The Great American Diesel Epoch (1975 – 1986) included an astonishing array of cars and trucks that are starting to disappear from the streets as well as our memories. One of the rarer ones was Dodge’s second (more on the first below) foray into diesels in their light trucks, a dozen years before the big Cummins 6BT finally found a long-term home in them. In 1978, Dodge’s partnership with Mitsubishi resulted in the 6DR5 diesel being available in the 1978 (and possibly 1979) D100, D200, and (technically) the B-series van. Good luck finding one of those vans.
At the time, the idea of a diesel Dodge van was rather intriguing to me. I should have ordered one, because it might be the only one on the planet. Although some 2,835 diesel pickups were known to be built, I can’t find any record of anyone actually owning one of the vans. Even finding good info and pics of one of the diesel pickups is hard; these very nice ones are courtesy of Marc Lerner, posted at nissandiesel.dyndns.org.
Why didn’t it sell better? How about the fact that it made 105 hp (and 163 ft. lbs of torque, less than the slant six)? This was a naturally-aspirated unit, like so many in the first half of the Great Diesel Epoch. There is talk of folks retrofitting them with turbos, but who knows if any are still intact. Anyway, owners of them say they will trundle along at sixty or so, and get a solid 20 mpg doing it. Needless to say, acceleration is very leisurely. Transmission was a choice of a four-speed stick or A727 Loadflite.
I may have found some nice shots of the Dodgubishi, but I can’t find anything on the diesel van; no brochure, no forum threads, nothing. Except that it was announced, and allpar makes mention of it too.
Just to make the pre-Cummins Dodge diesel history lesson complete, here’s a shot of a Perkins six cylinder that was available as an option on the 1962 D-Series pickup. Perkins had been available on export-only Dodges for some years, including some sedans, but in 1962, it was listed as an option for US buyers too. Since only some 1,000 were sold, it quickly dropped off the radar again. It took three tries for Dodge to score with a diesel truck, but that one was a home run.
I learn something new everyday about cars on this site.
Ditto. Among the people I know I know more about cars than anybody. It’s great to come here and never fail to learn something new, not just from the posts, but also from the comments.
+1
I just missed shooting one of the 70s Diesel Dodge pickups. I had seen an old green late 70s Dodge pickup sitting at a particular house that I passed regularly. One day it was gone, and shortly another CC-worthy vehicle showed up. The owner happened to be outside and allowed me to photograph his vehicle (which I have not yet written up).
I mentioned that I had thought of stopping and photographing his pickup, and it was then that he told me that it was one of the few with a Mitsu diesel and that he had just sold it. I had never even remembered that those were made, and he told me that I had a lot of company. I missed it by about 3 weeks, and have not seen it since.
Wow; I can only vaguely remember seeing one or two ages ago with that Diesel Power badge. My congratulations as well as condolences. You’re not likely to find another.
About 2 years ago I did see a ’78 Dodge with the Mitsu diesel for sale on ebay. It was out west, likely Wyoming. I knew it was rare; now I know how rare.
Am I seeing dual oil filters?
Likely, it is not uncommon for diesel engines to have two, many times one is a conventional full flow unit and the other a by-pass style filter with lower micron rating. Other times it’s just two full flow.
It is interesting that they chose to use a Mitsu unit since Chrysler was the US distributor for Nissan Diesel engines which is why the unit in the Scout is technically the CN-33, for Chrysler Nissan. Though it is best known as the SD-33. Granted it was a little under powered in the Scout but there was the CN-33T which developed 101 HP in the Scout. I’ve read that Chrysler somehow helped in the development of the engines and were somehow involved in the production of the engines that were painted yellow when they left the factory. The 4cyl version, the SD-22 is what powered the Datsun/Nissan diesel pickups, and was under consideration for the 1981 Scout II.
I always thought that Dodge used the Nissan diesel as well. As others have said, you learn something new every day here.
I’ve seen pics that someone posted online of an old Chrysler (1968 I think) they found in the wreckers that had a Nissan diesel transplanted into it.
I’d heard in the day about the Diesel Dodge pickup, but from that era the only vehicle similar I ever saw was a Scout II at a new car show (San Francisco) loaded to the gills with the Chrysler-Nissan unit.
Diesel hp is virtually irrelevant torque is where its at
No its not. The torque curve of a diesel may be fatter low down, which may affect gearing issues and shift points, but ultimately, horsepower is the final word on how much power an engine makes.
A 220hp 2 liter Honda S2000 engine mounted in a semi truck and a 220 hp 16 liter Cummins diesel (from the 60s) are both capable of pulling the same semi-truck down the road (or up a hill) at exactly the same rate. It would just take very different gearing, and more gears (for the Honda).
Of course, the Honda might not last as long, but that’s a different issue.
There is a good reason large trucks engines are rated first (and most importantly) in how much horsepower they make. It determines how much power what they’re capable of producing.
An engine that makes lots of torque but not much hp will require less shifting, but ultimately, its hp rating will determine how fast it can go, and how much load it can pull, and at what grade.
BTW, that Mitsu diesel six made 163 ft. lbs of torque, less than the 225 slant six, which made 170 ft. lbs. Keep in mind that it did not have a turbo.
Torque is a force, HP is the rate of application of that force. Torque can be multiplied by gear reduction but HP cannot. HP is what determines how fast you can do work.
On a more technical level, horsepower = torque x RPM / 5252
You can make the same peak horsepower by increasing torque or by increasing RPM. The former favors a larger engine or super/turbocharging, while the latter favors a small engine with lightweight internals.
The old sayings “There is no replacement for displacement” and “Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races” are saying the same thing: torque is king. One big reason is that you’re not accelerating if you’re shifting, and a small high-revving engine with a peaky torque curve needs to do lots of shifting to stay in its useable torque band.
Any way you slice it though, that Mitsu engine seems rather marginal for a fullsize pickup. If it had mild gears it would probably do okay on the highway, but load capacity would suffer, and you’d want a larger transmission cooler for that 727. Today an overdrive transmission could be retrofitted to get the best of both options. Our ’78 Olds diesel is rated 120hp and 220ft.lb. There’s not much acceleration left when you’re on highway at 70MPH, but it has tons of torque at launch, even with the mild gearing it has. The car could probably do well with an overdrive gear.
An interesting aside:Look at the hp and torque curve graph for any engine. If they on the same scale and the numbers are not doctored, the horsepower and torque curves will cross at 5252 RPM.
An interesting aside:Look at the hp and torque curve graph for any engine. If they on the same scale and the numbers are not doctored, the horsepower and torque curves will cross at 5252 RPM.
If the engine can turn that fast.
That of course is why most diesels show such low HP numbers vs the torque numbers. If you can’t spin it any faster than 3-4000 rpm you just cant make that big of an HP number.
The old sayings “There is no replacement for displacement” and “Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races” are saying the same thing: torque is king. One big reason is that you’re not accelerating if you’re shifting, and a small high-revving engine with a peaky torque curve needs to do lots of shifting to stay in its useable torque band.
May work in theory, doesn’t work in real life. Don’t you remember when <a href="http://www.curbsideclassic.com/blog/curbside-drama-billy-takes-his-nova-to-the-races/"Billy took his Nova to the races? He made the same “less gears” argument – hell, it’s common sense! – and look how poorly that worked out for him.
Another interesting – and undoubtedly rare – diesel was the Nissan conversions done with Valiants, Mavericks and Novas in the early- to mid-1970s.
I’ve never actually seen one, and only know about them from reading old issues of Popular Science on Google Books: http://books.google.com/books?id=BQEMDqBjzHwC&pg=PA16&dq=Nissan+diesel+maverick+nova&hl=en&sa=X&ei=M8CzUOuPHumwyQG4kICQAw&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false.
Thanks for the link, very interesting. I’m surprised that Chrysler had a set up to put their AT behind the CN33 at that point, especially for the Valiant. The engien was mainly sold for use in forklifts, stationary applications and for marine use, none of which would normally use an automotive style AT.
The Scouts with the CN33 that were equipped with an automatic trans used a 727 with the big block Mopar flywheel housing pattern. Instead of the SAE #4 flywheel housing the engine was normally shipped with and used in 4sp Scouts. Since IH only used the 727, even behind the AMC 6 and IH 4 I understand why they wanted the 727 but if Chrysler had a small block pattern flywheel housing why didn’t they ship the Scout ones like that?
It does make we wonder if the engineers at IH read that article when they were considering a diesel. The records do show that they tested a number of other engines before deciding on the CN unit. Buying it from Chrysler did make for a single supplier for engines and automatics.
IIRC perkins and chrysler go back a long way. I seem to remember plymouths with diesel engines that saw duty in Britain after the war. Don’t think it was all after market stuff. Too lazy to google right now.
I’m guessing that this pickup might weigh around the same 4100lb as my uncle’s HJ75 Landcruiser pickup, which has similar power and a bit more torque (~177lb-ft) from the 4.0 n/a diesel. With a 5 speed gearbox it has enough power for what it is, you could even say it is a safety feature – when it is heavily loaded (6700lb GVM and 12200lb GCM) you can’t go fast! Newer diesels make a lot more power and torque but they are not as simple and understressed as these old mechanical indirect-injection diesels.
Interesting, I had no idea this existed either. If there were ~2,500 pickups with the option I bet there had to be at least a few vans with it as well. The few parts sites I checked just now did show it as an available engine, but that doesn’t necessarily mean anything…
I’m always intrigued by automotive vaporware and phantom engines. The internet has blown my mind on that front a few times with stuff I was convinced didn’t exist. Still waiting to find an elusive 1st generation US Ford Escort Turbo GT, though!
that is definitely a rare find. Good stuff
Here is another one with quite a bit of detailed information including the sales contract from summer of 1979 for a price of $11,087. This one has AC, Loadflite 727 AT, PS and even tilt wheel! It’s geared quite tallish although it will smoothly (almost escaping perception) into drive at an indicated 20mph or less.
Click on “OF” to see a photoalbum with more detailed pix of these than I’ve seen anywhere.
yes own and drive one of these every day I am the 2 nd owner and it is a78 d-200 with 727 auto 4.10 gears dana 60 166000 miles pretty much all ariginal 2 wheel drive 3/4 ton singel cab 8 foot bed. While it is a bit under powered it is vary usabel easy to work on and future upgrades will improve it.