSE is a lower-mid trim in the lineup, notable for its firmer suspension tune and aesthetic flourishes. It sits above the base XLE with its softer suspension and below the more expensive Limited (also a softie) and Touring, which has an adaptive variable suspension. The XSE has spiffy synthetic suede seat inserts, stupid quad exhaust tips, a blacked out grill, and rubber band tires. It’s trying so hard to be sporty and young! Yet, it’s huge inside, quiet, mostly refined, and will last a bazillion years like a Camry or ES. It’s trying so hard to be mature and responsible! Here on the used market, it is priced comparably to the A5 and below a GS350 of similar miles. You’re gaining reliability and cabin space relative to the Audi and lower miles and better fuel economy versus the Lexus.
Upon test driving the car, I decided that Motor Trend wasn’t too far off and that this Avalon is a curious agglomeration of incongruities, good and bad. This generation was tasked with providing a premium sedan experience without cannibalizing upper-trim Camry and lower-trim Lexus ES sales, all while drawing in younger buyers without alienating the mature clientele that put the Avalon on the map. Contradictory? You bet! And this XSE trim is perhaps the most contradictory of them all outside the rare bizarro TRD.
This oscillation in purpose and execution exists from the moment you approach the car to the moment you park it and walk away. The Avalon has presence. The profile is long, low, and linear, with a proudly extended greenhouse and real windows behind the C pillar. It does not look like a “grandpa car”, and that continues with the cabin. Prominent areas of the interior are meant to persuade buyers that this a true near-luxury product: the seating surfaces, the thick stitched padding of the center console that envelops the cup holders and extends past the shifter, the plush door armrests with their graceful chromed accent, the striking upward swoop of the center stack and its clean, thin trim. Hard plastic panels are afforded minimal real estate. The engine idles silently. The climate fan whispers even at full speed. It is inarguably nice in here on the whole.
Nicer console than the BMW or Audi. Padded materials continue forward of the shifter, onto the sliding lid of the storage bin.
But then you start to notice things. Things not present in the A5 and GS350. Sloppy things. The interior door handles are straight from the Corolla. They are hollow featherweight plastic and release the door with no positive effort or precision. The rotating lock beside them has a cheap sheen mismatched to the surrounding panel. It’s not integrated very well into the door: the back of the handle juts out and looks unfinished. It’s a shameful and cheap-feeling setup that you’ll interact with every time you drive. The doors shut with a flimsy sound at all but the lightest of touches. The optional JBL tweeters are tacked onto the A-pillars. The mid-dash trim strip running across the cabin is supposedly aluminum but feels plasticky and has a woven carbon-fiber look printed on top. The edge of the printed surface is visible where the trim meets the door panel–leaving a gap of unfinished grey in a highly visible location. Finally, the corporate steering wheel that feels premium in a Corolla has no business upstream of the Camry; the leather rim is fine but the hub should be a higher quality plastic at this price. Limited models add impressive crosshatch stitching on the door panels and seats and wood on the dash strip, but you’re still pulling on Corolla door handles and looking at a shiny Corolla steering wheel hub. Toyota had to keep some clear air between the Avalon and Lexus ES somehow.
Corolla (left) and Avalon (middle). Note the angular back edge of the door handle. Looks out of place, right? I suspect it was designed for the Camry’s chrome spear (right), which it meets up with nicely. This is an example of bad parts bin sharing.
The contradictions continue in the driving experience. Let’s start with the good: the suspension tune is way better than I thought it would be. This car rides on thin 40-series tires on giant wheels, yet bumps and potholes are handled with a quiet bump-ump and a short, clean suspension stroke that can be felt without the jolts, squeaks, squawks or rattles that make a car feel unpleasant and junky. This car does not float. It responds to the road surface and you can feel the irregularities and cruddy pavement, but all the harsh edges have been nicely filed off. Toyota engineered an engaging yet comfortable ride & handling balance. Handling competence in our Camry XSE was accomplished by simply making the suspension rather stiff for a family car, and there are railroad crossings and rotted pavement that make me flinch in anticipation of the sharp hit and the resulting interior noise. Not in this Avalon. Moreover, the Avalon corners more confidently, with less roll, better body control, and a slightly sharper steering response. It turns in cleanly and maintains a flat, steady feel.
The steering is isolated, like nearly everything else on the road now. It’s accurate and weighted reasonably, but you cannot feel the front end bite down and dig in. It just goes where you point it with surprising ability but no feedback, an obvious concession to trouble the comfort-oriented driver. I think a slightly quicker steering ratio would improve the sense of nimbleness without outrunning the chassis’s capability, but that would run against the conservative origins of this car.
In these conditions, Motor Trend is correct, it corners much like that Audi. Where it differs is in putting power down through a turn. The Audi can claw through under substantial throttle, but the front wheel drive Avalon cannot. The steering wheel tugs, the inside wheel breaks traction, nannies scold, and you back off. Relevance, your Honor! No one drives that way!
Overruled! This is not just a snooty esoteric racetrack concern. Pulling assertively into traffic is a common necessity in my suburban warfare environment, and it’s not pleasant in a 300 hp front wheel drive car with an open differential. Neither is accelerating on wet pavement. This is a very competent chassis hindered by an economical drivetrain layout. AWD would do transformative things for the Avalon, including killing the gas mileage.
The power delivery is another incongruity. The Avalon is quick. It clears the quarter mile at 99 mph, about even with the BMW 430i and well ahead of the TLX. But there are character flaws. The 2GR V6 is an eager and energetic engine. It is joined to the responsive old 6 speed in the Lexus GS, but in the Avalon it’s contending with the contradictory newer 8 speed. I thought this transmission was just fine in the Camry, but apparently my expectations have changed because I didn’t like it in the Avalon. It’s very eager to downshift–too eager–but takes forever to complete the shift once it has initiated. If you so much as breathe on the accelerator, it immediately puts a hand up: “Wait! Lemme find you another gear.” It then shuffles over to a filing cabinet and starts rooting around: “Now where is it…aha! How about 2nd?”
Uh, thanks. But I would rather have stayed in 3rd and been allowed to use the ample midrange. I didn’t really want a downshift. But if you’re going to insist, do it faster. This aggressive downshifting means the engine oscillates between low and high rpm and is rarely in the nice quiet punchy midrange unless you constantly work the unrewarding paddle shifters.
Something is also very off about the engine noise. An unfortunate feature of the XSE is “digital sound enhancement” through the speakers and a poorly done intake resonator. At low revs, the V6 Camry and GS are largely silent, but the Avalon provides an audible waaahhh on every throttle application–even minor ones at low engine speeds. Cycling on and off the pedal in traffic results in an irritating wah…wah…wah, which ruins the otherwise tranquil nature of the car and smooth refinement of the V6. Wind it out and it improves, but there’s still an artificial discordant note to it. In contrast, winding out the Camry and GS is a pleasure; the former providing a muted mechanical growl and the latter a rising subtly aggressive crescendo through a much better designed intake resonator with no digital augmentation. It would have been better to leave the Avalon untouched rather than half-assing it as they did.
But then we get on the freeway and all is rosy again. The big V6 slings the car to 80 mph and it settles into a rapid, confident, comfortable cruise. The Avalon whispers down the interstate. There’s a ton of room in that backseat and the trunk is big. The large greenhouse and rear pillar windows provide good sightlines. With this refinement, noise control, power, chassis, and suspension, you could drive all day in comfort no matter the road type, and the irritating bits of interior cost cutting would be invisible until I had to use the Playskool door handles at the next rest area. I could frankly live with that given its many virtues and for a few minutes believed this was a dark horse candidate who might take this thing. I was pondering whether to make an offer.
However, the placid freeway jaunt allowed me to notice the little warning signs from my lower back. Thirty minutes into the test drive, and there’s something about the shape of the lower backrest and seat bottom cushion that is not quite agreeing with me. A vague lack of support. Granted, I’m a bit stiff from sitting in an office chair all day, but the 4Runner didn’t bug me on the way to the dealership and our Camry seats tend to ease that occasional stiffness rather than emphasize it. Hmm. I’ve made this mistake before and I’m not anxious to repeat it. An uncomfortable seat is a nightmare and my litmus test is whether the seat immediately impresses when I sit down. If I’m ambivalent, the impression tends to worsen the longer I’m in the car. That’s probably happening here.
I don’t make an offer even though this would have been a good deal. The Toyota dealership can’t move this car. It’s been here awhile and is now being aggressively marketed online for a claimed $7,000 below “retail value”, which is a fantasy world frequently concocted by this particular dealership. I bought my 4Runner new here and have had largely positive experiences, but their used car office subscribes to the strategy of “mark ‘em up from Day One, then mark ‘em down halfway back to reality and scream that it’s the sale of a lifetime.” If someone bites they’re a few grand ahead. Shenanigans aside, this Avalon is still a full three thousand below KBB. Why doesn’t anyone want it? The grill? It is indeed glorious and unapologetic. It could swallow a Fiat.
But it’s more than that. No one wants a big FWD car that isn’t a Lexus ES. Well, I might. Particularly when it’s done as well as this one and is marked down. Road trips would be dreamy in this car and it holds its own in the canyons. But the transmission behavior and seat discomfort are inescapable, and combined with FWD power delivery, this is not unseating the A5 or GS350. But damned if it doesn’t have me wanting to waste time checking out a low-mileage Maxima and ES350 FSport now.
I’d be really interested to see your take on a VW Arteon. It’s similar to this car: lots of space, some things are nice, but signs of cost cutting are obvious too (i.e. the same plastic door handles you describe here).
I didn’t realize they juiced up the Arteon in 2022, it’s really quick now. Legitimate A5 competitor. Not a single one within 100 miles of me right now, though.
I’m also thinking of an Arteon. You can get one for a pretty good price these days and it’s got that huge trunk space.
I went to the dealer website and looked at this car, that is good looking and a good price. I know CarFax is not always accurate, but it shows Owner #2 from Nov. 2022 to June 2023. Makes me wonder if someone bought it and decided it wasn’t for them, based on a lot of the demerits you cite in your excellent review.
235/40/19 is an aggressive tire for what is supposed to be a comfortable sedan.
The interior door handle issue is real to some people, including me. First impressions matter, and that’s a bad first impression. The door handle in my 740e is metal and counterbalanced, it is a joy to use. That would sound really weird/dumb to some people (including my wife) but I still notice it after 85,000+ miles of ownership.
It’s funny, isn’t it? My wife would give me the same strange look if I pointed this out. Life would be easier if I didn’t notice this sort of thing.
I must be very undemanding when it comes to car shopping, as I’ve never rated the quality of the door pulls when it comes to picking a car. As far as I’m concerned, they either open the door (and work) or they don’t.
Also, barring the interior of a Mitsubishi Mirage or like penalty box, talk of ‘too much hard plastic’ is an immediate eye-roller for me. Seat comfort, now that’s another matter, I do enough long trips where it is important.
A very interesting look at a car. Admittedly, one that I’d probably never consider, other than as a rental for a Virginia to Maine/Florida trip.
I’m admittedly being very picky here. I’ve never fixated on door pulls or other such miscellanea when I’ve needed a car. I’ll notice the difference right away, but it’s given no importance. The issue here is that this is an optional purchase.
If I just wanted something that works, that Camry will run for another decade. And still have a more expensive-feeling door operation than this Avalon.
I took the driver’s test in my mother’s ’96 Avalon. It was a white, mini-me Lexus that drove like butter. That first generation of Avalon was handsome, too, bore some resemblance to the elegant and stately Toyota Crown.
I think that first generation was the high water mark, oddly, as the Avalon got increasingly ugly and irrelevant with each remake. I forgot it existed until I read this article.
It would be hard to get excited by the generic looks of this car, which are made even uglier by that gaping fish maw that all Toyotas of the period suffered. If the driving experience was also “meh,” then it seems like car that’s destined to be forgotten, if it hasn’t been already.
It drives very well outside the transmission downshift behavior. It’s also very comfortable outside of a driver’s seat that doesn’t agree with me personally but might for others. It feels expensive and refined in most aspects of its operation. This is a very good car.
This is the only Avalon generation I’d personally consider. Every one before this was generic in my view. This one moved away from the traditional “Japanese Buick” and into something far more engaging without becoming uncomfortable.
It’s forgotten because of the move to crossovers, not because it isn’t an excellent car.
That fish maw is a real head slapper, what were they thinking? How could any competent Art College grad, or whoever designed this “thing”, allow their name to be attached to it? It’s downright undignified. But then again the absurd “Bucky Beaver” front-end of certain late BMWs is equally difficult to stomach. Some people’s taste is all in their mouth.
As for the Avalon, meh, just stick with the Camry, and as my old shop teacher would always say, “don’t leave it worry you”.
6 speed transmission misbehavior with the 3.5 V6? As a 3rd gen Tacoma owner, I thought that was a Toyota feature 😀. Someone mentioned the VW Arteon; wouldn’t Cadillac, Lincoln, even Nissan Maxima fit into this class of FWD sedans? As for low-profile tires on a car of this class, in my opinion anything under a 60 series (do people still use that term?) is ridiculous on a car driven on real roads with potholes and curbs. And from what I’ve read the extra wheel diameter of a 18 or 20” rim always exceeds any sidewall weight savings of the lower profile tires. Of course I’m old enough to remember when a Ferrari Daytona with 215/70-15’s was considered radical. On Borrani wire wheels of course.
How is my big comfortable sedan going to look sporty and mean without the giant wheels?
I will say I’m impressed at the ride quality they were able to deliver with such thin sidewalls. Same with the Kia Stinger and departed Ford Fusion. Our roads have their junky, rough sections but we rarely get the Midwestern and Northeastern style of deep pothole that will blow out a tire or crack a rim, so if you’re good with the ride quality and tire cost it isn’t a big issue.
The 6 speed in the tacoma is notorious, but the old 6 speeds in our Camry and the GS350 are quite responsive and match well with the engine. The new Direct Shift 8 speed in this Avalon is the one with the downshifts I dislike.
Ignoring what I find to be FUGHLY about this car (starting with that hideous fish maw), I would certainly agree that a seat that does not comfortably support one I$ a deal breaker.
When I purchased my 2020 Accord EX it took me a bit over 100 miles of driving and seat adjusting to find “THE” position with its 12 way power seat that worked! After that we did the deal, but not before. Fortunately most people do not have a pinched nerve in their lower spine so the seat is not usually quite as critical.
A very interesting and thorough review, btw! 🙂 DFO DFO
Thanks Dennis. Seat comfort is indeed crucial and it varies widely. Glad yours is working for you.
I love these reviews; I never read new/newish car reviews anymore because the writers aren’t half as good at the craft as you are. I rather hope you don’t find the right car to buy and keep this search going indefinitely. Of course the number of fish in your target fishbowl aren’t exactly numerous these days.
I remember a time when I savored every little finely crafted detail of my W124 300E, including the door handles and such. Going off to work in work in the morning was a treat. If you’re going to have to do that daily, might as well reward the senses a bit.
Now just about the only thing that really still turns me on is nature, and my vehicles are just appliances to get me there. The reward comes when I step out of the car or van, not when I get in.
Thanks Paul, it’s enjoyable and helps me hash out how I really feel about the vehicle. I’m finding that I do have some sympathy for new car reviewers–I cannot fathom having to write something about a vehicle you don’t really have an interest in, under a deadline, knowing you’ll soon have to write another piece about a similar car you don’t care about either. It would be sapping and unrewarding.
I agree with Paul – I enjoy reading your reviews even though new cars generally don’t interest me enough to spend a few minutes reading about one. But your writing styling is extremely compelling. Thanks for taking the time to write these.
I will miss the Avalon, though the sport versions are a bit too incongruous for me. One thing that would be a deal-breaker on this particular car is the 40-series tires. Roads around here have become poor enough that I wouldn’t feel comfortable driving a car with such low-profile tires.
I’ve been looking at used Cadillacs on and off for years, and aside from too much black in newer interiors and too many all black, the most annoying thing is to get desirable options and/or colors, you always get bigger wheels and less sidewall. They resurfaced my street this spring, but past experience tells me it will be back to washboard in a couple of years.
“Now just about the only thing that really still turns me on is nature, and my vehicles are just appliances to get me there. The reward comes when I step out of the car or van, not when I get in.”
Love this. Seems incongruous for a car buff but totally get it. Putting the focus on what’s really important.
Thank you for that good review.
We have an Avalon and my 16 year old loves it.
So happy she does because no one else in the family likes it.
My garage went over it and said that it is an excellent solid car.
We bought it for $7000 because the dealer couldn’t sell it to anyone.
We were just looking for cheap wheels, so we thought it would be a good choice.
It is, but it is the most boring car I have ever drove. Absolutely zero personality.
My wife doesn’t like it for the same reason, but said it is like driving an old lady’s car.
My son doesn’t like it because he said it is a Grandma’s car. (He’s correct – my 87 year old mother likes it very much.)
My other daughter doesn’t like it because it is no fun to drive.
But my 16 year old likes it and is very happy – so we got lucky.
I’d never get another one unless it is a cheap ride like this one was.
My wife’s brother has one of these, and early one in a high trim level. Uncle Bill is one of those guys whose used cars are always sought after – he is a stickler for keeping everything just right and is obsessive about keeping it clean. He is talking about getting rid of it, and I struggle. It is an “Uncle Bill Car”. But it’s also a Toyota Avalon, painted silver.
That, I must say, is the worst looking Avalon of the entire model run. Really don’t like that car. Cushy, fast ride for a 16yo though. My first car was a Cutlass Ciera, which was also a grandma float-boat with a big V6.
The one I tested is nothing like it, beyond having the same basic engine.
My hipster nephew had one of these and loved it, turning down the opportunity to “upgrade” to a 2010 Lincoln MKS. When it finally gave up the ghost 3 years ago, he landed a well maintained 2015 ES350. He just loves him some old lady cars.
The seat discomfort is also a great test/sign of whether you should pass. The seats in my 740e and every Mercedes I have ever had, didn’t hurt my back even after all day drives. I had a 2004 Dodge Ram 1500, base model with cloth seats, and they were super comfortable for long drives too. Honestly, the Ram was probably my favorite car seat I have ever owned. If they had been heated, they would have been sublime.
Completely agree, and easily overlooked on the test drive.
I ended up carving the foam bulges off my DTS’s drivers seat cushion. I knew it felt weird, but I didn’t think it would bother me that much. Who wants a bulge under half their thighs? The cooling mechanism made my Deville’s seats pretty hard, but at least they were wide and flat.
I’ve never sat in a Japanese car whose front head restraints didn’t hit me in the back or neck even when extended.
I had forgotten that these existed. I completely get the door handle thing. Once you notice a little detail like that, you never un-notice it. I still remember the joy I got in closing the door of my 63 Cadillac, every time I grabbed that beautiful chrome-plated door pull that felt like it must have weighed 15 pounds. And the irritation every time I opened the door of my 89 Cadillac Brougham with the same handle from a hundred other lesser GM cars.
Engine sound “enhancements” through the sound system really irritate me. Anyone who wants to listen to the engine wants to listen to the engine.
I am of the opinion that if the mechanism for the opening of the door achieves its intended purpose upon repeated application – it is, after all, indispensable to one’s release from the interior – then it has met the criterion of its function. By way of explanation, I have owned French vehicles.
That said, and rather unfortunately, I understand what bothers you (though I’ll admit the non-fit you see in the generic handle wouldn’t get my notice). Perhaps it was the godawful tiny and flimsy-but-heavy-to-use interior handles on ’70’s VW products that have stuck in the mind. Indeed, into the ’80’s: big, rock-like Vanagon, purring silent motor, classy suspension, interior door handles off a kit car.
We’re all mad, of course. Just to be clear, 95% of folk just get out of a car.
Rather like Paul N, I kind-of hope you don’t ever find what you’re looking for. These tests are always a standard well above the professional rot elsewhere. You’re a good deal fussier – perhaps, more politely, “more acute” – than I’d ever be, but such attitude shows up genuine flaws I’d not see till too late.
“We’re all mad, of course”
Indeed! It’s an illness. Sometimes an entertaining one, but an illness nonetheless. And it’s OK to call me fussy here. Acute is a more respectable sounding term, but at its core, it is decadent fussiness.
I had wondered for some time about your CC username. No more; I’m reading a rather obscure but fascinating book “How To Read Water” that I found in Tucson recently in a “little free library”, and in it is a description of the organic process that create the distinctive smell the emits from long-dry ground after the rain hits it; that smell is called petrichor.
Paul, that is indeed the word I chose for my username. No particular reason for it, like you I had finally stumbled on the term for the previously-nameless phenomenon I knew quite well from living and hiking in the desert. Learned it right before I created the cc account and figured, well, that’ll work.
I’m with you on the Avalon. I bought another of Toyota’s mid-premium cars, a 2021 Venza Limited. The son-of-Lexus styling and fuel economy were impressive; the NVH and materials were not. Ultimately, it cost too much for what it was, which was a prettier, less-practical RAV4 Hybrid. I sold it pretty quickly.
I think it would absolutely be worth you testing out a current-generation ES, and not just the F Sport. Try and find an Ultra Luxury, too. I’ve had them as loaners a few times and thought they were remarkably quiet and easy to live with.
They’re also pretty safe if you hit a deer in one at 70 MPH, as I did last month.
Yes, the flagship offering of a mainstream manufacturer seems like a difficult market niche to play in. Not much wiggle room in price and features without going too far up or down, so you end up with intentional cutbacks in noticeable areas.
Was your ES loaner the V6 or hybrid? I’ve found the 2.5 hybrid to be noisier than I’d like for a luxury product and I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on it if you’ve driven it.
That deer did quite a number on the ES, glad you didn’t get hurt.
Thank you for the review of the Avalon! I’m hankering getting one – and noting that some of the switchgear and parts look a bit cheap. The other major comparable is the ES – which has a lot of the virtues with a more posh interior. However, the big thing with the ES, and practically a deal breaker, is that the rear seat doesn’t fold down to extend the trunk or boot capacity. The Avalon finally features a foldable split rear seat after not having one for most of its generations.
How would you finesse or tradeoff this dilemma?
Silverkris, honestly I’d test drive both and see what speaks to you in person. I groused about a few of the cheaper touches in the Avalon but there are also some areas nicer than the price suggests and if I had liked the seats better I may have gone for it because it does so many other things well. The Limited trim is even nicer and doesn’t have the intake resonator.
With my family, the split fold seat doesn’t help much in practice. There’s 4 of us, so that seatback is staying in place regardless of what I’m trying to carry. Our 4runner has the center 20% seatback that folds down for skis, minor lumber runs, carpets, christmas trees, etc while still seating 4. So we use that!